Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling - SI and SB
Tump, As luck would have it, all my contact business cards are at my home office - 300 miles away from where I am at the moment. I would use the [EMAIL PROTECTED] general address until I get back and dig up a better one. We are sending a few guys over to the factory in Germany to further push our point of view, :-) Matt T Tump [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Matt, put their address here, so we ALL can forward this message to the right folks @ SMA! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Tritt Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 7:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling - SI and SB Geoff, SMA suggests using an OutBack Autoformer. Yes, I know it sounds weird to suggest using a competitors product, but this is not the only weirdness when using the 60 Hz SI system! They also suggest using the Flexware DC breaker box, as there is really nothing they make that accomplishes the same thing, at such a low cost. Low is subjective, I suppose. I asked a pair of the SMA engineers from Germany about the possibility of coming out with a 240 60 Hz version (pleaded is more like it) to help the long suffering American AE sector, and the answer was just what has been suggested by our Scottish bretheren: If the market is large enough to warrant the UL listing procedure, and if the market will bear a slightly higher price tag, they will do it. I would recommned that each and every one of us that would like to have the option of somehting as great as this system has to offer, PLEASE email, phone and write to SMA Amerika (ho ho ho) to express your wishes. It can't hurt! Matt T Geoff Greenfield wrote: Matt- What is your prefered/recomended way to address the 240 VAC SB series (we typically dont want to use a bunch of 700s or 1800s) and the 120 VAC SI series? We used a pair of Outback PSX-240s but that was extra work/cost. Other (larger) transformers? Torroid coil? Eaton? I'm surprised SMA doesnt have a nice interface worked out for the North American market... Also wrenches... if you go down this route, invest the time ahead of time on learning/preping for the set up etc for SI in this application. It is not out of the box ready to go, but involves a software upgrade, laptops and the right patch cord (an issue if you are 5 hours away...). For a brighter energy future, Geoff Greenfield Founder and CEO Third Sun Solar Wind Power Ltd. 340 West State Street, Unit 25 Athens, OH 45701 740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548 www.Third-Sun.com Clean Energy - Expertly Installed - Tump mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt, I have long been interested in installing the SMA SI SBs but I have a VERY tough time selling $9ks worth of inverters, just to get things started. In the system below I would not of hesitated in installing the SMA SI SB! I too agree that w/this type of scenario described below, I would have given quite a bit of thought to using the SMAs. Can't beat the battery charging, no charge controllers expandability. Please if there is someone out there that has had experience w/ the SMA SI SB let us know if it is all that it is cracked up to be! With passport in hand, I offer my help if someone out there has a large system like this, that will be using the SI SB/WB type of set up. TUMP -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Tritt Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 9:21 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling I am curious as to why OutBacks were used for this system instead of using SunnyIslands and SunnyBoys? From what I can tell about the SI system, virtually no aspect of battery charging, auto gen-start/stop, and interactive inverter control has been overlooked - or remains to be engineered in the field by the installer. Because SunnyIslands have the ability to talk to Sunny (or Windy)Boys, excess energy is taken care of by integrated load shedding - no need for multiple relays, dumpoads and voltage sensors. :-) The only limitation to these systems (and only in 60 Hz land) is a maximum of 20 kW single, and 15 kW three phase per autonomous load. I really like the flexibility of being able to connect all AC inputs on the same line, as well as having the option to do direct battery charging from a DC source (as long as you use a shunt to measure current). I know this doesn't answer your questions, but for similar applications in the future it would be good to take a close look at the SunnyIsland system. They're cool. Matt T Mark Dickson wrote: Hello Wrenches, On the heels of the previous thread: We just got finished installing a system that utilizes an Outback Quad stack and a 5.2kW array coupled to the AC panel via a Fronius IG5100--due to a long home-run
Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling
Our customers already had the Outback gen-verter system in place from few years ago--we could not justify replacing them. i have looked into the Sunny Islands though, and they seem like a good way to go in the future. As an aside, I had originally planned on a Sunnyboy grid tie inverter instead of the Fronius, but it did not configure well with the new low-voltage Evergreen ESA's. Mark Dickson Oasis Montana Inc. 877-627-4768 toll-free 406-777-4309 (0830 fax) www.oasismontana.com www.grid-tie.com www.PVsolarpumps.com From: Matt Tritt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:22 PM To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling I am curious as to why OutBacks were used for this system instead of using SunnyIslands and SunnyBoys? From what I can tell about the SI system, virtually no aspect of battery charging, auto gen-start/stop, and interactive inverter control has been overlooked - or remains to be engineered in the field by the installer. Because SunnyIslands have the ability to talk to Sunny (or Windy)Boys, excess energy is taken care of by integrated load shedding - no need for multiple relays, dumpoads and voltage sensors. :-) The only limitation to these systems (and only in 60 Hz land) is a maximum of 20 kW single, and 15 kW three phase per autonomous load. I really like the flexibility of being able to connect all AC inputs on the same line, as well as having the option to do direct battery charging from a DC source (as long as you use a shunt to measure current). I know this doesn't answer your questions, but for similar applications in the future it would be good to take a close look at the SunnyIsland system. They're cool. Matt T Mark Dickson wrote: Hello Wrenches, On the heels of the previous thread: We just got finished installing a system that utilizes an Outback Quad stack and a 5.2kW array coupled to the AC panel via a Fronius IG5100--due to a long home-run. The VFX's are wired into the home in their traditional manner, providing the grid for the Fronius. As the solar comes in, excess power not used in the home back feeds the batteries through the VFX's. I have a series of relays operating dump loads and finally a power cut-off for when the batteries reach critical level. We installed the system yesterday and turned it on for a test run (then back off to power it up in 2009 for the ITC's)-it worked great! I have a couple questions for you all: Seems how we are back feeding the inverters and forfeiting their charge control, where would you set the dump loads to kick on? For now I have them set at: 1st load to kick on at float voltages, 2nd to kick on at bulk voltages and 3rd to kick the solar power off at the EQ voltages. Does this make sense? The bank is made up of Rolls 4ks-25ps batteries. Following a recent discussion on the Wrenches list with a similar system: Do I need to worry about back feeding the generator if it is runnin in the morning when the sun comes up? Do I need a relay that will shut it down when solar comes on line? I plan on setting the Absorb and Float set times to a miimum. Would you recommend this? Thanks for your input! Mark Dickson Oasis Montana Inc. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1794 - Release Date: 11/17/2008 8:48 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling - SI and SB
Hey Matt, put their address here, so we ALL can forward this message to the right folks @ SMA! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Tritt Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 7:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling - SI and SB Geoff, SMA suggests using an OutBack Autoformer. Yes, I know it sounds weird to suggest using a competitors product, but this is not the only weirdness when using the 60 Hz SI system! They also suggest using the Flexware DC breaker box, as there is really nothing they make that accomplishes the same thing, at such a low cost. Low is subjective, I suppose. I asked a pair of the SMA engineers from Germany about the possibility of coming out with a 240 60 Hz version (pleaded is more like it) to help the long suffering American AE sector, and the answer was just what has been suggested by our Scottish bretheren: If the market is large enough to warrant the UL listing procedure, and if the market will bear a slightly higher price tag, they will do it. I would recommned that each and every one of us that would like to have the option of somehting as great as this system has to offer, PLEASE email, phone and write to SMA Amerika (ho ho ho) to express your wishes. It can't hurt! Matt T Geoff Greenfield wrote: Matt- What is your prefered/recomended way to address the 240 VAC SB series (we typically dont want to use a bunch of 700s or 1800s) and the 120 VAC SI series? We used a pair of Outback PSX-240s but that was extra work/cost. Other (larger) transformers? Torroid coil? Eaton? I'm surprised SMA doesnt have a nice interface worked out for the North American market... Also wrenches... if you go down this route, invest the time ahead of time on learning/preping for the set up etc for SI in this application. It is not out of the box ready to go, but involves a software upgrade, laptops and the right patch cord (an issue if you are 5 hours away...). For a brighter energy future, Geoff Greenfield Founder and CEO Third Sun Solar Wind Power Ltd. 340 West State Street, Unit 25 Athens, OH 45701 740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548 www.Third-Sun.com Clean Energy - Expertly Installed - Tump mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt, I have long been interested in installing the SMA SI SBs but I have a VERY tough time selling $9ks worth of inverters, just to get things started. In the system below I would not of hesitated in installing the SMA SI SB! I too agree that w/this type of scenario described below, I would have given quite a bit of thought to using the SMAs. Can't beat the battery charging, no charge controllers expandability. Please if there is someone out there that has had experience w/ the SMA SI SB let us know if it is all that it is cracked up to be! With passport in hand, I offer my help if someone out there has a large system like this, that will be using the SI SB/WB type of set up. TUMP -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Tritt Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 9:21 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling I am curious as to why OutBacks were used for this system instead of using SunnyIslands and SunnyBoys? From what I can tell about the SI system, virtually no aspect of battery charging, auto gen-start/stop, and interactive inverter control has been overlooked - or remains to be engineered in the field by the installer. Because SunnyIslands have the ability to talk to Sunny (or Windy)Boys, excess energy is taken care of by integrated load shedding - no need for multiple relays, dumpoads and voltage sensors. :-) The only limitation to these systems (and only in 60 Hz land) is a maximum of 20 kW single, and 15 kW three phase per autonomous load. I really like the flexibility of being able to connect all AC inputs on the same line, as well as having the option to do direct battery charging from a DC source (as long as you use a shunt to measure current). I know this doesn't answer your questions, but for similar applications in the future it would be good to take a close look at the SunnyIsland system. They're cool. Matt T Mark Dickson wrote: Hello Wrenches, On the heels of the previous thread: We just got finished installing a system that utilizes an Outback Quad stack and a 5.2kW array coupled to the AC panel via a Fronius IG5100--due to a long home-run. The VFX's are wired into the home in their traditional manner, providing the grid for the Fronius. As the solar comes in, excess power not used in the home back feeds the batteries through the VFX's. I have a series of relays operating dump loads and finally a power cut-off for when the batteries reach critical level. We installed the system yesterday and turned it on for a test run (then back off to power it up in 2009 for the ITC's)-it worked great! I have a couple questions
Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling - SI and SB
Hi Todd, We are looking into the new East Penn Deka Unigy ll sealed batteries. They seem to be a good deal less money than the GNB’s. Anyone have any experience with these? I agree with you if we are to use a smaller group 27/31 size AGM battery but these big industrial cells should go the distance if they work as advertised. Do you have any experience with the Unigy ll batteries? Sincerely, Chris Worcester NABCEP Certified PV Installer Phone: 530-582-4503 Fax: 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com http://www.solarwindworks.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Proven Energy Solutions From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 9:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling - SI and SB Maintenance free might mean replacing them after about 5 or 6 years rather than 15 to 20. Todd On Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:41pm, Chris Worcester [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I will look at these for other jobs, our client wants maintenance free on this one though. Sincerely, Chris Worcester NABCEP Certified PV Installer Phone: 530-582-4503 Fax: 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com http://www.solarwindworks.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Proven Energy Solutions ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling - SI and SB
HI Chris, I've been give some glowing reports from a company that uses them for telecomm sites, many in very hostile environments and they seem to hold up really well, and yes the price point is very good. I've got a 3100amphr at 48v going in off grid in Baja next year and the Unigy II are what I'm using. Hope this helps, jay peltz power On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:25 AM, Chris Worcester wrote: Hi Todd, We are looking into the new East Penn Deka Unigy ll sealed batteries. They seem to be a good deal less money than the GNB’s. Anyone have any experience with these? I agree with you if we are to use a smaller group 27/31 size AGM battery but these big industrial cells should go the distance if they work as advertised. Do you have any experience with the Unigy ll batteries? Sincerely, Chris Worcester NABCEP Certified PV Installer Phone: 530-582-4503 Fax: 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Proven Energy Solutions From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 9:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling - SI and SB Maintenance free might mean replacing them after about 5 or 6 years rather than 15 to 20. Todd On Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:41pm, Chris Worcester [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I will look at these for other jobs, our client wants maintenance free on this one though. Sincerely, Chris Worcester NABCEP Certified PV Installer Phone: 530-582-4503 Fax: 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Proven Energy Solutions ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling
Matt, I have long been interested in installing the SMA SI SBs but I have a VERY tough time selling $9ks worth of inverters, just to get things started. In the system below I would not of hesitated in installing the SMA SI SB! I too agree that w/this type of scenario described below, I would have given quite a bit of thought to using the SMAs. Can't beat the battery charging, no charge controllers expandability. Please if there is someone out there that has had experience w/ the SMA SI SB let us know if it is all that it is cracked up to be! With passport in hand, I offer my help if someone out there has a large system like this, that will be using the SI SB/WB type of set up. TUMP -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Tritt Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 9:21 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling I am curious as to why OutBacks were used for this system instead of using SunnyIslands and SunnyBoys? From what I can tell about the SI system, virtually no aspect of battery charging, auto gen-start/stop, and interactive inverter control has been overlooked - or remains to be engineered in the field by the installer. Because SunnyIslands have the ability to talk to Sunny (or Windy)Boys, excess energy is taken care of by integrated load shedding - no need for multiple relays, dumpoads and voltage sensors. :-) The only limitation to these systems (and only in 60 Hz land) is a maximum of 20 kW single, and 15 kW three phase per autonomous load. I really like the flexibility of being able to connect all AC inputs on the same line, as well as having the option to do direct battery charging from a DC source (as long as you use a shunt to measure current). I know this doesn't answer your questions, but for similar applications in the future it would be good to take a close look at the SunnyIsland system. They're cool. Matt T Mark Dickson wrote: Hello Wrenches, On the heels of the previous thread: We just got finished installing a system that utilizes an Outback Quad stack and a 5.2kW array coupled to the AC panel via a Fronius IG5100--due to a long home-run. The VFX's are wired into the home in their traditional manner, providing the grid for the Fronius. As the solar comes in, excess power not used in the home back feeds the batteries through the VFX's. I have a series of relays operating dump loads and finally a power cut-off for when the batteries reach critical level. We installed the system yesterday and turned it on for a test run (then back off to power it up in 2009 for the ITC's)-it worked great! I have a couple questions for you all: * Seems how we are back feeding the inverters and forfeiting their charge control, where would you set the dump loads to kick on? * For now I have them set at: 1st load to kick on at float voltages, 2nd to kick on at bulk voltages and 3rd to kick the solar power off at the EQ voltages. Does this make sense? The bank is made up of Rolls 4ks-25ps batteries. * Following a recent discussion on the Wrenches list with a similar system: Do I need to worry about back feeding the generator if it is runnin in the morning when the sun comes up? Do I need a relay that will shut it down when solar comes on line? * I plan on setting the Absorb and Float set times to a miimum. Would you recommend this? Thanks for your input! Mark Dickson Oasis Montana Inc. _ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _ Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1794 - Release Date: 11/17/2008 8:48 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling - SI and SB
Matt- What is your prefered/recomended way to address the 240 VAC SB series (we typically dont want to use a bunch of 700s or 1800s) and the 120 VAC SI series? We used a pair of Outback PSX-240s but that was extra work/cost. Other (larger) transformers? Torroid coil? Eaton? I'm surprised SMA doesnt have a nice interface worked out for the North American market... Also wrenches... if you go down this route, invest the time ahead of time on learning/preping for the set up etc for SI in this application. It is not out of the box ready to go, but involves a software upgrade, laptops and the right patch cord (an issue if you are 5 hours away...). For a brighter energy future, Geoff Greenfield Founder and CEO Third Sun Solar Wind Power Ltd. 340 West State Street, Unit 25 Athens, OH 45701 740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548 www.Third-Sun.com Clean Energy - Expertly Installed - Tump [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt, I have long been interested in installing the SMA SI SBs but I have a VERY tough time selling $9ks worth of inverters, just to get things started. In the system below I would not of hesitated in installing the SMA SI SB! I too agree that w/this type of scenario described below, I would have given quite a bit of thought to using the SMAs. Can't beat the battery charging, no charge controllers expandability. Please if there is someone out there that has had experience w/ the SMA SI SB let us know if it is all that it is cracked up to be! With passport in hand, I offer my help if someone out there has a large system like this, that will be using the SI SB/WB type of set up. TUMP -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Tritt Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 9:21 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling I am curious as to why OutBacks were used for this system instead of using SunnyIslands and SunnyBoys? From what I can tell about the SI system, virtually no aspect of battery charging, auto gen-start/stop, and interactive inverter control has been overlooked - or remains to be engineered in the field by the installer. Because SunnyIslands have the ability to talk to Sunny (or Windy)Boys, excess energy is taken care of by integrated load shedding - no need for multiple relays, dumpoads and voltage sensors. :-) The only limitation to these systems (and only in 60 Hz land) is a maximum of 20 kW single, and 15 kW three phase per autonomous load. I really like the flexibility of being able to connect all AC inputs on the same line, as well as having the option to do direct battery charging from a DC source (as long as you use a shunt to measure current). I know this doesn't answer your questions, but for similar applications in the future it would be good to take a close look at the SunnyIsland system. They're cool. Matt T Mark Dickson wrote: Hello Wrenches, On the heels of the previous thread: We just got finished installing a system that utilizes an Outback Quad stack and a 5.2kW array coupled to the AC panel via a Fronius IG5100--due to a long home-run. The VFX’s are wired into the home in their traditional manner, providing the “grid” for the Fronius. As the solar comes in, excess power not used in the home back feeds the batteries through the VFX’s. I have a series of relays operating dump loads and finally a power cut-off for when the batteries reach critical level. We installed the system yesterday and turned it on for a test run (then back off to power it up in 2009 for the ITC’s)—it worked great! I have a couple questions for you all: • Seems how we are back feeding the inverters and forfeiting their charge control, where would you set the dump loads to kick on? • For now I have them set at: 1 st load to kick on at float voltages, 2 nd to kick on at bulk voltages and 3 rd to kick the solar power off at the EQ voltages. Does this make sense? The bank is made up of Rolls 4ks-25ps batteries. • Following a recent discussion on the Wrenches list with a similar system: Do I need to worry about back feeding the generator if it is runnin in the morning when the sun comes up? Do I need a relay that will shut it down when solar comes on line? • I plan on setting the Absorb and Float set times to a miimum. Would you recommend this? Thanks for your input! Mark Dickson Oasis Montana Inc. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked
Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling - SI and SB
Hi Geoff, Nice heads up on the SI needing to be “set up” prior to commissioning. We are getting closer to a similar design ourselves. We have a SB7000US being fed by 36 Sanyo Hit Power 200’s on the drawing board that we are going to feed into a grid tie inverter system. Right now I am convinced that the SI5048’s will need to be paired up in order to feed this amount of current back through them to the grid if there aren’t any loads on in the residence, unless someone can let me know that this is not the case. I envision each SI requiring its own manual transfer switch between it and the grid, feeding the dedicated loads AC subpanel in case we need to pull it off the wall for servicing. Is this typical in your designs? Rethinking this if one SI is down for repairs the entire AC sub panel will need to be fed by the grid so there is a balanced 240VAC signal to it. We are looking into the new East Penn Deka Unigy ll sealed batteries. They seem to be a good deal less money than the GNB’s. Anyone have any experience with these? With two SI5048’s sucking on this battery bank there is the possibility of some serious current transfer taking place. We are proposing an absolute minimum battery size that can go full load draw down for three hours, to 50% DOD, my inclination is to make this 6 hours. At 3 hours we would need a 500 amp hour battery. What are others doing about battery sizing in this scenario? (our client hasn’t revealed what loads he wants to back up unfortunately so we are approaching this in this manner) Right now we are still in the dark as to whether or not there will be a gen set involved. I do know a WebBox will be interfaced between the SI’s and the SB’s. Thanks for the continuing discussion on this thread and Happy Thanksgiving to one and all. Sincerely, Chris Worcester NABCEP Certified PV Installer Phone: 530-582-4503 Fax: 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com http://www.solarwindworks.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Proven Energy Solutions From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoff Greenfield Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 7:28 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling - SI and SB Matt- What is your prefered/recomended way to address the 240 VAC SB series (we typically dont want to use a bunch of 700s or 1800s) and the 120 VAC SI series? We used a pair of Outback PSX-240s but that was extra work/cost. Other (larger) transformers? Torroid coil? Eaton? I'm surprised SMA doesnt have a nice interface worked out for the North American market... Also wrenches... if you go down this route, invest the time ahead of time on learning/preping for the set up etc for SI in this application. It is not out of the box ready to go, but involves a software upgrade, laptops and the right patch cord (an issue if you are 5 hours away...). For a brighter energy future, Geoff Greenfield Founder and CEO Third Sun Solar Wind Power Ltd. 340 West State Street, Unit 25 Athens, OH 45701 740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548 www.Third-Sun.com Clean Energy - Expertly Installed - Tump [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt, I have long been interested in installing the SMA SI SBs but I have a VERY tough time selling $9ks worth of inverters, just to get things started. In the system below I would not of hesitated in installing the SMA SI SB! I too agree that w/this type of scenario described below, I would have given quite a bit of thought to using the SMAs. Can't beat the battery charging, no charge controllers expandability. Please if there is someone out there that has had experience w/ the SMA SI SB let us know if it is all that it is cracked up to be! With passport in hand, I offer my help if someone out there has a large system like this, that will be using the SI SB/WB type of set up. TUMP -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Tritt Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 9:21 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling I am curious as to why OutBacks were used for this system instead of using SunnyIslands and SunnyBoys? From what I can tell about the SI system, virtually no aspect of battery charging, auto gen-start/stop, and interactive inverter control has been overlooked - or remains to be engineered in the field by the installer. Because SunnyIslands have the ability to talk to Sunny (or Windy)Boys, excess energy is taken care of by integrated load shedding - no need for multiple relays, dumpoads and voltage sensors. :-) The only limitation to these systems (and only in 60 Hz land) is a maximum of 20 kW single, and 15 kW three phase per autonomous load. I really like the flexibility of being able to connect all AC inputs on the same line, as well as having the option to do direct battery charging from a DC source (as long as you use a shunt to measure current). I know this doesn't answer your
Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling
In a message dated 11/25/2008 6:21:53 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I know this doesn't answer your questions, but for similar applications in the future it would be good to take a close look at the SunnyIsland system. They're cool I too love the Sunny Island for all the reasons mentioned. Great machine. However, they need to provide 240 vac and they are pricey , a stacked pair is significantly more than either outback stacked or X brand. I am not a big fan of the transformer step up either--old school. If cost is not an issue, I would go stacked sunny Island because of the communication possibilities. But I'm sure that a lot of outbacks and xws are being used at this time because of cost. I have had no issues mixing brands and technologies. They all seem to work. But you need to be a little smarter with non Sunny island configurations. Happy Thanksgiving, Don Loweburg **Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dpicid=aolcom40vanityncid=emlcntaolcom0002) ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling - SI and SB
What about the new Surrette FC420's? The latest SOLARPRO mag has a tiny blurb on them at the bottom of page 28. Two sets in parallel (630 a/h) would meat your criteria and would perform much better than sealed batteries. I have been beta testing a set here at home and they seem to be doing fine. I hope I get 20 years out of em. Todd On Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:57am, Chris Worcester [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: With two SI5048’s sucking on this battery bank there is the possibility of some serious current transfer taking place. We are proposing an absolute minimum battery size that can go full load draw down for three hours, to 50% DOD, my inclination is to make this 6 hours. At 3 hours we would need a 500 amp hour battery. What are others doing about battery sizing in this scenario? (our client hasn’t revealed what loads he wants to back up unfortunately so we are approaching this in this manner) ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling
Thanks for the report, Steve. I'm also a huge fan of the European SI. We need to be careful when we start to compare operations across the ocean. The US version of the SI is a bit different from the European version. SMA in Germany decided that the full-featured SI would be too expensive for the US market, so they sent us a stripped down, cheaper version. The US version still has some nice features, but it has some limitations when compared to the full-featured European version. One of the brilliant aspects of the full-featured SI is the multi-master operation. I wrote a little bit on the SI for AC minigrids and the multi-master operation in HP 109 - Oct/Nov 2005. It's frustrating to me that SMA hasn't UL listed a full-featured SI for us in the States, but they must figure it doesn't make financial sense for them. Dana -- Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] 360.510.0433 On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:20 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Tump, Yes, the SI SB system is all it's cracked up to be! I'm not sure what is possible in the US but we've been running a 60kW Sunny Island system for over a year now which powers the Scottish Isle of Eigg and uses PV's with Sunny Boys, wind turbines with Windy Boys, 100kW hydro turbine back-up diesel generation. Power is distributed around the island at 3.3kV three-phase using step-up step-down transformers. The generation is located at various parts of the island (as are the houses loads) with the Sunny Islands/Battery Store back-up diesels roughly in the middle. See our website for a full description: http://www.windandsun.co.uk/projects_eigg.htm The Sunny Island inverters use 'Frequency Shift Power Control' - variations in island grid frequency to communicate control signals to the generation sources and to bonus loads. If the batteries cannot absorb the renewable power being generated onto the network (if they are full, or the power generated exceeds the inverter/charger capacity), the Sunny Island inverters raise the system frequency. Sunny Boy Windy Boy inverters are set to 'Off-Grid' mode to respond to this frequency rise and back off power being fed into the system. Other renewable generation (eg. hydro turbines) that is able to respond to this frequency rise to restrict their power output can also be incorporated in the system. The raised frequency can also be used to trigger switching on of bonus loads when there is surplus renewable energy output. The great thing about using this frequency shift for control is that no communication cabling, special circuits or dedicated switching is required and distance is no problem. The other great thing about using the Sunny Island system is that it allows use of the Sunny Webbox for remote monitoring. This means every morning I can check on the internet to see how the system is performing, view state of charge of batteries, and dial in to change things if needed. Furthermore, several people can do this at once - eg. system owners SMA technical support - so we can all look at what's been happening and discuss any events. (I'm sure you all know how useful this can be!) As an example the attached Word document shows how the frequency shift works in practice (Hope it's Ok to send attachments on this list) Regards Steve Wade From: Tump [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date sent: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 08:33:38 -0500 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling Send reply to:RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrenches.org?subject=unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Matt, I have long been interested in installing the SMA SI SBs but I have a VERY tough time selling $9ks worth of inverters, just to get things started. In the system below I would not of hesitated in installing the SMA SI SB! I too agree that w/this type of scenario described below, I would have given quite a bit of thought to using the SMAs. Can't beat the battery charging, no charge controllers expandability. Please if there is someone out there that has had experience w/ the SMA SI SB let us know if it is all that it is cracked up to be! With passport in hand, I offer my help if someone out there has a large system like this, that will be using the SI SB/WB type of set up. TUMP Wind Sun Ltd., Humber Marsh, Stoke Prior, Leominster, Herefordshire, HR6 0NR. Web: www.windandsun.co.uk Tel: 01568 -760671 Fax: 01568-760484 The latest edition of the Wind Sun Design Guide Catalogue is now available. This has 112 pages detailing our product range and is packed with information and advice about setting up or using a wind or solar electrical system. Price is £5.00 + £1.00 pp. Wind Sun Ltd Registered in England Wales, Company Number 3403803 VAT Number GB 448 5458
Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling - SI and SB
I will look at these for other jobs, our client wants maintenance free on this one though. Sincerely, Chris Worcester NABCEP Certified PV Installer Phone: 530-582-4503 Fax: 530-582-4603 http://www.solarwindworks.com/ www.solarwindworks.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Proven Energy Solutions From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:08 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling - SI and SB What about the new Surrette FC420's? The latest SOLARPRO mag has a tiny blurb on them at the bottom of page 28. Two sets in parallel (630 a/h) would meat your criteria and would perform much better than sealed batteries. I have been beta testing a set here at home and they seem to be doing fine. I hope I get 20 years out of em. Todd On Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:57am, Chris Worcester [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: With two SI5048’s sucking on this battery bank there is the possibility of some serious current transfer taking place. We are proposing an absolute minimum battery size that can go full load draw down for three hours, to 50% DOD, my inclination is to make this 6 hours. At 3 hours we would need a 500 amp hour battery. What are others doing about battery sizing in this scenario? (our client hasn’t revealed what loads he wants to back up unfortunately so we are approaching this in this manner) ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling
Hi Dana, So is the issue that any 120v 60 hz units are all the US versions, or do they have 120v 60 hz international versions ( probably non UL)? My asking is that I've got some large projects in Baja that could use full feature and larger stacking than the US version. thanks, jay peltz power On Nov 26, 2008, at 1:32 PM, Dana Brandt wrote: Thanks for the report, Steve. I'm also a huge fan of the European SI. We need to be careful when we start to compare operations across the ocean. The US version of the SI is a bit different from the European version. SMA in Germany decided that the full-featured SI would be too expensive for the US market, so they sent us a stripped down, cheaper version. The US version still has some nice features, but it has some limitations when compared to the full-featured European version. One of the brilliant aspects of the full-featured SI is the multi-master operation. I wrote a little bit on the SI for AC minigrids and the multi-master operation in HP 109 - Oct/Nov 2005. It's frustrating to me that SMA hasn't UL listed a full- featured SI for us in the States, but they must figure it doesn't make financial sense for them. Dana -- Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] 360.510.0433 On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:20 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Tump, Yes, the SI SB system is all it's cracked up to be! I'm not sure what is possible in the US but we've been running a 60kW Sunny Island system for over a year now which powers the Scottish Isle of Eigg and uses PV's with Sunny Boys, wind turbines with Windy Boys, 100kW hydro turbine back-up diesel generation. Power is distributed around the island at 3.3kV three-phase using step-up step-down transformers. The generation is located at various parts of the island (as are the houses loads) with the Sunny Islands/Battery Store back-up diesels roughly in the middle. See our website for a full description: http://www.windandsun.co.uk/projects_eigg.htm The Sunny Island inverters use 'Frequency Shift Power Control' - variations in island grid frequency to communicate control signals to the generation sources and to bonus loads. If the batteries cannot absorb the renewable power being generated onto the network (if they are full, or the power generated exceeds the inverter/charger capacity), the Sunny Island inverters raise the system frequency. Sunny Boy Windy Boy inverters are set to 'Off-Grid' mode to respond to this frequency rise and back off power being fed into the system. Other renewable generation (eg. hydro turbines) that is able to respond to this frequency rise to restrict their power output can also be incorporated in the system. The raised frequency can also be used to trigger switching on of bonus loads when there is surplus renewable energy output. The great thing about using this frequency shift for control is that no communication cabling, special circuits or dedicated switching is required and distance is no problem. The other great thing about using the Sunny Island system is that it allows use of the Sunny Webbox for remote monitoring. This means every morning I can check on the internet to see how the system is performing, view state of charge of batteries, and dial in to change things if needed. Furthermore, several people can do this at once - eg. system owners SMA technical support - so we can all look at what's been happening and discuss any events. (I'm sure you all know how useful this can be!) As an example the attached Word document shows how the frequency shift works in practice (Hope it's Ok to send attachments on this list) Regards Steve Wade From: Tump [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date sent: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 08:33:38 -0500 Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling Send reply to:RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrenches.org?subject=unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Matt, I have long been interested in installing the SMA SI SBs but I have a VERY tough time selling $9ks worth of inverters, just to get things started. In the system below I would not of hesitated in installing the SMA SI SB! I too agree that w/this type of scenario described below, I would have given quite a bit of thought to using the SMAs. Can't beat the battery charging, no charge controllers expandability. Please if there is someone out there that has had experience w/ the SMA SI SB let us know if it is all that it is cracked up to be! With passport in hand, I offer my help if someone out there has a large system like this, that will be using the SI SB/WB type of set up. TUMP Wind Sun Ltd., Humber Marsh, Stoke Prior, Leominster, Herefordshire, HR6 0NR. Web: www.windandsun.co.uk Tel: 01568 -760671 Fax: 01568-760484 The latest edition of the Wind
Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling
Jay, Nope. We are stuck with just what they are offering in the US market - maximum of 4 units in single phase and 3 in three phase. A bummer for sure, considering what is possible in the 50 Hz version! Matt T jay peltz wrote: Hi Dana, So is the issue that any 120v 60 hz units are all the US versions, or do they have 120v 60 hz international versions ( probably non UL)? My asking is that I've got some large projects in Baja that could use full feature and larger stacking than the US version. thanks, jay peltz power On Nov 26, 2008, at 1:32 PM, Dana Brandt wrote: Thanks for the report, Steve. I'm also a huge fan of the European SI. We need to be careful when we start to compare operations across the ocean. The US version of the SI is a bit different from the European version. SMA in Germany decided that the full-featured SI would be too expensive for the US market, so they sent us a stripped down, cheaper version. The US version still has some nice features, but it has some limitations when compared to the full-featured European version. One of the brilliant aspects of the full-featured SI is the multi-master operation. I wrote a little bit on the SI for AC minigrids and the multi-master operation in HP 109 - Oct/Nov 2005. It's frustrating to me that SMA hasn't UL listed a full-featured SI for us in the States, but they must figure it doesn't make financial sense for them. Dana -- Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com http://www.ecotechenergy.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 360.510.0433 On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 10:20 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Tump, Yes, the SI SB system is all it's cracked up to be! I'm not sure what is possible in the US but we've been running a 60kW Sunny Island system for over a year now which powers the Scottish Isle of Eigg and uses PV's with Sunny Boys, wind turbines with Windy Boys, 100kW hydro turbine back-up diesel generation. Power is distributed around the island at 3.3kV three-phase using step-up step-down transformers. The generation is located at various parts of the island (as are the houses loads) with the Sunny Islands/Battery Store back-up diesels roughly in the middle. See our website for a full description: http://www.windandsun.co.uk/projects_eigg.htm The Sunny Island inverters use 'Frequency Shift Power Control' - variations in island grid frequency to communicate control signals to the generation sources and to bonus loads. If the batteries cannot absorb the renewable power being generated onto the network (if they are full, or the power generated exceeds the inverter/charger capacity), the Sunny Island inverters raise the system frequency. Sunny Boy Windy Boy inverters are set to 'Off-Grid' mode to respond to this frequency rise and back off power being fed into the system. Other renewable generation (eg. hydro turbines) that is able to respond to this frequency rise to restrict their power output can also be incorporated in the system. The raised frequency can also be used to trigger switching on of bonus loads when there is surplus renewable energy output. The great thing about using this frequency shift for control is that no communication cabling, special circuits or dedicated switching is required and distance is no problem. The other great thing about using the Sunny Island system is that it allows use of the Sunny Webbox for remote monitoring. This means every morning I can check on the internet to see how the system is performing, view state of charge of batteries, and dial in to change things if needed. Furthermore, several people can do this at once - eg. system owners SMA technical support - so we can all look at what's been happening and discuss any events. (I'm sure you all know how useful this can be!) As an example the attached Word document shows how the frequency shift works in practice (Hope it's Ok to send attachments on this list) Regards Steve Wade From: Tump [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date sent: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 08:33:38 -0500 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling Send reply to:RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrenches.org?subject=unsubscribe http://wrenches.org?subject=unsubscribe mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=subscribe Matt, I have long been interested in installing the SMA SI SBs but I have a VERY tough time selling $9ks worth of inverters, just
Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling - SI and SB
Geoff, SMA suggests using an OutBack Autoformer. Yes, I know it sounds weird to suggest using a competitors product, but this is not the only weirdness when using the 60 Hz SI system! They /also /suggest using the Flexware DC breaker box, as there is really nothing they make that accomplishes the same thing, at such a low cost. Low is subjective, I suppose. I asked a pair of the SMA engineers from Germany about the possibility of coming out with a 240 60 Hz version (pleaded is more like it) to help the long suffering American AE sector, and the answer was just what has been suggested by our Scottish bretheren: If the market is large enough to warrant the UL listing procedure, and if the market will bear a slightly higher price tag, they will do it. I would recommned that each and every one of us that would like to have the option of somehting as great as this system has to offer, PLEASE email, phone and write to SMA Amerika (ho ho ho) to express your wishes. It can't hurt! Matt T Geoff Greenfield wrote: Matt- What is your prefered/recomended way to address the 240 VAC SB series (we typically dont want to use a bunch of 700s or 1800s) and the 120 VAC SI series? We used a pair of Outback PSX-240s but that was extra work/cost. Other (larger) transformers? Torroid coil? Eaton? I'm surprised SMA doesnt have a nice interface worked out for the North American market... Also wrenches... if you go down this route, invest the time ahead of time on learning/preping for the set up etc for SI in this application. It is not out of the box ready to go, but involves a software upgrade, laptops and the right patch cord (an issue if you are 5 hours away...). For a brighter energy future, Geoff Greenfield Founder and CEO *Third Sun Solar Wind Power Ltd. *340 West State Street, Unit 25 Athens, OH 45701 740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548 www.Third-Sun.com /Clean Energy - Expertly Installed / - Tump [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt, I have long been interested in installing the SMA SI SBs but I have a VERY tough time selling $9ks worth of inverters, just to get things started. In the system below I would not of hesitated in installing the SMA SI SB! I too agree that w/this type of scenario described below, I would have given quite a bit of thought to using the SMAs. Can't beat the battery charging, no charge controllers expandability. Please if there is someone out there that has had experience w/ the SMA SI SB let us know if it is all that it is cracked up to be! With passport in hand, I offer my help if someone out there has a large system like this, that will be using the SI SB/WB type of set up. TUMP -Original Message- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Matt Tritt *Sent:* Tuesday, November 25, 2008 9:21 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling I am curious as to why OutBacks were used for this system instead of using SunnyIslands and SunnyBoys? From what I can tell about the SI system, virtually no aspect of battery charging, auto gen-start/stop, and interactive inverter control has been overlooked - or remains to be engineered in the field by the installer. Because SunnyIslands have the ability to talk to Sunny (or Windy)Boys, excess energy is taken care of by integrated load shedding - no need for multiple relays, dumpoads and voltage sensors. :-) The only limitation to these systems (and only in 60 Hz land) is a maximum of 20 kW single, and 15 kW three phase per autonomous load. I really like the flexibility of being able to connect all AC inputs on the same line, as well as having the option to do direct battery charging from a DC source (as long as you use a shunt to measure current). I know this doesn't answer your questions, but for similar applications in the future it would be good to take a close look at the SunnyIsland system. They're cool. Matt T Mark Dickson wrote: Hello Wrenches, On the heels of the previous thread: We just got finished installing a system that utilizes an Outback Quad stack and a 5.2kW array coupled to the AC panel via a Fronius IG5100--due to a long home-run. The VFX's are wired into the home in their traditional manner, providing the grid for the Fronius. As the solar comes in, excess power not used in the home back feeds the batteries through the VFX's. I have a series of relays operating dump loads and finally a power cut-off for when the batteries reach critical level. We installed the system yesterday and turned it on for a test run (then back off to power it up in 2009 for the ITC's)--it worked great! I have a couple questions for you all: * Seems how we are back feeding the inverters
Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling
UB right, Tump. These things aren't exactly something you will ever find at Home Depot! BUT, and it's a big one, if you count all the %$!# time and energy usually required to design, fabricate and re-design a really good off grid system, the extra money might just be woth it. ;-) Matt T Tump wrote: Matt, I have long been interested in installing the SMA SI SBs but I have a VERY tough time selling $9ks worth of inverters, just to get things started. In the system below I would not of hesitated in installing the SMA SI SB! I too agree that w/this type of scenario described below, I would have given quite a bit of thought to using the SMAs. Can't beat the battery charging, no charge controllers expandability. Please if there is someone out there that has had experience w/ the SMA SI SB let us know if it is all that it is cracked up to be! With passport in hand, I offer my help if someone out there has a large system like this, that will be using the SI SB/WB type of set up. TUMP -Original Message- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Matt Tritt *Sent:* Tuesday, November 25, 2008 9:21 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling I am curious as to why OutBacks were used for this system instead of using SunnyIslands and SunnyBoys? From what I can tell about the SI system, virtually no aspect of battery charging, auto gen-start/stop, and interactive inverter control has been overlooked - or remains to be engineered in the field by the installer. Because SunnyIslands have the ability to talk to Sunny (or Windy)Boys, excess energy is taken care of by integrated load shedding - no need for multiple relays, dumpoads and voltage sensors. :-) The only limitation to these systems (and only in 60 Hz land) is a maximum of 20 kW single, and 15 kW three phase per autonomous load. I really like the flexibility of being able to connect all AC inputs on the same line, as well as having the option to do direct battery charging from a DC source (as long as you use a shunt to measure current). I know this doesn't answer your questions, but for similar applications in the future it would be good to take a close look at the SunnyIsland system. They're cool. Matt T Mark Dickson wrote: Hello Wrenches, On the heels of the previous thread: We just got finished installing a system that utilizes an Outback Quad stack and a 5.2kW array coupled to the AC panel via a Fronius IG5100--due to a long home-run. The VFX's are wired into the home in their traditional manner, providing the grid for the Fronius. As the solar comes in, excess power not used in the home back feeds the batteries through the VFX's. I have a series of relays operating dump loads and finally a power cut-off for when the batteries reach critical level. We installed the system yesterday and turned it on for a test run (then back off to power it up in 2009 for the ITC's)--it worked great! I have a couple questions for you all: * Seems how we are back feeding the inverters and forfeiting their charge control, where would you set the dump loads to kick on? o For now I have them set at: 1^st load to kick on at float voltages, 2^nd to kick on at bulk voltages and 3^rd to kick the solar power off at the EQ voltages. Does this make sense? The bank is made up of Rolls 4ks-25ps batteries. * Following a recent discussion on the Wrenches list with a similar system: Do I need to worry about back feeding the generator if it is runnin in the morning when the sun comes up? Do I need a relay that will shut it down when solar comes on line? * I plan on setting the Absorb and Float set times to a miimum. Would you recommend this? Thanks for your input! Mark Dickson Oasis Montana Inc. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1794 - Release Date: 11/17/2008 8:48 AM ___ List sponsored
[RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling
Hello Wrenches, On the heels of the previous thread: We just got finished installing a system that utilizes an Outback Quad stack and a 5.2kW array coupled to the AC panel via a Fronius IG5100--due to a long home-run. The VFX's are wired into the home in their traditional manner, providing the grid for the Fronius. As the solar comes in, excess power not used in the home back feeds the batteries through the VFX's. I have a series of relays operating dump loads and finally a power cut-off for when the batteries reach critical level. We installed the system yesterday and turned it on for a test run (then back off to power it up in 2009 for the ITC's)-it worked great! I have a couple questions for you all: * Seems how we are back feeding the inverters and forfeiting their charge control, where would you set the dump loads to kick on? * For now I have them set at: 1st load to kick on at float voltages, 2nd to kick on at bulk voltages and 3rd to kick the solar power off at the EQ voltages. Does this make sense? The bank is made up of Rolls 4ks-25ps batteries. * Following a recent discussion on the Wrenches list with a similar system: Do I need to worry about back feeding the generator if it is runnin in the morning when the sun comes up? Do I need a relay that will shut it down when solar comes on line? * I plan on setting the Absorb and Float set times to a miimum. Would you recommend this? Thanks for your input! Mark Dickson Oasis Montana Inc. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] More on AC coupling
I am curious as to why OutBacks were used for this system instead of using SunnyIslands and SunnyBoys? From what I can tell about the SI system, virtually no aspect of battery charging, auto gen-start/stop, and interactive inverter control has been overlooked - or remains to be engineered in the field by the installer. Because SunnyIslands have the ability to talk to Sunny (or Windy)Boys, excess energy is taken care of by integrated load shedding - no need for multiple relays, dumpoads and voltage sensors. :-) The only limitation to these systems (and only in 60 Hz land) is a maximum of 20 kW single, and 15 kW three phase per autonomous load. I really like the flexibility of being able to connect all AC inputs on the same line, as well as having the option to do direct battery charging from a DC source (as long as you use a shunt to measure current). I know this doesn't answer your questions, but for similar applications in the future it would be good to take a close look at the SunnyIsland system. They're cool. Matt T Mark Dickson wrote: Hello Wrenches, On the heels of the previous thread: We just got finished installing a system that utilizes an Outback Quad stack and a 5.2kW array coupled to the AC panel via a Fronius IG5100--due to a long home-run. The VFX's are wired into the home in their traditional manner, providing the grid for the Fronius. As the solar comes in, excess power not used in the home back feeds the batteries through the VFX's. I have a series of relays operating dump loads and finally a power cut-off for when the batteries reach critical level. We installed the system yesterday and turned it on for a test run (then back off to power it up in 2009 for the ITC's)--it worked great! I have a couple questions for you all: * Seems how we are back feeding the inverters and forfeiting their charge control, where would you set the dump loads to kick on? o For now I have them set at: 1^st load to kick on at float voltages, 2^nd to kick on at bulk voltages and 3^rd to kick the solar power off at the EQ voltages. Does this make sense? The bank is made up of Rolls 4ks-25ps batteries. * Following a recent discussion on the Wrenches list with a similar system: Do I need to worry about back feeding the generator if it is runnin in the morning when the sun comes up? Do I need a relay that will shut it down when solar comes on line? * I plan on setting the Absorb and Float set times to a miimum. Would you recommend this? Thanks for your input! Mark Dickson Oasis Montana Inc. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1794 - Release Date: 11/17/2008 8:48 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
