Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond

[Bill Brooks]

Michael,

So how many times do they have to replace the modules to get 10% more
energy;-)

Bill.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael
Welch
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 9:54 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond



Michael Welch wrote at 09:32 AM 11/4/2008:
 
>3. The amorphous modules performed 4% less than the crystalline -- until
Uni-Solar replaced the modules a couple of years back, and now they
outperform the crystalline modules by about 4%.

Dangit. That last figure is 2%, for outperforming the crystalline after the
Uni-Solar replacements. 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond

[Michael Welch]

Michael Welch wrote at 09:32 AM 11/4/2008:
 
>3. The amorphous modules performed 4% less than the crystalline -- until 
>Uni-Solar replaced the modules a couple of years back, and now they outperform 
>the crystalline modules by about 4%.

Dangit. That last figure is 2%, for outperforming the crystalline after the 
Uni-Solar replacements. 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond

[Michael Welch]

Hi gang. I have a little more info on the comparison system that was being 
discussed last week, just for the record. 

I heard from the system installer (Roger) yesterday who filled me in. I really 
do not know any more than the following:
1. Systems: eight 130 W Siemens and sixteen 64 W Uni-Solar modules, both on 
identical SunnyBoy inverters.SSW orientation, tilt = approx. latitude.

2. Site: Arcata, CA. 4.4 avg. daily peak sun hours. Rainy area, regular morning 
and late afternoon fog on clear days. Moderate temperatures. 

3. The amorphous modules performed 4% less than the crystalline -- until 
Uni-Solar replaced the modules a couple of years back, and now they outperform 
the crystalline modules by about 4%.

4. The installer and his distributor suspected that Uni-Solar high-graded the 
replacement modules they sent when they found out there was a public 
side-by-side comparison.
 
See the arrays here: http://www.geolinkwine.com/businessimages/ArcCo-OP1.JPG

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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond

[Joel Davidson]

Properly made Unisolar amorphous silicon solar modules power output should be 
good for the 20-year warranty period. NREL tests on the Unisolar 3-junction 
modules started 1997 and measure less than 1%/year degradation and holding 
steady at the same rate as properly made crystalline silicon solar modules.
 
EVA is hydroscopic. Any moisture that enters any EVA encapsulated solar module 
will result in poor performance and eventual failure. CIGS chemistry, EVA are 
H2O are particularly problematic.
 
20 or 25 year warranties are a whole other story. Arco had a 5 year warranty. 
When the company was 10 years old, Arco went to a 10 year warranty. Kyocera 
trumped Arco with a 12 year warranty. When Siemens celebrated its 
(Arco/Siemens) 25 year anniversary, they announced a 25 year warranty and the 
rest of the marketing pack followed their lead. Unisolar accelerated aging 
tests indicated a 20 year warranty was a safe bet and other amorphous PV 
producers tried to follow suit. A warranty is only as good as the company 
behind it and even good companies go out of business. A good warranty must also 
be backed up with good customer service. Put yer money on the table and take 
yer chances.



- Original Message 
From: Doug Wells <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Monday, November 3, 2008 5:53:29 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond

How about the longevity?
This is the one area that has not been tested.
Crystalline cells have proven their longevity for the most part.  
Their weakness seems to be sealants and gaskets more than cell  
longevity.
How will the amorphous panels be producing in 20 years?
Is this why Sanyo has kept its warranty at 20 years for its cell  
design?(and I like their panels)
Thoughts?

Doug Wells
The Solar Specialists
Worcester, VT 05682
(p) 802-223-7014
(c) 802-498-5856
www.thesolarspecialists.com




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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond

[Geoff Greenfield]

Yes Doug... I am waiting for some more in-field time for the enphase, and am 
trying to pencil out install labor differences of micro VS central... something 
we are all curious about.

In this application however, the crstaline alternative would allow me to only 
locate modules in non-shaded roof areas... The less energy dense laminates are 
everywhere... right up against hoods, skylights, mechanicals etc.  It is my 
assertion that all the sub-optimal locations, the zero degree azimuth, AND the 
mis-matched string voltages of the proposed "plan A" all will greatly reduce 
performance, eliminating the 5% advantage of the unisolar (In this 
application).  With the outrageous cost differential ($6.20) of PVL with 
velcro, I can even provide an array 5% larger at a lower cost.

We shall see.  The architect and owners have been sold a bill of goods, and 
with limited understanding have designed a system that offsets any PVL 
advantage.  Oh well.


For a brighter energy future, 

Geoff Greenfield 
President 
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd. 
340 West State Street, Unit 25 
Athens, OH 45701 

740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548 
www.Third-Sun.com 

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed 






- Doug Pratt wrote: 
> Geoff, 
> 
> If you're going crystalline now, and have shading problems, this might be a 
> good system to consider the Enphase micro-inverter. No strings! Each module 
> delivers whatever it can and isn't affected by its neighbors. On the down 
> side, Enphase so far has only released models for 72-cell modules (24v 
> nominal) up to 180 watts, and just last week a new model for hi-volt Sanyo 
> HIP/HIT series up to 220 watts. You'll pay a bit more for inverters, but PV 
> performance is the best possible. 
> 
> Cheers, 
> Doug Pratt 
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoff 
> Greenfield 
> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 8:50 AM 
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Cc: RE Marketing for home scale RE industry 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond 
> 
> thanks everyone! Once more this list is a fantastic resource. 
> 
> As a follow up, the original post was related to mismatched strings... I 
> will be suggesting a design change to achieve consistant string voltages. 
> 
> More than any marketing claims, I trust this list's experience. I will be 
> proposing a crystaline alternative and will size it 5% larger. (I am 
> motivated to do this as this project has "special" laminates with foil and 
> Velcro, at 6.22/w! So much forcist advantage! As full as this roof is, 
> plenty of that expensive pv is in shaded spots... Another reason my 
> crystaline alt would pwrfirm better. 
> 
> Regarding the pv watts modeling and the 5% advantage, did that include the 
> difference in tilt? I'm thinking that I'll have some additional gains with 
> 10 degrees vs flat. 
> 
> For a brighter energy future, 
> 
> Geoff Greenfield 
> President 
> Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd. 
> 340 West State Street, Unit 25 
> Athens, OH 45701 
> 
> 740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548 
> www.Third-Sun.com 
> 
> Clean Energy - Expertly Installed 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Joel Davidson wrote: 
> > Hi Marco, 
> > 
> > I'm moving this over to RE-Markets before I get my Send button punched. 
> > 
> > I agree and am a crystalline guy for now. But if just 50% of the announced 
> thin film factories come on line and only half of the survivors match First 
> Solar's cost/price/profit, then other thin film wannabees a going to jump 
> in. 
> > 
> > First Solar and SolarCity's recent deal is interesting. See 
> http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-solar30-2008oct30,0,3945811.story I 
> have not had much success finding enough space on home roofs for low-power 
> density PV. 
> > 
> > Paul Basore and James Gee gave the definitive crystalline PV paper in 1994 
> (in your neighborhood!) and it still holds true. See 
> http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/10106636-scc2Rs/webviewable/1010663 
> 6.pdf I think Paul is at CSG Solar (crystalline) and James is at Advent 
> Solar (crystalline). 
> > 
> > Aloha, 
> > Joel 
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: Marco Mangelsdorf 
> > To: 'RE-wrenches' 
> > Cc: 'Paula Mints' 
> > Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 11:21 AM 
> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond 
> > 
> > 
> > Joel, 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I've been either a participant or observer of the PV field/industry as 
> long as most greybeards in the field. And ever since my entry in the RE biz 
> i

[RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond

[Doug Wells]

How about the longevity?
This is the one area that has not been tested.
Crystalline cells have proven their longevity for the most part.   
Their weakness seems to be sealants and gaskets more than cell  
longevity.

How will the amorphous panels be producing in 20 years?
Is this why Sanyo has kept its warranty at 20 years for its cell  
design?(and I like their panels)

Thoughts?

Doug Wells
The Solar Specialists
Worcester, VT 05682
(p) 802-223-7014
(c) 802-498-5856
www.thesolarspecialists.com




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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond

[Doug Pratt]

Geoff,

If you're going crystalline now, and have shading problems, this might be a
good system to consider the Enphase micro-inverter. No strings! Each module
delivers whatever it can and isn't affected by its neighbors. On the down
side, Enphase so far has only released models for 72-cell modules (24v
nominal) up to 180 watts, and just last week a new model for hi-volt Sanyo
HIP/HIT series up to 220 watts. You'll pay a bit more for inverters, but PV
performance is the best possible.

Cheers,
Doug Pratt 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoff
Greenfield
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 8:50 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Cc: RE Marketing for home scale RE industry
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond

thanks everyone!  Once more this list is a fantastic resource.

As a follow up, the original post was related to mismatched strings... I
will be suggesting a design change to achieve consistant string voltages. 

More than any marketing claims, I trust this list's experience. I will be
proposing a crystaline alternative and will size it 5% larger. (I am
motivated to do this as this project has "special" laminates with foil and
Velcro, at 6.22/w! So much forcist advantage!  As full as this roof is,
plenty of that expensive pv is in shaded spots... Another reason my
crystaline alt would pwrfirm better. 

Regarding the pv watts modeling and the 5% advantage, did that include the
difference in tilt? I'm thinking that I'll have some additional gains with
10 degrees vs flat.   

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
President
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed






- Joel Davidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Marco,
> 
> I'm moving this over to RE-Markets before I get my Send button punched.
> 
> I agree and am a crystalline guy for now. But if just 50% of the announced
thin film factories come on line and only half of the survivors match First
Solar's cost/price/profit, then other thin film wannabees a going to jump
in.
> 
> First Solar and SolarCity's recent deal is interesting. See
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-solar30-2008oct30,0,3945811.story I
have not had much success finding enough space on home roofs for low-power
density PV.
> 
> Paul Basore and James Gee gave the definitive crystalline PV paper in 1994
(in your neighborhood!) and it still holds true. See
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/10106636-scc2Rs/webviewable/1010663
6.pdf I think Paul is at CSG Solar (crystalline) and James is at Advent
Solar (crystalline).
> 
> Aloha,
> Joel
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Marco Mangelsdorf 
>   To: 'RE-wrenches' 
>   Cc: 'Paula Mints' 
>   Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 11:21 AM
>   Subject: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond
> 
> 
>   Joel,
> 
>
> 
>   I've been either a participant or observer of the PV field/industry as
long as most greybeards in the field.  And ever since my entry in the RE biz
in the 1970s, the promise from the touters of thin films has been: 1) their
product was going to revolutionize the industry, 2) their product was going
to dramatically lower the $/watt cost of PV and 3) their product was going
to replace that old fashioned and 1950s-vintage crystalline silicon as the
dominant semiconductor.in a few years, always in a few years.  And you know
what?  I'm still waiting for those oft-repeated claims babbled ad nauseum to
become reality.  Yes, First Solar is making great strides in establishing
CdTe as a viable segment of the market.  And yes, UniSolar has carved a
nice, and very small niche, in the market as well.  But if you look at the
still near dominance of crystalline (as in 85-90 percent) of the worldwide
PV market, I still conclude that when it comes to price, efficiency,
dollars/watt insta
 lled, reliability, longevity and unmatched operational time in the real
world, this talk of thin films being poised to take over is the same bunch
of hooey that it was in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and now.
> 
>
> 
>   My two aloha cents worth..
> 
>   marco,
> 
>   ProVision, Hawai'i
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>   Hi Jay,
> 
>
> 
>   My experience was the exact opposite with Unisolar triple-junction
structural standing seam systems in 1996 and megawatts of Unisolar from 2003
to 2007. My Unisolar tests and installations exceeded PVWATTS kWh estimates
by approx 5% (PVWATTS uses crystalline PV temperature coefficient). PVWATTS
is a reliable estimator for crystalline PV systems when 0.65 dc-to-ac derate
factor for battery based systems and 0.75 to 0.82 for batteryless systems
was used. See http://www.u

Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond

[Geoff Greenfield]

thanks everyone!  Once more this list is a fantastic resource.

As a follow up, the original post was related to mismatched strings... I will 
be suggesting a design change to achieve consistant string voltages. 

More than any marketing claims, I trust this list's experience. I will be 
proposing a crystaline alternative and will size it 5% larger. (I am motivated 
to do this as this project has "special" laminates with foil and Velcro, at 
6.22/w! So much forcist advantage!  As full as this roof is, plenty of that 
expensive pv is in shaded spots... Another reason my crystaline alt would 
pwrfirm better. 

Regarding the pv watts modeling and the 5% advantage, did that include the 
difference in tilt? I'm thinking that I'll have some additional gains with 10 
degrees vs flat.   

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
President
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed






- Joel Davidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Marco,
> 
> I'm moving this over to RE-Markets before I get my Send button punched.
> 
> I agree and am a crystalline guy for now. But if just 50% of the announced 
> thin film factories come on line and only half of the survivors match First 
> Solar's cost/price/profit, then other thin film wannabees a going to jump in.
> 
> First Solar and SolarCity's recent deal is interesting. See 
> http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-solar30-2008oct30,0,3945811.story I 
> have not had much success finding enough space on home roofs for low-power 
> density PV.
> 
> Paul Basore and James Gee gave the definitive crystalline PV paper in 1994 
> (in your neighborhood!) and it still holds true. See 
> http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/10106636-scc2Rs/webviewable/10106636.pdf
>  I think Paul is at CSG Solar (crystalline) and James is at Advent Solar 
> (crystalline).
> 
> Aloha,
> Joel
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Marco Mangelsdorf 
>   To: 'RE-wrenches' 
>   Cc: 'Paula Mints' 
>   Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 11:21 AM
>   Subject: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond
> 
> 
>   Joel,
> 
>
> 
>   I've been either a participant or observer of the PV field/industry as long 
> as most greybeards in the field.  And ever since my entry in the RE biz in 
> the 1970s, the promise from the touters of thin films has been: 1) their 
> product was going to revolutionize the industry, 2) their product was going 
> to dramatically lower the $/watt cost of PV and 3) their product was going to 
> replace that old fashioned and 1950s-vintage crystalline silicon as the 
> dominant semiconductor.in a few years, always in a few years.  And you know 
> what?  I'm still waiting for those oft-repeated claims babbled ad nauseum to 
> become reality.  Yes, First Solar is making great strides in establishing 
> CdTe as a viable segment of the market.  And yes, UniSolar has carved a nice, 
> and very small niche, in the market as well.  But if you look at the still 
> near dominance of crystalline (as in 85-90 percent) of the worldwide PV 
> market, I still conclude that when it comes to price, efficiency, 
> dollars/watt installed, reliability, longevity and unmatched operational time 
> in the real world, this talk of thin films being poised to take over is the 
> same bunch of hooey that it was in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and now.
> 
>
> 
>   My two aloha cents worth..
> 
>   marco,
> 
>   ProVision, Hawai'i
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>   Hi Jay,
> 
>
> 
>   My experience was the exact opposite with Unisolar triple-junction 
> structural standing seam systems in 1996 and megawatts of Unisolar from 2003 
> to 2007. My Unisolar tests and installations exceeded PVWATTS kWh estimates 
> by approx 5% (PVWATTS uses crystalline PV temperature coefficient). PVWATTS 
> is a reliable estimator for crystalline PV systems when 0.65 dc-to-ac derate 
> factor for battery based systems and 0.75 to 0.82 for batteryless systems was 
> used. See http://www.uni-solar.com/uploadedFiles/0.4.2_white_paper_3.pdf
> 
>
> 
>   a-Si degradation is no mystery. See 
> http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy00osti/28333.pdf NREL on-going tests since 1997 
> validates Unisolar's 20-year 80% warranty claim. It is interesting that the 
> time of year Unisolar is deployed affects its light induced degradation. See 
> "Recovery of Light Induced Degradation in Amorphous Silicon Solar Cells and 
> Modules."
> 
>
> 
>   I think that Unisolar modules are suitable:
> 
>   when high power density is not required
> 
>   if

[RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond

[Joel Davidson]

Hi Marco,

I'm moving this over to RE-Markets before I get my Send button punched.

I agree and am a crystalline guy for now. But if just 50% of the announced thin 
film factories come on line and only half of the survivors match First Solar's 
cost/price/profit, then other thin film wannabees a going to jump in.

First Solar and SolarCity's recent deal is interesting. See 
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-solar30-2008oct30,0,3945811.story I have 
not had much success finding enough space on home roofs for low-power density 
PV.

Paul Basore and James Gee gave the definitive crystalline PV paper in 1994 (in 
your neighborhood!) and it still holds true. See 
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/10106636-scc2Rs/webviewable/10106636.pdf
 I think Paul is at CSG Solar (crystalline) and James is at Advent Solar 
(crystalline).

Aloha,
Joel
  - Original Message - 
  From: Marco Mangelsdorf 
  To: 'RE-wrenches' 
  Cc: 'Paula Mints' 
  Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 11:21 AM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond


  Joel,

   

  I've been either a participant or observer of the PV field/industry as long 
as most greybeards in the field.  And ever since my entry in the RE biz in the 
1970s, the promise from the touters of thin films has been: 1) their product 
was going to revolutionize the industry, 2) their product was going to 
dramatically lower the $/watt cost of PV and 3) their product was going to 
replace that old fashioned and 1950s-vintage crystalline silicon as the 
dominant semiconductor.in a few years, always in a few years.  And you know 
what?  I'm still waiting for those oft-repeated claims babbled ad nauseum to 
become reality.  Yes, First Solar is making great strides in establishing CdTe 
as a viable segment of the market.  And yes, UniSolar has carved a nice, and 
very small niche, in the market as well.  But if you look at the still near 
dominance of crystalline (as in 85-90 percent) of the worldwide PV market, I 
still conclude that when it comes to price, efficiency, dollars/watt installed, 
reliability, longevity and unmatched operational time in the real world, this 
talk of thin films being poised to take over is the same bunch of hooey that it 
was in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and now.

   

  My two aloha cents worth..

  marco,

  ProVision, Hawai'i

   

   

  Hi Jay,

   

  My experience was the exact opposite with Unisolar triple-junction structural 
standing seam systems in 1996 and megawatts of Unisolar from 2003 to 2007. My 
Unisolar tests and installations exceeded PVWATTS kWh estimates by approx 5% 
(PVWATTS uses crystalline PV temperature coefficient). PVWATTS is a reliable 
estimator for crystalline PV systems when 0.65 dc-to-ac derate factor for 
battery based systems and 0.75 to 0.82 for batteryless systems was used. See 
http://www.uni-solar.com/uploadedFiles/0.4.2_white_paper_3.pdf

   

  a-Si degradation is no mystery. See 
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy00osti/28333.pdf NREL on-going tests since 1997 
validates Unisolar's 20-year 80% warranty claim. It is interesting that the 
time of year Unisolar is deployed affects its light induced degradation. See 
"Recovery of Light Induced Degradation in Amorphous Silicon Solar Cells and 
Modules."

   

  I think that Unisolar modules are suitable:

  when high power density is not required

  if flexibility and/or conformability are wanted

  if partial shading is an issue

  if high cell temperature is an issue

  if building integration is wanted

  if no glass is wanted

  if its unique appearance is wanted.

   

  The "aluminum-frame-glass-module" monopoly has been broken. Unisolar's 
persistence, First Solar's CdTe success, and the re-appearance of CIGS 
(remember Arco/Siemens 1998 ST modules?) along with "see through" and other 
flexible PV modules is changing PV. The lowest price per watt (initial cost) is 
gradually giving way to lowest price per kilowatt-hour (lifecycle cost). It's 
still a neck-n-neck which PV technology will win, but there is no doubt that PV 
is winning almost everyone's heart and mind.

   

  Best regards,

  Joel Davidson

  "Not all change is for the better, but nothing gets better without change." 
So vote for change!

   

   

- Original Message ----- 

    From: jay peltz 

    To: RE-wrenches 

Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 10:23 PM

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

 

Hi Joel, 

 

1.   unisolar 64's and sharp single cystal

 

2. SMA inverters

 

3. Arcata California

 

4. exact, I mean side by side with no shading, same azimuth ( south) same 
tilt ( can't remember)

 

5.  As to the unisolar producing more, I must stress that I have never seen 
the Unisolar produce more than SC, never.

 

jay

 

peltz power

On Oct 3

Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond

[jay peltz]

HI Doug,

Thanks,  If memory serves, they were replaced, inverters were changed  
and the results were the same.


Most of my other experience is with battery based applications and I  
just haven't seen any advantage.  I have seen no real lack of  
performance, but not the advantages that others are now stating.  I  
will certainly put this new information to use.


That said, I think they have many great attributes.  For me the  
biggest is the peal and stick on the metal roof,   best mounting  
system out there.

Would I use them on my house, sure.

But given that most of my jobs being off-grid battery based, many on  
pole mounts, its just too expensive to use thin film, unless the price  
does come down a lot.


peace,

jay

peltz power


On Nov 1, 2008, at 1:15 PM, Doug Pratt wrote:


Hi Guys,

I might be able to shed some light on the Uni-Solar performance  
disparity bouncing back and forth here.  Uni-Solar put out a low- 
performing (some might call them defective?) batch of US-64’s back  
around 2004 I believe.  As an employee of Uni-Solar’s primary North  
American distributor I’ve seen a couple of these cases crop up.   
Jay, if this system was installed in the 2003-2005 time frame, and  
the cells have the slightly reddish outer edges, then they’re  
suspicious.  Collect serial numbers and contact Uni-Solar.


The reddish edges disappeared when Uni-Solar’s 2nd generation  
deposition machine came online in late 2004.  Wattage ratings on  
most modules went up a little bit at this time also.  Most folks  
experiences with Uni-Solar have been like Joel’s. They perform just  
a little bit better than crystalline…5%-7% is typical, although it  
depends on temperature.  Hot climates favor amorphous silicon, cold  
climates favor crystalline silicon.


Cheers,
Doug Pratt
DC Power Systems

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
] On Behalf Of Joel Davidson

Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 10:00 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond

Hi Jay,

My experience was the exact opposite with Unisolar triple-junction  
structural standing seam systems in 1996 and megawatts of Unisolar  
from 2003 to 2007. My Unisolar tests and installations exceeded  
PVWATTS kWh estimates by approx 5% (PVWATTS uses crystalline PV  
temperature coefficient). PVWATTS is a reliable estimator for  
crystalline PV systems when 0.65 dc-to-ac derate factor for battery  
based systems and 0.75 to 0.82 for batteryless systems was used. See http://www.uni-solar.com/uploadedFiles/0.4.2_white_paper_3.pdf


a-Si degradation is no mystery. See http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy00osti/28333.pdf 
 NREL on-going tests since 1997 validates Unisolar's 20-year 80%  
warranty claim. It is interesting that the time of year Unisolar is  
deployed affects its light induced degradation. See "Recovery of  
Light Induced Degradation in Amorphous Silicon Solar Cells and  
Modules."


I think that Unisolar modules are suitable:
when high power density is not required
if flexibility and/or conformability are wanted
if partial shading is an issue
if high cell temperature is an issue
if building integration is wanted
if no glass is wanted
if its unique appearance is wanted.

The "aluminum-frame-glass-module" monopoly has been broken.  
Unisolar's persistence, First Solar's CdTe success, and the re- 
appearance of CIGS (remember Arco/Siemens 1998 ST modules?) along  
with "see through" and other flexible PV modules is changing PV. The  
lowest price per watt (initial cost) is gradually giving way to  
lowest price per kilowatt-hour (lifecycle cost). It's still a neck-n- 
neck which PV technology will win, but there is no doubt that PV is  
winning almost everyone's heart and mind.


Best regards,
Joel Davidson
"Not all change is for the better, but nothing gets better without  
change." So vote for change!



- Original Message -
From: jay peltz
To: RE-wrenches
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

Hi Joel,

1.   unisolar 64's and sharp single cystal

2. SMA inverters

3. Arcata California

4. exact, I mean side by side with no shading, same azimuth ( south)  
same tilt ( can't remember)


5.  As to the unisolar producing more, I must stress that I have  
never seen the Unisolar produce more than SC, never.


jay

peltz power
On Oct 31, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Joel Davidson wrote:


Hello Jay,



Sounds like something is wrong other than Unisolar vs. crystalline.  
All things being equal, the Unisolar should produce more kWh per kW  
than crystalline. Questions:


1. What modules and how many of each?

2. What inverter or inverters?

3. Geographic location?

4. Array azimuth and tilt?



Best regards,

Joel Davidson



- Original Message 
From: jay peltz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:27:19 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenche

Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond

[Doug Pratt]

Hi Guys,

 

I might be able to shed some light on the Uni-Solar performance disparity
bouncing back and forth here.  Uni-Solar put out a low-performing (some
might call them defective?) batch of US-64's back around 2004 I believe.  As
an employee of Uni-Solar's primary North American distributor I've seen a
couple of these cases crop up.  Jay, if this system was installed in the
2003-2005 time frame, and the cells have the slightly reddish outer edges,
then they're suspicious.  Collect serial numbers and contact Uni-Solar. 

 

The reddish edges disappeared when Uni-Solar's 2nd generation deposition
machine came online in late 2004.  Wattage ratings on most modules went up a
little bit at this time also.  Most folks experiences with Uni-Solar have
been like Joel's. They perform just a little bit better than
crystalline.5%-7% is typical, although it depends on temperature.  Hot
climates favor amorphous silicon, cold climates favor crystalline silicon. 

 

Cheers,

Doug Pratt

DC Power Systems

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joel
Davidson
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 10:00 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond

 

Hi Jay,

 

My experience was the exact opposite with Unisolar triple-junction
structural standing seam systems in 1996 and megawatts of Unisolar from 2003
to 2007. My Unisolar tests and installations exceeded PVWATTS kWh estimates
by approx 5% (PVWATTS uses crystalline PV temperature coefficient). PVWATTS
is a reliable estimator for crystalline PV systems when 0.65 dc-to-ac derate
factor for battery based systems and 0.75 to 0.82 for batteryless systems
was used. See http://www.uni-solar.com/uploadedFiles/0.4.2_white_paper_3.pdf

 

a-Si degradation is no mystery. See
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy00osti/28333.pdf NREL on-going tests since 1997
validates Unisolar's 20-year 80% warranty claim. It is interesting that the
time of year Unisolar is deployed affects its light induced degradation. See
"Recovery of Light Induced Degradation in Amorphous Silicon Solar Cells and
Modules."

 

I think that Unisolar modules are suitable:

when high power density is not required

if flexibility and/or conformability are wanted

if partial shading is an issue

if high cell temperature is an issue

if building integration is wanted

if no glass is wanted

if its unique appearance is wanted.

 

The "aluminum-frame-glass-module" monopoly has been broken. Unisolar's
persistence, First Solar's CdTe success, and the re-appearance of CIGS
(remember Arco/Siemens 1998 ST modules?) along with "see through" and other
flexible PV modules is changing PV. The lowest price per watt (initial cost)
is gradually giving way to lowest price per kilowatt-hour (lifecycle cost).
It's still a neck-n-neck which PV technology will win, but there is no doubt
that PV is winning almost everyone's heart and mind.

 

Best regards,

Joel Davidson

"Not all change is for the better, but nothing gets better without change."
So vote for change!

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: jay peltz <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  

To: RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>  

Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 10:23 PM

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

 

Hi Joel, 

 

1.   unisolar 64's and sharp single cystal

 

2. SMA inverters

 

3. Arcata California

 

4. exact, I mean side by side with no shading, same azimuth ( south) same
tilt ( can't remember)

 

5.  As to the unisolar producing more, I must stress that I have never seen
the Unisolar produce more than SC, never.

 

jay

 

peltz power

On Oct 31, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Joel Davidson wrote:





Hello Jay,


 

Sounds like something is wrong other than Unisolar vs. crystalline. All
things being equal, the Unisolar should produce more kWh per kW than
crystalline. Questions:

1. What modules and how many of each?

2. What inverter or inverters?

3. Geographic location?

4. Array azimuth and tilt?


 

Best regards,

Joel Davidson

 

 

- Original Message 
From: jay peltz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:27:19 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

Hi Geoff, 

 

In regards to the performance between Unisolar and crystalline, there is a
side by side ( same watts, batteryless intertie with metering) installation
up here on the North coast of California, and the the Unisolar is the
constant under-performer.  This includes cloudy, sunny, warm, cold weather.

 

I have seen nothing in the field to support the Unisolar claims about better
performance in low light etc.  That said, they do work better in very hot
conditions, if thats what you have.

 

jay

 

peltz power

 

 

On Oct 31, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Geoff Greenfield wrote:





As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all wh

[RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond

[Marco Mangelsdorf]

Joel,

 

I've been either a participant or observer of the PV field/industry as long
as most greybeards in the field.  And ever since my entry in the RE biz in
the 1970s, the promise from the touters of thin films has been: 1) their
product was going to revolutionize the industry, 2) their product was going
to dramatically lower the $/watt cost of PV and 3) their product was going
to replace that old fashioned and 1950s-vintage crystalline silicon as the
dominant semiconductor.in a few years, always in a few years.  And you know
what?  I'm still waiting for those oft-repeated claims babbled ad nauseum to
become reality.  Yes, First Solar is making great strides in establishing
CdTe as a viable segment of the market.  And yes, UniSolar has carved a
nice, and very small niche, in the market as well.  But if you look at the
still near dominance of crystalline (as in 85-90 percent) of the worldwide
PV market, I still conclude that when it comes to price, efficiency,
dollars/watt installed, reliability, longevity and unmatched operational
time in the real world, this talk of thin films being poised to take over is
the same bunch of hooey that it was in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and now.

 

My two aloha cents worth..

marco,

ProVision, Hawai'i

 

 

Hi Jay,

 

My experience was the exact opposite with Unisolar triple-junction
structural standing seam systems in 1996 and megawatts of Unisolar from 2003
to 2007. My Unisolar tests and installations exceeded PVWATTS kWh estimates
by approx 5% (PVWATTS uses crystalline PV temperature coefficient). PVWATTS
is a reliable estimator for crystalline PV systems when 0.65 dc-to-ac derate
factor for battery based systems and 0.75 to 0.82 for batteryless systems
was used. See http://www.uni-solar.com/uploadedFiles/0.4.2_white_paper_3.pdf

 

a-Si degradation is no mystery. See
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy00osti/28333.pdf NREL on-going tests since 1997
validates Unisolar's 20-year 80% warranty claim. It is interesting that the
time of year Unisolar is deployed affects its light induced degradation. See
"Recovery of Light Induced Degradation in Amorphous Silicon Solar Cells and
Modules."

 

I think that Unisolar modules are suitable:

when high power density is not required

if flexibility and/or conformability are wanted

if partial shading is an issue

if high cell temperature is an issue

if building integration is wanted

if no glass is wanted

if its unique appearance is wanted.

 

The "aluminum-frame-glass-module" monopoly has been broken. Unisolar's
persistence, First Solar's CdTe success, and the re-appearance of CIGS
(remember Arco/Siemens 1998 ST modules?) along with "see through" and other
flexible PV modules is changing PV. The lowest price per watt (initial cost)
is gradually giving way to lowest price per kilowatt-hour (lifecycle cost).
It's still a neck-n-neck which PV technology will win, but there is no doubt
that PV is winning almost everyone's heart and mind.

 

Best regards,

Joel Davidson

"Not all change is for the better, but nothing gets better without change."
So vote for change!

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: jay peltz <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  

To: RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>  

Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 10:23 PM

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

 

Hi Joel, 

 

1.   unisolar 64's and sharp single cystal

 

2. SMA inverters

 

3. Arcata California

 

4. exact, I mean side by side with no shading, same azimuth ( south) same
tilt ( can't remember)

 

5.  As to the unisolar producing more, I must stress that I have never seen
the Unisolar produce more than SC, never.

 

jay

 

peltz power

On Oct 31, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Joel Davidson wrote:





Hello Jay,


 

Sounds like something is wrong other than Unisolar vs. crystalline. All
things being equal, the Unisolar should produce more kWh per kW than
crystalline. Questions:

1. What modules and how many of each?

2. What inverter or inverters?

3. Geographic location?

4. Array azimuth and tilt?


 

Best regards,

Joel Davidson

 

 

- Original Message 
From: jay peltz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:27:19 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

Hi Geoff, 

 

In regards to the performance between Unisolar and crystalline, there is a
side by side ( same watts, batteryless intertie with metering) installation
up here on the North coast of California, and the the Unisolar is the
constant under-performer.  This includes cloudy, sunny, warm, cold weather.

 

I have seen nothing in the field to support the Unisolar claims about better
performance in low light etc.  That said, they do work better in very hot
conditions, if thats what you have.

 

jay

 

peltz power

 

 

On Oct 31, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Geoff Greenfield wrote:





As a follow up to my uni-solar po

Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar and beyond

[Joel Davidson]

Hi Jay,

My experience was the exact opposite with Unisolar triple-junction structural 
standing seam systems in 1996 and megawatts of Unisolar from 2003 to 2007. My 
Unisolar tests and installations exceeded PVWATTS kWh estimates by approx 5% 
(PVWATTS uses crystalline PV temperature coefficient). PVWATTS is a reliable 
estimator for crystalline PV systems when 0.65 dc-to-ac derate factor for 
battery based systems and 0.75 to 0.82 for batteryless systems was used. See 
http://www.uni-solar.com/uploadedFiles/0.4.2_white_paper_3.pdf

a-Si degradation is no mystery. See http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy00osti/28333.pdf 
NREL on-going tests since 1997 validates Unisolar's 20-year 80% warranty claim. 
It is interesting that the time of year Unisolar is deployed affects its light 
induced degradation. See "Recovery of Light Induced Degradation in Amorphous 
Silicon Solar Cells and Modules."

I think that Unisolar modules are suitable:
when high power density is not required
if flexibility and/or conformability are wanted
if partial shading is an issue
if high cell temperature is an issue
if building integration is wanted
if no glass is wanted
if its unique appearance is wanted.

The "aluminum-frame-glass-module" monopoly has been broken. Unisolar's 
persistence, First Solar's CdTe success, and the re-appearance of CIGS 
(remember Arco/Siemens 1998 ST modules?) along with "see through" and other 
flexible PV modules is changing PV. The lowest price per watt (initial cost) is 
gradually giving way to lowest price per kilowatt-hour (lifecycle cost). It's 
still a neck-n-neck which PV technology will win, but there is no doubt that PV 
is winning almost everyone's heart and mind.

Best regards,
Joel Davidson
"Not all change is for the better, but nothing gets better without change." So 
vote for change!


  - Original Message - 
  From: jay peltz 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 10:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar


  Hi Joel,


  1.   unisolar 64's and sharp single cystal


  2. SMA inverters


  3. Arcata California


  4. exact, I mean side by side with no shading, same azimuth ( south) same 
tilt ( can't remember)


  5.  As to the unisolar producing more, I must stress that I have never seen 
the Unisolar produce more than SC, never.


  jay


  peltz power
  On Oct 31, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Joel Davidson wrote:


Hello Jay,



Sounds like something is wrong other than Unisolar vs. crystalline. All 
things being equal, the Unisolar should produce more kWh per kW than 
crystalline. Questions:

1. What modules and how many of each?

2. What inverter or inverters?

3. Geographic location?

4. Array azimuth and tilt?



Best regards,

Joel Davidson





- Original Message 
From: jay peltz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:27:19 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

Hi Geoff,


In regards to the performance between Unisolar and crystalline, there is a 
side by side ( same watts, batteryless intertie with metering) installation up 
here on the North coast of California, and the the Unisolar is the constant 
under-performer.  This includes cloudy, sunny, warm, cold weather.


I have seen nothing in the field to support the Unisolar claims about 
better performance in low light etc.  That said, they do work better in very 
hot conditions, if thats what you have.


jay


peltz power




On Oct 31, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Geoff Greenfield wrote:


  As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided 
feedback),  I have a second request:


  Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar and 
conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own wrench thoughts?


  I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are 
considering unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N), with plenty 
of partial shading, after getting a pitch about all sorts of advantages of 
Uni-Solar.  I think that this product has it's role and I occasionally sell 
it... But I am frustrated when I truly believe I can deliver a better net 
energy production with a tilted crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded 
areas).  

  For a brighter energy future,

  Geoff Greenfield
  Founder and CEO
  Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
  340 West State Street, Unit 25
  Athens, OH 45701

  740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
  www.Third-Sun.com

  Clean Energy - Expertly Installed



  ___
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http:/

Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[jay peltz]

Hi Joel,

1.   unisolar 64's and sharp single cystal

2. SMA inverters

3. Arcata California

4. exact, I mean side by side with no shading, same azimuth ( south)  
same tilt ( can't remember)


5.  As to the unisolar producing more, I must stress that I have never  
seen the Unisolar produce more than SC, never.


jay

peltz power
On Oct 31, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Joel Davidson wrote:


Hello Jay,


Sounds like something is wrong other than Unisolar vs. crystalline.  
All things being equal, the Unisolar should produce more kWh per kW  
than crystalline. Questions:


1. What modules and how many of each?

2. What inverter or inverters?

3. Geographic location?

4. Array azimuth and tilt?


Best regards,

Joel Davidson



- Original Message 
From: jay peltz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:27:19 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

Hi Geoff,

In regards to the performance between Unisolar and crystalline,  
there is a side by side ( same watts, batteryless intertie with  
metering) installation up here on the North coast of California, and  
the the Unisolar is the constant under-performer.  This includes  
cloudy, sunny, warm, cold weather.


I have seen nothing in the field to support the Unisolar claims  
about better performance in low light etc.  That said, they do work  
better in very hot conditions, if thats what you have.


jay

peltz power


On Oct 31, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Geoff Greenfield wrote:

As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided  
feedback),  I have a second request:


Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar  
and conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own  
wrench thoughts?


I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are  
considering unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N),  
with plenty of partial shading, after getting a pitch about all  
sorts of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I think that this product has  
it's role and I occasionally sell it... But I am frustrated when I  
truly believe I can deliver a better net energy production with a  
tilted crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
Founder and CEO
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed


___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[jay peltz]

Hi Ian,

There was a fat spaniel site for it.

I can ask to see if this can be posted,

jay

peltz power


On Oct 31, 2008, at 12:55 PM, Ian Woofenden wrote:



Hi Jay,

Is there documentation available on this side-by-side comparison? URL?

Thanks,

Ian


Hi Geoff,

In regards to the performance between Unisolar and crystalline,  
there is a side by side ( same watts, batteryless intertie with  
metering) installation up here on the North coast of California,  
and the the Unisolar is the constant under-performer.  This  
includes cloudy, sunny, warm, cold weather.


I have seen nothing in the field to support the Unisolar claims  
about better performance in low light etc.  That said, they do work  
better in very hot conditions, if thats what you have.


jay

peltz power


On Oct 31, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Geoff Greenfield wrote:

As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who  
provided feedback),  I have a second request:


Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between  
Unisolar and conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?   
Your own wrench thoughts?


I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are  
considering unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees  
N), with plenty of partial shading, after getting a pitch about  
all sorts of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I think that this product  
has it's role and I occasionally sell it... But I am frustrated  
when I truly believe I can deliver a better net energy production  
with a tilted crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
Founder and CEO
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed
___
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--
Ian Woofenden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Senior Editor, Home  
Power magazine
Subscriptions: $24.95 per year PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA   
800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220

or download free sample issue at 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[Larry Crutcher]

Geoff,

When you mentioned "plenty of partial shading", that settled the issue  
for me. Every cell in Uni-Solar modules have a bypass diode allowing  
them to handle shading better than any other module I know of. For  
potentially shaded areas or high ambient temperatures, it is our  
module of choice. After 6 years of selling and installing Uni-Solar,  
we have only had one failure. Their performance here in our very hot  
climate is outstanding.


As for the mismatching module sizes, the 68 is half the voltage of the  
136 but the same current. They both use the same cells. If you are  
only using a single string the MPPT controller will simple adjust for  
the Vmp of that circuit. However, as with any array, if you have  
multiple strings with mismatched string voltages, the controller will  
"see" a lower average and you will, at the least, be wasting power.  
The bypass diodes have nothing to do with mismatched strings.


If you are comparing arrays with different angle of incidence and  
without shading, the one most perpendicular to the sun will perform  
the best.


Kindest Regards,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
11279 S. Glenwood Ave #4
Yuma, AZ 85367
(928) 941-1660

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.starlightsolar.com


On Oct 31, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Geoff Greenfield wrote:

As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided  
feedback),  I have a second request:


Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar  
and conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own  
wrench thoughts?


I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are  
considering unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N),  
with plenty of partial shading, after getting a pitch about all  
sorts of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I think that this product has  
it's role and I occasionally sell it... But I am frustrated when I  
truly believe I can deliver a better net energy production with a  
tilted crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[Joel Davidson]

Hello Jay,
 
Sounds like something is wrong other than Unisolar vs. crystalline. All things 
being equal, the Unisolar should produce more kWh per kW than crystalline. 
Questions:
1. What modules and how many of each?
2. What inverter or inverters?
3. Geographic location?
4. Array azimuth and tilt?
 
Best regards,
Joel Davidson



- Original Message 
From: jay peltz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:27:19 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

Hi Geoff, 

In regards to the performance between Unisolar and crystalline, there is a side 
by side ( same watts, batteryless intertie with metering) installation up here 
on the North coast of California, and the the Unisolar is the constant 
under-performer.  This includes cloudy, sunny, warm, cold weather.

I have seen nothing in the field to support the Unisolar claims about better 
performance in low light etc.  That said, they do work better in very hot 
conditions, if thats what you have.

jay

peltz power



On Oct 31, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Geoff Greenfield wrote:

As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided feedback),  
I have a second request:
 
Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar and 
conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own wrench thoughts?
 
I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are considering 
unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N), with plenty of partial 
shading, after getting a pitch about all sorts of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I 
think that this product has it's role and I occasionally sell it... But I am 
frustrated when I truly believe I can deliver a better net energy production 
with a tilted crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).  

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
Founder and CEO
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111     Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed


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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[Ian Woofenden]

Hi Jay,

Is there documentation available on this side-by-side comparison? URL?

Thanks,

Ian


Hi Geoff,

In regards to the performance between Unisolar and crystalline, 
there is a side by side ( same watts, batteryless intertie with 
metering) installation up here on the North coast of California, and 
the the Unisolar is the constant under-performer.  This includes 
cloudy, sunny, warm, cold weather.


I have seen nothing in the field to support the Unisolar claims 
about better performance in low light etc.  That said, they do work 
better in very hot conditions, if thats what you have.


jay

peltz power


On Oct 31, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Geoff Greenfield wrote:

As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided 
feedback),  I have a second request:




Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar 
and conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own 
wrench thoughts?




I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are 
considering unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N), 
with plenty of partial shading, after getting a pitch about all 
sorts of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I think that this product has 
it's role and I occasionally sell it... But I am frustrated when I 
truly believe I can deliver a better net energy production with a 
tilted crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).  


For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
Founder and CEO
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed

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--
Ian Woofenden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Senior Editor, Home Power magazine
Subscriptions: $24.95 per year PO Box 520, Ashland, OR 97520 USA 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[Matt Tritt]

Hi Jay,

From my own Unisolar installations, and many comments from installers 
all over the US, I have to say that the system on the North coast is 
some kind of an anomaly if it isn't performing at least as well as a 
crystalline system of = power rating at the same or similar site with 
the same or similar degree of pitch. One possible answer could be 
related to the height of the standing seams at this installation, since 
the higher the seam, the greater the losses from shading (assuming that 
the array is oriented South). I have had good results from a shallow 
pitched East/West roof (!) with US modules because of the reduced 
morning and evening shading from the seams, and maybe not such great 
output from Southerly oriented arrays with a high standing seam roof.


However, it is absolutely the case that Unisolar modules will still 
produce energy while partly shaded, and this applies to entire strings 
as well. Because of this, they are a great choice for locations that 
might experience transient shading from utility poles, chimneys, trees, etc.


Matt T

jay peltz wrote:


Hi Geoff,

In regards to the performance between Unisolar and crystalline, there 
is a side by side ( same watts, batteryless intertie with metering) 
installation up here on the North coast of California, and the the 
Unisolar is the constant under-performer.  This includes cloudy, 
sunny, warm, cold weather.


I have seen nothing in the field to support the Unisolar claims about 
better performance in low light etc.  That said, they do work better 
in very hot conditions, if thats what you have.


jay

peltz power


On Oct 31, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Geoff Greenfield wrote:

As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided 
feedback),  I have a second request:


 

Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar 
and conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own wrench 
thoughts?


 

I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are 
considering unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N), 
with plenty of partial shading, after getting a pitch about all sorts 
of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I think that this product has it's role 
and I occasionally sell it... But I am frustrated when I truly 
believe I can deliver a better net energy production with a tilted 
crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).  
For a brighter energy future,


Geoff Greenfield
Founder and CEO
*Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
*340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com 

/Clean Energy - Expertly Installed
/

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Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.4/1753 - Release Date: 10/28/2008 9:20 PM


 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[Jeff Lahl]

In 2006, I managed a research project here in Hawaii sponsored by our local 
utility and the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) that did a  6-month 
side-by-side comparison of Uni-solar 64-watt modules and a leading 
single-crystal module.  Utilizing detailed system monitoring (Fat Spaniel), we 
found that the triple-junction Uni solar outperformed 7.6% during early morning 
low-light conditions, 10.3% under cloudy mid-day conditions and 7.2% during 
sunny mid-day conditions.  When it was predominantly cloudy most of the day, we 
saw the Unis producing 12% more across the whole day.Across the whole 6-month 
test period, we saw the Unis producing about 5% more overall, across all 
conditions.  For reference, this is a relatively cloudy site - typical of many 
places in Hawaii - it had a daily average of 4.2 peak hours during the 6-month 
test period.
 
Of course a characteristic of the Unisolar modules is that their output is 
considerably over spec. when out of the box and they then go through a burn-in 
period when light-soaking slowly reduces their output -supposedly down to a 
steady state output.  It was hard to get really specific information on this 
burn-in period from the manufacturer but we were told that most of the burn-in 
should happen over 100 hours of full sun.  To allow for this, we didn't start 
testing until 2 months after the installation was complete.  However, our data 
indicated that even after 8 months, the output per watt of sunlight was still 
slowly dropping (but still above the name-plate rating).  Obviously, some 
follow-up evaluation needs to be done now 2 years later.  The funding is gone 
but I plan to do it on a volunteer basis when time permits.
 
As someone else mentioned, output isn't the only bottom line, the extra real 
estate needed by the less efficient Unisolars need to be considered as well as 
the price per watt.  In my experience, it's pretty common to find single or 
poly modules that are more than 5% less per watt than the Unisolars.

Jeff Lahl
Project Director,
Solar Electric Light Fund (SELF)
155 Keonekai Rd
Kihei, HI 96753 USA
808 874-5706 (Phone and Fax)
808 283-0875 (Mobile)

--- On Fri, 10/31/08, ASAP POWER! 2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: ASAP POWER! 2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar
To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
Date: Friday, October 31, 2008, 6:01 AM



#yiv1206672442 p {margin:0;}

#yiv1206672442 {font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:12pt;color:#00;}

We have UniSolar on an East face and Kyocera on a West face.   UniSolar 
outperforms Kyocera in my opinion, but we will stick to solid crystalline Si 
for residential/commercial work for space efficiency and racking/mounting 
ease.   Nothing scientific because it's not side-by-side, but the lower energy 
early morning to mid-peak sun vs. afternoon peak to dusk contest is about neck 
and neck.  16,625kwh (Uni-Solar) vs. 16,893 (Kyocera) this morning on the 
monitor totals for both channels/systems.
 
Triple-junction thin-film is awesome compared to 1-j or 2-j thin-film, but by 
mid-2009 the market will be full of 1-J thin-film offerings going into 2-J 
production.  Trying to catch up they are -- to Stan.  Sharp has some 
interesting news about their exciting thin-film product for Europe this 
morning, but we won't see that here in the US anytime soon apparently.
 
However, the problem for me with UniSolar is that all their claims would be 
perfectly ok with me if their one dreamy promise of lower cost per watt also 
came true.
 
PD 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoff Greenfield
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:09 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar



As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided feedback),  
I have a second request:
 
Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar and 
conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own wrench thoughts?
 
I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are considering 
unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N), with plenty of partial 
shading, after getting a pitch about all sorts of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I 
think that this product has it's role and I occasionally sell it... But I am 
frustrated when I truly believe I can deliver a better net energy production 
with a tilted crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).  

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
Founder and CEO
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111     Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed


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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[ASAP POWER! 2]

We have UniSolar on an East face and Kyocera on a West face.   UniSolar
outperforms Kyocera in my opinion, but we will stick to solid crystalline Si
for residential/commercial work for space efficiency and racking/mounting
ease.   Nothing scientific because it's not side-by-side, but the lower
energy early morning to mid-peak sun vs. afternoon peak to dusk contest is
about neck and neck.  16,625kwh (Uni-Solar) vs. 16,893 (Kyocera) this
morning on the monitor totals for both channels/systems.
 
Triple-junction thin-film is awesome compared to 1-j or 2-j thin-film, but
by mid-2009 the market will be full of 1-J thin-film offerings going into
2-J production.  Trying to catch up they are -- to Stan.  Sharp has some
interesting news about their exciting thin-film product for Europe this
morning, but we won't see that here in the US anytime soon apparently.
 
However, the problem for me with UniSolar is that all their claims would be
perfectly ok with me if their one dreamy promise of lower cost per watt also
came true.
 
PD 
  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoff
Greenfield
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:09 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar



As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided
feedback),  I have a second request:

 

Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar and
conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own wrench thoughts?

 

I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are
considering unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N), with
plenty of partial shading, after getting a pitch about all sorts of
advantages of Uni-Solar.  I think that this product has it's role and I
occasionally sell it... But I am frustrated when I truly believe I can
deliver a better net energy production with a tilted crystalline solution
(avoiding the shaded areas).  


For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
Founder and CEO
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed



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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[jay peltz]

Hi Geoff,

In regards to the performance between Unisolar and crystalline, there  
is a side by side ( same watts, batteryless intertie with metering)  
installation up here on the North coast of California, and the the  
Unisolar is the constant under-performer.  This includes cloudy,  
sunny, warm, cold weather.


I have seen nothing in the field to support the Unisolar claims about  
better performance in low light etc.  That said, they do work better  
in very hot conditions, if thats what you have.


jay

peltz power


On Oct 31, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Geoff Greenfield wrote:

As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided  
feedback),  I have a second request:


Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar  
and conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own  
wrench thoughts?


I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are  
considering unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N),  
with plenty of partial shading, after getting a pitch about all  
sorts of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I think that this product has  
it's role and I occasionally sell it... But I am frustrated when I  
truly believe I can deliver a better net energy production with a  
tilted crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
Founder and CEO
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed


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Re: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[Wind-sun.com]

This is very similar to the old argument (sales pitch) that single-crystal 
panels are better because they have better low light performance.

While basically true, it is meaningless. Getting an extra 10% when your light 
levels are down to 2% of full sun is almost totally irrelevant. One of phrases 
bandied about over the years has been "shade tolerant".

The problem is that most consumers do not realize just how much lower the light 
levels are in shade compared to full sun. Eyes adjust to lower light levels, 
but solar panels do not.

..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun
..
  - Original Message - 
  From: Geoff Greenfield 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:08 AM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar


  ...I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are 
considering unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N), with plenty 
of partial shading, after getting a pitch about all sorts of advantages of 
Uni-Solar
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[RE-wrenches] crystalline VS uni-solar

[Geoff Greenfield]

As a follow up to my uni-solar post (and thanks to all who provided feedback),  
I have a second request: 



Any references to recent side-by side "shoot-outs" between Unisolar and 
conventional crystaline PV?  Scientific studies?  Your own wrench thoughts? 



I am more and more often encountering confused customers that are considering 
unisolar systems at zero-tilt (we are at 40 degrees N), with plenty of partial 
shading, after getting a pitch about all sorts of advantages of Uni-Solar.  I 
think that this product has it's role and I occasionally sell it... But I am 
frustrated when I truly believe I can deliver a better net energy production 
with a tilted crystalline solution (avoiding the shaded areas).  

For a brighter energy future, 

Geoff Greenfield 
Founder and CEO 
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd. 
340 West State Street, Unit 25 
Athens, OH 45701 

740.597.3111     Fax 740.597.1548 
www.Third-Sun.com 

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed 


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