Re: [RE-wrenches] Accessibility of Equipment on Roof was Are PV Systems Mechanical Equipment?
Oh, yes - that is a great application for the MNPV-AC. I didn't mean to imply there isn't a good use for them. In this particular instance the three MVPV-AC's are really subcombiners that get all get tied together in another subpanel at ground level. They really were not necessary, but made it more convenient and cost effective. It's just interesting how Midnite advertises that they can be mounted as flat as a 3:12 pitch. What application would allow this mounting angle where it is still readily accessible? The spec/advertising seems to imply that these can be roof mounted in an AC string combining application. The Soladeck combiner with fuses would appear to be non-code compliant in any situation. I would love for someone to refute that in a convincing way given the access requirements in 240.24(A). *Jason Szumlanski* *Fafco Solar* On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:31 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: Hi Jason, Is it possible to install them on the side of a building? And Dan's suggestion for the remote midnite might be perfect. jay On Feb 7, 2013, at 3:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Jay, I assume you mean pitched roofs, or not readily accessible flat roofs. This particular project happens to be a flat commercial roof, but with no permanent ladder or hatch. I really didn't have to use the MNPV6-AC's, but it made sense in this case (excluding the access issue). Looks like my options are to remove the combiners or install a permanent access. Neither are fun options. Live and learn... *Jason Szumlanski** * *Fafco Solar* On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 6:27 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: I'm with your inspector on this. I don't install fuses or breakers on roofs jay peltz power On Feb 7, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: While I haven't completely convinced the latest inspector about PV not being mechanical equipment, I'm running into another issue. I decided to try out the new Midnite MNPV6-AC combiner for Enphase circuits. Because there are overcurrent devices inside, the inspector now insists that NEC 240.24(A) applies and that the enclosure must be readily accessible, meaning you have to reach it without a ladder. That would seem to make the MNPV6-AC as a roof mounted solution, or Soladeck combiner boxes, or any other combiner box incorporating overcurrent protection, pretty much useless on a pitched roof or flat roof without a permanent access ladder or hatch. I'm debating whether to go to battle on this one or just capitulate. *Jason Szumlanski** * *Fafco Solar* * * P.S. To answer benn's question, there is no definition of 'mechanical,' but it does define 'equipment,' and it's clear to me that PV does not fit the description. mbers.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Accessibility of Equipment on Roof was Are PV Systems Mechanical Equipment?
Hi jason, 3 questions, I can't find the MNPV-AC in midnites price list, is this something custom or just new? And if you don't need breakers why not just do a junction box on the roof. and the inspectors I've had have requested a disconnecting means on the roof or visible from the roof. So I've done the enphase suggested switches on the roof, but no overcurrent. It doesn't appear that is a requirement from your inspector? jay peltz power On Feb 8, 2013, at 7:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Oh, yes - that is a great application for the MNPV-AC. I didn't mean to imply there isn't a good use for them. In this particular instance the three MVPV-AC's are really subcombiners that get all get tied together in another subpanel at ground level. They really were not necessary, but made it more convenient and cost effective. It's just interesting how Midnite advertises that they can be mounted as flat as a 3:12 pitch. What application would allow this mounting angle where it is still readily accessible? The spec/advertising seems to imply that these can be roof mounted in an AC string combining application. The Soladeck combiner with fuses would appear to be non-code compliant in any situation. I would love for someone to refute that in a convincing way given the access requirements in 240.24(A). Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:31 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: Hi Jason, Is it possible to install them on the side of a building? And Dan's suggestion for the remote midnite might be perfect. jay On Feb 7, 2013, at 3:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Jay, I assume you mean pitched roofs, or not readily accessible flat roofs. This particular project happens to be a flat commercial roof, but with no permanent ladder or hatch. I really didn't have to use the MNPV6-AC's, but it made sense in this case (excluding the access issue). Looks like my options are to remove the combiners or install a permanent access. Neither are fun options. Live and learn... Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Accessibility of Equipment on Roof was Are PV Systems Mechanical Equipment?
Jason, It seems to me that two of the exceptions in 240.24 may apply to your situation. Most significantly (4) For overcurrent devices adjacent to utilization equipment that they supply, access shall be permitted to be by portable means. Thus using a latter to access the ac combiner on the roof should be permitted. There should also be an accessible disconnect elsewhere (at the panel feeding the combiner for instance.) That (may) makes the breakers in the ac combiner supplementary and thus they wouldn't have to be accessible. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com On 2/8/2013 7:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Oh, yes - that is a great application for the MNPV-AC. I didn't mean to imply there isn't a good use for them. In this particular instance the three MVPV-AC's are really subcombiners that get all get tied together in another subpanel at ground level. They really were not necessary, but made it more convenient and cost effective. It's just interesting how Midnite advertises that they can be mounted as flat as a 3:12 pitch. What application would allow this mounting angle where it is still readily accessible? The spec/advertising seems to imply that these can be roof mounted in an AC string combining application. The Soladeck combiner with fuses would appear to be non-code compliant in any situation. I would love for someone to refute that in a convincing way given the access requirements in 240.24(A). *Jason Szumlanski* /Fafco Solar/ On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:31 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com mailto:j...@asis.com wrote: Hi Jason, Is it possible to install them on the side of a building? And Dan's suggestion for the remote midnite might be perfect. jay On Feb 7, 2013, at 3:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Jay, I assume you mean pitched roofs, or not readily accessible flat roofs. This particular project happens to be a flat commercial roof, but with no permanent ladder or hatch. I really didn't have to use the MNPV6-AC's, but it made sense in this case (excluding the access issue). Looks like my options are to remove the combiners or install a permanent access. Neither are fun options. Live and learn... *Jason Szumlanski*// /Fafco Solar/ On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 6:27 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com mailto:j...@asis.com wrote: I'm with your inspector on this. I don't install fuses or breakers on roofs jay peltz power On Feb 7, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: While I haven't completely convinced the latest inspector about PV not being mechanical equipment, I'm running into another issue. I decided to try out the new Midnite MNPV6-AC combiner for Enphase circuits. Because there are overcurrent devices inside, the inspector now insists that NEC 240.24(A) applies and that the enclosure must be readily accessible, meaning you have to reach it without a ladder. That would seem to make the MNPV6-AC as a roof mounted solution, or Soladeck combiner boxes, or any other combiner box incorporating overcurrent protection, pretty much useless on a pitched roof or flat roof without a permanent access ladder or hatch. I'm debating whether to go to battle on this one or just capitulate. *Jason Szumlanski*// /Fafco Solar/ / / P.S. To answer benn's question, there is no definition of 'mechanical,' but it does define 'equipment,' and it's clear to me that PV does not fit the description. mbers.re-wrenches.org http://mbers.re-wrenches.org/ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Accessibility of Equipment on Roof was Are PV Systems Mechanical Equipment?
Yeah, normally it would have been our practice to use a j-box and bring down three strings. In this case it made more sense to combine strings on the roof and just bring down a single circuit in a single conduit. Long story... long wire run... probably bad planning in hindsight. The MNPV6-AC is a new product with a disconnect on the front exterior and up to six breakers on a DIN rail that you can combine with bus bars that they supply. It is specifically for combining AC strings. I think it's rated for 120A per pole. I'm impressed with the units. It makes a great residential Enphase string combiner. List price is $239.00 and it's on their site as the last item here: http://www.midnitesolar.com/products.php?menuItem=productsproductCat_ID=34productCatName=PV%20Disconnecting%20Combiners%20-Not%20Birdhouse%20Compatible You are right - jurisdictions around here do not require disconnects on the roof. The AC connectors on the inverters suffice. We normally just do a j-box and transition to THWN. We've been using TC-ER to extend the trunk lines and just use one j-box with all circuits running down a single conduit to whatever combiner we need or to the load center for smaller systems. No utility discos 10kW here. Yay! *Jason Szumlanski** * *Fafco Solar* * * On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:11 AM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: Hi jason, 3 questions, I can't find the MNPV-AC in midnites price list, is this something custom or just new? And if you don't need breakers why not just do a junction box on the roof. and the inspectors I've had have requested a disconnecting means on the roof or visible from the roof. So I've done the enphase suggested switches on the roof, but no overcurrent. It doesn't appear that is a requirement from your inspector? jay peltz power On Feb 8, 2013, at 7:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Oh, yes - that is a great application for the MNPV-AC. I didn't mean to imply there isn't a good use for them. In this particular instance the three MVPV-AC's are really subcombiners that get all get tied together in another subpanel at ground level. They really were not necessary, but made it more convenient and cost effective. It's just interesting how Midnite advertises that they can be mounted as flat as a 3:12 pitch. What application would allow this mounting angle where it is still readily accessible? The spec/advertising seems to imply that these can be roof mounted in an AC string combining application. The Soladeck combiner with fuses would appear to be non-code compliant in any situation. I would love for someone to refute that in a convincing way given the access requirements in 240.24(A). *Jason Szumlanski* *Fafco Solar* On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 7:31 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: Hi Jason, Is it possible to install them on the side of a building? And Dan's suggestion for the remote midnite might be perfect. jay On Feb 7, 2013, at 3:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Jay, I assume you mean pitched roofs, or not readily accessible flat roofs. This particular project happens to be a flat commercial roof, but with no permanent ladder or hatch. I really didn't have to use the MNPV6-AC's, but it made sense in this case (excluding the access issue). Looks like my options are to remove the combiners or install a permanent access. Neither are fun options. Live and learn... *Jason Szumlanski** * *Fafco Solar* ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Accessibility of Equipment on Roof was Are PV Systems Mechanical Equipment?
I'm with your inspector on this. I don't install fuses or breakers on roofs jay peltz power On Feb 7, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: While I haven't completely convinced the latest inspector about PV not being mechanical equipment, I'm running into another issue. I decided to try out the new Midnite MNPV6-AC combiner for Enphase circuits. Because there are overcurrent devices inside, the inspector now insists that NEC 240.24(A) applies and that the enclosure must be readily accessible, meaning you have to reach it without a ladder. That would seem to make the MNPV6-AC as a roof mounted solution, or Soladeck combiner boxes, or any other combiner box incorporating overcurrent protection, pretty much useless on a pitched roof or flat roof without a permanent access ladder or hatch. I'm debating whether to go to battle on this one or just capitulate. Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar P.S. To answer benn's question, there is no definition of 'mechanical,' but it does define 'equipment,' and it's clear to me that PV does not fit the description. mbers.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Accessibility of Equipment on Roof was Are PV Systems Mechanical Equipment?
Jay, I assume you mean pitched roofs, or not readily accessible flat roofs. This particular project happens to be a flat commercial roof, but with no permanent ladder or hatch. I really didn't have to use the MNPV6-AC's, but it made sense in this case (excluding the access issue). Looks like my options are to remove the combiners or install a permanent access. Neither are fun options. Live and learn... *Jason Szumlanski** * *Fafco Solar* On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 6:27 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: I'm with your inspector on this. I don't install fuses or breakers on roofs jay peltz power On Feb 7, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: While I haven't completely convinced the latest inspector about PV not being mechanical equipment, I'm running into another issue. I decided to try out the new Midnite MNPV6-AC combiner for Enphase circuits. Because there are overcurrent devices inside, the inspector now insists that NEC 240.24(A) applies and that the enclosure must be readily accessible, meaning you have to reach it without a ladder. That would seem to make the MNPV6-AC as a roof mounted solution, or Soladeck combiner boxes, or any other combiner box incorporating overcurrent protection, pretty much useless on a pitched roof or flat roof without a permanent access ladder or hatch. I'm debating whether to go to battle on this one or just capitulate. *Jason Szumlanski** * *Fafco Solar* * * P.S. To answer benn's question, there is no definition of 'mechanical,' but it does define 'equipment,' and it's clear to me that PV does not fit the description. mbers.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Accessibility of Equipment on Roof was Are PV Systems Mechanical Equipment?
Might be a good application for the Midnite Disconnecting Combiners, with the control unit on the ground. -- Dan Fink, Executive Director; Otherpower Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers 970.672.4342 (voicemail) On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski ja...@fafcosolar.comwrote: Jay, I assume you mean pitched roofs, or not readily accessible flat roofs. This particular project happens to be a flat commercial roof, but with no permanent ladder or hatch. I really didn't have to use the MNPV6-AC's, but it made sense in this case (excluding the access issue). Looks like my options are to remove the combiners or install a permanent access. Neither are fun options. Live and learn... *Jason Szumlanski** * *Fafco Solar* On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 6:27 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: I'm with your inspector on this. I don't install fuses or breakers on roofs jay peltz power On Feb 7, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: While I haven't completely convinced the latest inspector about PV not being mechanical equipment, I'm running into another issue. I decided to try out the new Midnite MNPV6-AC combiner for Enphase circuits. Because there are overcurrent devices inside, the inspector now insists that NEC 240.24(A) applies and that the enclosure must be readily accessible, meaning you have to reach it without a ladder. That would seem to make the MNPV6-AC as a roof mounted solution, or Soladeck combiner boxes, or any other combiner box incorporating overcurrent protection, pretty much useless on a pitched roof or flat roof without a permanent access ladder or hatch. I'm debating whether to go to battle on this one or just capitulate. *Jason Szumlanski** * *Fafco Solar* * * P.S. To answer benn's question, there is no definition of 'mechanical,' but it does define 'equipment,' and it's clear to me that PV does not fit the description. mbers.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Accessibility of Equipment on Roof was Are PV Systems Mechanical Equipment?
Hi Jason, Is it possible to install them on the side of a building? And Dan's suggestion for the remote midnite might be perfect. jay On Feb 7, 2013, at 3:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Jay, I assume you mean pitched roofs, or not readily accessible flat roofs. This particular project happens to be a flat commercial roof, but with no permanent ladder or hatch. I really didn't have to use the MNPV6-AC's, but it made sense in this case (excluding the access issue). Looks like my options are to remove the combiners or install a permanent access. Neither are fun options. Live and learn... Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 6:27 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: I'm with your inspector on this. I don't install fuses or breakers on roofs jay peltz power On Feb 7, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: While I haven't completely convinced the latest inspector about PV not being mechanical equipment, I'm running into another issue. I decided to try out the new Midnite MNPV6-AC combiner for Enphase circuits. Because there are overcurrent devices inside, the inspector now insists that NEC 240.24(A) applies and that the enclosure must be readily accessible, meaning you have to reach it without a ladder. That would seem to make the MNPV6-AC as a roof mounted solution, or Soladeck combiner boxes, or any other combiner box incorporating overcurrent protection, pretty much useless on a pitched roof or flat roof without a permanent access ladder or hatch. I'm debating whether to go to battle on this one or just capitulate. Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar P.S. To answer benn's question, there is no definition of 'mechanical,' but it does define 'equipment,' and it's clear to me that PV does not fit the description. mbers.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
