Re: [RE-wrenches] parallel stacking SW
Hi William, In theory, this would be possible, but you have to consider the 60A transfer relay rating, so if we are dealing with SW5548 (5.5kW) models, you will only add approx 1700W of power (per set) before nuisance tripping a 60A breaker. Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 10/03/2013 10:49 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] parallel stacking SW Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Mac: I approached this problem some years ago and posted about it on this forum. What I heard is that, yes, it can be done. The actual process is known by a few former Trace engineers and could not be divulged due to confidentiality agreements signed when Outback split off from Xantrex (or Trace, if that is what it was called at the time). If you know a former Trace Engineer, you might be able to wrest the information out of them if the stature of limitations has expired. Of course I was not satisfied with “this information is only is for some to know,” so I worked on the problem. My idea is to connect two inverters in series and then feed them into the AC1 inputs of two more inverters in parallel. Since the SW inverters can provide true “Gen Support” mode, the downstream inverters can assist the upstream inverters, therefore providing the gross power of all four inverters. See this page for a drawing.Look about halfway down the page for Cascading SW inverters. Now I have come up with some pretty strange ideas in my time, but I think this is one of the more wacky, but actually possible solutions. I never had the chance to test this scheme, but I would love to know if it would actually work. William PS: Just as I was finishing this email I remembered the situation I was trying to correct. The other idea is here: Link I don’t recommend this technique for the reasons stated on the web site, but there may the germ of an idea that may work. It would have to do with feeding a transformer from opposite ends with paralleled inverters. How to keep them in sync… Good Luck, William Miller From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [ mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 8:01 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] parallel stacking SW Hi wrenches, I have some folks that I'm meeting in a couple of days that have 4 Trace SW 5048 inverters. It's a very large, older compound-style installation that the original installer has bailed on. They have it set up so that there is a common battery bank and each pair of series stacked inverters are independently feeding 2 separate 120/240 busses. One of these 120/240 services gets utilized very heavily, and one isn't really used at all. Is it possible with this type of inverter, to have all four inverters feeding a common AC bus, two feed Phase A and the other two feeding phase B? I know that is possible to series stack and to parallel stack this inverter, but can you do both at the same time? If so, does anyone have a pin out to a parallel stacking cable? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4142 / Virus Database: 3604/6704 - Release Date: 09/27/13 __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] parallel stacking SW
Mac: I approached this problem some years ago and posted about it on this forum. What I heard is that, yes, it can be done. The actual process is known by a few former Trace engineers and could not be divulged due to confidentiality agreements signed when Outback split off from Xantrex (or Trace, if that is what it was called at the time). If you know a former Trace Engineer, you might be able to wrest the information out of them if the stature of limitations has expired. Of course I was not satisfied with this information is only is for some to know, so I worked on the problem. My idea is to connect two inverters in series and then feed them into the AC1 inputs of two more inverters in parallel. Since the SW inverters can provide true Gen Support mode, the downstream inverters can assist the upstream inverters, therefore providing the gross power of all four inverters. See this page http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/case_studies.html for a drawing.Look about halfway down the page for Cascading SW inverters. Now I have come up with some pretty strange ideas in my time, but I think this is one of the more wacky, but actually possible solutions. I never had the chance to test this scheme, but I would love to know if it would actually work. William PS: Just as I was finishing this email I remembered the situation I was trying to correct. The other idea is here: Link http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/pv_school/pv_school_wir ing_digrams.html I dont recommend this technique for the reasons stated on the web site, but there may the germ of an idea that may work. It would have to do with feeding a transformer from opposite ends with paralleled inverters. How to keep them in sync Good Luck, William Miller From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 8:01 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] parallel stacking SW Hi wrenches, I have some folks that I'm meeting in a couple of days that have 4 Trace SW 5048 inverters. It's a very large, older compound-style installation that the original installer has bailed on. They have it set up so that there is a common battery bank and each pair of series stacked inverters are independently feeding 2 separate 120/240 busses. One of these 120/240 services gets utilized very heavily, and one isn't really used at all. Is it possible with this type of inverter, to have all four inverters feeding a common AC bus, two feed Phase A and the other two feeding phase B? I know that is possible to series stack and to parallel stack this inverter, but can you do both at the same time? If so, does anyone have a pin out to a parallel stacking cable? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4142 / Virus Database: 3604/6704 - Release Date: 09/27/13 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] parallel stacking SW
Hi wrenches, I have some folks that I'm meeting in a couple of days that have 4 Trace SW 5048 inverters. It's a very large, older compound-style installation that the original installer has bailed on. They have it set up so that there is a common battery bank and each pair of series stacked inverters are independently feeding 2 separate 120/240 busses. One of these 120/240 services gets utilized very heavily, and one isn't really used at all. Is it possible with this type of inverter, to have all four inverters feeding a common AC bus, two feed Phase A and the other two feeding phase B? I know that is possible to series stack and to parallel stack this inverter, but can you do both at the same time? If so, does anyone have a pin out to a parallel stacking cable? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis * Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates * ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] parallel stacking SW
Mac, Trace made both the SWI/PAR parallel stacking and a series stacking cable. I don't know if stacking four units in series/parallel is possible. I never investigated it, and the manual (Rev. 4.01) doesn't address it. I suspect that it's not possible, from this section on page 96: The parallel stacking interface cable (SWI/PAR) simply plugs into the stacking port on the left end of each inverter and allows the two inverters to operate as a single inverter. The interface method is based on the series stacking system offered for the SW Series inverters since their introduction for the North American market. The parallel stacking system operates the inverters in phase by having one of the inverters operate as the MASTER and the other as a SLAVE. When an AC source is connected, the MASTER first synchronizes to the AC source, then connects to it and battery charges. Since the SLAVE follows the master and is set-up with a longer warm-up delay, the SLAVE inverter is already synchronized when it transfers the loads and starts battery charging. This allows very smooth transitions from inverter mode to charger mode. I'd interpret this to mean that the SWI/PAR cable uses the only stacking port available. But the bigger issue is this: must you change it? It doesn't matter that one pair works hard and the other rests unless the hardworking pair aren't up to the job. Unless you have overload shutdowns, there's no benefit to parallel stacking, and you're messing with obsolete legacy hardware that's not supported and for which parts and service will be difficult to obtain (good luck finding a pair of SWI/PAR cables...). I'd advise against changing the system configuration if there are no problems now - it sounds like a solution in search of a problem. Just my $.02... Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder, Positive Energy, Inc. A Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com On 10/2/2013 9:01 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi wrenches, I have some folks that I'm meeting in a couple of days that have 4 Trace SW 5048 inverters. It's a very large, older compound-style installation that the original installer has bailed on. They have it set up so that there is a common battery bank and each pair of series stacked inverters are independently feeding 2 separate 120/240 busses. One of these 120/240 services gets utilized very heavily, and one isn't really used at all. Is it possible with this type of inverter, to have all four inverters feeding a common AC bus, two feed Phase A and the other two feeding phase B? I know that is possible to series stack and to parallel stack this inverter, but can you do both at the same time? If so, does anyone have a pin out to a parallel stacking cable? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo s que no s nada."-Scrates ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings:
Re: [RE-wrenches] parallel stacking SW
Wrenches, Nick, you are right it is a 5548. I like the separation idea and have investigated this, but each bus feeds separate homes that are quite a distance away. Alan, I forgot to mention that they often get nuisance overcurrent errors on each phase of the heavily used inverters. That was why I was interested in putting the under-utilized equipment to use. From my research it looks like this is not possible with this equipment. Thanks On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: Mac, Trace made both the SWI/PAR parallel stacking and a series stacking cable. I don't know if stacking four units in series/parallel is possible. I never investigated it, and the manual (Rev. 4.01) doesn't address it. I suspect that it's not possible, from this section on page 96: The parallel stacking interface cable (SWI/PAR) simply plugs into the stacking port on the left end of each inverter and allows the two inverters to operate as a single inverter. The interface method is based on the series stacking system offered for the SW Series inverters since their introduction for the North American market. The parallel stacking system operates the inverters in phase by having one of the inverters operate as the MASTER and the other as a SLAVE. When an AC source is connected, the MASTER first synchronizes to the AC source, then connects to it and battery charges. Since the SLAVE follows the master and is set-up with a longer warm-up delay, the SLAVE inverter is already synchronized when it transfers the loads and starts battery charging. This allows very smooth transitions from inverter mode to charger mode. I'd interpret this to mean that the SWI/PAR cable uses the only stacking port available. But the bigger issue is this: must you change it? It doesn't matter that one pair works hard and the other rests unless the hardworking pair aren't up to the job. Unless you have overload shutdowns, there's no benefit to parallel stacking, and you're messing with obsolete legacy hardware that's not supported and for which parts and service will be difficult to obtain (good luck finding a pair of SWI/PAR cables...). I'd advise against changing the system configuration if there are no problems now - it sounds like a solution in search of a problem. Just my $.02... Allan ** ** ** ** ** *Allan Sindelar* *al...@positiveenergysolar.com* al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder, *Positive Energy, Inc.* A Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane** **Santa Fe**, **New Mexico** **87507 *505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell* *www.positiveenergysolar.com* http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/ ** On 10/2/2013 9:01 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi wrenches, I have some folks that I'm meeting in a couple of days that have 4 Trace SW 5048 inverters. It's a very large, older compound-style installation that the original installer has bailed on. They have it set up so that there is a common battery bank and each pair of series stacked inverters are independently feeding 2 separate 120/240 busses. One of these 120/240 services gets utilized very heavily, and one isn't really used at all. Is it possible with this type of inverter, to have all four inverters feeding a common AC bus, two feed Phase A and the other two feeding phase B? I know that is possible to series stack and to parallel stack this inverter, but can you do both at the same time? If so, does anyone have a pin out to a parallel stacking cable? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis * Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates * ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis * Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates * ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive:
