Re: [RE-wrenches] Second Life Batteries

2017-10-19 Thread Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
Hard/expensive enough to get home insurance offgrid with lead Acid. I can
imagine the policy for used car batteries in the garage :)
It might reach the do-it yourself experimenters though. They are fearless
in their remote power buildings on U-tube. --Dave

Dave
> Form my vantage point….
>
> Whether UL is involved in the re-purposing of Lithium Ion batteries or
> not, this will not reach to the DIY market for used batteries. With all
> the interest in saving money and the growing availability of wrecked EV's
> with good battery packs, this DIY battery issue is seeing explosive growth
> (pun intended). Really, I get calls weekly for advice.
>
> Just today I had a call from someone buying a wrecked Chevy Volt 18kWh
> battery pack. He said a “guy” takes these apart and makes 48 packs for
> people. That’s all he knew. He wanted us to build a PV solar charging
> system and connect to his cheap Li-ion battery. I was nice. NO WAY would I
> touch it.
>
> People sometimes handle rattlesnakes. No matter how skilled you are, you
> might still get bit. Putting used lithium batteries in service is risky.
> Of course you can learn all about batteries and the risks and mitigate
> much it, but when will you KNOW  100% that a used battery is safe? Damage
> can happen to a Li battery that you can’t tell by testing. It seems to
> be normal but can burst into flames without any external action on it.
> This can happen to a damaged cell just sitting on a shelf.
>
> You can find stories of people skilled with li-ion batteries that have had
> fires. All Li cells are Federally regulated by 49 CFR. Even though that
> regulation spells out sever penalties, thousands of batteries are being
> illegally shipped every day. I know this.
>
> Here’s something for people to think about from the FAA: For
> “aggravated” hazmat violations—those that result in death, serious
> illness, severe injury or substantial destruction of property—the civil
> penalty to $182,877 per day, per violation. Just offering a Li-ion battery
> for shipment without the proper papers is a $20,000 fine per shipment.
> How many eBay sellers know this?
>
> Re-purposing - yes, with good understanding and extreme caution in the
> application.
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:05 PM, Drake 
> wrote:
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> Here is feedback on the second life batteries from Morgan Hager, member of
> the group who will be working on the project. I sent her the information
> provided by the list, and asked for more information. Below is her reply.
>
> *
> Morgan Hager <8welloiledmachi...@gmail.com>
>
> Thanks for the battery feed back.  In anticipation of used EV batteries
> coming to the market in mass, UL has developed specifications for second
> life batteries.  I am not sure if they are complete yet, the goal was this
> year.  This is where I want to start before building.  There are also
> already commercial products available using repurposed 18650's so there
> must be some kind of benchmark or reference.  More research needed.
>
> Also:
>
> Here's a good article about this. Not the standards themselves however:
>
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdetwiler/2016/08/24/ul-working-to-ensure-used-ev-batteries-safely-re-purposed/?c=0=trending#383524bf1365
>
> One problem I see is that these standards are for a stationary application
> and we want to build a vehicle pack. Still seems a good place to start.
>
> ***
>
> It looks like this isn't just a crazy way to blow ourselves up, but a
> technology that is in the wings.
> any feedback would be welcome.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Drake
>
> Drake Chamberlin
> Athens Electric LLC
> OH License 44810
> CO License 3773
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV
> 740-448-7328
>
>
>
> ___
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>


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Second Life Batteries

2017-10-19 Thread Starlight Solar Power Systems 
Form my vantage point….

Whether UL is involved in the re-purposing of Lithium Ion batteries or not, 
this will not reach to the DIY market for used batteries. With all the interest 
in saving money and the growing availability of wrecked EV's with good battery 
packs, this DIY battery issue is seeing explosive growth (pun intended). 
Really, I get calls weekly for advice. 

Just today I had a call from someone buying a wrecked Chevy Volt 18kWh battery 
pack. He said a “guy” takes these apart and makes 48 packs for people. That’s 
all he knew. He wanted us to build a PV solar charging system and connect to 
his cheap Li-ion battery. I was nice. NO WAY would I touch it.

People sometimes handle rattlesnakes. No matter how skilled you are, you might 
still get bit. Putting used lithium batteries in service is risky. Of course 
you can learn all about batteries and the risks and mitigate much it, but when 
will you KNOW  100% that a used battery is safe? Damage can happen to a Li 
battery that you can’t tell by testing. It seems to be normal but can burst 
into flames without any external action on it. This can happen to a damaged 
cell just sitting on a shelf.

You can find stories of people skilled with li-ion batteries that have had 
fires. All Li cells are Federally regulated by 49 CFR. Even though that 
regulation spells out sever penalties, thousands of batteries are being 
illegally shipped every day. I know this.

Here’s something for people to think about from the FAA: For “aggravated” 
hazmat violations—those that result in death, serious illness, severe injury or 
substantial destruction of property—the civil penalty to $182,877 per day, per 
violation. Just offering a Li-ion battery for shipment without the proper 
papers is a $20,000 fine per shipment.  How many eBay sellers know this?

Re-purposing - yes, with good understanding and extreme caution in the 
application.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:05 PM, Drake  wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

Here is feedback on the second life batteries from Morgan Hager, member of the 
group who will be working on the project. I sent her the information provided 
by the list, and asked for more information. Below is her reply.

*
Morgan Hager <8welloiledmachi...@gmail.com>

Thanks for the battery feed back.  In anticipation of used EV batteries coming 
to the market in mass, UL has developed specifications for second life 
batteries.  I am not sure if they are complete yet, the goal was this year.  
This is where I want to start before building.  There are also already 
commercial products available using repurposed 18650's so there must be some 
kind of benchmark or reference.  More research needed.

Also:

Here's a good article about this. Not the standards themselves however:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdetwiler/2016/08/24/ul-working-to-ensure-used-ev-batteries-safely-re-purposed/?c=0=trending#383524bf1365

One problem I see is that these standards are for a stationary application and 
we want to build a vehicle pack. Still seems a good place to start.

***

It looks like this isn't just a crazy way to blow ourselves up, but a 
technology that is in the wings.
any feedback would be welcome.

Cheers,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Second Life Batteries

2017-10-19 Thread Ray 
Funny because none of the Lead acid batteries we've used off grid all 
these years are UL listed.


Ray Walters


On 10/19/17 3:28 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:

They need a bit more than UL to move them around and for fire if a
home/commercial also.. --Dave


Reliability & Certification
Safety
Cell
UL1642
Battery Pack
CE / RCM / FCC / TUV (IEC 62619) / UL1973
Hazardous Materials Classification
Class 9
Transportation
UN38.3 (UNDOT)
Ingress Rating
IP55


Dave

Hello Wrenches,

Here is feedback on the second life batteries
from Morgan Hager, member of the group who will
be working on the project. I sent her the
information provided by the list, and asked for
more information. Below is her reply.

*
Morgan Hager <8welloiledmachi...@gmail.com>

Thanks for the battery feed back.  In
anticipation of used EV batteries coming to the
market in mass, UL has developed specifications
for second life batteries.  I am not sure if they
are complete yet, the goal was this year.  This
is where I want to start before building.  There
are also already commercial products available
using repurposed 18650's so there must be some
kind of benchmark or reference.  More research needed.

Also:

Here's a good article about this. Not the standards themselves however:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdetwiler/2016/08/24/ul-working-to-ensure-used-ev-batteries-safely-re-purposed/?c=0=trending#383524bf1365

One problem I see is that these standards are for
a stationary application and we want to build a
vehicle pack. Still seems a good place to start.

***

It looks like this isn't just a crazy way to blow
ourselves up, but a technology that is in the wings.
any feedback would be welcome.

Cheers,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328


At 05:18 PM 10/5/2017, you wrote:

As has been said, and very well again by Larry, one needs to know exactly
what type of Lion chemistry they are dealing with.

Probably the best place to learn at this time is automotive electric car
hobbyist or the offgrid Prismatic battery folks.

It took me a year to learn enough about the LG Chem RESU10 before I took
it off the dolly and moved the bolt cutters away from it.

It lives in the garage and has an earthquake strap now as that seems to
be
the biggest hazard it presents. Flooding not good either:)

--Dave



Dave Starlight Solar Power SystemsDave

If you are going to play without knowledge, never have these battery

cells

near anything you are not willing to loose to fire. Worst case is you

burn

something that you did not intend to. Might be something cheap or your
home and all your possessions or your eyes and skin. If that happens,
don’t blame the battery.

Larry

On Oct 5, 2017, at 12:44 PM, Drake



wrote:

Those are great arc-flash photos. Are we really getting into a serious
risk of this sort of situation with a Li-ion battery? What really

happens

in a worst-case-scenario situation with them? How many people have

blown

themselves up to date? :-)

Thanks,

Drake


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"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

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e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Second Life Batteries

2017-10-19 Thread Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
They need a bit more than UL to move them around and for fire if a
home/commercial also.. --Dave


Reliability & Certification
Safety
Cell
UL1642
Battery Pack
CE / RCM / FCC / TUV (IEC 62619) / UL1973
Hazardous Materials Classification
Class 9
Transportation
UN38.3 (UNDOT)
Ingress Rating
IP55


Dave
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> Here is feedback on the second life batteries
> from Morgan Hager, member of the group who will
> be working on the project. I sent her the
> information provided by the list, and asked for
> more information. Below is her reply.
>
> *
> Morgan Hager <8welloiledmachi...@gmail.com>
>
> Thanks for the battery feed back.  In
> anticipation of used EV batteries coming to the
> market in mass, UL has developed specifications
> for second life batteries.  I am not sure if they
> are complete yet, the goal was this year.  This
> is where I want to start before building.  There
> are also already commercial products available
> using repurposed 18650's so there must be some
> kind of benchmark or reference.  More research needed.
>
> Also:
>
> Here's a good article about this. Not the standards themselves however:
>
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdetwiler/2016/08/24/ul-working-to-ensure-used-ev-batteries-safely-re-purposed/?c=0=trending#383524bf1365
>
> One problem I see is that these standards are for
> a stationary application and we want to build a
> vehicle pack. Still seems a good place to start.
>
> ***
>
> It looks like this isn't just a crazy way to blow
> ourselves up, but a technology that is in the wings.
> any feedback would be welcome.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Drake
>
> Drake Chamberlin
> Athens Electric LLC
> OH License 44810
> CO License 3773
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV
> 740-448-7328
>
>
> At 05:18 PM 10/5/2017, you wrote:
>>As has been said, and very well again by Larry, one needs to know exactly
>>what type of Lion chemistry they are dealing with.
>>
>>Probably the best place to learn at this time is automotive electric car
>>hobbyist or the offgrid Prismatic battery folks.
>>
>>It took me a year to learn enough about the LG Chem RESU10 before I took
>>it off the dolly and moved the bolt cutters away from it.
>>
>>It lives in the garage and has an earthquake strap now as that seems to
>> be
>>the biggest hazard it presents. Flooding not good either:)
>>
>>--Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>Dave Starlight Solar Power SystemsDave
>> > If you are going to play without knowledge, never have these battery
>> cells
>> > near anything you are not willing to loose to fire. Worst case is you
>> burn
>> > something that you did not intend to. Might be something cheap or your
>> > home and all your possessions or your eyes and skin. If that happens,
>> > don’t blame the battery.
>> >
>> > Larry
>> >
>> > On Oct 5, 2017, at 12:44 PM, Drake
>> 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Those are great arc-flash photos. Are we really getting into a serious
>> > risk of this sort of situation with a Li-ion battery? What really
>> happens
>> > in a worst-case-scenario situation with them? How many people have
>> blown
>> > themselves up to date? :-)
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Drake
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>> >
>> > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> >
>> > Change listserver email address & settings:
>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> >
>> > List-Archive:
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>> >
>> > List rules & etiquette:
>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>> >
>> > Check out or update participant bios:
>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>"we go where powerlines don't"
>>http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>>e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
>>text 209 813 0060
>>
>>___
>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>>List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>Change listserver email address & settings:
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>>
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>>
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>>www.members.re-wrenches.org
>


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Second Life Batteries

2017-10-19 Thread Drake 

Hello Wrenches,

Here is feedback on the second life batteries 
from Morgan Hager, member of the group who will 
be working on the project. I sent her the 
information provided by the list, and asked for 
more information. Below is her reply.


*
Morgan Hager <8welloiledmachi...@gmail.com>

Thanks for the battery feed back.  In 
anticipation of used EV batteries coming to the 
market in mass, UL has developed specifications 
for second life batteries.  I am not sure if they 
are complete yet, the goal was this year.  This 
is where I want to start before building.  There 
are also already commercial products available 
using repurposed 18650's so there must be some 
kind of benchmark or reference.  More research needed.


Also:

Here's a good article about this. Not the standards themselves however:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdetwiler/2016/08/24/ul-working-to-ensure-used-ev-batteries-safely-re-purposed/?c=0=trending#383524bf1365

One problem I see is that these standards are for 
a stationary application and we want to build a 
vehicle pack. Still seems a good place to start.


***

It looks like this isn't just a crazy way to blow 
ourselves up, but a technology that is in the wings.

any feedback would be welcome.

Cheers,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328


At 05:18 PM 10/5/2017, you wrote:

As has been said, and very well again by Larry, one needs to know exactly
what type of Lion chemistry they are dealing with.

Probably the best place to learn at this time is automotive electric car
hobbyist or the offgrid Prismatic battery folks.

It took me a year to learn enough about the LG Chem RESU10 before I took
it off the dolly and moved the bolt cutters away from it.

It lives in the garage and has an earthquake strap now as that seems to be
the biggest hazard it presents. Flooding not good either:)

--Dave



Dave Starlight Solar Power SystemsDave
> If you are going to play without knowledge, never have these battery cells
> near anything you are not willing to loose to fire. Worst case is you burn
> something that you did not intend to. Might be something cheap or your
> home and all your possessions or your eyes and skin. If that happens,
> don’t blame the battery.
>
> Larry
>
> On Oct 5, 2017, at 12:44 PM, Drake 
> wrote:
>
> Those are great arc-flash photos. Are we really getting into a serious
> risk of this sort of situation with a Li-ion battery? What really happens
> in a worst-case-scenario situation with them? How many people have blown
> themselves up to date? :-)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
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>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Second Life Batteries

2017-10-05 Thread Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
As has been said, and very well again by Larry, one needs to know exactly
what type of Lion chemistry they are dealing with.

Probably the best place to learn at this time is automotive electric car
hobbyist or the offgrid Prismatic battery folks.

It took me a year to learn enough about the LG Chem RESU10 before I took
it off the dolly and moved the bolt cutters away from it.

It lives in the garage and has an earthquake strap now as that seems to be
the biggest hazard it presents. Flooding not good either:)

--Dave



Dave Starlight Solar Power SystemsDave
> If you are going to play without knowledge, never have these battery cells
> near anything you are not willing to loose to fire. Worst case is you burn
> something that you did not intend to. Might be something cheap or your
> home and all your possessions or your eyes and skin. If that happens,
> don’t blame the battery.
>
> Larry
>
> On Oct 5, 2017, at 12:44 PM, Drake 
> wrote:
>
> Those are great arc-flash photos. Are we really getting into a serious
> risk of this sort of situation with a Li-ion battery? What really happens
> in a worst-case-scenario situation with them? How many people have blown
> themselves up to date? :-)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
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> List-Archive:
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>
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>


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Second Life Batteries

2017-10-05 Thread Starlight Solar Power Systems 
If you are going to play without knowledge, never have these battery cells near 
anything you are not willing to loose to fire. Worst case is you burn something 
that you did not intend to. Might be something cheap or your home and all your 
possessions or your eyes and skin. If that happens, don’t blame the battery. 

Larry

On Oct 5, 2017, at 12:44 PM, Drake  wrote:

Those are great arc-flash photos. Are we really getting into a serious risk of 
this sort of situation with a Li-ion battery? What really happens in a 
worst-case-scenario situation with them? How many people have blown themselves 
up to date? :-)

Thanks,

Drake


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Second Life Batteries

2017-10-05 Thread Drake 
Those are great arc-flash photos. Are we really 
getting into a serious risk of this sort of 
situation with a Li-ion battery? What really 
happens in a worst-case-scenario situation with 
them? How many people have blown themselves up to date? :-)


Thanks,

Drake

At 01:16 PM 10/5/2017, you wrote:


 Youtube.com will make you a genius or a smoking idiot!

Move forward with caution and remember all shortcuts lead to the Emergency
Room.

A good Google page for Arc flash!

https://www.google.com/search?q=arc+flash=isch=iu=m=1=simg:CAES0QEJ24TjFZ8ovAYaxQELEKjU2AQaAggKDAsQsIynCBpiCmAIAxIo0ArcCtoKwBfNCsoXzwqZFckKxQvRItIqyCrJKtIi0Sq4KtMi2SKDKRowVq3_1QrChqjwNPjcgJ6cenC51ab4CWMgggm_1rHeOxKzGMcsFocJfte22orPb2sbuWIAQMCxCOrv4IGgoKCAgBEgRBrt0ADAsQne3BCRozChcKBWZsb29y2qWI9gMKCggvbS8wbDdfOAoYCgRpcm9u2qWI9gMMCgovbS8wMjVydzE5DA=wExvN668YVFhlM%253A%252CoO20Qa16SBrwzM%252C_=__yYOeGJ1ykoGS6agy8mCq9iMrY90%3D=X=0ahUKEwifnZnR6NnWAhUQzWMKHfN3ANQQ9QEIPTAD#imgrc=wExvN668YVFhlM:


--Dave


Dave Starlight Solar Power SystemsDave
> Hi Drake,
>
> What chemistry of li-ion batteries are you talking about? Some, like
> LiFePO4, are far less prone to thermal runaway as they have superior
> thermal characteristics. Other chemistries should be avoided unless you
> have significant cell level monitoring and control.
>
> As with all batteries, when any one cell in series with other cells
> becomes fully intercalated (think of a lead acid cell in saturation), that
> cell voltage will rise above the others that are still absorbing current.
> With lead batteries this means off gassing and heat buildup of that cell.
> With Li-ion cells, especially at high charge rates, this can produce a
> fast temperature buildup. Some Li cells have pressure valves built in,
> much like valve regulated lead batteries do. High temperature will cause
> pressure from boiling the electrolyte. The vent opens to release pressure
> and lower the internal temperature, hopefully. This stopgap greatly
> improves safety but may not be sufficient to prevent thermal runaway.
>
> If all cells are matched for capacity and balanced, a good practice is to
> under charge them. There is no reason ever to fully charge a lithium
> battery and stopping short is a good practice for any Li chemistry. But
> this alone is not enough. If you want to be more safe, monitor each cell
> voltage AND temperature and turn off charging before any 1 cell exceeds
> the specification for that battery type. This is done with a BMS. Our
> systems all have BMS controls which I believe makes Li-ion batteries safer
> than lead acid. In lead acid battery systems I have seen thermal run away
> and several explosions.
>
> Beware: Notice above I said “more safe”. There are conditions that can
> make a Li cell very dangerous, especially with a used battery, that you
> can’t tell from any non-destructive testing method. Study the formation
> of dendrites.
>
> This subject is too vast to discuss in an email, so I recommend that you
> study much before you proceed. Many others have been where you are now and
> have paid a very high price for assumed understanding.
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> (4+ years studying, designing and installing Li-ion energy storage
> systems)
>
>
> On Oct 5, 2017, at 6:45 AM, Drake 
> wrote:
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> I've been contacted by a group who will be taking apart lithium ion
> battery packs that have been retired, finding the bad cells and
> recombining the remainder, then putting them in larger configurations for
> use in PV systems and electric vehicles.
>
> How can thermal runaway be avoided? Is there any information that could be
> of use in making these systems safe and effective?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Second Life Batteries

2017-10-05 Thread Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 

 Youtube.com will make you a genius or a smoking idiot!

Move forward with caution and remember all shortcuts lead to the Emergency
Room.

A good Google page for Arc flash!

https://www.google.com/search?q=arc+flash=isch=iu=m=1=simg:CAES0QEJ24TjFZ8ovAYaxQELEKjU2AQaAggKDAsQsIynCBpiCmAIAxIo0ArcCtoKwBfNCsoXzwqZFckKxQvRItIqyCrJKtIi0Sq4KtMi2SKDKRowVq3_1QrChqjwNPjcgJ6cenC51ab4CWMgggm_1rHeOxKzGMcsFocJfte22orPb2sbuWIAQMCxCOrv4IGgoKCAgBEgRBrt0ADAsQne3BCRozChcKBWZsb29y2qWI9gMKCggvbS8wbDdfOAoYCgRpcm9u2qWI9gMMCgovbS8wMjVydzE5DA=wExvN668YVFhlM%253A%252CoO20Qa16SBrwzM%252C_=__yYOeGJ1ykoGS6agy8mCq9iMrY90%3D=X=0ahUKEwifnZnR6NnWAhUQzWMKHfN3ANQQ9QEIPTAD#imgrc=wExvN668YVFhlM:


--Dave


Dave Starlight Solar Power SystemsDave
> Hi Drake,
>
> What chemistry of li-ion batteries are you talking about? Some, like
> LiFePO4, are far less prone to thermal runaway as they have superior
> thermal characteristics. Other chemistries should be avoided unless you
> have significant cell level monitoring and control.
>
> As with all batteries, when any one cell in series with other cells
> becomes fully intercalated (think of a lead acid cell in saturation), that
> cell voltage will rise above the others that are still absorbing current.
> With lead batteries this means off gassing and heat buildup of that cell.
> With Li-ion cells, especially at high charge rates, this can produce a
> fast temperature buildup. Some Li cells have pressure valves built in,
> much like valve regulated lead batteries do. High temperature will cause
> pressure from boiling the electrolyte. The vent opens to release pressure
> and lower the internal temperature, hopefully. This stopgap greatly
> improves safety but may not be sufficient to prevent thermal runaway.
>
> If all cells are matched for capacity and balanced, a good practice is to
> under charge them. There is no reason ever to fully charge a lithium
> battery and stopping short is a good practice for any Li chemistry. But
> this alone is not enough. If you want to be more safe, monitor each cell
> voltage AND temperature and turn off charging before any 1 cell exceeds
> the specification for that battery type. This is done with a BMS. Our
> systems all have BMS controls which I believe makes Li-ion batteries safer
> than lead acid. In lead acid battery systems I have seen thermal run away
> and several explosions.
>
> Beware: Notice above I said “more safe”. There are conditions that can
> make a Li cell very dangerous, especially with a used battery, that you
> can’t tell from any non-destructive testing method. Study the formation
> of dendrites.
>
> This subject is too vast to discuss in an email, so I recommend that you
> study much before you proceed. Many others have been where you are now and
> have paid a very high price for assumed understanding.
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> (4+ years studying, designing and installing Li-ion energy storage
> systems)
>
>
> On Oct 5, 2017, at 6:45 AM, Drake 
> wrote:
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> I've been contacted by a group who will be taking apart lithium ion
> battery packs that have been retired, finding the bad cells and
> recombining the remainder, then putting them in larger configurations for
> use in PV systems and electric vehicles.
>
> How can thermal runaway be avoided? Is there any information that could be
> of use in making these systems safe and effective?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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>
> List rules & etiquette:
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>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Second Life Batteries

2017-10-05 Thread Starlight Solar Power Systems 
Hi Drake,

What chemistry of li-ion batteries are you talking about? Some, like LiFePO4, 
are far less prone to thermal runaway as they have superior thermal 
characteristics. Other chemistries should be avoided unless you have 
significant cell level monitoring and control. 

As with all batteries, when any one cell in series with other cells becomes 
fully intercalated (think of a lead acid cell in saturation), that cell voltage 
will rise above the others that are still absorbing current. With lead 
batteries this means off gassing and heat buildup of that cell. With Li-ion 
cells, especially at high charge rates, this can produce a fast temperature 
buildup. Some Li cells have pressure valves built in, much like valve regulated 
lead batteries do. High temperature will cause pressure from boiling the 
electrolyte. The vent opens to release pressure and lower the internal 
temperature, hopefully. This stopgap greatly improves safety but may not be 
sufficient to prevent thermal runaway. 

If all cells are matched for capacity and balanced, a good practice is to under 
charge them. There is no reason ever to fully charge a lithium battery and 
stopping short is a good practice for any Li chemistry. But this alone is not 
enough. If you want to be more safe, monitor each cell voltage AND temperature 
and turn off charging before any 1 cell exceeds the specification for that 
battery type. This is done with a BMS. Our systems all have BMS controls which 
I believe makes Li-ion batteries safer than lead acid. In lead acid battery 
systems I have seen thermal run away and several explosions. 

Beware: Notice above I said “more safe”. There are conditions that can make a 
Li cell very dangerous, especially with a used battery, that you can’t tell 
from any non-destructive testing method. Study the formation of dendrites. 

This subject is too vast to discuss in an email, so I recommend that you study 
much before you proceed. Many others have been where you are now and have paid 
a very high price for assumed understanding. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(4+ years studying, designing and installing Li-ion energy storage systems)


On Oct 5, 2017, at 6:45 AM, Drake  wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

I've been contacted by a group who will be taking apart lithium ion battery 
packs that have been retired, finding the bad cells and recombining the 
remainder, then putting them in larger configurations for use in PV systems and 
electric vehicles.

How can thermal runaway be avoided? Is there any information that could be of 
use in making these systems safe and effective?

Thanks,

Drake






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Re: [RE-wrenches] Second Life Batteries

2017-10-05 Thread Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
I would tell them that there are different types of Li-ion and many are
not made to be "repurposed" and should be re-cycled.
Many are not safe in the home and I certainly would not want my name on
anything crazy, like this sounds.

To do this the BMS needs to be recalibrated for cycled bateries. I doubt
the talent/engineering exists in this very new technology.

Send them to E-bay where there seems to be plenty of people willing to
risk their apartments:)  --Dave




Dave Darryl ThayerDave
> Thermal Runaway is caused by part of a cell or cells being warmer than
> other cells as the cell warms is to voltage drops and the other cells
> power
> into that cell or can be caused by a failure of that cell usually a
> failure
> of a Cell results in a fuse being blown fusible link being blowing a good
> way to avoid thermal runaway is to maintain all the cells at the same
> temperature with an active cooling system. Systems like the Nissan Leaf
> use
> packs instead of individual cells this greatly reduces the potential for
> thermal Runaway however the surge-charge-rate are reduced with this style
> of cell. Thermal runaway most commonly occurs on charging however it can
> occur on discharging also. As many of us know thermal runaway can occur
> with lead acid AGM type batteries and even flooded if too many cells are
> placed in parallel.
>
> On Oct 5, 2017 8:45 AM, "Drake" 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Wrenches,
>>
>> I've been contacted by a group who will be taking apart lithium ion
>> battery packs that have been retired, finding the bad cells and
>> recombining
>> the remainder, then putting them in larger configurations for use in PV
>> systems and electric vehicles.
>>
>> How can thermal runaway be avoided? Is there any information that could
>> be
>> of use in making these systems safe and effective?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Drake
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List-Archive:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.or
>> g/maillist.html
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
> ___
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> www.members.re-wrenches.org
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>


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Second Life Batteries

2017-10-05 Thread Darryl Thayer 
Thermal Runaway is caused by part of a cell or cells being warmer than
other cells as the cell warms is to voltage drops and the other cells power
into that cell or can be caused by a failure of that cell usually a failure
of a Cell results in a fuse being blown fusible link being blowing a good
way to avoid thermal runaway is to maintain all the cells at the same
temperature with an active cooling system. Systems like the Nissan Leaf use
packs instead of individual cells this greatly reduces the potential for
thermal Runaway however the surge-charge-rate are reduced with this style
of cell. Thermal runaway most commonly occurs on charging however it can
occur on discharging also. As many of us know thermal runaway can occur
with lead acid AGM type batteries and even flooded if too many cells are
placed in parallel.

On Oct 5, 2017 8:45 AM, "Drake" 
wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
>
> I've been contacted by a group who will be taking apart lithium ion
> battery packs that have been retired, finding the bad cells and recombining
> the remainder, then putting them in larger configurations for use in PV
> systems and electric vehicles.
>
> How can thermal runaway be avoided? Is there any information that could be
> of use in making these systems safe and effective?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
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> g/maillist.html
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
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> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
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>
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[RE-wrenches] Second Life Batteries

2017-10-05 Thread Drake 

Hello Wrenches,

I've been contacted by a group who will be taking apart lithium ion 
battery packs that have been retired, finding the bad cells and 
recombining the remainder, then putting them in larger configurations 
for use in PV systems and electric vehicles.


How can thermal runaway be avoided? Is there any information that 
could be of use in making these systems safe and effective?


Thanks,

Drake



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