Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops
Hi Scott, Agree with all you have said and would add that my experience with the failed 48vdc LG RESU 10 proved to me that LG needed to go back and redesign the whole line of residential storage. Not ready for prime time. It probably is just a good choice to stay away from their NMC batteries. No matter what listings they have, it is much safer to use LFP lithium. I have heard that the Tesla powerwall is useable (now) offgrid with warranty. Sadly it is also NMC lithium. The Discover AES and today Fortress are both closed loop (LFP) with Schneider AC coupling or DC. One just sets the current date and configuration is done. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridso...@sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 07:16:39 -0500, scot.a...@solarcentex.com wrote: @ Jerry Shafer: I think the title of the post clearly lays out that the issue I was experiencing is with LG Resu batteries. I am glad that you are having good outcomes with BYD but I never said this was part of my problem. So when you say you are "doing it pretty often" I'm assuming you are referring to the BYD battery. SMA acknowledges verbally that this BYD battery offers uninterrupted operations whereas the LG does not. Further, my original post never said a thing about stacking of SBS. As for "how did (I) determine that LG was an approved solution in the beginning:" SMA depicts this in its datasheets quite clearly. In fact, LG Chem is listed before BYD. Bottom line - there is no recharging capability with SMA AC-coupled PV inverter to LG Resu batteries. Links: -- [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridso...@sti.net ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops
@ Jerry Shafer: I think the title of the post clearly lays out that the issue I was experiencing is with LG Resu batteries. I am glad that you are having good outcomes with BYD but I never said this was part of my problem.So when you say you are "doing it pretty often" I'm assuming you are referring to the BYD battery. SMA acknowledges verbally that this BYD battery offers uninterrupted operations whereas the LG does not. Further, my original post never said a thing about stacking of SBS. As for "how did (I) determine that LG was an approved solution in the beginning:" SMA depicts this in its datasheets quite clearly. In fact, LG Chem is listed before BYD. Bottom line - there is no recharging capability with SMA AC-coupled PV inverter to LG Resu batteries. ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops
Hi Wrenches, Thanks for your comments Jerry, Our company too has had issues with the problems you discuss. It basically seems that someone has misrepresented what is "doable" with the SMA storage inverter, ABU and Sunny Boy PV inverters. We made the mistake of installing 3 in a row and then finding out these issues with SMA. We really hate having customers mad at us! We thus avoid these situations like the plague, or these days the Covid! So what we have come to understand here is that you cannot AC couple SMA and the LG Chem battery. So what is the point of having the ABU? Thanks to Scott for bringing these issues to light. Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. 209.795.3554 office 209.768.3560 mobile/text On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 2:38 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Scot > We do it pretty often and have never had an issue, right out of the gate > we were told that BYD is the only battery option available, l understand > your frustration but how did you determine that LG was an approved solution > in the beginning. SMA is not perfict and I will say they do have an issue > regarding stacking of the SBS's you just can not do it, but on the PV side > it's all good. > Jerry > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 11:17 AM wrote: > >> An update. >> >> >> >> LG ESS is simply not compatible with the SMA represented system of SMA >> storage inverter, Automatic Backup Unit, and its SMA PV inverter. >> >> >> >> Just cannot AC Couple and use solar to recharge the batteries because as >> soon as the battery changes from charging to discharging, it bleeds off >> voltage in its DC to DC converter and that causes the storage inverter to >> drop…and that causes the PV inverter to drop…then it starts anew. >> >> >> >> SMA makes reference to this obliquely in it “background knowledge” >> documentation but even that asterisked verbiage doesn’t drive home the >> point that one just cannot AC couple the PV inverter to gain solar >> charging. And of course if that’s the case, why the heck would one even >> couple via a “whole house backup” SMA Automatic Backup Unit??? The answer >> if course one would not. >> >> >> >> Supposedly the BYD battery which is a true 400V battery and does not have >> the DC to DC converter does not have the same power lapses and will work in >> this architecture. >> >> >> >> Let’s see how SMA fixes this with their documentation representing this >> would all work. >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops
Scot We do it pretty often and have never had an issue, right out of the gate we were told that BYD is the only battery option available, l understand your frustration but how did you determine that LG was an approved solution in the beginning. SMA is not perfict and I will say they do have an issue regarding stacking of the SBS's you just can not do it, but on the PV side it's all good. Jerry On Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 11:17 AM wrote: > An update. > > > > LG ESS is simply not compatible with the SMA represented system of SMA > storage inverter, Automatic Backup Unit, and its SMA PV inverter. > > > > Just cannot AC Couple and use solar to recharge the batteries because as > soon as the battery changes from charging to discharging, it bleeds off > voltage in its DC to DC converter and that causes the storage inverter to > drop…and that causes the PV inverter to drop…then it starts anew. > > > > SMA makes reference to this obliquely in it “background knowledge” > documentation but even that asterisked verbiage doesn’t drive home the > point that one just cannot AC couple the PV inverter to gain solar > charging. And of course if that’s the case, why the heck would one even > couple via a “whole house backup” SMA Automatic Backup Unit??? The answer > if course one would not. > > > > Supposedly the BYD battery which is a true 400V battery and does not have > the DC to DC converter does not have the same power lapses and will work in > this architecture. > > > > Let’s see how SMA fixes this with their documentation representing this > would all work. > > > > > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops
An update. LG ESS is simply not compatible with the SMA represented system of SMA storage inverter, Automatic Backup Unit, and its SMA PV inverter. Just cannot AC Couple and use solar to recharge the batteries because as soon as the battery changes from charging to discharging, it bleeds off voltage in its DC to DC converter and that causes the storage inverter to drop.and that causes the PV inverter to drop.then it starts anew. SMA makes reference to this obliquely in it "background knowledge" documentation but even that asterisked verbiage doesn't drive home the point that one just cannot AC couple the PV inverter to gain solar charging. And of course if that's the case, why the heck would one even couple via a "whole house backup" SMA Automatic Backup Unit??? The answer if course one would not. Supposedly the BYD battery which is a true 400V battery and does not have the DC to DC converter does not have the same power lapses and will work in this architecture. Let's see how SMA fixes this with their documentation representing this would all work. ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops
Yes, that is an aspect to this but not the root cause of the problem I am having. The product manager explained that because the LG battery has an internal DC to DC converter, when it switches between charging and discharging, there is a appx 3 second loss of power when in backup mode. He described how one setup could be 2xLG Resu and 1x BYD as the BYD maintains constant voltage and no “lag.” Still, my own personal LG in a StorEdge system has absolutely no issue like this so I’m trying to figure out why this is a challenge in SMA but not SolarEdge. But back to my main problem, which is charging of the battery in backup mode, from the PV inverter. I am still awaiting his promised email, but he discussed setting country code to Ca Rule 21 to soften the charging points. He said setpoints for when to cease recharging (to prevents too high charging) is field adjustable but I find the SMA interface to be a complex, PhD level of complexity without much installer-level explanation. He also said if any of the three batteries were at this no-charge setpoint, this might cease PV charging so I’ll check that and if that the case, I’ll turn oof high SoC batteries and try to bring all up to common level. I sure hope this is not the case because that would be a serious software gap. I’ll share more as I get more info or learn more in the field. Scot Arey From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 6:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops Scott, Wrenches We have had systems with the SMA storage but we have used the BYD and have had no problems so far with recharge and operations all as expected, it may be an issue with LG programming and the SMA not communicating properly JUerry On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:57 PM mailto:scot.a...@solarcentex.com> > wrote: We have a design with Sunny Storage 6.0 inverter, SB 6.0 PV inverter, the SMA Automatic Backup Unit, and three LG Resu batteries. Works like a charm during normal grid ops but when it goes into backup ops, the Sunny Storage increases frequency to between 60.6 with blips up to 61 hertz, resulting in the PV inverter throttling back from 5,000+ watts to between 1,300 to 345 watts. The result is that the batteries do not recharge from the PV during backup mode, even when SoC is less than half capacity. This also means the max power through the ABU to the “whole house backup” is the 6,000 watts from the Sunny Storage plus the (very) retarded power output of the SB PV inverter. SMA tech support just said, “that is normal, the LG Battery is the culprit and does not charge from PV in this setup.” I was stunned because why else would I buy this ABU coupling setup…Anybody have any ideas? I’m hoping the Sunny Storage freq shifting ramp-up parameters can be adjusted so that PV inverter operations continue when the battery is at a less than full SoC. ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org> ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops
Scott, Wrenches We have had systems with the SMA storage but we have used the BYD and have had no problems so far with recharge and operations all as expected, it may be an issue with LG programming and the SMA not communicating properly JUerry On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:57 PM wrote: > We have a design with Sunny Storage 6.0 inverter, SB 6.0 PV inverter, the > SMA Automatic Backup Unit, and three LG Resu batteries. Works like a charm > during normal grid ops but when it goes into backup ops, the Sunny Storage > increases frequency to between 60.6 with blips up to 61 hertz, resulting in > the PV inverter throttling back from 5,000+ watts to between 1,300 to 345 > watts. > > > > The result is that the batteries do not recharge from the PV during backup > mode, even when SoC is less than half capacity. This also means the max > power through the ABU to the “whole house backup” is the 6,000 watts from > the Sunny Storage plus the (very) retarded power output of the SB PV > inverter. > > > > SMA tech support just said, “that is normal, the LG Battery is the culprit > and does not charge from PV in this setup.” > > > > I was stunned because why else would I buy this ABU coupling setup…Anybody > have any ideas? I’m hoping the Sunny Storage freq shifting ramp-up > parameters can be adjusted so that PV inverter operations continue when the > battery is at a less than full SoC. > > > > > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops
Dear Wrenches, We too are having issues with sma sunnyboy storage sbs6.0 I would like to discuss with anyone off line. Vic Guillot solsier...@gmail.com Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. 209.795.3554 office 209.768.3560 mobile/text On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 11:56 AM wrote: > We have a design with Sunny Storage 6.0 inverter, SB 6.0 PV inverter, the > SMA Automatic Backup Unit, and three LG Resu batteries. Works like a charm > during normal grid ops but when it goes into backup ops, the Sunny Storage > increases frequency to between 60.6 with blips up to 61 hertz, resulting in > the PV inverter throttling back from 5,000+ watts to between 1,300 to 345 > watts. > > > > The result is that the batteries do not recharge from the PV during backup > mode, even when SoC is less than half capacity. This also means the max > power through the ABU to the “whole house backup” is the 6,000 watts from > the Sunny Storage plus the (very) retarded power output of the SB PV > inverter. > > > > SMA tech support just said, “that is normal, the LG Battery is the culprit > and does not charge from PV in this setup.” > > > > I was stunned because why else would I buy this ABU coupling setup…Anybody > have any ideas? I’m hoping the Sunny Storage freq shifting ramp-up > parameters can be adjusted so that PV inverter operations continue when the > battery is at a less than full SoC. > > > > > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops
Hi Howard, I am sure that the SMA guy here on wrenches will give you a better answer. If not I would escalate this at SMA as you are right. The LG will do what you want. Something is not programmed correctly. Three of the Resu 10H are going to take some time to replace near 30KWH. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridso...@sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 12:50:04 -0500, scot.a...@solarcentex.com wrote: We have a design with Sunny Storage 6.0 inverter, SB 6.0 PV inverter, the SMA Automatic Backup Unit, and three LG Resu batteries. Works like a charm during normal grid ops but when it goes into backup ops, the Sunny Storage increases frequency to between 60.6 with blips up to 61 hertz, resulting in the PV inverter throttling back from 5,000+ watts to between 1,300 to 345 watts. The result is that the batteries do not recharge from the PV during backup mode, even when SoC is less than half capacity. This also means the max power through the ABU to the "whole house backup" is the 6,000 watts from the Sunny Storage plus the (very) retarded power output of the SB PV inverter. SMA tech support just said, "that is normal, the LG Battery is the culprit and does not charge from PV in this setup." I was stunned because why else would I buy this ABU coupling setup…Anybody have any ideas? I'm hoping the Sunny Storage freq shifting ramp-up parameters can be adjusted so that PV inverter operations continue when the battery is at a less than full SoC. Links: -- [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridso...@sti.net ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops
Did SMA give anymore explanation as to why this set up does not work? On 7/10/2020 10:50 AM, scot.a...@solarcentex.com wrote: We have a design with Sunny Storage 6.0 inverter, SB 6.0 PV inverter, the SMA Automatic Backup Unit, and three LG Resu batteries. Works like a charm during normal grid ops but when it goes into backup ops, the Sunny Storage increases frequency to between 60.6 with blips up to 61 hertz, resulting in the PV inverter throttling back from 5,000+ watts to between 1,300 to 345 watts. The result is that the batteries do not recharge from the PV during backup mode, even when SoC is less than half capacity. This also means the max power through the ABU to the “whole house backup” is the 6,000 watts from the Sunny Storage plus the (very) retarded power output of the SB PV inverter. SMA tech support just said, “that is normal, the LG Battery is the culprit and does not charge from PV in this setup.” I was stunned because why else would I buy this ABU coupling setup…Anybody have any ideas? I’m hoping the Sunny Storage freq shifting ramp-up parameters can be adjusted so that PV inverter operations continue when the battery is at a less than full SoC. ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage AC-coupled with SB6.0 won't recharge LG Resu batteries during backup ops
We have a design with Sunny Storage 6.0 inverter, SB 6.0 PV inverter, the SMA Automatic Backup Unit, and three LG Resu batteries. Works like a charm during normal grid ops but when it goes into backup ops, the Sunny Storage increases frequency to between 60.6 with blips up to 61 hertz, resulting in the PV inverter throttling back from 5,000+ watts to between 1,300 to 345 watts. The result is that the batteries do not recharge from the PV during backup mode, even when SoC is less than half capacity. This also means the max power through the ABU to the "whole house backup" is the 6,000 watts from the Sunny Storage plus the (very) retarded power output of the SB PV inverter. SMA tech support just said, "that is normal, the LG Battery is the culprit and does not charge from PV in this setup." I was stunned because why else would I buy this ABU coupling setup.Anybody have any ideas? I'm hoping the Sunny Storage freq shifting ramp-up parameters can be adjusted so that PV inverter operations continue when the battery is at a less than full SoC. ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
