Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings
Hi David, Can you elaborate on the mounting system(s?) that would minimize fire propagation? TIA, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 06-Feb-14 1:11 PM, David Brearley wrote: William, There are few Class A fire-rated PV modules on the market today: http://www.trinasolar.com/us/product/PDG5.html http://www.silicon-energy.com/products/modules The broader context is that UL is in the process of revising the way that fire ratings are determined for PV systems. To date, modules have received a fire classification. However in the installed environment, fire propagation has more to do with the mounting system than with module construction. Therefore, fire classification tests in the future will be based more on the mounting method. As Bill Brooks explained here on January 8th: UL 1703 has been substantially changed as to how modules are fire rated. Basically, modules will no longer receive a direct fire rating unless they are installed in a fire-rated mounting system. A current module with a Class C or Class A rating will no longer have that rating. The mounting system will carry the fire rating. Modules will have specific “types” based on their construction. This way a rack manufacturer can get a fire rating on modules of a particular module construction type and not have to rerate their rack with every module that has that same construction. All these changes in the UL1703 standard are going to require education so that fire officials and building code enforcement officials understand how to enforce the new building code rules in light of the new version of the UL standard. Arguably, enforcement of fire rating requirements in the I-codes is running ahead of the development of the applicable UL standard. It's safe to say that working groups at SEIA and SolarABCs are very interested in tracking these types of issues. The SolarABCs has had fire classification ratings on its radar for several years now: http://www.solarabcs.org/current-issues/fire_class_rating.html David Brearley Senior Technical Editor,/SolarPro/magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brear...@solarprofessional.com mailto:david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Feb 6, 2014, at 12:20 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: *From:*William Korthof wkort...@gmail.com mailto:wkort...@gmail.com *Subject:**[RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings* *Date:*February 6, 2014 10:56:05 AM CST *To:*re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Reply-To:*RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org I've just been informed by a city (our own City in fact) that is asking for minimum Class-B fire-rated solar modules, citing rules newly adopted Jan 1, 2014. The expert behind the counter made reference to IRC section 902.4, which seems to call for solar installations to meet the same fire rating standard as the roofing on which they are installed. It was the end of the day. Most roofing is B or A rating apparently, and my official was adamant that this meant only a B or A rated panel would be allowed. As far as I know, virtually every solar panel I've ever handled going back to the mid 90's was Class C rated. The only Class A I remember (and the only one I noticed from web searching) was the obnoxiously unwieldy glass-on-glass 300-watt series that got absorbed by Schott and probably discontinued many years ago. I have one of those antiques in my shop for fun, and I encountered exactly one installation that used the product (from another installer), and there were issues with the panels within the first 10 years. Is this Class A/B requirement issue true? Did the state fire marshall adopt a policy at the start of this year that basically bans all panels with C rating? Are there any class B or A rated modules on the market? Who's brilliant idea was this? /wk -- William Korthof http://www.sustainsp.com/images/SSP_Logo_RGB_email.jpg 714.875.3576 and 800.524.2970 Sustainable Solutions Partners (also dba: EE Solar) ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3684/7068 - Release Date: 02/06/14 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3697/7071 - Release Date: 02/07/14___ List sponsored
Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings
There are several SolarABCs reports that speak to this. For example: http://bit.ly/1bD8wM7 The complete list of reports is found here: http://www.solarabcs.org/current-issues/fire_class_rating.html David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Feb 7, 2014, at 8:55 AM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: From: Bill Loesch solar1onl...@charter.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings Date: February 7, 2014 8:54:22 AM CST To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi David, Can you elaborate on the mounting system(s?) that would minimize fire propagation? TIA, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings
Guess I am missing the thread. Does it even matter anymore what the rating of the modules is anymore? What is now operative is a rating of the combined module/mounting system? Mark On 2/7/2014 9:38 AM, David Brearley wrote: There are several SolarABCs reports that speak to this. For example: http://bit.ly/1bD8wM7 http://www.solarabcs.org/current-issues/docs/UL_Report_Gap_and_Flashing_Exps_3-29-12.pdf The complete list of reports is found here: http://www.solarabcs.org/current-issues/fire_class_rating.html David Brearley Senior Technical Editor,/SolarPro/magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brear...@solarprofessional.com mailto:david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Feb 7, 2014, at 8:55 AM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: * From:*Bill Loesch solar1onl...@charter.net mailto:solar1onl...@charter.net *Subject:**Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings* *Date:*February 7, 2014 8:54:22 AM CST *To:*RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Reply-To:*RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi David, Can you elaborate on the mounting system(s?) that would minimize fire propagation? TIA, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings
So does this help understand why Sunrun bought REC and Snap n Rack? Going forward the only installable equipment will be provided by large groups that can afford to test and rate their own panel with specific racking systems that they also own? Mark On 2/7/2014 9:38 AM, David Brearley wrote: There are several SolarABCs reports that speak to this. For example: http://bit.ly/1bD8wM7 http://www.solarabcs.org/current-issues/docs/UL_Report_Gap_and_Flashing_Exps_3-29-12.pdf The complete list of reports is found here: http://www.solarabcs.org/current-issues/fire_class_rating.html David Brearley Senior Technical Editor,/SolarPro/magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brear...@solarprofessional.com mailto:david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Feb 7, 2014, at 8:55 AM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: * From:*Bill Loesch solar1onl...@charter.net mailto:solar1onl...@charter.net *Subject:**Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings* *Date:*February 7, 2014 8:54:22 AM CST *To:*RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Reply-To:*RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi David, Can you elaborate on the mounting system(s?) that would minimize fire propagation? TIA, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings
Mark, You should know better than anyone else that you can't corner the sun market. If you read the reports you will find that your deepest fears are unfounded. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 10:32 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings So does this help understand why Sunrun bought REC and Snap n Rack? Going forward the only installable equipment will be provided by large groups that can afford to test and rate their own panel with specific racking systems that they also own? Mark On 2/7/2014 9:38 AM, David Brearley wrote: There are several SolarABCs reports that speak to this. For example: http://bit.ly/1bD8wM7 http://www.solarabcs.org/current-issues/docs/UL_Report_Gap_and_Flashing_Exp s_3-29-12.pdf The complete list of reports is found here: http://www.solarabcs.org/current-issues/fire_class_rating.html David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brear...@solarprofessional.com mailto:david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Feb 7, 2014, at 8:55 AM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: From: Bill Loesch solar1onl...@charter.net mailto:solar1onl...@charter.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings Date: February 7, 2014 8:54:22 AM CST To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi David, Can you elaborate on the mounting system(s?) that would minimize fire propagation? TIA, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings
I've just been informed by a city (our own City in fact) that is asking for minimum Class-B fire-rated solar modules, citing rules newly adopted Jan 1, 2014. The expert behind the counter made reference to IRC section 902.4, which seems to call for solar installations to meet the same fire rating standard as the roofing on which they are installed. It was the end of the day. Most roofing is B or A rating apparently, and my official was adamant that this meant only a B or A rated panel would be allowed. As far as I know, virtually every solar panel I've ever handled going back to the mid 90's was Class C rated. The only Class A I remember (and the only one I noticed from web searching) was the obnoxiously unwieldy glass-on-glass 300-watt series that got absorbed by Schott and probably discontinued many years ago. I have one of those antiques in my shop for fun, and I encountered exactly one installation that used the product (from another installer), and there were issues with the panels within the first 10 years. Is this Class A/B requirement issue true? Did the state fire marshall adopt a policy at the start of this year that basically bans all panels with C rating? Are there any class B or A rated modules on the market? Who's brilliant idea was this? /wk -- William Korthof http://www.sustainsp.com/images/SSP_Logo_RGB_email.jpg 714.875.3576 and 800.524.2970 Sustainable Solutions Partners (also dba: EE Solar) ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings
William, There are few Class A fire-rated PV modules on the market today: http://www.trinasolar.com/us/product/PDG5.html http://www.silicon-energy.com/products/modules The broader context is that UL is in the process of revising the way that fire ratings are determined for PV systems. To date, modules have received a fire classification. However in the installed environment, fire propagation has more to do with the mounting system than with module construction. Therefore, fire classification tests in the future will be based more on the mounting method. As Bill Brooks explained here on January 8th: UL 1703 has been substantially changed as to how modules are fire rated. Basically, modules will no longer receive a direct fire rating unless they are installed in a fire-rated mounting system. A current module with a Class C or Class A rating will no longer have that rating. The mounting system will carry the fire rating. Modules will have specific “types” based on their construction. This way a rack manufacturer can get a fire rating on modules of a particular module construction type and not have to rerate their rack with every module that has that same construction. All these changes in the UL1703 standard are going to require education so that fire officials and building code enforcement officials understand how to enforce the new building code rules in light of the new version of the UL standard. Arguably, enforcement of fire rating requirements in the I-codes is running ahead of the development of the applicable UL standard. It's safe to say that working groups at SEIA and SolarABCs are very interested in tracking these types of issues. The SolarABCs has had fire classification ratings on its radar for several years now: http://www.solarabcs.org/current-issues/fire_class_rating.html David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Feb 6, 2014, at 12:20 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: From: William Korthof wkort...@gmail.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings Date: February 6, 2014 10:56:05 AM CST To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org I've just been informed by a city (our own City in fact) that is asking for minimum Class-B fire-rated solar modules, citing rules newly adopted Jan 1, 2014. The expert behind the counter made reference to IRC section 902.4, which seems to call for solar installations to meet the same fire rating standard as the roofing on which they are installed. It was the end of the day. Most roofing is B or A rating apparently, and my official was adamant that this meant only a B or A rated panel would be allowed. As far as I know, virtually every solar panel I've ever handled going back to the mid 90's was Class C rated. The only Class A I remember (and the only one I noticed from web searching) was the obnoxiously unwieldy glass-on-glass 300-watt series that got absorbed by Schott and probably discontinued many years ago. I have one of those antiques in my shop for fun, and I encountered exactly one installation that used the product (from another installer), and there were issues with the panels within the first 10 years. Is this Class A/B requirement issue true? Did the state fire marshall adopt a policy at the start of this year that basically bans all panels with C rating? Are there any class B or A rated modules on the market? Who's brilliant idea was this? /wk -- William Korthof 714.875.3576 and 800.524.2970 Sustainable Solutions Partners (also dba: EE Solar) ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
