Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form
Bruce, Please call me, I have a fix for your issue. SMA America, LLC Steve Jefferson Supervisor, Service Line 6020 West Oaks Blvd, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714 U.S.A. Tel: +1 916 625 0870 Fax: +1 916 624-2445 Service Line +1 877 697 6283 (Toll Free) Email: steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com www.SMA-America.com This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Erickson Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 11:37 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form I'm having a similar issue with a GRID-TIE inverter just now. SMA 5000US which, when it wakes up every morning, removes the date and time from the programming in the customers' Monitor brand kerosene heater. They have to re-enter it daily, which is annoying enough, but when they go out of town, they have to leave the inverter off to avoid coming home to a cold house. So far SMA has had us move the breaker as far as possible from the heater breaker, to no avail. They had no other suggestions. I used a Panamax plug-in power conditioner with 50 dB of EMI filtering on the heater outlet, which has reduced the frequency of the problem to once a day, when it wakes up, from a few times a day. Trying a different heater is out of the question due to cost, so I'm stumped as how to avoid an unhappy customer, unless the answer is experimenting with more robust power conditioners. Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax br...@mendocinosolar.com On Apr 16, 2013, at 11:12 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: Jeremy, What to look for? Unfortunately, probably a different coffee maker. I've gone through this with several different appliances over the years on sine wave inverter output. Washing machines, refrigerators, dishwashers it could be anything with electronics. Specific manufacturers typically cannot be avoided in order to solve this issue. Year to year manufacturers may change the design of their appliances, so blanket statements on what works and what doesn't are unreliable. All appliances (excepting a few) are designed to operate on utility power, not inverter power. Inverter power (excepting Exeltech and possibly others) typically has more distortion than utility power. Some appliances cannot tolerate the simulated inverter sine wave power. I always council my inverter customers that I cannot guarantee that all appliances with work flawlessly and that some may not work at all. I advise off-grid clients to buy appliances where there is a liberal return policy. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 www.independentpowerllc.com Vermont Solar Partner 25 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of All Solar Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 12:47 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form Have a client with a new coffee maker that will not run from their new dual outback setup. Has anyone heard of this lately. We have had no problems with appliances and sine wave inverters. What to look for? Sent from Jeremy's IPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form
The old 50uF cap trick worked on Trace SW Inverters as well to run other Hi Efficiency washers. I thought it was the zero crossing issue, but what you're showing for PF makes more sense. I knew the caps worked, I just didn't fully understand why. Thanks, Larry. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/17/2013 1:09 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: We experience issues like this from time to time. PF seems to be the culprit. Have you measured it or looked at the waveform yet? How an inverter deals with PF seems to vary broadly. For example, the Splendide XC2100 washer/dryer will not work on a Magnum Energy and a few other sine wave inverters. However, it will run on a low cost GoPower or Samlex sine wave inverter. Below is a scope trace of voltage/current of the Magnum inverter Splendide washer. Upper trace is voltage By adding a 50uF run capacitor inline, it somewhat tames the current phase and the sine wave so the Magnum can operate the washer. (Special thanks to Al for the discovery and photos) Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 16, 2013, at 9:46 AM, All Solar allso...@scswifi.net wrote: Have a client with a new coffee maker that will not run from their new dual outback setup. Has anyone heard of this lately. We have had no problems with appliances and sine wave inverters. What to look for? Sent from Jeremy's IPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form
Wrenches, While the addition of a capacitor may resolve issues associated with various inverter/appliance/motor combinations, please make sure the capacitor(s) get switched OUT of the circuit (disconnected) when the load itself is disconnected. Failure to do so could under some circumstances cause the inverter control-loop circuitry to go unstable, leading to unpredictable inverter operation, and possible damage/failure in the power system. Disconnecting the capacitor with the load alleviate this possibility. Regards to all... Dan Lepinski --- On Wed, 4/17/13, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: From: Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Wednesday, April 17, 2013, 2:09 PM We experience issues like this from time to time. PF seems to be the culprit. Have you measured it or looked at the waveform yet? How an inverter deals with PF seems to vary broadly. For example, the Splendide XC2100 washer/dryer will not work on a Magnum Energy and a few other sine wave inverters. However, it will run on a low cost GoPower or Samlex sine wave inverter. Below is a scope trace of voltage/current of the Magnum inverter Splendide washer. Upper trace is voltage By adding a 50uF run capacitor inline, it somewhat tames the current phase and the sine wave so the Magnum can operate the washer. (Special thanks to Al for the discovery and photos) Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 16, 2013, at 9:46 AM, All Solar allso...@scswifi.net wrote: Have a client with a new coffee maker that will not run from their new dual outback setup. Has anyone heard of this lately. We have had no problems with appliances and sine wave inverters. What to look for? Sent from Jeremy's IPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form
Thanks Dan. I should have mentioned that this fix is for the washer only and should be installed in a switchable circuit inside the washer or on the washer only circuit. Larry On Apr 17, 2013, at 12:51 PM, Exeltech exelt...@yahoo.com wrote: Wrenches, While the addition of a capacitor may resolve issues associated with various inverter/appliance/motor combinations, please make sure the capacitor(s) get switched OUT of the circuit (disconnected) when the load itself is disconnected. Failure to do so could under some circumstances cause the inverter control-loop circuitry to go unstable, leading to unpredictable inverter operation, and possible damage/failure in the power system. Disconnecting the capacitor with the load alleviate this possibility. Regards to all... Dan Lepinski --- On Wed, 4/17/13, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: From: Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Wednesday, April 17, 2013, 2:09 PM We experience issues like this from time to time. PF seems to be the culprit. Have you measured it or looked at the waveform yet? How an inverter deals with PF seems to vary broadly. For example, the Splendide XC2100 washer/dryer will not work on a Magnum Energy and a few other sine wave inverters. However, it will run on a low cost GoPower or Samlex sine wave inverter. Below is a scope trace of voltage/current of the Magnum inverter Splendide washer. Upper trace is voltage By adding a 50uF run capacitor inline, it somewhat tames the current phase and the sine wave so the Magnum can operate the washer. (Special thanks to Al for the discovery and photos) Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 16, 2013, at 9:46 AM, All Solar allso...@scswifi.net wrote: Have a client with a new coffee maker that will not run from their new dual outback setup. Has anyone heard of this lately. We have had no problems with appliances and sine wave inverters. What to look for? Sent from Jeremy's IPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___i ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form
Wrenches, regarding installing these capacitors in parallel with the load, how do you size the capacitor, from a input current or power perspective, and also a capacitance rating perspective? On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 1:51 PM, Exeltech exelt...@yahoo.com wrote: Wrenches, While the addition of a capacitor may resolve issues associated with various inverter/appliance/motor combinations, please make sure the capacitor(s) get switched OUT of the circuit (disconnected) when the load itself is disconnected. Failure to do so could under some circumstances cause the inverter control-loop circuitry to go unstable, leading to unpredictable inverter operation, and possible damage/failure in the power system. Disconnecting the capacitor with the load alleviate this possibility. Regards to all... Dan Lepinski --- On *Wed, 4/17/13, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com* wrote: From: Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Wednesday, April 17, 2013, 2:09 PM We experience issues like this from time to time. PF seems to be the culprit. Have you measured it or looked at the waveform yet? How an inverter deals with PF seems to vary broadly. For example, the Splendide XC2100 washer/dryer will not work on a Magnum Energy and a few other sine wave inverters. However, it will run on a low cost GoPower or Samlex sine wave inverter. Below is a scope trace of voltage/current of the Magnum inverter Splendide washer. Upper trace is voltage By adding a 50uF run capacitor inline, it somewhat tames the current phase and the sine wave so the Magnum can operate the washer. (Special thanks to Al for the discovery and photos) Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 16, 2013, at 9:46 AM, All Solar allso...@scswifi.nethttp://mc/compose?to=allso...@scswifi.net wrote: Have a client with a new coffee maker that will not run from their new dual outback setup. Has anyone heard of this lately. We have had no problems with appliances and sine wave inverters. What to look for? Sent from Jeremy's IPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orghttp://mc/compose?to=RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orghttp://mc/compose?to=RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis * Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates * ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Outback wave form
Have a client with a new coffee maker that will not run from their new dual outback setup. Has anyone heard of this lately. We have had no problems with appliances and sine wave inverters. What to look for? Sent from Jeremy's IPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form
Jeremy, What to look for? Unfortunately, probably a different coffee maker. I've gone through this with several different appliances over the years on sine wave inverter output. Washing machines, refrigerators, dishwashers it could be anything with electronics. Specific manufacturers typically cannot be avoided in order to solve this issue. Year to year manufacturers may change the design of their appliances, so blanket statements on what works and what doesn't are unreliable. All appliances (excepting a few) are designed to operate on utility power, not inverter power. Inverter power (excepting Exeltech and possibly others) typically has more distortion than utility power. Some appliances cannot tolerate the simulated inverter sine wave power. I always council my inverter customers that I cannot guarantee that all appliances with work flawlessly and that some may not work at all. I advise off-grid clients to buy appliances where there is a liberal return policy. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 www.independentpowerllc.com Vermont Solar Partner 25 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of All Solar Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 12:47 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form Have a client with a new coffee maker that will not run from their new dual outback setup. Has anyone heard of this lately. We have had no problems with appliances and sine wave inverters. What to look for? Sent from Jeremy's IPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form
I'm having a similar issue with a GRID-TIE inverter just now. SMA 5000US which, when it wakes up every morning, removes the date and time from the programming in the customers' Monitor brand kerosene heater. They have to re-enter it daily, which is annoying enough, but when they go out of town, they have to leave the inverter off to avoid coming home to a cold house. So far SMA has had us move the breaker as far as possible from the heater breaker, to no avail. They had no other suggestions. I used a Panamax plug-in power conditioner with 50 dB of EMI filtering on the heater outlet, which has reduced the frequency of the problem to once a day, when it wakes up, from a few times a day. Trying a different heater is out of the question due to cost, so I'm stumped as how to avoid an unhappy customer, unless the answer is experimenting with more robust power conditioners. Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax br...@mendocinosolar.com On Apr 16, 2013, at 11:12 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: Jeremy, What to look for? Unfortunately, probably a different coffee maker. I've gone through this with several different appliances over the years on sine wave inverter output. Washing machines, refrigerators, dishwashers it could be anything with electronics. Specific manufacturers typically cannot be avoided in order to solve this issue. Year to year manufacturers may change the design of their appliances, so blanket statements on what works and what doesn't are unreliable. All appliances (excepting a few) are designed to operate on utility power, not inverter power. Inverter power (excepting Exeltech and possibly others) typically has more distortion than utility power. Some appliances cannot tolerate the simulated inverter sine wave power. I always council my inverter customers that I cannot guarantee that all appliances with work flawlessly and that some may not work at all. I advise off-grid clients to buy appliances where there is a liberal return policy. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 www.independentpowerllc.com Vermont Solar Partner 25 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of All Solar Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 12:47 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form Have a client with a new coffee maker that will not run from their new dual outback setup. Has anyone heard of this lately. We have had no problems with appliances and sine wave inverters. What to look for? Sent from Jeremy's IPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form
I believe these problems are mainly due to the high frequency switching content of the typical sinewave inverter these days. I (and other manufacturers I'm sure) would be very interested to know which appliances are susceptible to this noise so that we can try to reduce these incompatibilities.I'm sure we can't take care of 100% of the incompatibilities but we can try to get closer. For instance, what kind of coffee maker was that, Jeremy ? boB On 4/16/2013 11:36 AM, Bruce Erickson wrote: I'm having a similar issue with a GRID-TIE inverter just now. SMA 5000US which, when it wakes up every morning, removes the date and time from the programming in the customers' Monitor brand kerosene heater. They have to re-enter it daily, which is annoying enough, but when they go out of town, they have to leave the inverter off to avoid coming home to a cold house. So far SMA has had us move the breaker as far as possible from the heater breaker, to no avail. They had no other suggestions. I used a Panamax plug-in power conditioner with 50 dB of EMI filtering on the heater outlet, which has reduced the frequency of the problem to once a day, when it wakes up, from a few times a day. Trying a different heater is out of the question due to cost, so I'm stumped as how to avoid an unhappy customer, unless the answer is experimenting with more robust power conditioners. Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax br...@mendocinosolar.com On Apr 16, 2013, at 11:12 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: Jeremy, What to look for? Unfortunately, probably a different coffee maker. I've gone through this with several different appliances over the years on sine wave inverter output. Washing machines, refrigerators, dishwashers it could be anything with electronics. Specific manufacturers typically cannot be avoided in order to solve this issue. Year to year manufacturers may change the design of their appliances, so blanket statements on what works and what doesn't are unreliable. All appliances (excepting a few) are designed to operate on utility power, not inverter power. Inverter power (excepting Exeltech and possibly others) typically has more distortion than utility power. Some appliances cannot tolerate the simulated inverter sine wave power. I always council my inverter customers that I cannot guarantee that all appliances with work flawlessly and that some may not work at all. I advise off-grid clients to buy appliances where there is a liberal return policy. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 www.independentpowerllc.com Vermont Solar Partner 25 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of All Solar Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 12:47 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form Have a client with a new coffee maker that will not run from their new dual outback setup. Has anyone heard of this lately. We have had no problems with appliances and sine wave inverters. What to look for? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form
coffee machine is a Miele CVA 4066. Sent from Jeremy's IPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Apr 16, 2013, at 12:46 PM, boB b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: I believe these problems are mainly due to the high frequency switching content of the typical sinewave inverter these days. I (and other manufacturers I'm sure) would be very interested to know which appliances are susceptible to this noise so that we can try to reduce these incompatibilities.I'm sure we can't take care of 100% of the incompatibilities but we can try to get closer. For instance, what kind of coffee maker was that, Jeremy ? boB On 4/16/2013 11:36 AM, Bruce Erickson wrote: I'm having a similar issue with a GRID-TIE inverter just now. SMA 5000US which, when it wakes up every morning, removes the date and time from the programming in the customers' Monitor brand kerosene heater. They have to re-enter it daily, which is annoying enough, but when they go out of town, they have to leave the inverter off to avoid coming home to a cold house. So far SMA has had us move the breaker as far as possible from the heater breaker, to no avail. They had no other suggestions. I used a Panamax plug-in power conditioner with 50 dB of EMI filtering on the heater outlet, which has reduced the frequency of the problem to once a day, when it wakes up, from a few times a day. Trying a different heater is out of the question due to cost, so I'm stumped as how to avoid an unhappy customer, unless the answer is experimenting with more robust power conditioners. Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax br...@mendocinosolar.com On Apr 16, 2013, at 11:12 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: Jeremy, What to look for? Unfortunately, probably a different coffee maker. I've gone through this with several different appliances over the years on sine wave inverter output. Washing machines, refrigerators, dishwashers it could be anything with electronics. Specific manufacturers typically cannot be avoided in order to solve this issue. Year to year manufacturers may change the design of their appliances, so blanket statements on what works and what doesn't are unreliable. All appliances (excepting a few) are designed to operate on utility power, not inverter power. Inverter power (excepting Exeltech and possibly others) typically has more distortion than utility power. Some appliances cannot tolerate the simulated inverter sine wave power. I always council my inverter customers that I cannot guarantee that all appliances with work flawlessly and that some may not work at all. I advise off-grid clients to buy appliances where there is a liberal return policy. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 www.independentpowerllc.com Vermont Solar Partner 25 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of All Solar Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 12:47 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form Have a client with a new coffee maker that will not run from their new dual outback setup. Has anyone heard of this lately. We have had no problems with appliances and sine wave inverters. What to look for? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form
coffee machine is a Miele CVA 4066 Oh my gorsh !! That's a $4000 coffee machine !! Sounds like it needs a low pass filter coffee filter though. boB On 4/16/2013 12:27 PM, All Solar wrote: coffee machine is a Miele CVA 4066. Sent from Jeremy's IPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Apr 16, 2013, at 12:46 PM, boB b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: I believe these problems are mainly due to the high frequency switching content of the typical sinewave inverter these days. I (and other manufacturers I'm sure) would be very interested to know which appliances are susceptible to this noise so that we can try to reduce these incompatibilities.I'm sure we can't take care of 100% of the incompatibilities but we can try to get closer. For instance, what kind of coffee maker was that, Jeremy ? boB On 4/16/2013 11:36 AM, Bruce Erickson wrote: I'm having a similar issue with a GRID-TIE inverter just now. SMA 5000US which, when it wakes up every morning, removes the date and time from the programming in the customers' Monitor brand kerosene heater. They have to re-enter it daily, which is annoying enough, but when they go out of town, they have to leave the inverter off to avoid coming home to a cold house. So far SMA has had us move the breaker as far as possible from the heater breaker, to no avail. They had no other suggestions. I used a Panamax plug-in power conditioner with 50 dB of EMI filtering on the heater outlet, which has reduced the frequency of the problem to once a day, when it wakes up, from a few times a day. Trying a different heater is out of the question due to cost, so I'm stumped as how to avoid an unhappy customer, unless the answer is experimenting with more robust power conditioners. Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax br...@mendocinosolar.com On Apr 16, 2013, at 11:12 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: Jeremy, What to look for? Unfortunately, probably a different coffee maker. I've gone through this with several different appliances over the years on sine wave inverter output. Washing machines, refrigerators, dishwashers it could be anything with electronics. Specific manufacturers typically cannot be avoided in order to solve this issue. Year to year manufacturers may change the design of their appliances, so blanket statements on what works and what doesn't are unreliable. All appliances (excepting a few) are designed to operate on utility power, not inverter power. Inverter power (excepting Exeltech and possibly others) typically has more distortion than utility power. Some appliances cannot tolerate the simulated inverter sine wave power. I always council my inverter customers that I cannot guarantee that all appliances with work flawlessly and that some may not work at all. I advise off-grid clients to buy appliances where there is a liberal return policy. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 www.independentpowerllc.com Vermont Solar Partner 25 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of All Solar Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 12:47 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form Have a client with a new coffee maker that will not run from their new dual outback setup. Has anyone heard of this lately. We have had no problems with appliances and sine wave inverters. What to look for? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form
If it is useful to you, I can grab a waveform from my scope connected to my outback and post it. On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 3:27 PM, All Solar allso...@scswifi.net wrote: coffee machine is a Miele CVA 4066. Sent from Jeremy's IPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Apr 16, 2013, at 12:46 PM, boB b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: I believe these problems are mainly due to the high frequency switching content of the typical sinewave inverter these days. I (and other manufacturers I'm sure) would be very interested to know which appliances are susceptible to this noise so that we can try to reduce these incompatibilities.I'm sure we can't take care of 100% of the incompatibilities but we can try to get closer. For instance, what kind of coffee maker was that, Jeremy ? boB On 4/16/2013 11:36 AM, Bruce Erickson wrote: I'm having a similar issue with a GRID-TIE inverter just now. SMA 5000US which, when it wakes up every morning, removes the date and time from the programming in the customers' Monitor brand kerosene heater. They have to re-enter it daily, which is annoying enough, but when they go out of town, they have to leave the inverter off to avoid coming home to a cold house. So far SMA has had us move the breaker as far as possible from the heater breaker, to no avail. They had no other suggestions. I used a Panamax plug-in power conditioner with 50 dB of EMI filtering on the heater outlet, which has reduced the frequency of the problem to once a day, when it wakes up, from a few times a day. Trying a different heater is out of the question due to cost, so I'm stumped as how to avoid an unhappy customer, unless the answer is experimenting with more robust power conditioners. Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax br...@mendocinosolar.com On Apr 16, 2013, at 11:12 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: Jeremy, What to look for? Unfortunately, probably a different coffee maker. I've gone through this with several different appliances over the years on sine wave inverter output. Washing machines, refrigerators, dishwashers it could be anything with electronics. Specific manufacturers typically cannot be avoided in order to solve this issue. Year to year manufacturers may change the design of their appliances, so blanket statements on what works and what doesn't are unreliable. All appliances (excepting a few) are designed to operate on utility power, not inverter power. Inverter power (excepting Exeltech and possibly others) typically has more distortion than utility power. Some appliances cannot tolerate the simulated inverter sine wave power. I always council my inverter customers that I cannot guarantee that all appliances with work flawlessly and that some may not work at all. I advise off-grid clients to buy appliances where there is a liberal return policy. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 www.independentpowerllc.com Vermont Solar Partner 25 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of All Solar Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 12:47 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form Have a client with a new coffee maker that will not run from their new dual outback setup. Has anyone heard of this lately. We have had no problems with appliances and sine wave inverters. What to look for? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form
please... and id love to see the harmonics too! thanks, todd On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 5:19pm, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.com said: If it is useful to you, I can grab a waveform from my scope connected to my outback and post it. On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 3:27 PM, All Solar [mailto:allso...@scswifi.net] allso...@scswifi.net wrote: coffee machine is a Miele CVA 4066. Sent from Jeremy's IPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Apr 16, 2013, at 12:46 PM, boB [mailto:b...@midnitesolar.com] b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: I believe these problems are mainly due to the high frequency switching content of the typical sinewave inverter these days. I (and other manufacturers I'm sure) would be very interested to know which appliances are susceptible to this noise so that we can try to reduce these incompatibilities.I'm sure we can't take care of 100% of the incompatibilities but we can try to get closer. For instance, what kind of coffee maker was that, Jeremy ? boB On 4/16/2013 11:36 AM, Bruce Erickson wrote: I'm having a similar issue with a GRID-TIE inverter just now. SMA 5000US which, when it wakes up every morning, removes the date and time from the programming in the customers' Monitor brand kerosene heater. They have to re-enter it daily, which is annoying enough, but when they go out of town, they have to leave the inverter off to avoid coming home to a cold house. So far SMA has had us move the breaker as far as possible from the heater breaker, to no avail. They had no other suggestions. I used a Panamax plug-in power conditioner with 50 dB of EMI filtering on the heater outlet, which has reduced the frequency of the problem to once a day, when it wakes up, from a few times a day. Trying a different heater is out of the question due to cost, so I'm stumped as how to avoid an unhappy customer, unless the answer is experimenting with more robust power conditioners. Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 [tel:707-937-1701] 707-937-1701 [tel:707-937-1741] 707-937-1741 fax [mailto:br...@mendocinosolar.com] br...@mendocinosolar.com On Apr 16, 2013, at 11:12 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote: Jeremy, What to look for? Unfortunately, probably a different coffee maker. I've gone through this with several different appliances over the years on sine wave inverter output. Washing machines, refrigerators, dishwashers it could be anything with electronics. Specific manufacturers typically cannot be avoided in order to solve this issue. Year to year manufacturers may change the design of their appliances, so blanket statements on what works and what doesn't are unreliable. All appliances (excepting a few) are designed to operate on utility power, not inverter power. Inverter power (excepting Exeltech and possibly others) typically has more distortion than utility power. Some appliances cannot tolerate the simulated inverter sine wave power. I always council my inverter customers that I cannot guarantee that all appliances with work flawlessly and that some may not work at all. I advise off-grid clients to buy appliances where there is a liberal return policy. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 [http://www.independentpowerllc.com] www.independentpowerllc.com Vermont Solar Partner 25 Years Experience, [tel:%28802%29%20888-7194] (802) 888-7194 -Original Message- From: [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of All Solar Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 12:47 PM To: [mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org] re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form Have a client with a new coffee maker that will not run from their new dual outback setup. Has anyone heard of this lately. We have had no problems with appliances and sine wave inverters. What to look for? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: [mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org] RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] www.members.re-wrenches.org
