Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions
It's amazing how different our experiences are with the same equipment! I've installed hundreds of outbacks, and fixed my share to be sure. But they are the only one I know of that sends just boards and that you don't have to send the inverter back ( offgrid ). In the dozens of rebuilt outbacks, I've never had to re-fix one. Their ship time on board sets is pretty fast. The CC issue is long in the past, FYI Out of the dozen magnums I've installed I've had one DOA, another fail in 2 months, and a 3rd that had such bad rf noise I had to replace it with a VFX. My last failure took almost 3 weeks from removal to replacement while I waited to get it back. Yes fixed for free. Schneider no longer sends board sets. I just had a customer buy a new XW, vs try and repair it, given the unknown repair time or cost, truck cost both ways, my time etc. SMA, wish I could get my clients to afford them! So I'm with john. Jay Peltz power. On Feb 4, 2015, at 8:01 PM, John Blittersdorf john.blittersd...@gmail.com wrote: Allan, I would replace with a VFX3524 and a Mate3 as long as the backup generator is big enough. FX's don't load share or gen support. I have had lousy luck with getting several magnums repaired. All have been switched to Outback. The Radian would be a nightmare to install compared to a single FX. I sell Radians primarily for grid tie backup systems and very high demand off grid. And to replace Magnums. I have had no trouble with Outback service and getting boards for on site repairs. Quality of boards OK. The Mate 3 is more intuitive than the Mate and has lots more information. Works fabulously with OpticsRE for monitoring. I have a remote mountaintop transmitter site that has been a nightmare for years and now we finally got all the pieces together at one time to make it work.. Good generator (EcoGen) new batteries, and 4000 watts of solar on top of pole racks (to self clear of snow) VFX3648 with IOTA 12v battery charger for the DC Loads, and the MATE3 hooked up to the internet and OpticsRE. All is now calm on the mountaintop. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar wind On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com wrote: Esteemed Wrenches, This question is prompted by a specific customer's situation, and I have a question related to this, but I'm mainly using the situation to ask a broader question. The specific situation: A customer's Xantrex SW+2524 has been acting erratically. Fixing the inverter is not the issue; the client is quite remote, and costs of diagnosis, parts and labor for these legacy units have gone up enough that the customer has already decided to replace the unit with a current product. From my perspective, the issues at hand revolve around how to safely and cleanly install a modern inverter into a system structured around old equipment. The specific question: Outback's FX series is the current product that most readily replaces the SW/SW+ series: it's also 120V in/out, and it has DC on the right and AC in/out on the left of a horizontally-laid out unit. However, several times in recent years I have heard disparaging comments, both here and in private conversations, about the purported drop in quality of Outback's inverters and controllers since Alpha bought them, but specifically because units, or parts of units, are now made in China, rather than in the U.S. What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2) what actual experiences, specifically product failures, have any of you had that directly relate to changes directly attributable to overseas production? In other words, how much of this is real and how much is rumor? The bigger question (and this issue will come up frequently in the coming years): the SW+, like the SW before it, operates at 120V AC on both input and output. More and more modern battery-based inverters input and output split-phase 120/240V AC. When should I hesitate to replace a 120V legacy inverter with a 120/240V unit? Among larger whole-house single inverters, Outback's FX and VFX units operate at 120V, but these are older models. SMA's Sunny Island is 120V only, but this is generally considered a weakness in typical SI installations, and these expensive units don't adapt as well as replacements in older home systems. Magnum's MS4024 is available in either configuration. Outback's Radian and Schneider's XW and Conext SW are only available as 120-240 units. Here are the issues that I see: Don't do it if a backup generator is 120V AC-only. It will work, but is hard on the inverters, as all charging current will come in on one leg of the inverter's AC input. Fortunately, relatively few generators are 120V-only; pretty much just the smaller inverter-generators. Most cheaper gennies are 240V, and either run
[RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions
I have to share Jays experience here. I have lost track of how many OB inverters and charge controllers I have installed since OB hit the scene. I have never had a dead unit out of a box and have only had to swap out 4 sets of circuit broads over the years(mostly due to lightning related). I have never had a bad board initially and not had a replacement die. I can say that the wait on the tech line has lengthened severely over time and leaving a message for a call back is a joke (3 days till a response on the last message I left). I have to applaud the OB collection of equipment for compatibility OB to OB and communication has been great. The old Trace SW series used to have “HAL2001” on the front panel as a reference to 2001 Space Odyssey movie because it ran the ship. I would have to say that today’s OB equipment has taken that a step further. I live in OB GTVFX grid tied with battery backup for the last 10 years and it has been flawless. I caution the new owners of OB to not get complacent (Xanterex is a prime example) and keep the quality that they were famous for and improve the tech support access. When I am on a site 2 hours from the shop, barely have cell service, need tech support, I need it then not in 3 days the email response time is typically the same as leaving a message. I will continue for now to install OB. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 E - d...@solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003 - No FAX Line Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988 P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 12:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions It's amazing how different our experiences are with the same equipment! I've installed hundreds of outbacks, and fixed my share to be sure. But they are the only one I know of that sends just boards and that you don't have to send the inverter back ( offgrid ). In the dozens of rebuilt outbacks, I've never had to re-fix one. Their ship time on board sets is pretty fast. The CC issue is long in the past, FYI Out of the dozen magnums I've installed I've had one DOA, another fail in 2 months, and a 3rd that had such bad rf noise I had to replace it with a VFX. My last failure took almost 3 weeks from removal to replacement while I waited to get it back. Yes fixed for free. Schneider no longer sends board sets. I just had a customer buy a new XW, vs try and repair it, given the unknown repair time or cost, truck cost both ways, my time etc. SMA, wish I could get my clients to afford them! So I'm with john. Jay Peltz power. On Feb 4, 2015, at 8:01 PM, John Blittersdorf john.blittersd...@gmail.com wrote: Allan, I would replace with a VFX3524 and a Mate3 as long as the backup generator is big enough. FX's don't load share or gen support. I have had lousy luck with getting several magnums repaired. All have been switched to Outback. The Radian would be a nightmare to install compared to a single FX. I sell Radians primarily for grid tie backup systems and very high demand off grid. And to replace Magnums. I have had no trouble with Outback service and getting boards for on site repairs. Quality of boards OK. The Mate 3 is more intuitive than the Mate and has lots more information. Works fabulously with OpticsRE for monitoring. I have a remote mountaintop transmitter site that has been a nightmare for years and now we finally got all the pieces together at one time to make it work.. Good generator (EcoGen) new batteries, and 4000 watts of solar on top of pole racks (to self clear of snow) VFX3648 with IOTA 12v battery charger for the DC Loads, and the MATE3 hooked up to the internet and OpticsRE. All is now calm on the mountaintop. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar wind On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com wrote: Esteemed Wrenches, This question is prompted by a specific customer's situation, and I have a question related to this, but I'm mainly using the situation to ask a broader question. The specific situation: A customer's Xantrex SW+2524 has been acting erratically. Fixing the inverter is not the issue; the client is quite remote, and costs of diagnosis, parts and labor for these legacy units have gone up enough that the customer has already decided to replace the unit with a current product. From my perspective, the issues at hand revolve around how to safely and cleanly install a modern inverter into a system structured around old equipment. The specific question: Outback's FX series is the current product that most
Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions
One of my main reasons for owning and first choice is the SMA SI. One hel* of
a product, yeah the price IS hi but...SMA is I believe the ONLY manufacture
that will open a claim ticket for repair and give you 90 days to send in for
labor compensation. As for the Sunny Island products I tell customers if
these units fail, a 48 Hr delivery replacement from SMA, but SMA says 24hr.
Round trip shipping IS INCLUDED! Tech support IS available and right on top of
things. Someone at SMA may want to confirm but this has always been my
experience.
On Feb 9, 2015, at 6:22 PM, Larry wrote:
Dan and Allan,
I was not going to comment on this thread since my info is a few years old.
But since you brought up recent failures I will tell my experience. A few
year ago we were having failures with new FM60 and FM80 controllers. Brand
new DOA controllers were replaced with used, warranty repaired controllers.
One customer had 3 controllers replaced in 30 days. After too many calls to
Outback and not one penny in compensation, we totally quit selling all
Outback products.
Since then we have sold hundreds of Magnum Energy inverters. The only failure
we have had was very recently with their new MSH series. For charge
controllers we switched to Midnight Classic. We install 10-15 Classic 150's
per month. We have had 1 DOA but Midnite responded well and sent a new
replacement.
Attention manufacturers...Customer service is everything to me.
Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
On 2/9/15 12:14 PM, Dan Tittmann wrote:
AS someone who works almost exclusively with off grid battery based
inverters for years. I would recommend staying away from the outback line
of inverters. We are seeing outback failures in units that are only 2 to 3
years old, once you get through to the Tech Support generally a 30 to 40 min
hold time and forget about the call you back feature unless you want a
call back in three days. The board replacements that we get are a total
crap shoot. I have had replacement boards fail within minutes and many of
them within in months and there is no warranty on the boards.
I would go with Magun Hybrid as it is a 120 V AC unit and has load assist
like the old SW's. We are always sorry to replace the old SW units but
after 20+ years of service I guess they have put in their work. Magnum has
provided us with reliable service since we started installing them 6 Years
ago. I hope they keep their product as reliable with the new owners.
my two cents
Daniel
Daniel Tittmann
CTO
Greenwired
www.greenwired.com
dan...@greenwired.com
707-923-2001 (office)
707-206-5088 (Cell)
On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com
wrote:
Esteemed Wrenches,
What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ questions: 1) what's
the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2) what actual experiences,
specifically product failures, have any of you had that directly relate to
changes directly attributable to overseas production? In other words, how
much of this is real and how much is rumor?
--
Allan Sindelar
al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
505 780-2738 cell
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions
Dan and Allan, I was not going to comment on this thread since my info is a few years old. But since you brought up recent failures I will tell my experience. A few year ago we were having failures with new FM60 and FM80 controllers. Brand new DOA controllers were replaced with used, warranty repaired controllers. One customer had 3 controllers replaced in 30 days. After too many calls to Outback and not one penny in compensation, we totally quit selling all Outback products. Since then we have sold hundreds of Magnum Energy inverters. The only failure we have had was very recently with their new MSH series. For charge controllers we switched to Midnight Classic. We install 10-15 Classic 150's per month. We have had 1 DOA but Midnite responded well and sent a new replacement. Attention manufacturers...Customer service is everything to me. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 2/9/15 12:14 PM, Dan Tittmann wrote: AS someone who works almost exclusively with off grid battery based inverters for years. I would recommend staying away from the outback line of inverters. We are seeing outback failures in units that are only 2 to 3 years old, once you get through to the Tech Support generally a 30 to 40 min hold time and forget about the call you back feature unless you want a call back in three days. The board replacements that we get are a total crap shoot. I have had replacement boards fail within minutes and many of them within in months and there is no warranty on the boards. I would go with Magun Hybrid as it is a 120 V AC unit and has load assist like the old SW's. We are always sorry to replace the old SW units but after 20+ years of service I guess they have put in their work. Magnum has provided us with reliable service since we started installing them 6 Years ago. I hope they keep their product as reliable with the new owners. my two cents Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com http://www.greenwired.com dan...@greenwired.com mailto:dan...@greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com wrote: Esteemed Wrenches, What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2) what actual experiences, specifically product failures, have any of you had that directly relate to changes directly attributable to overseas production? In other words, how much of this is real and how much is rumor? -- *Allan Sindelar* al...@sindelarsolar.com mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 tel:505%20780-2738 cell* ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions
AS someone who works almost exclusively with off grid battery based inverters for years. I would recommend staying away from the outback line of inverters. We are seeing outback failures in units that are only 2 to 3 years old, once you get through to the Tech Support generally a 30 to 40 min hold time and forget about the call you back feature unless you want a call back in three days. The board replacements that we get are a total crap shoot. I have had replacement boards fail within minutes and many of them within in months and there is no warranty on the boards. I would go with Magun Hybrid as it is a 120 V AC unit and has load assist like the old SW's. We are always sorry to replace the old SW units but after 20+ years of service I guess they have put in their work. Magnum has provided us with reliable service since we started installing them 6 Years ago. I hope they keep their product as reliable with the new owners. my two cents Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com dan...@greenwired.com 707-923-2001 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 9:01 PM, John Blittersdorf john.blittersd...@gmail.com wrote: Allan, I would replace with a VFX3524 and a Mate3 as long as the backup generator is big enough. FX's don't load share or gen support. I have had lousy luck with getting several magnums repaired. All have been switched to Outback. The Radian would be a nightmare to install compared to a single FX. I sell Radians primarily for grid tie backup systems and very high demand off grid. And to replace Magnums. I have had no trouble with Outback service and getting boards for on site repairs. Quality of boards OK. The Mate 3 is more intuitive than the Mate and has lots more information. Works fabulously with OpticsRE for monitoring. I have a remote mountaintop transmitter site that has been a nightmare for years and now we finally got all the pieces together at one time to make it work.. Good generator (EcoGen) new batteries, and 4000 watts of solar on top of pole racks (to self clear of snow) VFX3648 with IOTA 12v battery charger for the DC Loads, and the MATE3 hooked up to the internet and OpticsRE. All is now calm on the mountaintop. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar wind On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com wrote: Esteemed Wrenches, This question is prompted by a specific customer's situation, and I have a question related to this, but I'm mainly using the situation to ask a broader question. The specific situation: A customer's Xantrex SW+2524 has been acting erratically. Fixing the inverter is not the issue; the client is quite remote, and costs of diagnosis, parts and labor for these legacy units have gone up enough that the customer has already decided to replace the unit with a current product. From my perspective, the issues at hand revolve around how to safely and cleanly install a modern inverter into a system structured around old equipment. The specific question: Outback's FX series is the current product that most readily replaces the SW/SW+ series: it's also 120V in/out, and it has DC on the right and AC in/out on the left of a horizontally-laid out unit. However, several times in recent years I have heard disparaging comments, both here and in private conversations, about the purported drop in quality of Outback's inverters and controllers since Alpha bought them, but specifically because units, or parts of units, are now made in China, rather than in the U.S. What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2) what actual experiences, specifically product failures, have any of you had that directly relate to changes directly attributable to overseas production? In other words, how much of this is real and how much is rumor? The bigger question (and this issue will come up frequently in the coming years): the SW+, like the SW before it, operates at 120V AC on both input and output. More and more modern battery-based inverters input and output split-phase 120/240V AC. When should I hesitate to replace a 120V legacy inverter with a 120/240V unit? Among larger whole-house single inverters, Outback's FX and VFX units operate at 120V, but these are older models. SMA's Sunny Island is 120V only, but this is generally considered a weakness in typical SI installations, and these expensive units don't adapt as well as replacements in older home systems. Magnum's MS4024 is available in either configuration. Outback's Radian and Schneider's XW and Conext SW are only available as 120-240 units. Here are the issues that I see: Don't do it if a backup generator is 120V AC-only. It will work, but is hard on the inverters, as all charging current will come in on one leg of the inverter's AC input. Fortunately, relatively few generators are 120V-only; pretty much just the smaller
Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions
Allan, I would replace with a VFX3524 and a Mate3 as long as the backup generator is big enough. FX's don't load share or gen support. I have had lousy luck with getting several magnums repaired. All have been switched to Outback. The Radian would be a nightmare to install compared to a single FX. I sell Radians primarily for grid tie backup systems and very high demand off grid. And to replace Magnums. I have had no trouble with Outback service and getting boards for on site repairs. Quality of boards OK. The Mate 3 is more intuitive than the Mate and has lots more information. Works fabulously with OpticsRE for monitoring. I have a remote mountaintop transmitter site that has been a nightmare for years and now we finally got all the pieces together at one time to make it work.. Good generator (EcoGen) new batteries, and 4000 watts of solar on top of pole racks (to self clear of snow) VFX3648 with IOTA 12v battery charger for the DC Loads, and the MATE3 hooked up to the internet and OpticsRE. All is now calm on the mountaintop. John Blittersdorf Central Vermont Solar wind On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com wrote: Esteemed Wrenches, This question is prompted by a specific customer's situation, and I have a question related to this, but I'm mainly using the situation to ask a broader question. The specific situation: A customer's Xantrex SW+2524 has been acting erratically. Fixing the inverter is not the issue; the client is quite remote, and costs of diagnosis, parts and labor for these legacy units have gone up enough that the customer has already decided to replace the unit with a current product. From my perspective, the issues at hand revolve around how to safely and cleanly install a modern inverter into a system structured around old equipment. The specific question: Outback's FX series is the current product that most readily replaces the SW/SW+ series: it's also 120V in/out, and it has DC on the right and AC in/out on the left of a horizontally-laid out unit. However, several times in recent years I have heard disparaging comments, both here and in private conversations, about the purported drop in quality of Outback's inverters and controllers since Alpha bought them, but specifically because units, or parts of units, are now made in China, rather than in the U.S. What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2) what actual experiences, specifically product failures, have any of you had that directly relate to changes directly attributable to overseas production? In other words, how much of this is real and how much is rumor? The bigger question (and this issue will come up frequently in the coming years): the SW+, like the SW before it, operates at 120V AC on both input and output. More and more modern battery-based inverters input and output split-phase 120/240V AC. When should I hesitate to replace a 120V legacy inverter with a 120/240V unit? Among larger whole-house single inverters, Outback's FX and VFX units operate at 120V, but these are older models. SMA's Sunny Island is 120V only, but this is generally considered a weakness in typical SI installations, and these expensive units don't adapt as well as replacements in older home systems. Magnum's MS4024 is available in either configuration. Outback's Radian and Schneider's XW and Conext SW are only available as 120-240 units. Here are the issues that I see: Don't do it if a backup generator is 120V AC-only. It will work, but is hard on the inverters, as all charging current will come in on one leg of the inverter's AC input. Fortunately, relatively few generators are 120V-only; pretty much just the smaller inverter-generators. Most cheaper gennies are 240V, and either run through a step-down balancing transformer (which would be taken out with the old 120V inverter) or run out of balance. Many better portable generators have a 120/120-240 switch, making it necessary to only replace a cable and plug to add a second hot conductor. Also, most older AC switchgear, such as QO403 inverter bypass switches, are set up for single pole breakers, and would thus require replacement, and reworking in general on the AC side to handle two hot input and output conductors. But once the jumper between the two hot legs is removed in the AC main panel, and two hots are connected, making the panel 120-240, what are the concerns that I might not have anticipated? Are there any hidden dangers, or situations where this change could cause problems, especially in AC distribution? Thanks in advance. I hope that I don't regret posting this late on a Friday... Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy,
Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions
I can vouch for the Outback Radian tech support. I have installed a Radian GS8048A based system with MATE3 and OpticsRE in our own home to gain some familiarity with this system and it is very impressive. I have had some configuration issues and the technical support people (thanks Katee) have been very knowledgeable and ready to spend time on the more complex issues. As someone who does not live in the US, I take a little issue with this Buy only American attitude. You want us to buy your products, movies, music and games, but you won't consider anyone else's products or allow anyone else to make anything? America needs to move off that. We're going to buy the best products on the market regardless of country of manufacture, and you should be ready to do the same. ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions
Wrenches, Allan’s key technical question is “when should I hesitate to replace a 120V legacy inverter with a 120/240V unit?” I’ve reviewed the various scenarios and options with our engineers and tech support team, and the one “watch out” issue that could potentially cause problems when replacing 120V legacy inverters with 120/240V replacements, is how the existing inverter bypass is configured. This is something that will need to be addressed whether the old system was 120V only or 120/240V with multiple 120V inverters. With a 120/240V inverter, the bypass must operate both L1 and L2 poles simultaneously. A common practice in the early days of solar was to use a double pole and single pole breaker combo with a special wiring arrangement and a mechanical interlock to bypass both input and output for each individual phase. As you note these were typically installed in a SqD QO403 3-pole load center, but I’ve also done a similar arrangement in other enclosures which could fit QOU breakers. This worked well enough back when the Trace 120V inverter was the defacto industry standard, as the two stacked inverters were really operating as two independent units, 180 degrees out of phase. However, this type of bypass cannot and should not be used with a 120/240V inverter. If you find this type of bypass in the old system, plan on replacing it with a modern equivalent as part of the upgrade. Other issues relating to upgrading the system would be constrained by site conditions and customer choice – ie, does the current generator have split-phase output capability, is there an L2 conductor already in the ground (or room in the conduit) for both the input from the generator and output to the house, does the customer want to run higher power loads in the future, perhaps run any water pumps at 240 instead of 120 and reduce the starting surges and potential flicker. I can’t think of a situation where a home wired for 120 can’t be fed with 120/240, although the reverse is not always the case. To answer the question regarding what is made where, the vast majority of our products and inverter lines are manufactured in Bellingham, Washington or in Suwanee Georgia (now Georgia might be a little foreign to some, but last I looked it’s still part of the US-of-A). Every Radian inverter, G series inverter and Extreme charge controller is made here in Washington State. We do have an international manufacturing policy where it makes strategic sense – solar is booming in the developing world, and some regions have local content provisions or taxation barriers that require in-country manufacturing so there are a couple inverter lines such as our VFX3024E for the Rest of World market which are made in India along with the FM60 and FM80 charge controllers. However, isn’t that what we want, US businesses succeeding in the global market and bringing that business home? We don’t have any manufacturing in China, nor is there any plan to do so – however, I’m going to take a moment on a soapbox here related to China and solar. China’s citizens look to the West and want access to a similar quality of life, and the more they burn dead dinos to get it the more we are all screwed. IMHO one of the best things that can happen for survivability on this planet is for China to strongly embrace renewables. Global solar market reports show massive deployment of PV throughout China and Asia at all levels, and I’m OK with that. Bring it on. Ray, I’d like to work with you on internet discounters, it’s not our intention to allow folks to undermine the market and devalue what reputable installers such as yourself bring to the table. However, I have to push back on bashing our technical support team. David, Katee, Jorge and the rest of the team work hard to provide trained and knowledgeable support for all of our customers, not just the ones that belong to some kind of loyalty club. The people answering the phones here have experience on the manufacturing line, service depot or education in Electrical Engineering, we’re proud to have a couple Veterans on the crew, and everyone goes through both our CTP and SEI training classes. If a couple of hiring notices in the past have caused you grief I apologize for that, but I challenge you to give our team another chance. Peace, Phil Philip Undercuffler Director, Strategic Platforms OutBack Power Technologies 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223 360.618.4306 office | 425.319.2821 mobile www.outbackpower.com On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 6:19 AM, Tump t...@swnl.net wrote: Allan, are you planning on replacing the battery bank as well? If so SMA is always first choice, despite their price point. As with ANY inverter you will probably have an issue. As remote as site is, I always consider what manufacture really does compensate you and how quickly do they get you a replacement.. Hands down SMA. 120 SPh works with the old gen set, works well with
Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions
Allan, are you planning on replacing the battery bank as well? If so SMA is always first choice, despite their price point. As with ANY inverter you will probably have an issue. As remote as site is, I always consider what manufacture really does compensate you and how quickly do they get you a replacement.. Hands down SMA. 120 SPh works with the old gen set, works well with the Trace DC250, (and these expensive units don't adapt as well as replacements in older home systems) NOT!, talks to Midnights CCs any 220 load is readily installed w/ a t former. No longer are the manus making boards readily available so no more field servicing. If the battery bank is not to be replaced then the OBVFX product line, these units do not need additional software/computer/internet service to service unlike the some others.. .. oh yeah you need to remove the 01-27 replace it with the right file 01-277 sound familiar to any one else? TIME VERSES LABOR your last sentence would be a wake up call all the $$$ you will need to upgrade this old system why would you use anything other then the SMA SI if you too are going to replace the batteries. I also will do a bench test so I am not surprised with ANY remote install. Pain in the butt but certainly lot less problematic for you and your reputation. On Jan 30, 2015, at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Esteemed Wrenches, This question is prompted by a specific customer's situation, and I have a question related to this, but I'm mainly using the situation to ask a broader question. The specific situation: A customer's Xantrex SW+2524 has been acting erratically. Fixing the inverter is not the issue; the client is quite remote, and costs of diagnosis, parts and labor for these legacy units have gone up enough that the customer has already decided to replace the unit with a current product. From my perspective, the issues at hand revolve around how to safely and cleanly install a modern inverter into a system structured around old equipment. The specific question: Outback's FX series is the current product that most readily replaces the SW/SW+ series: it's also 120V in/out, and it has DC on the right and AC in/out on the left of a horizontally-laid out unit. However, several times in recent years I have heard disparaging comments, both here and in private conversations, about the purported drop in quality of Outback's inverters and controllers since Alpha bought them, but specifically because units, or parts of units, are now made in China, rather than in the U.S. What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2) what actual experiences, specifically product failures, have any of you had that directly relate to changes directly attributable to overseas production? In other words, how much of this is real and how much is rumor? The bigger question (and this issue will come up frequently in the coming years): the SW+, like the SW before it, operates at 120V AC on both input and output. More and more modern battery-based inverters input and output split-phase 120/240V AC. When should I hesitate to replace a 120V legacy inverter with a 120/240V unit? Among larger whole-house single inverters, Outback's FX and VFX units operate at 120V, but these are older models. SMA's Sunny Island is 120V only, but this is generally considered a weakness in typical SI installations, . Magnum's MS4024 is available in either configuration. Outback's Radian and Schneider's XW and Conext SW are only available as 120-240 units. Here are the issues that I see: Don't do it if a backup generator is 120V AC-only. It will work, but is hard on the inverters, as all charging current will come in on one leg of the inverter's AC input. Fortunately, relatively few generators are 120V-only; pretty much just the smaller inverter-generators. Most cheaper gennies are 240V, and either run through a step-down balancing transformer (which would be taken out with the old 120V inverter) or run out of balance. Many better portable generators have a 120/120-240 switch, making it necessary to only replace a cable and plug to add a second hot conductor. Also, most older AC switchgear, such as QO403 inverter bypass switches, are set up for single pole breakers, and would thus require replacement, and reworking in general on the AC side to handle two hot input and output conductors. But once the jumper between the two hot legs is removed in the AC main panel, and two hots are connected, making the panel 120-240, what are the concerns that I might not have anticipated? Are there any hidden dangers, or situations where this change could cause problems, especially in AC distribution? Thanks in advance. I hope that I don't regret posting this late on a Friday... Allan -- Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV
Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions
To much to cover right now but in short I have had no issues with the OB inverters, you just put one with and CC and mate 3 seams to do the trick. The Radian is nice, it is 240 VAC, its smarter but takes up allot of additional space. Cheap quick fix is to put a 2435 in the place of the SW and call it a day. Jerry On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com wrote: Esteemed Wrenches, This question is prompted by a specific customer's situation, and I have a question related to this, but I'm mainly using the situation to ask a broader question. The specific situation: A customer's Xantrex SW+2524 has been acting erratically. Fixing the inverter is not the issue; the client is quite remote, and costs of diagnosis, parts and labor for these legacy units have gone up enough that the customer has already decided to replace the unit with a current product. From my perspective, the issues at hand revolve around how to safely and cleanly install a modern inverter into a system structured around old equipment. The specific question: Outback's FX series is the current product that most readily replaces the SW/SW+ series: it's also 120V in/out, and it has DC on the right and AC in/out on the left of a horizontally-laid out unit. However, several times in recent years I have heard disparaging comments, both here and in private conversations, about the purported drop in quality of Outback's inverters and controllers since Alpha bought them, but specifically because units, or parts of units, are now made in China, rather than in the U.S. What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2) what actual experiences, specifically product failures, have any of you had that directly relate to changes directly attributable to overseas production? In other words, how much of this is real and how much is rumor? The bigger question (and this issue will come up frequently in the coming years): the SW+, like the SW before it, operates at 120V AC on both input and output. More and more modern battery-based inverters input and output split-phase 120/240V AC. When should I hesitate to replace a 120V legacy inverter with a 120/240V unit? Among larger whole-house single inverters, Outback's FX and VFX units operate at 120V, but these are older models. SMA's Sunny Island is 120V only, but this is generally considered a weakness in typical SI installations, and these expensive units don't adapt as well as replacements in older home systems. Magnum's MS4024 is available in either configuration. Outback's Radian and Schneider's XW and Conext SW are only available as 120-240 units. Here are the issues that I see: Don't do it if a backup generator is 120V AC-only. It will work, but is hard on the inverters, as all charging current will come in on one leg of the inverter's AC input. Fortunately, relatively few generators are 120V-only; pretty much just the smaller inverter-generators. Most cheaper gennies are 240V, and either run through a step-down balancing transformer (which would be taken out with the old 120V inverter) or run out of balance. Many better portable generators have a 120/120-240 switch, making it necessary to only replace a cable and plug to add a second hot conductor. Also, most older AC switchgear, such as QO403 inverter bypass switches, are set up for single pole breakers, and would thus require replacement, and reworking in general on the AC side to handle two hot input and output conductors. But once the jumper between the two hot legs is removed in the AC main panel, and two hots are connected, making the panel 120-240, what are the concerns that I might not have anticipated? Are there any hidden dangers, or situations where this change could cause problems, especially in AC distribution? Thanks in advance. I hope that I don't regret posting this late on a Friday... Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 505%20780-2738 cell* ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions
Hi Allan; You didn't mention the DC load center used, but that would effect the decision, as well as the relative wall space. I've found customers were very happy with an E Panel setup, as they gained floor/ wall space with the upgrade as well. I'm tired of still working in old Trace DC 250 boxes, if I don't have to. For inverters, my vote would be for the Magnum over the Outback, not that we've had reliability issues with either, but mainly the bang for buck factor. The Magnum has the 120/ 240 vac output, more surge and continuous rating than an Outback, and the remote is much lower cost and much easier to use than the MATE 3. I also appreciate that Magnum is policing internet discounting, while Outback is allowing an anything goes pricing policy, that makes it hard for a reputable installer to compete. Magnum gets my customers more power for less money, and I can still afford to offer a service warranty and pay the bills. I think I really starting moving away from Outback when they advertised for technical support personnel: no experience necessary. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 1/30/2015 6:02 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Esteemed Wrenches, This question is prompted by a specific customer's situation, and I have a question related to this, but I'm mainly using the situation to ask a broader question. The specific situation: A customer's Xantrex SW+2524 has been acting erratically. Fixing the inverter is not the issue; the client is quite remote, and costs of diagnosis, parts and labor for these legacy units have gone up enough that the customer has already decided to replace the unit with a current product. From my perspective, the issues at hand revolve around how to safely and cleanly install a modern inverter into a system structured around old equipment. The specific question: Outback's FX series is the current product that most readily replaces the SW/SW+ series: it's also 120V in/out, and it has DC on the right and AC in/out on the left of a horizontally-laid out unit. However, several times in recent years I have heard disparaging comments, both here and in private conversations, about the purported drop in quality of Outback's inverters and controllers since Alpha bought them, but specifically because units, or parts of units, are now made in China, rather than in the U.S. What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2) what actual experiences, specifically product failures, have any of you had that directly relate to changes directly attributable to overseas production? In other words, how much of this is real and how much is rumor? The bigger question (and this issue will come up frequently in the coming years): the SW+, like the SW before it, operates at 120V AC on both input and output. More and more modern battery-based inverters input and output split-phase 120/240V AC. When should I hesitate to replace a 120V legacy inverter with a 120/240V unit? Among larger whole-house single inverters, Outback's FX and VFX units operate at 120V, but these are older models. SMA's Sunny Island is 120V only, but this is generally considered a weakness in typical SI installations, and these expensive units don't adapt as well as replacements in older home systems. Magnum's MS4024 is available in either configuration. Outback's Radian and Schneider's XW and Conext SW are only available as 120-240 units. Here are the issues that I see: Don't do it if a backup generator is 120V AC-only. It will work, but is hard on the inverters, as all charging current will come in on one leg of the inverter's AC input. Fortunately, relatively few generators are 120V-only; pretty much just the smaller inverter-generators. Most cheaper gennies are 240V, and either run through a step-down balancing transformer (which would be taken out with the old 120V inverter) or run out of balance. Many better portable generators have a 120/120-240 switch, making it necessary to only replace a cable and plug to add a second hot conductor. Also, most older AC switchgear, such as QO403 inverter bypass switches, are set up for single pole breakers, and would thus require replacement, and reworking in general on the AC side to handle two hot input and output conductors. But once the jumper between the two hot legs is removed in the AC main panel, and two hots are connected, making the panel 120-240, what are the concerns that I might not have anticipated? Are there any hidden dangers, or situations where this change could cause problems, especially in AC distribution? Thanks in advance. I hope that I don't regret posting this late on a Friday... Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* al...@sindelarsolar.com mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified
Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions
On a similar but slightly different note, has anyone tried the Outback mini Radian 4048? The Mate3? The half size Radian still costs more than the Magnum PAE, and the Mate3 + Flexnet-DC+Hub etc. cost way more than the Magnum remote and battery monitor. I stopped using Outback a few years back because of the non-intuitive old remote that inquisitive clients could accidentally re-program; the Mate3 looks like a great improvement though. Haven't tried it. Interesting that the Big Three all have approx 4kW 48VDC 120/240 units available now. I love the Magnum remotes, I have successfully walked a client through some serious inverter and gencharger settings changes via satellite SMS texting to them in their wilderness, when I had no users manual available. Until you click in the big black button, you are just browsing, no worries etc. And just install the cheap Magnum battery monitor and it suddenly appears on the remote as % SOCafter a couple charge/discharges where it says Thinkin... customers love that. But how accurate is it? How does it compare to the Bogart gear, and the Midnite Whizbang? I've just started some testing on my home guinea pig system to try and get some data. Will report here. How does the new mini Radian compare with the Magnum PAE on surge..lights flickering when the fridge turns on, etc? Of course on the Magnum it's ugly with a 12v, noticeable with a 24v and minor with a 48v in my experience so far. Off the grid, and the more remote the install, the more I feel married to these systems. Just asking for any info to file away for future pre-nups Best regards; Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 9:45 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: Hi Allan; You didn't mention the DC load center used, but that would effect the decision, as well as the relative wall space. I've found customers were very happy with an E Panel setup, as they gained floor/ wall space with the upgrade as well. I'm tired of still working in old Trace DC 250 boxes, if I don't have to. For inverters, my vote would be for the Magnum over the Outback, not that we've had reliability issues with either, but mainly the bang for buck factor. The Magnum has the 120/ 240 vac output, more surge and continuous rating than an Outback, and the remote is much lower cost and much easier to use than the MATE 3. I also appreciate that Magnum is policing internet discounting, while Outback is allowing an anything goes pricing policy, that makes it hard for a reputable installer to compete. Magnum gets my customers more power for less money, and I can still afford to offer a service warranty and pay the bills. I think I really starting moving away from Outback when they advertised for technical support personnel: no experience necessary. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Off Grid Inverter Replacement Questions
Esteemed Wrenches, This question is prompted by a specific customer's situation, and I have a question related to this, but I'm mainly using the situation to ask a broader question. The specific situation: A customer's Xantrex SW+2524 has been acting erratically. Fixing the inverter is not the issue; the client is quite remote, and costs of diagnosis, parts and labor for these legacy units have gone up enough that the customer has already decided to replace the unit with a current product. From my perspective, the issues at hand revolve around how to safely and cleanly install a modern inverter into a system structured around old equipment. The specific question: Outback's FX series is the current product that most readily replaces the SW/SW+ series: it's also 120V in/out, and it has DC on the right and AC in/out on the left of a horizontally-laid out unit. However, several times in recent years I have heard disparaging comments, both here and in private conversations, about the purported drop in quality of Outback's inverters and controllers since Alpha bought them, but specifically because units, or parts of units, are now made in China, rather than in the U.S. What I want to know, please, are answers to two+ questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2) what actual experiences, specifically product failures, have any of you had that directly relate to changes directly attributable to overseas production? In other words, how much of this is real and how much is rumor? The bigger question (and this issue will come up frequently in the coming years): the SW+, like the SW before it, operates at 120V AC on both input and output. More and more modern battery-based inverters input and output split-phase 120/240V AC. When should I hesitate to replace a 120V legacy inverter with a 120/240V unit? Among larger whole-house single inverters, Outback's FX and VFX units operate at 120V, but these are older models. SMA's Sunny Island is 120V only, but this is generally considered a weakness in typical SI installations, and these expensive units don't adapt as well as replacements in older home systems. Magnum's MS4024 is available in either configuration. Outback's Radian and Schneider's XW and Conext SW are only available as 120-240 units. Here are the issues that I see: Don't do it if a backup generator is 120V AC-only. It will work, but is hard on the inverters, as all charging current will come in on one leg of the inverter's AC input. Fortunately, relatively few generators are 120V-only; pretty much just the smaller inverter-generators. Most cheaper gennies are 240V, and either run through a step-down balancing transformer (which would be taken out with the old 120V inverter) or run out of balance. Many better portable generators have a 120/120-240 switch, making it necessary to only replace a cable and plug to add a second hot conductor. Also, most older AC switchgear, such as QO403 inverter bypass switches, are set up for single pole breakers, and would thus require replacement, and reworking in general on the AC side to handle two hot input and output conductors. But once the jumper between the two hot legs is removed in the AC main panel, and two hots are connected, making the panel 120-240, what are the concerns that I might not have anticipated? Are there any hidden dangers, or situations where this change could cause problems, especially in AC distribution? Thanks in advance. I hope that I don't regret posting this late on a Friday... Allan -- Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
