[RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Off-grid PV...Bad batch of KC120's
Hi Wrenches, Thanks for all your input. I took the advice of those wrenchers suggesting I had bad modules and am in the process of dealing with Kyocera - will update when I have received their final answer. My problem was that when I tested the modules they showed normal Voc and Isc. But I was testing them, albeit in direct sunlight, after storing them for the evening so they were cool and unloaded. When I tested them on the roof after being loaded up and exposed to higher temperatures, their performance diminished to nearly zero. So, after testing the mods on the ground, I thought I had production from my array and was suspect of the other components. I know my batteries are on their way out. But just how far out the door?...more testing... Eric Stikes SunHarvest___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Off-grid PV...Bad batch of KC120's
Eric, Did you check the dates on the label and compare to the dates I gave you? If they are in that period, don't wast any time, get the warranty process going. The ones in the date range that have failed will show about 10 volts open circuit. Sometimes one will show 21 Voc but on short circuit they will not produce current. It is very rare that KC-120's outside the date range fail. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Jun 4, 2012, at 10:21 AM, SunHarvest wrote: Hi Wrenches, Thanks for all your input. I took the advice of those wrenchers suggesting I had bad modules and am in the process of dealing with Kyocera - will update when I have received their final answer. My problem was that when I tested the modules they showed normal Voc and Isc. But I was testing them, albeit in direct sunlight, after storing them for the evening so they were cool and unloaded. When I tested them on the roof after being loaded up and exposed to higher temperatures, their performance diminished to nearly zero. So, after testing the mods on the ground, I thought I had production from my array and was suspect of the other components. I know my batteries are on their way out. But just how far out the door?...more testing... Eric Stikes SunHarvest ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Off-grid PV...second try with server up
Sorry. I have to re-post this as my local, small-town email provider's server crashed the day I sent this out. I couldn't receive any responses. Hi Wrenches, I inherited an off-grid PV system that seems to be significantly under producing. I have: 12 KC120's (~19V 7A each) paired up 2 in series, for 6 strings terminated on new 15A breakers in a new Midnite combiner, Output of combiner passes through a 60A breaker into a RV SolarBoost 50 charge controller. An SW4024 ties in the CC, a Kohler 8.5 Gen set, and a Yuasa 24V battery bank. My problem is that I never see more than about 5A (displayed at charge controller) coming off the array, even in full sun, regardless of the state of charge of the batteries. I figure I should see, at least once in a while, closer to between 20-30A. Batteries are, admittedly, passed their life expectancy as the system was installed in '02 and I am sure this is part of the problem. I'm thinking that if the batteries are at about 1/2 capacity (don't own a hydrometer...yet), the controller senses the batteries are near full SOC even at lower voltage (~24V) and is therefore attempting to trickle charge even in the bulk stage. Though this is not how the CC is supposed to function in bulk, obviously, I'm assuming the old batteries are altering the standard operating conditions of the system. I've adjusted the Bulk set point on the CC but that doesn't seem to make a difference. I doubt this is part of the problem but the generator is problematic as well (it has it's own array of maladies). Any insight is greatly appreciated. Thanks! Eric Stikes Owner SunHarvest Solar +1 (530) 798 - 3738 www.harvesthesun.com___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Off-grid PV...second try with server up
If you suspect the batteries are floating high and not taking charge, why don't you load up the inverter and see how much power you are getting from the PV system when there the inverter is fully loaded? If the PV output loads up nicely, then your batteries are gone. On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: Eric, To see the responses to your original post, go here: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On May 29, 2012, at 9:03 AM, SunHarvest wrote: Sorry. I have to re-post this as my local, small-town email provider's server crashed the day I sent this out. I couldn't receive any responses. Hi Wrenches, I inherited an off-grid PV system that seems to be significantly under producing. I have: 12 KC120's (~19V 7A each) paired up 2 in series, for 6 strings terminated on new 15A breakers in a new Midnite combiner, Output of combiner passes through a 60A breaker into a RV SolarBoost 50 charge controller. An SW4024 ties in the CC, a Kohler 8.5 Gen set, and a Yuasa 24V battery bank. My problem is that I never see more than about 5A (displayed at charge controller) coming off the array, even in full sun, regardless of the state of charge of the batteries. I figure I should see, at least once in a while, closer to between 20-30A. Batteries are, admittedly, passed their life expectancy as the system was installed in '02 and I am sure this is part of the problem. I'm thinking that if the batteries are at about 1/2 capacity (don't own a hydrometer...yet), the controller senses the batteries are near full SOC even at lower voltage (~24V) and is therefore attempting to trickle charge even in the bulk stage. Though this is not how the CC is supposed to function in bulk, obviously, I'm assuming the old batteries are altering the standard operating conditions of the system. I've adjusted the Bulk set point on the CC but that doesn't seem to make a difference. I doubt this is part of the problem but the generator is problematic as well (it has it's own array of maladies). Any insight is greatly appreciated. Thanks! Eric Stikes Owner SunHarvest Solar +1 (530) 798 - 3738 www.harvesthesun.com ___ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd mas...@cometsystems.co www.cometsystems.co Cell: 264.235.5670 Int: +1305.767.2094 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Off-grid PV
Hi Wrenches, I inherited an off-grid PV system that seems to be significantly under producing. I have: 12 KC120's (~17V 7A each) paired up 2 in series, for 6 strings terminated on new 15A breakers in a new Midnite combiner, Output of combiner passes through a 60A breaker then into a SolarBoost 50 charge controller. An SW4024 ties in the CC, a Kohler 8.5 Gen set, and a Yuasa 24V battery bank. My problem is that I never see more than about 5A (displayed at charge controller) coming off the array, even in full sun, regardless of the state of charge of the batteries. I figure I should see, at least once in a while, closer to between 20-30A. Batteries are, admittedly, passed their life expectancy as the system was installed in '02 and I am sure this is part of the problem. I'm thinking that if the batteries are at about 1/2 capacity (don't own a hydrometer...yet), the controller senses the batteries are near full SOC even at lower voltage (~24V) and is therefore attempting to trickle charge even in the bulk stage. Though this is not how the CC is supposed to function in bulk, obviously, I'm assuming the old batteries are altering the standard operating conditions of the system. I've adjusted the Bulk set point on the CC but that doesn't seem to make a difference. I doubt this is part of the problem but the generator is problematic as well (it has it's own array of maladies). Any insight is greatly appreciated. Thanks! -- Eric Stikes Owner SunHarvest Solar +1 (530) 798 - 3738 www.harvesthesun.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Off-grid PV
Hi Eric, Try putting the SolarBoost 50 into EQ. This will bypass the current limitations and you will see full amps. If no change, then try with 1 string at a time. If still the same then bypass the controller and test with your clamp on. This will tell you if its the array or the SB50 Good luck, jay peltz power On May 27, 2012, at 2:50 PM, Eric Stikes wrote: Hi Wrenches, I inherited an off-grid PV system that seems to be significantly under producing. I have: 12 KC120's (~17V 7A each) paired up 2 in series, for 6 strings terminated on new 15A breakers in a new Midnite combiner, Output of combiner passes through a 60A breaker then into a SolarBoost 50 charge controller. An SW4024 ties in the CC, a Kohler 8.5 Gen set, and a Yuasa 24V battery bank. My problem is that I never see more than about 5A (displayed at charge controller) coming off the array, even in full sun, regardless of the state of charge of the batteries. I figure I should see, at least once in a while, closer to between 20-30A. Batteries are, admittedly, passed their life expectancy as the system was installed in '02 and I am sure this is part of the problem. I'm thinking that if the batteries are at about 1/2 capacity (don't own a hydrometer...yet), the controller senses the batteries are near full SOC even at lower voltage (~24V) and is therefore attempting to trickle charge even in the bulk stage. Though this is not how the CC is supposed to function in bulk, obviously, I'm assuming the old batteries are altering the standard operating conditions of the system. I've adjusted the Bulk set point on the CC but that doesn't seem to make a difference. I doubt this is part of the problem but the generator is problematic as well (it has it's own array of maladies). Any insight is greatly appreciated. Thanks! -- Eric Stikes Owner SunHarvest Solar +1 (530) 798 - 3738 www.harvesthesun.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Off-grid PV
I would check each string. I have seen many failed 120 watt Kyocera modules. They had a delamination problem. David Katz Sent from my HTC smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint! - Reply message - From: Eric Stikes e...@harvesthesun.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Off-grid PV Date: Sun, May 27, 2012 2:51 pm Hi Wrenches, I inherited an off-grid PV system that seems to be significantly under producing. I have: 12 KC120's (~17V 7A each) paired up 2 in series, for 6 strings terminated on new 15A breakers in a new Midnite combiner, Output of combiner passes through a 60A breaker then into a SolarBoost 50 charge controller. An SW4024 ties in the CC, a Kohler 8.5 Gen set, and a Yuasa 24V battery bank. My problem is that I never see more than about 5A (displayed at charge controller) coming off the array, even in full sun, regardless of the state of charge of the batteries. I figure I should see, at least once in a while, closer to between 20-30A. Batteries are, admittedly, passed their life expectancy as the system was installed in '02 and I am sure this is part of the problem. I'm thinking that if the batteries are at about 1/2 capacity (don't own a hydrometer...yet), the controller senses the batteries are near full SOC even at lower voltage (~24V) and is therefore attempting to trickle charge even in the bulk stage. Though this is not how the CC is supposed to function in bulk, obviously, I'm assuming the old batteries are altering the standard operating conditions of the system. I've adjusted the Bulk set point on the CC but that doesn't seem to make a difference. I doubt this is part of the problem but the generator is problematic as well (it has it's own array of maladies). Any insight is greatly appreciated. Thanks! -- Eric Stikes Owner SunHarvest Solar +1 (530) 798 - 3738 www.harvesthesun.comhttp://www.harvesthesun.com/ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Off-grid PV
Hi Eric, Check the dates on the KC-120 module label. If any were manufactured between January 1999 and December 2002, they have or will fail. We have been replacing these modules for over 8 years now. There was a defective solder joint during manufacture. Kyocera will still replace them under warranty even though they have no legal requirement to do so. They will ship you remanufactured 120's and pay for return shipping. Contact Kyocera about the procedure. If the batteries are sulfated, they will not produce the load necessary to drive the current high. Capacity has nothing to do with it; internal resistance does. You can test the array by pulling the voltage down (turn on some big loads) at solar noon. This will force the controller into bulk and reveal the maximum current the array can produce. I think you have two problems here. With bad modules, you may not see much. It is typical for a controller to transition to float very early in the charge cycle if the battery is sulfated. Look for a fast rise in voltage in the morning. This is an indicator of sulfated battery. A healthy battery will slowly climb in voltage. Let me k now if you need more understanding about batteries, charging and why MOST of them never see old age. It's my speciality. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On May 27, 2012, at 2:50 PM, Eric Stikes wrote: Hi Wrenches, I inherited an off-grid PV system that seems to be significantly under producing. I have: 12 KC120's (~17V 7A each) paired up 2 in series, for 6 strings terminated on new 15A breakers in a new Midnite combiner, Output of combiner passes through a 60A breaker then into a SolarBoost 50 charge controller. An SW4024 ties in the CC, a Kohler 8.5 Gen set, and a Yuasa 24V battery bank. My problem is that I never see more than about 5A (displayed at charge controller) coming off the array, even in full sun, regardless of the state of charge of the batteries. I figure I should see, at least once in a while, closer to between 20-30A. Batteries are, admittedly, passed their life expectancy as the system was installed in '02 and I am sure this is part of the problem. I'm thinking that if the batteries are at about 1/2 capacity (don't own a hydrometer...yet), the controller senses the batteries are near full SOC even at lower voltage (~24V) and is therefore attempting to trickle charge even in the bulk stage. Though this is not how the CC is supposed to function in bulk, obviously, I'm assuming the old batteries are altering the standard operating conditions of the system. I've adjusted the Bulk set point on the CC but that doesn't seem to make a difference. I doubt this is part of the problem but the generator is problematic as well (it has it's own array of maladies). Any insight is greatly appreciated. Thanks! -- Eric Stikes Owner SunHarvest Solar +1 (530) 798 - 3738 www.harvesthesun.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Off-grid PV
I second what David is saying. I have seen many failed KC120's as well and they seem to fail most often at the top of the module where some insulating tape has been used to isolate the cell interconnecting bus as they pass over one another on their way to the j-box. There will be some slight evidence of browning inside the lamination looking at the front top of the module (usually but not always). Curious to see what you find. Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® NYSERDA eligible Small Wind installer Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine Inc. 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Sun, May 27, 2012 7:17 pm, David Katz wrote: I would check each string. I have seen many failed 120 watt Kyocera modules. They had a delamination problem. David Katz Sent from my HTC smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint! - Reply message - From: Eric Stikes e...@harvesthesun.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Troubleshooting Off-grid PV Date: Sun, May 27, 2012 2:51 pm Hi Wrenches, I inherited an off-grid PV system that seems to be significantly under producing. I have: 12 KC120's (~17V 7A each) paired up 2 in series, for 6 strings terminated on new 15A breakers in a new Midnite combiner, Output of combiner passes through a 60A breaker then into a SolarBoost 50 charge controller. An SW4024 ties in the CC, a Kohler 8.5 Gen set, and a Yuasa 24V battery bank. My problem is that I never see more than about 5A (displayed at charge controller) coming off the array, even in full sun, regardless of the state of charge of the batteries. I figure I should see, at least once in a while, closer to between 20-30A. Batteries are, admittedly, passed their life expectancy as the system was installed in '02 and I am sure this is part of the problem. I'm thinking that if the batteries are at about 1/2 capacity (don't own a hydrometer...yet), the controller senses the batteries are near full SOC even at lower voltage (~24V) and is therefore attempting to trickle charge even in the bulk stage. Though this is not how the CC is supposed to function in bulk, obviously, I'm assuming the old batteries are altering the standard operating conditions of the system. I've adjusted the Bulk set point on the CC but that doesn't seem to make a difference. I doubt this is part of the problem but the generator is problematic as well (it has it's own array of maladies). Any insight is greatly appreciated. Thanks! -- Eric Stikes Owner SunHarvest Solar +1 (530) 798 - 3738 www.harvesthesun.comhttp://www.harvesthesun.com/ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
