Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[William Miller]

Allan:

We recently experienced some problems charging a new set of IBE batteries 
with XW equipment.  The apparent solution was reached just before I left 
for a back packing trip so I did not have time to post the 
results.  Apparently, the flags on the IBE batteries developed a talcum 
powder like deposit between the flags and the cables, in spite of being 
cleaned and sealed recently.  Re-cleaning them improved charging and 
discharging.  We may have a defective terminal sealant product.  We 
reapplied the same product because that is what we had on a Saturday and we 
want to know if we need to discontinue use of it.  I will post further results.


In the meantime, we are learning that higher equalize voltages on VLA 
batteries is better.  We theorize that industrial chargers of the type that 
are not micro-processor controlled allow higher voltages to occur during 
charging.  Battery industry techs are familiar with these devices but may 
not realize that they are not as precise at voltage regulation as a modern 
inverter/charger.  The batteries like these higher voltages and don't get 
them with your XW or VFX inverter.  This is just a theory and we are 
working to verify it.


William Miller



At 10:53 AM 8/3/2008, you wrote:

Wrenches,
Thank you for the whole set of responses.

I haven't been to the site yet, but plan to stop there this week. As the
symptoms are not easily explained, I wanted to put the problem out for ideas
here first, to reduce the chance of missing something. I will report back
with what I learn.

I will first check whether the 0.4 V discrepancy is related to battery
temperature. It seems to me that the simplest way to do this is to check the
MX60 settings during equalization. If the measured voltage is at the MX60's
temperature-compensated EQ voltage, then a warm environment is the apparent
cause of the reduced voltage.



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[Jeff Yago]

The Surrette Tech Bulletin 614 is available for download at http://surrette.com/files/BU-RS-614.pdf. My understanding is that this bulletin is the direct result of the complaints on this list about two years ago about Surrette battery performance and life. 
 
Allan
 
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  
 
I think this started two years ago with my complaint that we had an off-grid system that worked great for years using L-16's with no problem reaching a full charge with either the solar array or the generator, then after replacing the 6 year old bank with Surrette's of equal amp-hr size we never could run the generator long enough to reach a 100% full charge state.  
 
As I recall, we were told these batteries have an unusual lead plate composition that gives them a much longer life and low water usage than other brands, but also makes it very hard to fully charge unless you have grid backup available.  I think these do much better in applications that can provide very long and slow float charges like a grid backup power system, but may not work as well when the charging process is a generator.We no longer use them in off-grid applications unless the solar is really over-sized.
 
Jeff Yago Netscape.  Just the Net You Need.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[robert ellison]

Still using a standard type charger, 3 ph, 480 volt
They start at 100 amp and go down from there.

We replaced a high frequency charger that was no longer doing the job with a
standard charger at one site. The hi freq would start at 110 amp and run for
a while then remove the surface charge and readjust for the changed
readings. It just never seemed to get the battery charged the way it needed
to be done. (The way we do it) An Eq charge will hold at the what is the top
voltage for 3 - 5 hours, but nowhere near what we use for an EQ voltage.
These cells are in a 4 x 5 layout in each pack and I have found a 25 degree
difference from the outer cells to the inner cells. There is no such thing
available as temp compensation in any of these chargers.
The Hi freq chargers have no transformers and a real hi frequency noise when
running. Nothing like 3 stages or anything like that.

Good night,
Bob

On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 9:46 PM, jay peltz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi bob,
> Wow now thats unusual!
>
> So have you figured out a better charger or are using a IBE or similar?
>
> jay
>
>  On Aug 3, 2008, at 6:02 PM, robert ellison wrote:
>
>  The 80 volt battery banks are not on inverters, sorry I didn't mention
> that.
> They are 2 - 20 cell packs in series for 80 volts total.
> These power a Zamboni. I didn't know what one of those was either when they
> called me to work on the batteries 10 or so years ago.
> These are the machines that groom the ice on skating rinks, in most cases
> you can't use an engine inside a building anymore, so they are going
> electric. I did put out some feelers a few years ago about building a 3
> stage charger to charge them. Many are still using the transformer based,
> taper type charger we got away from years ago.
>
> It's another cool toy I get to play with.
>
> Later,
> Bob
>
> On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 12:31 PM, jay peltz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> HI Bob,
>> What are you using 80v battery banks for or which inverters anyway?
>>
>> Would be great for larger systems.
>>
>> thanks,
>> jay
>> peltz power
>>
>>
>>  On Aug 1, 2008, at 10:18 PM, robert ellison wrote:
>>
>>  When i went to an SEI class at the Trojan factory one of the points
>> mentioned was that the best way to get the lowest cost per watt from the
>> battery bank
>> (T-105's were at the time the lowest) was to cycle them to 80% discharge
>> then fill them all the way up. Not feasible in an off grid system at all.
>> We get more years life by just taking off the top 20 - 25% and returning
>> it daily.
>>
>> My battery distributor says that an industrial deep cycle battery needs to
>> be cycled occasionaly to prevent them developing a "memory" so to speak.
>> I recommend to my customers that they occasionally let them run down to 50
>> -60% DOD and fill them back up with an EQ charge to stir up the electrolyte
>> so you can get an accurate reading with a hydrometer.
>> Stratification will throw off the gravity readings unless they get stirred
>> up occasionally.
>> I have pulled apart batteries that did not get an EQ and found the bottom
>> of the plates wore out and the top still looking reasonably good. That is
>> from the acid being a lot stronger at the bottom than the top and just
>> working on the bottom of the plates in the battery. This is not a "fun"
>> project and usually results in some trashed clothes, rubber suit or not.
>>
>> I have 80 volt battery packs that get cycled to 70-80% DOD daily for 5
>> months a year then sit for 7 months with just a couple freshening charges
>> and last 6 - 7 years till wore out, some of these are hi acid batteries that
>> are in the specific gravity range or 1.325 or more when fully charged
>> instead of the usual 1.265 -1.270 that we are used to seeing.
>>
>> I am not a battery "expert" I just have several big banks that I maintain
>> and have formed some opinions over the last 15 or so years.
>> I have also experienced wearing out a set of L-16's by hitting the end of
>> their cycle life in just over a year. It was way too small a battery bank
>> and got cycled fully almost daily hitting it's cycle life limit far
>> sooner than a larger bank would have if treated well.
>>
>> Good night,
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 12:01 AM, jay peltz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Robert,
>>> When you mention cycling batteries, are you saying that batteries in a
>>> offgrid system that are being cycled 15-25% a day should be cycled even
>>> deeper than that?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> jay
>>> peltz power
>>>  On Aug 1, 2008, at 8:36 PM, robert ellison wrote:
>>>
>>>  A couple things that I haver noticed in the past, sometimes batteries
>>> like to be cycled, shut off the controllers and run them down, then charge
>>> them up fully and then give them an eq charge till it comes up the peak
>>> voltage and hold it there as it (sometimes) slowly rises. Any of these
>>> thoughts are superseded by Jamie if he has any thoughts.
>>>
>>> Also, if you have not given them 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[jay peltz]

HI Allan,

so right you are.

Thanks about the surrette link.
There batteries sure seem to be prone to odd things in the PV world.


peace,

jay
On Aug 3, 2008, at 5:12 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:


Jay,
You're right about leaving off the post at the bottom - whoops.  
It's at the bottom here.


About voltage drop: I meant only that by running the array at a  
higher voltage than the batteries, there could never be sufficient  
hot-weather and undersized-wire voltage drop to prevent the array  
from exceeding the EQ voltage of the batteries. This is most often  
a potential problem with 12V systems. I mentioned it only to  
eliminate it as a possible cause of this situation.


The Surrette Tech Bulletin 614 is available for download at http:// 
surrette.com/files/BU-RS-614.pdf. My understanding is that this  
bulletin is the direct result of the complaints on this list about  
two years ago about Surrette battery performance and life.


Allan

-Original Message-
From: jay peltz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 1:41 PM
To: Allan Sindelar
Subject: Fwd: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

HI Allan,

You mention about a Surrette tech bulletin, I can't seem to find  
it? Can you tell me where it might be on their site?


Also I"m curious about you saying that hot modules isn't going to  
affect voltage drop.
Sure it will.  If the wire is upsized for the lower voltages from  
hot weather, then you've compensated for it, but there is still  
added voltage drop.


And about the adding new panels to old? I didn't see the link/post  
at the bottom?

 Thanks, jay

OK, the story,
This client had started off-grid in the early nineties with a tight  
budget. He and his wife would add modules as they could afford  
them, usually used. The built a homemade tracker with a Wattsun SA  
controller and two linear actuators, using a DPDT momentary switch  
to adjust elevation seasonally. Over time the tracker filled out  
with eight Arco 16-2000s, nine Carrizo (Arco) M52L 5V Quad-Lams,  
two BP 275s, and two old square whatsises with 2" cells from the  
seventies.


Eventually their income increased and their house and house loads  
got bigger. They asked us to upgrade their array, which eventually  
led to the 8 160W modules I added on a pole-top array. There were  
several catches, though:
1. They wanted to keep as much as possible of the original  
"democracy tracker" in operation;
2. The house had grown over the years, and the existing tracker had  
to be moved 50' farther away;
3. The balance-of-system was still in the original basement, now  
inaccessible from the outside, as the house had been expanded bit  
by bit in all directions.
4. The #2 (or 2/0, I can't recall) USE copper array input wires had  
been built over and couldn't be replaced; we had to use them.


We dismantled the tracker and moved the pole (yep, lifted pole,  
concrete and all and set it in a new, larger hole with more  
concrete). We put a 3R j-box where the old pole had been and  
trenched to the new locations. After playing with different  
calculations, we changed the old tracked array as follows:
1. We added two BP 380s (the closest we could get then to the older  
275s) and wired them as one 48V string;

2. We dumped the whatsises, which had low output;
3. Now I'm trying to remember: I think I wired the four 16-2000s  
(originally 2.2A at 12V) in parallel, then wired this set of four  
in series with the nine Quad-Lams (think of M52Ls, originally used  
in the Carrisa Plains utility central power plant in California  
from 1984-1989 or so, as similar to 16-2000s but with the 3 rows of  
cells wired in parallel, to make about 7A at 4 1/2V nominal. That's  
why they're called Quad-Lams: it took four in series to charge a  
12V battery).


So we ended up with a 17-module array wired at 48V nominal, tied in  
with the new 48V array. What made it so special, other than that  
it's the only 17-module array I ever built? When we were all done  
and it was charging the 24V battery through the MX60, I alternately  
turned each array off and let the MX60 find its MPPT voltage: the  
two arrays were within one volt of each other. We got it right, and  
I have always been especially pleased with that job.


That's all.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[jay peltz]

Hi bob,

Wow now thats unusual!

So have you figured out a better charger or are using a IBE or similar?

jay
On Aug 3, 2008, at 6:02 PM, robert ellison wrote:

The 80 volt battery banks are not on inverters, sorry I didn't  
mention that.

They are 2 - 20 cell packs in series for 80 volts total.
These power a Zamboni. I didn't know what one of those was either  
when they called me to work on the batteries 10 or so years ago.
These are the machines that groom the ice on skating rinks, in most  
cases you can't use an engine inside a building anymore, so they  
are going electric.
I did put out some feelers a few years ago about building a 3 stage  
charger to charge them. Many are still using the transformer based,  
taper type charger we got away from years ago.


It's another cool toy I get to play with.

Later,
Bob

On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 12:31 PM, jay peltz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
HI Bob,

What are you using 80v battery banks for or which inverters anyway?

Would be great for larger systems.

thanks,
jay
peltz power


On Aug 1, 2008, at 10:18 PM, robert ellison wrote:

When i went to an SEI class at the Trojan factory one of the  
points mentioned was that the best way to get the lowest cost per  
watt from the battery bank
(T-105's were at the time the lowest) was to cycle them to 80%  
discharge then fill them all the way up. Not feasible in an off  
grid system at all.
We get more years life by just taking off the top 20 - 25% and  
returning it daily.


My battery distributor says that an industrial deep cycle battery  
needs to be cycled occasionaly to prevent them developing a  
"memory" so to speak.
I recommend to my customers that they occasionally let them run  
down to 50 -60% DOD and fill them back up with an EQ charge to  
stir up the electrolyte so you can get an accurate reading with a  
hydrometer.
Stratification will throw off the gravity readings unless they get  
stirred up occasionally.
I have pulled apart batteries that did not get an EQ and found the  
bottom of the plates wore out and the top still looking reasonably  
good. That is from the acid being a lot stronger at the bottom  
than the top and just working on the bottom of the plates in the  
battery. This is not a "fun" project and usually results in some  
trashed clothes, rubber suit or not.


I have 80 volt battery packs that get cycled to 70-80% DOD daily  
for 5 months a year then sit for 7 months with just a couple  
freshening charges and last 6 - 7 years till wore out, some of  
these are hi acid batteries that are in the specific gravity range  
or 1.325 or more when fully charged instead of the usual 1.265  
-1.270 that we are used to seeing.


I am not a battery "expert" I just have several big banks that I  
maintain and have formed some opinions over the last 15 or so years.
I have also experienced wearing out a set of L-16's by hitting the  
end of their cycle life in just over a year. It was way too small  
a battery bank and got cycled fully almost daily hitting it's  
cycle life limit far sooner than a larger bank would have if  
treated well.


Good night,
Bob





On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 12:01 AM, jay peltz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Robert,

When you mention cycling batteries, are you saying that batteries  
in a offgrid system that are being cycled 15-25% a day should be  
cycled even deeper than that?


Thanks,

jay
peltz power

On Aug 1, 2008, at 8:36 PM, robert ellison wrote:

A couple things that I haver noticed in the past, sometimes  
batteries like to be cycled, shut off the controllers and run  
them down, then charge them up fully and then give them an eq  
charge till it comes up the peak voltage and hold it there as it  
(sometimes) slowly rises. Any of these thoughts are superseded by  
Jamie if he has any thoughts.


Also, if you have not given them an eq in a while it might take  
longer than the available solar time has to get them to the top  
and hold them there..

Have the controllers settings changed?

Bob
On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Allan Sindelar  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Wrenches,
In late 2003 we installed a 24V set of Rolls-Surrette 4-KS-21PS  
6V 1104 A/hr batteries in the off-grid system of a long-time  
client. The client's system had a democracy array of around 800  
watts of tracked PV. In early 2005 we added 1,280 watts of  
additional PV, and the client hasn't run the generator since; the  
system rarely drops below 80% and fills to 100% most days in  
sunny New Mexico. Batteries are located in a basement, so  
temperatures stay relatively constant, although it will vary  
slightly seasonally. MX60 controller is temperature compensated,  
with 29.6 VDC bulk and 31.4 VDC EQ set points.


The problem is that the client reports being unable to achieve  
previous EQ voltages, and this inability appears to be a new  
development. The system is otherwise performing well. As the  
client is sharp and pays close attention to the system's  
operation, I'm not ready t

Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[robert ellison]

The 80 volt battery banks are not on inverters, sorry I didn't mention that.
They are 2 - 20 cell packs in series for 80 volts total.
These power a Zamboni. I didn't know what one of those was either when they
called me to work on the batteries 10 or so years ago.
These are the machines that groom the ice on skating rinks, in most cases
you can't use an engine inside a building anymore, so they are going
electric. I did put out some feelers a few years ago about building a 3
stage charger to charge them. Many are still using the transformer based,
taper type charger we got away from years ago.

It's another cool toy I get to play with.

Later,
Bob

On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 12:31 PM, jay peltz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> HI Bob,
> What are you using 80v battery banks for or which inverters anyway?
>
> Would be great for larger systems.
>
> thanks,
> jay
> peltz power
>
>
>  On Aug 1, 2008, at 10:18 PM, robert ellison wrote:
>
>  When i went to an SEI class at the Trojan factory one of the points
> mentioned was that the best way to get the lowest cost per watt from the
> battery bank
> (T-105's were at the time the lowest) was to cycle them to 80% discharge
> then fill them all the way up. Not feasible in an off grid system at all.
> We get more years life by just taking off the top 20 - 25% and returning it
> daily.
>
> My battery distributor says that an industrial deep cycle battery needs to
> be cycled occasionaly to prevent them developing a "memory" so to speak.
> I recommend to my customers that they occasionally let them run down to 50
> -60% DOD and fill them back up with an EQ charge to stir up the electrolyte
> so you can get an accurate reading with a hydrometer.
> Stratification will throw off the gravity readings unless they get stirred
> up occasionally.
> I have pulled apart batteries that did not get an EQ and found the bottom
> of the plates wore out and the top still looking reasonably good. That is
> from the acid being a lot stronger at the bottom than the top and just
> working on the bottom of the plates in the battery. This is not a "fun"
> project and usually results in some trashed clothes, rubber suit or not.
>
> I have 80 volt battery packs that get cycled to 70-80% DOD daily for 5
> months a year then sit for 7 months with just a couple freshening charges
> and last 6 - 7 years till wore out, some of these are hi acid batteries that
> are in the specific gravity range or 1.325 or more when fully charged
> instead of the usual 1.265 -1.270 that we are used to seeing.
>
> I am not a battery "expert" I just have several big banks that I maintain
> and have formed some opinions over the last 15 or so years.
> I have also experienced wearing out a set of L-16's by hitting the end of
> their cycle life in just over a year. It was way too small a battery bank
> and got cycled fully almost daily hitting it's cycle life limit far
> sooner than a larger bank would have if treated well.
>
> Good night,
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 12:01 AM, jay peltz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Robert,
>> When you mention cycling batteries, are you saying that batteries in a
>> offgrid system that are being cycled 15-25% a day should be cycled even
>> deeper than that?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> jay
>> peltz power
>>  On Aug 1, 2008, at 8:36 PM, robert ellison wrote:
>>
>>  A couple things that I haver noticed in the past, sometimes batteries
>> like to be cycled, shut off the controllers and run them down, then charge
>> them up fully and then give them an eq charge till it comes up the peak
>> voltage and hold it there as it (sometimes) slowly rises. Any of these
>> thoughts are superseded by Jamie if he has any thoughts.
>>
>> Also, if you have not given them an eq in a while it might take longer
>> than the available solar time has to get them to the top and hold them
>> there..
>> Have the controllers settings changed?
>>
>> Bob
>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Allan Sindelar <
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>>  Wrenches,
>>> In late 2003 we installed a 24V set of Rolls-Surrette 4-KS-21PS 6V 1104
>>> A/hr batteries in the off-grid system of a long-time client. The client's
>>> system had a democracy array of around 800 watts of tracked PV. In early
>>> 2005 we added 1,280 watts of additional PV, and the client hasn't run the
>>> generator since; the system rarely drops below 80% and fills to 100% most
>>> days in sunny New Mexico. Batteries are located in a basement, so
>>> temperatures stay relatively constant, although it will vary slightly
>>> seasonally. MX60 controller is temperature compensated, with 29.6 VDC bulk
>>> and 31.4 VDC EQ set points.
>>>
>>> The problem is that the client reports being unable to achieve previous
>>> EQ voltages, and this inability appears to be a new development. The system
>>> is otherwise performing well. As the client is sharp and pays close
>>> attention to the system's operation, I'm not ready to blame user ignorance
>>> (with one possible excep

Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[Allan Sindelar]

Jay,
You're right about leaving off the post at the bottom - whoops. It's at the
bottom here.
 
About voltage drop: I meant only that by running the array at a higher
voltage than the batteries, there could never be sufficient hot-weather and
undersized-wire voltage drop to prevent the array from exceeding the EQ
voltage of the batteries. This is most often a potential problem with 12V
systems. I mentioned it only to eliminate it as a possible cause of this
situation.
 
The Surrette Tech Bulletin 614 is available for download at
http://surrette.com/files/BU-RS-614.pdf. My understanding is that this
bulletin is the direct result of the complaints on this list about two years
ago about Surrette battery performance and life. 
 
Allan
 
-Original Message-
From: jay peltz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 1:41 PM
To: Allan Sindelar
Subject: Fwd: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question


HI Allan, 


You mention about a Surrette tech bulletin, I can't seem to find it? Can you
tell me where it might be on their site?

Also I"m curious about you saying that hot modules isn't going to affect
voltage drop.
Sure it will.  If the wire is upsized for the lower voltages from hot
weather, then you've compensated for it, but there is still added voltage
drop.

And about the adding new panels to old? I didn't see the link/post at the
bottom?
 Thanks, jay 
 
OK, the story,
This client had started off-grid in the early nineties with a tight budget.
He and his wife would add modules as they could afford them, usually used.
The built a homemade tracker with a Wattsun SA controller and two linear
actuators, using a DPDT momentary switch to adjust elevation seasonally.
Over time the tracker filled out with eight Arco 16-2000s, nine Carrizo
(Arco) M52L 5V Quad-Lams, two BP 275s, and two old square whatsises with 2"
cells from the seventies. 
 
Eventually their income increased and their house and house loads got
bigger. They asked us to upgrade their array, which eventually led to the 8
160W modules I added on a pole-top array. There were several catches,
though:
1. They wanted to keep as much as possible of the original "democracy
tracker" in operation;
2. The house had grown over the years, and the existing tracker had to be
moved 50' farther away;
3. The balance-of-system was still in the original basement, now
inaccessible from the outside, as the house had been expanded bit by bit in
all directions. 
4. The #2 (or 2/0, I can't recall) USE copper array input wires had been
built over and couldn't be replaced; we had to use them.
 
We dismantled the tracker and moved the pole (yep, lifted pole, concrete and
all and set it in a new, larger hole with more concrete). We put a 3R j-box
where the old pole had been and trenched to the new locations. After playing
with different calculations, we changed the old tracked array as follows: 
1. We added two BP 380s (the closest we could get then to the older 275s)
and wired them as one 48V string;
2. We dumped the whatsises, which had low output;
3. Now I'm trying to remember: I think I wired the four 16-2000s (originally
2.2A at 12V) in parallel, then wired this set of four in series with the
nine Quad-Lams (think of M52Ls, originally used in the Carrisa Plains
utility central power plant in California from 1984-1989 or so, as similar
to 16-2000s but with the 3 rows of cells wired in parallel, to make about 7A
at 4 1/2V nominal. That's why they're called Quad-Lams: it took four in
series to charge a 12V battery). 
 
So we ended up with a 17-module array wired at 48V nominal, tied in with the
new 48V array. What made it so special, other than that it's the only
17-module array I ever built? When we were all done and it was charging the
24V battery through the MX60, I alternately turned each array off and let
the MX60 find its MPPT voltage: the two arrays were within one volt of each
other. We got it right, and I have always been especially pleased with that
job.
 
That's all. 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[Allan Sindelar]

Wrenches,
Thank you for the whole set of responses. 

I haven't been to the site yet, but plan to stop there this week. As the
symptoms are not easily explained, I wanted to put the problem out for ideas
here first, to reduce the chance of missing something. I will report back
with what I learn.

I will first check whether the 0.4 V discrepancy is related to battery
temperature. It seems to me that the simplest way to do this is to check the
MX60 settings during equalization. If the measured voltage is at the MX60's
temperature-compensated EQ voltage, then a warm environment is the apparent
cause of the reduced voltage.

To answer a few of your many questions and fill in some details:
1. As I noted in my original post, the MX60 is temperature compensated. The
VFX3524 is too, although the client tells me he hasn't run the generator
since we added the 1.28 kW array.
2. To the best of my knowledge, the charge controll settings have not
changed (that would be too easy!). The client hasn't changed settings, and
we take care of all of their service needs.
3. The client equalizes regularly, as he notes in his description: last EQ
(to 31.1 v) was in June.
4. The array is wired 48V, so hot modules and/or undersized wire isn't a
voltage-limitation issue. (For the curious, I had a fun time adding new to
old array; story at the bottom of this message, to avoid boring Wrenches
with better things to do than follow this post.)
5. There are 6 4V batteries, 12 cells. I had conservatively figured the
charge rate at about C/20, so the charge rate is adequate for off-grid. I
most likely have the MX60 set to two hours absorption with a 2% done amps
override to lessen gassing. After Surrette's tech bulletin about batteries
in off-grid applications (recommending higher charge voltages and longer
absorption times) came out, I started setting longer absorption times; I
will go back and increase the absorption time on these to three hours, while
keeping the 2% done amps in place. Would anyone argue with this setting
change?
6. Tri-Metric voltage readings usually vary from MX60 readings, yes, but
they don't tend to change over time. This situation is presented as a recent
change from consistent past performance.
7. The client has not checked individual cell voltages or specific
gravities. I will do that when I go there on a service call and will report
back.
8. Re the quick C/5 charge idea: I would ask Jamie Surrette for his
recommendation here. For sure, it hasn't happened; the client says the
generator (an older Honda 5500, I think) needs service before it will start.
I'll advise him not to sell it (as he plans) until we have resolved this and
gotten Jamie's advice on battery care.
9. Miscalibration of the MX60 is unlikely but possible, and I will check
this when on site.

Thank you to the many of you who responded. Jamie Surrette responded
off-list too, asking about battery temperature. I will report back after
checking all of the above.
Allan at Positive Energy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis
Creswell

The temp sensor suggestion makes a lot of sense.

Also, what is the specific gravity?  I suspect they are sulphated, maybe
severely.  But that's easily remedied with an equalization charge with the
generator.

We have a 24v single string of the very same batteries in an off grid system
and if they don't get at least quarterly the max charge possible from a dual
stack of SW4024's and 12kW Kohler funny things start to happen.  That's
about 200 amps depending on a few factors.  Voltage and trimetric will
indicate a full charge but the SG is way down below 50% and of course SG
typically trump other indicators. (IE, water wasn't just added)

Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[Travis Creswell]

The temp sensor suggestion makes a lot of sense.

Also, what is the specific gravity?  I suspect they are sulphated, maybe
severely.  But that's easily remedied with an equalization charge with the
generator.

We have a 24v single string of the very same batteries in an off grid system
and if they don't get at least quarterly the max charge possible from a dual
stack of SW4024's and 12kW Kohler funny things start to happen.  That's
about 200 amps depending on a few factors.  Voltage and trimetric will
indicate a full charge but the SG is way down below 50% and of course SG
typically trump other indicators. (IE, water wasn’t just added)

Warning: Be very careful about equalizing with the generator in the summer
time.  I "know a guy" who had a set HUP's do a thermal run away from "him"
just last summer and "he" really thought he was watching things closely.
Rob Shappell called "him" back at 9PM Rob's time from a birthday party on a
Friday night to explain what happened to meer, I mean that guy I know.
Much appreciation to Rob and Jean! They are great at supporting their
product.

Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 11:27 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

I presume there is a temp sensor on the CC and inverter.

And if the battery temps are higher then the voltage termination  
would be lower which could explain it.

Or,  I have seen them get off calibration which would cause a  
difference in charge set points.

jay

peltz power


On Aug 2, 2008, at 10:29 AM, Drake Chamberlin wrote:

> Hi Allan,
>
> On a previous thread, it seems that Surrette batteries like a fast  
> charge periodically.  At one time (as I recall) is was recommended  
> to give them a C/5 once a week, but the company said that was not  
> necessary.  I don't know of C/13 to C/18 charges would be enough.   
> Can your customer run the generator for a quick charge after  
> cycling them down?
>
> Drake
>
> At 08:29 AM 8/2/2008, you wrote:
>> Did this customer check the voltage of the individual batteries/ 
>> cells? Maybe there is a weak cell developing. Sometimes EQing can  
>> take a long time. I do not "buy" that batteries need to be cycled  
>> to stay healthy.
>>
>> Todd
>>
>> jay peltz wrote:
>>
>>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[jay peltz]

HI Bob,

What are you using 80v battery banks for or which inverters anyway?

Would be great for larger systems.

thanks,
jay
peltz power


On Aug 1, 2008, at 10:18 PM, robert ellison wrote:

When i went to an SEI class at the Trojan factory one of the points  
mentioned was that the best way to get the lowest cost per watt  
from the battery bank
(T-105's were at the time the lowest) was to cycle them to 80%  
discharge then fill them all the way up. Not feasible in an off  
grid system at all.
We get more years life by just taking off the top 20 - 25% and  
returning it daily.


My battery distributor says that an industrial deep cycle battery  
needs to be cycled occasionaly to prevent them developing a  
"memory" so to speak.
I recommend to my customers that they occasionally let them run  
down to 50 -60% DOD and fill them back up with an EQ charge to stir  
up the electrolyte so you can get an accurate reading with a  
hydrometer.
Stratification will throw off the gravity readings unless they get  
stirred up occasionally.
I have pulled apart batteries that did not get an EQ and found the  
bottom of the plates wore out and the top still looking reasonably  
good. That is from the acid being a lot stronger at the bottom than  
the top and just working on the bottom of the plates in the  
battery. This is not a "fun" project and usually results in some  
trashed clothes, rubber suit or not.


I have 80 volt battery packs that get cycled to 70-80% DOD daily  
for 5 months a year then sit for 7 months with just a couple  
freshening charges and last 6 - 7 years till wore out, some of  
these are hi acid batteries that are in the specific gravity range  
or 1.325 or more when fully charged instead of the usual 1.265  
-1.270 that we are used to seeing.


I am not a battery "expert" I just have several big banks that I  
maintain and have formed some opinions over the last 15 or so years.
I have also experienced wearing out a set of L-16's by hitting the  
end of their cycle life in just over a year. It was way too small a  
battery bank and got cycled fully almost daily hitting it's cycle  
life limit far sooner than a larger bank would have if treated well.


Good night,
Bob





On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 12:01 AM, jay peltz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Robert,

When you mention cycling batteries, are you saying that batteries  
in a offgrid system that are being cycled 15-25% a day should be  
cycled even deeper than that?


Thanks,

jay
peltz power

On Aug 1, 2008, at 8:36 PM, robert ellison wrote:

A couple things that I haver noticed in the past, sometimes  
batteries like to be cycled, shut off the controllers and run them  
down, then charge them up fully and then give them an eq charge  
till it comes up the peak voltage and hold it there as it  
(sometimes) slowly rises. Any of these thoughts are superseded by  
Jamie if he has any thoughts.


Also, if you have not given them an eq in a while it might take  
longer than the available solar time has to get them to the top  
and hold them there..

Have the controllers settings changed?

Bob
On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Allan Sindelar  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Wrenches,
In late 2003 we installed a 24V set of Rolls-Surrette 4-KS-21PS 6V  
1104 A/hr batteries in the off-grid system of a long-time client.  
The client's system had a democracy array of around 800 watts of  
tracked PV. In early 2005 we added 1,280 watts of additional PV,  
and the client hasn't run the generator since; the system rarely  
drops below 80% and fills to 100% most days in sunny New Mexico.  
Batteries are located in a basement, so temperatures stay  
relatively constant, although it will vary slightly seasonally.  
MX60 controller is temperature compensated, with 29.6 VDC bulk and  
31.4 VDC EQ set points.


The problem is that the client reports being unable to achieve  
previous EQ voltages, and this inability appears to be a new  
development. The system is otherwise performing well. As the  
client is sharp and pays close attention to the system's  
operation, I'm not ready to blame user ignorance (with one  
possible exception; read on). This may be an issue of seasonally  
warm temperatures, but I'm not sure this would explain the full  
0.4 VDC reduction in voltage. I told him that I would post his  
problem to this list, and also request advice from Surrette Battery.


Here is the client's description of the symptoms:
I'm concerned that I am unable to equalize batteries at this  
time.  Up
until June of this year the Tri-Metric readings during equalizing  
indicated
holding voltage at 31.1, with maximum amps gain of around 52.
Three weeks

ago, when set on equalize, the maximum voltage reading was 30.7, with
maximum amps of 46; this was reached around noon, and by around  
1:30 pm
voltage/amps began its typical afternoon drop-off.  I attempted  
equalizing
on two other occasions since then--the last time this past  
Saturday, with
clear skies up until mi

Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[jay peltz]

I presume there is a temp sensor on the CC and inverter.

And if the battery temps are higher then the voltage termination  
would be lower which could explain it.


Or,  I have seen them get off calibration which would cause a  
difference in charge set points.


jay

peltz power


On Aug 2, 2008, at 10:29 AM, Drake Chamberlin wrote:


Hi Allan,

On a previous thread, it seems that Surrette batteries like a fast  
charge periodically.  At one time (as I recall) is was recommended  
to give them a C/5 once a week, but the company said that was not  
necessary.  I don't know of C/13 to C/18 charges would be enough.   
Can your customer run the generator for a quick charge after  
cycling them down?


Drake

At 08:29 AM 8/2/2008, you wrote:
Did this customer check the voltage of the individual batteries/ 
cells? Maybe there is a weak cell developing. Sometimes EQing can  
take a long time. I do not "buy" that batteries need to be cycled  
to stay healthy.


Todd

jay peltz wrote:




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[Drake Chamberlin]

Hi Allan,

On a previous thread, it seems that Surrette batteries like a fast 
charge periodically.  At one time (as I recall) is was recommended to 
give them a C/5 once a week, but the company said that was not 
necessary.  I don't know of C/13 to C/18 charges would be 
enough.  Can your customer run the generator for a quick charge after 
cycling them down?


Drake

At 08:29 AM 8/2/2008, you wrote:
Did this customer check the voltage of the individual 
batteries/cells? Maybe there is a weak cell developing. Sometimes 
EQing can take a long time. I do not "buy" that batteries need to be 
cycled to stay healthy.


Todd

jay peltz wrote:


Hi Robert,

When you mention cycling batteries, are you saying that batteries 
in a offgrid system that are being cycled 15-25% a day should be 
cycled even deeper than that?


Thanks,

jay peltz power
On Aug 1, 2008, at 8:36 PM, robert ellison wrote:

A couple things that I haver noticed in the past, sometimes 
batteries like to be cycled, shut off the controllers and run them 
down, then charge them up fully and then give them an eq charge 
till it comes up the peak voltage and hold it there as it 
(sometimes) slowly rises. Any of these thoughts are superseded by 
Jamie if he has any thoughts.  Also, if you have not given them an 
eq in a while it might take longer than the available solar time 
has to get them to the top and hold them there..

Have the controllers settings changed?

Bob
On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Allan Sindelar 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:


Wrenches,
In late 2003 we installed a 24V set of Rolls-Surrette 4-KS-21PS
6V 1104 A/hr batteries in the off-grid system of a long-time
client. The client's system had a democracy array of around 800
watts of tracked PV. In early 2005 we added 1,280 watts of
additional PV, and the client hasn't run the generator since; the
system rarely drops below 80% and fills to 100% most days in
sunny New Mexico. Batteries are located in a basement, so
temperatures stay relatively constant, although it will vary
slightly seasonally. MX60 controller is temperature compensated,
with 29.6 VDC bulk and 31.4 VDC EQ set points.

The problem is that the client reports being unable to achieve
previous EQ voltages, and this inability appears to be a new
development. The system is otherwise performing well. As the
client is sharp and pays close attention to the system's
operation, I'm not ready to blame user ignorance (with one
possible exception; read on). This may be an issue of seasonally
warm temperatures, but I'm not sure this would explain the full
0.4 VDC reduction in voltage. I told him that I would post his
problem to this list, and also request advice from Surrette Battery.

Here is the client's description of the symptoms:
I'm concerned that I am unable to equalize batteries at this
time.  Up
until June of this year the Tri-Metric readings during equalizing
indicated
holding voltage at 31.1, with maximum amps gain of around 52.
Three weeks
ago, when set on equalize, the maximum voltage reading was 30.7,
with
maximum amps of 46; this was reached around noon, and by around
1:30 pm
voltage/amps began its typical afternoon drop-off.  I attempted
equalizing
on two other occasions since then--the last time this past
Saturday, with
clear skies up until mid-afternoon--but having the same 
results. So, the

question is: are my batteries beginning their decline? We've had
this set
for 4 1/2 years, so it would seem a bit too early for this, given
that these
batteries are expected to last 7-10 years.


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Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
740-448-7328
303-328-5533 



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[Todd Cory]

Did this customer check the voltage of the individual batteries/cells? 
Maybe there is a weak cell developing. Sometimes EQing can take a long 
time. I do not "buy" that batteries need to be cycled to stay healthy.


Todd

jay peltz wrote:


Hi Robert,

When you mention cycling batteries, are you saying that batteries in a 
offgrid system that are being cycled 15-25% a day should be cycled 
even deeper than that?


Thanks,

jay 
peltz power

On Aug 1, 2008, at 8:36 PM, robert ellison wrote:

A couple things that I haver noticed in the past, sometimes batteries 
like to be cycled, shut off the controllers and run them down, then 
charge them up fully and then give them an eq charge till it comes up 
the peak voltage and hold it there as it (sometimes) slowly rises. 
Any of these thoughts are superseded by Jamie if he has any thoughts. 
 
Also, if you have not given them an eq in a while it might take 
longer than the available solar time has to get them to the top and 
hold them there..

Have the controllers settings changed?
 
Bob
On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Allan Sindelar 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


Wrenches,
In late 2003 we installed a 24V set of Rolls-Surrette 4-KS-21PS
6V 1104 A/hr batteries in the off-grid system of a long-time
client. The client's system had a democracy array of around 800
watts of tracked PV. In early 2005 we added 1,280 watts of
additional PV, and the client hasn't run the generator since; the
system rarely drops below 80% and fills to 100% most days in
sunny New Mexico. Batteries are located in a basement, so
temperatures stay relatively constant, although it will vary
slightly seasonally. MX60 controller is temperature compensated,
with 29.6 VDC bulk and 31.4 VDC EQ set points.

The problem is that the client reports being unable to achieve
previous EQ voltages, and this inability appears to be a new
development. The system is otherwise performing well. As the
client is sharp and pays close attention to the system's
operation, I'm not ready to blame user ignorance (with one
possible exception; read on). This may be an issue of seasonally
warm temperatures, but I'm not sure this would explain the full
0.4 VDC reduction in voltage. I told him that I would post his
problem to this list, and also request advice from Surrette Battery.

Here is the client's description of the symptoms:
I'm concerned that I am unable to equalize batteries at this
time.  Up
until June of this year the Tri-Metric readings during equalizing
indicated
holding voltage at 31.1, with maximum amps gain of around 52.  
Three weeks

ago, when set on equalize, the maximum voltage reading was 30.7,
with
maximum amps of 46; this was reached around noon, and by around
1:30 pm
voltage/amps began its typical afternoon drop-off.  I attempted
equalizing
on two other occasions since then--the last time this past
Saturday, with
clear skies up until mid-afternoon--but having the same results. 
So, the

question is: are my batteries beginning their decline? We've had
this set
for 4 1/2 years, so it would seem a bit too early for this, given
that these
batteries are expected to last 7-10 years.



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[David Palumbo]

Surrette Battery QuestionAllan,

These are (2) cell 4 volt batteries (4,416wh each battery (4v x 1104)),
correct? How many does your client have? I'll guess (6) of them, if that's
the case they have  26.5kWh of rated storage.
The pv array total is approx 2kW (about 60A rated current at max power).  So
depending on how the math is done the charge rate is C/13 (26.5kWh/2kW), or
C/18 (1104ah/60). I'm thinking that this is a good charge rate for New
Mexico. If the array and MX60 are working properly, and the client's are not
using more watt hours than the system is designed for, the batteries should
be getting adequate charging. As you know these Surrette's need to charge to
relatively higher voltages than other makes of lead acids. 29.6VDC sounds
good to me. Surrette may want that bulk raised a bit with older age cells if
performance is dipping?

A couple of additional thoughts. 1) TriMetric voltage readings can vary from
MX60 voltage readings which may account for that 31.1 to 31.4v difference.
2) Remind your client's that equalization questions are best answered by the
use of a hydrometer (or refractometer) to test the SG of every cell. If they
are relatively equal (within .015 basis points lowest cell to highest cell )
than your batteries are equalized and it really does not matter that the
voltage did not go up to some arbitrary number. It is more important that
lead acid cells are regularly fully charged at a high enough voltage to
significantly gas each cell for a long enough period of time. This is where
absorption time is so important. Equalize charges (controlled over voltage
charge) on a regular basis (every month or two) need to be done more on
systems that do not regularly reach their fully charged state as often as
they should. I coach my client's (and program their TriMetric's) to see to
it that their battery banks receive a full charge at least every 10 days.

Best,

Dave Palumbo
Independent Power LLC
Hyde Park, VT
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
  Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 10:19 PM
  To: RE Wrenches
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question


  Wrenches,
  In late 2003 we installed a 24V set of Rolls-Surrette 4-KS-21PS 6V 1104
A/hr batteries in the off-grid system of a long-time client. The client's
system had a democracy array of around 800 watts of tracked PV. In early
2005 we added 1,280 watts of additional PV, and the client hasn't run the
generator since; the system rarely drops below 80% and fills to 100% most
days in sunny New Mexico. Batteries are located in a basement, so
temperatures stay relatively constant, although it will vary slightly
seasonally. MX60 controller is temperature compensated, with 29.6 VDC bulk
and 31.4 VDC EQ set points.

  The problem is that the client reports being unable to achieve previous EQ
voltages, and this inability appears to be a new development. The system is
otherwise performing well. As the client is sharp and pays close attention
to the system's operation, I'm not ready to blame user ignorance (with one
possible exception; read on). This may be an issue of seasonally warm
temperatures, but I'm not sure this would explain the full 0.4 VDC reduction
in voltage. I told him that I would post his problem to this list, and also
request advice from Surrette Battery.

  Here is the client's description of the symptoms:
  I'm concerned that I am unable to equalize batteries at this time.  Up
  until June of this year the Tri-Metric readings during equalizing
indicated
  holding voltage at 31.1, with maximum amps gain of around 52.   Three
weeks
  ago, when set on equalize, the maximum voltage reading was 30.7, with
  maximum amps of 46; this was reached around noon, and by around 1:30 pm
  voltage/amps began its typical afternoon drop-off.  I attempted equalizing
  on two other occasions since then--the last time this past Saturday, with
  clear skies up until mid-afternoon--but having the same results.  So, the
  question is: are my batteries beginning their decline? We've had this set
  for 4 1/2 years, so it would seem a bit too early for this, given that
these
  batteries are expected to last 7-10 years.

  Second issue, possibly related:

  On another matter, I have been using deionized water for the batteries for
  as long as we've been using photovoltaics (since 1991), as it is my
  understanding that deioinized water is virtually the same as distilled
  water--I just checked Wikipedia on this (using "deionized and distilled
  water" as the search phrase), and this appears to be the case.

  I don't know the answer to this question, as we have always recommended
distilled water only in batteries, and have never faced this question.

  Any help would be appreciated.

  Allan Sindelar
  allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP certified solar PV installer
  Positiv

Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[Richard L Ratico]

Allan,

The timing of the problem certainly points to your high seasonal temperatures as
at least a contributing factor. What is your array voltage? If it is 24V, can
you relatively easily rewire for 36 or 48V? 

Dick

Solarwind Electric
Bradford,VT

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[robert ellison]

When i went to an SEI class at the Trojan factory one of the points
mentioned was that the best way to get the lowest cost per watt from the
battery bank
(T-105's were at the time the lowest) was to cycle them to 80% discharge
then fill them all the way up. Not feasible in an off grid system at all.
We get more years life by just taking off the top 20 - 25% and returning it
daily.

My battery distributor says that an industrial deep cycle battery needs to
be cycled occasionaly to prevent them developing a "memory" so to speak.
I recommend to my customers that they occasionally let them run down to 50
-60% DOD and fill them back up with an EQ charge to stir up the electrolyte
so you can get an accurate reading with a hydrometer.
Stratification will throw off the gravity readings unless they get stirred
up occasionally.
I have pulled apart batteries that did not get an EQ and found the bottom of
the plates wore out and the top still looking reasonably good. That is from
the acid being a lot stronger at the bottom than the top and just working on
the bottom of the plates in the battery. This is not a "fun" project and
usually results in some trashed clothes, rubber suit or not.

I have 80 volt battery packs that get cycled to 70-80% DOD daily for 5
months a year then sit for 7 months with just a couple freshening charges
and last 6 - 7 years till wore out, some of these are hi acid batteries that
are in the specific gravity range or 1.325 or more when fully charged
instead of the usual 1.265 -1.270 that we are used to seeing.

I am not a battery "expert" I just have several big banks that I maintain
and have formed some opinions over the last 15 or so years.
I have also experienced wearing out a set of L-16's by hitting the end of
their cycle life in just over a year. It was way too small a battery bank
and got cycled fully almost daily hitting it's cycle life limit far
sooner than a larger bank would have if treated well.

Good night,
Bob





On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 12:01 AM, jay peltz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi Robert,
> When you mention cycling batteries, are you saying that batteries in a
> offgrid system that are being cycled 15-25% a day should be cycled even
> deeper than that?
>
> Thanks,
>
> jay
> peltz power
>  On Aug 1, 2008, at 8:36 PM, robert ellison wrote:
>
>  A couple things that I haver noticed in the past, sometimes batteries
> like to be cycled, shut off the controllers and run them down, then charge
> them up fully and then give them an eq charge till it comes up the peak
> voltage and hold it there as it (sometimes) slowly rises. Any of these
> thoughts are superseded by Jamie if he has any thoughts.
>
> Also, if you have not given them an eq in a while it might take longer than
> the available solar time has to get them to the top and hold them there..
> Have the controllers settings changed?
>
> Bob
> On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Allan Sindelar <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>  Wrenches,
>> In late 2003 we installed a 24V set of Rolls-Surrette 4-KS-21PS 6V 1104
>> A/hr batteries in the off-grid system of a long-time client. The client's
>> system had a democracy array of around 800 watts of tracked PV. In early
>> 2005 we added 1,280 watts of additional PV, and the client hasn't run the
>> generator since; the system rarely drops below 80% and fills to 100% most
>> days in sunny New Mexico. Batteries are located in a basement, so
>> temperatures stay relatively constant, although it will vary slightly
>> seasonally. MX60 controller is temperature compensated, with 29.6 VDC bulk
>> and 31.4 VDC EQ set points.
>>
>> The problem is that the client reports being unable to achieve previous EQ
>> voltages, and this inability appears to be a new development. The system is
>> otherwise performing well. As the client is sharp and pays close attention
>> to the system's operation, I'm not ready to blame user ignorance (with one
>> possible exception; read on). This may be an issue of seasonally warm
>> temperatures, but I'm not sure this would explain the full 0.4 VDC reduction
>> in voltage. I told him that I would post his problem to this list, and also
>> request advice from Surrette Battery.
>>
>> Here is the client's description of the symptoms:
>> I'm concerned that I am unable to equalize batteries at this time.  Up
>> until June of this year the Tri-Metric readings during equalizing
>> indicated
>> holding voltage at 31.1, with maximum amps gain of around 52.   Three
>> weeks
>> ago, when set on equalize, the maximum voltage reading was 30.7, with
>> maximum amps of 46; this was reached around noon, and by around 1:30 pm
>> voltage/amps began its typical afternoon drop-off.  I attempted equalizing
>> on two other occasions since then--the last time this past Saturday, with
>> clear skies up until mid-afternoon--but having the same results.  So, the
>> question is: are my batteries beginning their decline? We've had this set
>> for 4 1/2 years, so it would seem a bit too early 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[jay peltz]

Hi Robert,

When you mention cycling batteries, are you saying that batteries in  
a offgrid system that are being cycled 15-25% a day should be cycled  
even deeper than that?


Thanks,

jay
peltz power
On Aug 1, 2008, at 8:36 PM, robert ellison wrote:

A couple things that I haver noticed in the past, sometimes  
batteries like to be cycled, shut off the controllers and run them  
down, then charge them up fully and then give them an eq charge  
till it comes up the peak voltage and hold it there as it  
(sometimes) slowly rises. Any of these thoughts are superseded by  
Jamie if he has any thoughts.


Also, if you have not given them an eq in a while it might take  
longer than the available solar time has to get them to the top and  
hold them there..

Have the controllers settings changed?

Bob
On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Allan Sindelar  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Wrenches,
In late 2003 we installed a 24V set of Rolls-Surrette 4-KS-21PS 6V  
1104 A/hr batteries in the off-grid system of a long-time client.  
The client's system had a democracy array of around 800 watts of  
tracked PV. In early 2005 we added 1,280 watts of additional PV,  
and the client hasn't run the generator since; the system rarely  
drops below 80% and fills to 100% most days in sunny New Mexico.  
Batteries are located in a basement, so temperatures stay  
relatively constant, although it will vary slightly seasonally.  
MX60 controller is temperature compensated, with 29.6 VDC bulk and  
31.4 VDC EQ set points.


The problem is that the client reports being unable to achieve  
previous EQ voltages, and this inability appears to be a new  
development. The system is otherwise performing well. As the client  
is sharp and pays close attention to the system's operation, I'm  
not ready to blame user ignorance (with one possible exception;  
read on). This may be an issue of seasonally warm temperatures, but  
I'm not sure this would explain the full 0.4 VDC reduction in  
voltage. I told him that I would post his problem to this list, and  
also request advice from Surrette Battery.


Here is the client's description of the symptoms:
I'm concerned that I am unable to equalize batteries at this time.  Up
until June of this year the Tri-Metric readings during equalizing  
indicated
holding voltage at 31.1, with maximum amps gain of around 52.
Three weeks

ago, when set on equalize, the maximum voltage reading was 30.7, with
maximum amps of 46; this was reached around noon, and by around  
1:30 pm
voltage/amps began its typical afternoon drop-off.  I attempted  
equalizing
on two other occasions since then--the last time this past  
Saturday, with
clear skies up until mid-afternoon--but having the same results.   
So, the
question is: are my batteries beginning their decline? We've had  
this set
for 4 1/2 years, so it would seem a bit too early for this, given  
that these

batteries are expected to last 7-10 years.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[robert ellison]

A couple things that I haver noticed in the past, sometimes batteries like
to be cycled, shut off the controllers and run them down, then charge them
up fully and then give them an eq charge till it comes up the peak voltage
and hold it there as it (sometimes) slowly rises. Any of these thoughts are
superseded by Jamie if he has any thoughts.

Also, if you have not given them an eq in a while it might take longer than
the available solar time has to get them to the top and hold them there..
Have the controllers settings changed?

Bob
On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Allan Sindelar <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Wrenches,
> In late 2003 we installed a 24V set of Rolls-Surrette 4-KS-21PS 6V 1104
> A/hr batteries in the off-grid system of a long-time client. The client's
> system had a democracy array of around 800 watts of tracked PV. In early
> 2005 we added 1,280 watts of additional PV, and the client hasn't run the
> generator since; the system rarely drops below 80% and fills to 100% most
> days in sunny New Mexico. Batteries are located in a basement, so
> temperatures stay relatively constant, although it will vary slightly
> seasonally. MX60 controller is temperature compensated, with 29.6 VDC bulk
> and 31.4 VDC EQ set points.
>
> The problem is that the client reports being unable to achieve previous EQ
> voltages, and this inability appears to be a new development. The system is
> otherwise performing well. As the client is sharp and pays close attention
> to the system's operation, I'm not ready to blame user ignorance (with one
> possible exception; read on). This may be an issue of seasonally warm
> temperatures, but I'm not sure this would explain the full 0.4 VDC reduction
> in voltage. I told him that I would post his problem to this list, and also
> request advice from Surrette Battery.
>
> Here is the client's description of the symptoms:
> I'm concerned that I am unable to equalize batteries at this time.  Up
> until June of this year the Tri-Metric readings during equalizing indicated
> holding voltage at 31.1, with maximum amps gain of around 52.   Three weeks
> ago, when set on equalize, the maximum voltage reading was 30.7, with
> maximum amps of 46; this was reached around noon, and by around 1:30 pm
> voltage/amps began its typical afternoon drop-off.  I attempted equalizing
> on two other occasions since then--the last time this past Saturday, with
> clear skies up until mid-afternoon--but having the same results.  So, the
> question is: are my batteries beginning their decline? We've had this set
> for 4 1/2 years, so it would seem a bit too early for this, given that
> these
> batteries are expected to last 7-10 years.
>
> Second issue, possibly related:
>
> On another matter, I have been using deionized water for the batteries for
> as long as we've been using photovoltaics (since 1991), as it is my
> understanding that deioinized water is virtually the same as distilled
> water--I just checked Wikipedia on this (using "deionized and distilled
> water" as the search phrase), and this appears to be the case.
>
> I don't know the answer to this question, as we have always recommended
> distilled water only in batteries, and have never faced this question.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Allan Sindelar
> ***allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> NABCEP certified solar PV installer
> Positive Energy, Inc.
> 3225A Richards Lane
> Santa Fe NM 87507
> 505 424-1112
>
> Allan Sindelar
> ***allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> NABCEP certified solar PV installer
> Positive Energy, Inc.
> 3225A Richards Lane
> Santa Fe NM 87507
> 505 424-1112
>
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[RE-wrenches] Surrette Battery Question

[Allan Sindelar]

Wrenches,
In late 2003 we installed a 24V set of Rolls-Surrette 4-KS-21PS 6V 1104 A/hr
batteries in the off-grid system of a long-time client. The client's system
had a democracy array of around 800 watts of tracked PV. In early 2005 we
added 1,280 watts of additional PV, and the client hasn't run the generator
since; the system rarely drops below 80% and fills to 100% most days in
sunny New Mexico. Batteries are located in a basement, so temperatures stay
relatively constant, although it will vary slightly seasonally. MX60
controller is temperature compensated, with 29.6 VDC bulk and 31.4 VDC EQ
set points.

The problem is that the client reports being unable to achieve previous EQ
voltages, and this inability appears to be a new development. The system is
otherwise performing well. As the client is sharp and pays close attention
to the system's operation, I'm not ready to blame user ignorance (with one
possible exception; read on). This may be an issue of seasonally warm
temperatures, but I'm not sure this would explain the full 0.4 VDC reduction
in voltage. I told him that I would post his problem to this list, and also
request advice from Surrette Battery.

Here is the client's description of the symptoms:
I'm concerned that I am unable to equalize batteries at this time.  Up
until June of this year the Tri-Metric readings during equalizing indicated
holding voltage at 31.1, with maximum amps gain of around 52.   Three weeks
ago, when set on equalize, the maximum voltage reading was 30.7, with
maximum amps of 46; this was reached around noon, and by around 1:30 pm
voltage/amps began its typical afternoon drop-off.  I attempted equalizing
on two other occasions since then--the last time this past Saturday, with
clear skies up until mid-afternoon--but having the same results.  So, the
question is: are my batteries beginning their decline? We've had this set
for 4 1/2 years, so it would seem a bit too early for this, given that these
batteries are expected to last 7-10 years.

Second issue, possibly related:

On another matter, I have been using deionized water for the batteries for
as long as we've been using photovoltaics (since 1991), as it is my
understanding that deioinized water is virtually the same as distilled
water--I just checked Wikipedia on this (using "deionized and distilled
water" as the search phrase), and this appears to be the case.

I don't know the answer to this question, as we have always recommended
distilled water only in batteries, and have never faced this question.

Any help would be appreciated.

Allan Sindelar
allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com  
NABCEP certified solar PV installer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3225A Richards Lane
Santa Fe NM 87507
505 424-1112


Allan Sindelar
allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com  
NABCEP certified solar PV installer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3225A Richards Lane
Santa Fe NM 87507
505 424-1112

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