Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module

[Mac Lewis]

There is a company called Genasun that I believe makes a boost solar charge
controller to do this.  They are in the marine world and I haven't poured
over their specs but they are worth checking out.

Try looking at
Genasun GVB-8-Li
Good Luck!


On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 11:43 AM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module.
> Vmp is 40.14V.
>
> It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity
> as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it
> takes to charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module.
>
> It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC
> solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to
> accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly
> thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms
> of efficiency I think. Maybe that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion -
> I'm not sure. AC Coupling would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring
> might be difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the inverter
> be on (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation either.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module

[Maverick Brown]

I saw solar charge controller that boosts the voltage to allow a 60-cell module 
to charge a 48V nominal battery, like in a golf cart to Lithium conversion. I 
think it was a Genasun GVB-8PB-48V-WP. I’m guessing there is a 72-cell version. 


Thank you,

Maverick


> On Apr 12, 2021, at 12:43 PM, Jason Szumlanski 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module. Vmp 
> is 40.14V. 
> 
> It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity as a 
> backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it takes 
> to charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module.
> 
> It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC 
> solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to accomplish 
> it without too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly thinking about 
> an AC coupled microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms of efficiency I 
> think. Maybe that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion - I'm not sure. AC 
> Coupling would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring might be 
> difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the inverter be on 
> (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation either.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module

[Kent Osterberg]

Jason,

Would a 96 cell Panasonic module fit in the space you have available? It 
would give you sufficient voltage to charge this battery.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar

On 4/12/2021 10:40 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell 
module. Vmp is 40.14V.


It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery 
capacity as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't 
matter how long it takes to charge it back up. And I have space for 
exactly one 72-cell module.


It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC 
solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to 
accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was 
half-heartedly thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but that 
has drawbacks in terms of efficiency I think. Maybe that's not any 
worse than DC-DC conversion - I'm not sure. AC Coupling would probably 
be cheaper and easier. Monitoring might be difficult/limited. And AC 
coupling would require that the inverter be on (inverting) which isn't 
ideal for this situation either.


Thanks in advance,

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module

[Jason Szumlanski]

I considered a 96-cell panel, but the highest watt panels don't compare to
new 72-cell panels coming out in the 400+ watt range. It's a good fallback
position because I might be losing more in the conversion than I am gaining
in the higher power output.

Jason Szumlanski


On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 2:23 PM Kent Osterberg  wrote:

> Jason,
>
> Would a 96 cell Panasonic module fit in the space you have available? It
> would give you sufficient voltage to charge this battery.
>
> Kent Osterberg
> Blue Mountain Solar
>
> On 4/12/2021 10:40 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>
> I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module.
> Vmp is 40.14V.
>
> It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity
> as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it
> takes to charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module.
>
> It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC
> solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to
> accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly
> thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms
> of efficiency I think. Maybe that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion -
> I'm not sure. AC Coupling would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring
> might be difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the inverter
> be on (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation either.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module

[Jason Szumlanski]

It looks like the Boost versions of the Genasun only go up to an 8A
input current rating. However, they have a footnote on the spec sheet that
reads:

"*Panel ratings have increased since we designed the GVB. Although we don't
believe in changing specifications without a corresponding engineering
change, based on both our customers' experiences over the years as well as
the headroom we designed into the GVB, we feel comfortable recommending the
GVB for panels with Imp up to 9A."

That won't work for a 420W module with an 11.05A Imp. Very good to know
about this product, nonetheless. Thank you!

Jason



On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 2:03 PM Mac Lewis  wrote:

> There is a company called Genasun that I believe makes a boost solar
> charge controller to do this.  They are in the marine world and I haven't
> poured over their specs but they are worth checking out.
>
> Try looking at
> Genasun GVB-8-Li
> Good Luck!
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 11:43 AM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module.
>> Vmp is 40.14V.
>>
>> It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity
>> as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it
>> takes to charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module.
>>
>> It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC
>> solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to
>> accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly
>> thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms
>> of efficiency I think. Maybe that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion -
>> I'm not sure. AC Coupling would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring
>> might be difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the inverter
>> be on (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation either.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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>
> --
>
>
>
> Mac Lewis
>
> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module

[John Blittersdorf]

I have a Genasun 36 volt charger on my golf cart boosting from
a  Kyosera 245 panel (26.9vm 29 voc) on the roof of the cart.   Works
perfectly.  I'm starting year 12 running this rig with solar only.
I originally had 3 85 watt Sunwize panels on it and about 3 years ago I
decided I didn't like the water dripping between the panels when it rained
and had an orphan 245 so order the Genesun which lives under the seat next
to the batteries.

John Blittersdorf

.

On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 1:43 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module.
> Vmp is 40.14V.
>
> It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity
> as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it
> takes to charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module.
>
> It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC
> solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to
> accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly
> thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms
> of efficiency I think. Maybe that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion -
> I'm not sure. AC Coupling would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring
> might be difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the inverter
> be on (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation either.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module

[wes kennedy]

I second the Genasun product line. I've done a few golf cart charging systems. 
works like a charm. 
-Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 

On Monday, April 12, 2021, 12:03:52 PM MDT, Mac Lewis  
wrote:  
 
 There is a company called Genasun that I believe makes a boost solar charge 
controller to do this.  They are in the marine world and I haven't poured over 
their specs but they are worth checking out.  
Try looking at 
Genasun GVB-8-Li
Good Luck!

On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 11:43 AM Jason Szumlanski 
 wrote:

I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module. Vmp is 
40.14V. 
It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity as a 
backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it takes to 
charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module.
It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC solution 
for this charging scenario or if there is another way to accomplish it without 
too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly thinking about an AC coupled 
microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms of efficiency I think. Maybe 
that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion - I'm not sure. AC Coupling would 
probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring might be difficult/limited. And AC 
coupling would require that the inverter be on (inverting) which isn't ideal 
for this situation either.
Thanks in advance,
Jason SzumlanskiFlorida Solar Design 
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Mac Lewis


"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module

[Jason Szumlanski]

That's what I was thinking. Not a MPPT controller... Just a "dumb" booster
that put the voltage high enough for any off the shelf MPPT controller. But
it can't really work like that. The MPPT function need to be at the lower
voltage side of the device I think.

On Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 9:38 PM Nick A Lucchese  wrote:

> Jason, Mack, Maverick, Kent and John,
>
> Looks like the Genasun absorb set points are 57.6 right? Were you still
> needing this for a LiFePO4 battery option Jason? Maybe they offer a
> different voltage setpoint option I’m not seeing? I’ve needed something
> like this for a couple applications as well. Even if something like this
> existed to boost output voltage before going into a larger controller like
> an FM60 or Midnite option.
>
> At least with today’s newer 60 cell modules we can put a couple in series
> and Vmpp will still be high enough to hit absorb set points for lithium
> options even after heating up. A luxury we didn’t have in the past with FLA
> and periodic requirements for EQ’ing. I know two 60 cell modules is much
> more footprint than a single but at least we have that.
>
> Enjoy your night, Nick
>
> On Apr 12, 2021, at 10:40 AM, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module.
> Vmp is 40.14V.
>
> It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity
> as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it
> takes to charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module.
>
> It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC
> solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to
> accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly
> thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms
> of efficiency I think. Maybe that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion -
> I'm not sure. AC Coupling would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring
> might be difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the inverter
> be on (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation either.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module

[Kent Osterberg]

Genasun is a very interesting option and it looks like they also have a 
charge controller set for 54.2 volts which is probably the right charge 
voltage, but it is only rated for a PV max power point current of 8 amps 
(maybe 9). Ten amps from a 420 W solar panel might be pushing it too 
hard, certainly beyond its specs.


Most "dumb" voltage converters operate around 85% efficiency. If taking 
that much loss, it would be better to use a lower power, higher voltage 
PV module with a common MPPT controller. That is one less part to fail too.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar

On 4/12/2021 7:27 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
That's what I was thinking. Not a MPPT controller... Just a "dumb" 
booster that put the voltage high enough for any off the shelf MPPT 
controller. But it can't really work like that. The MPPT function need 
to be at the lower voltage side of the device I think.


On Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 9:38 PM Nick A Lucchese > wrote:


Jason, Mack, Maverick, Kent and John,

Looks like the Genasun absorb set points are 57.6 right? Were you
still needing this for a LiFePO4 battery option Jason? Maybe they
offer a different voltage setpoint option I’m not seeing? I’ve
needed something like this for a couple applications as well. Even
if something like this existed to boost output voltage before
going into a larger controller like an FM60 or Midnite option.

At least with today’s newer 60 cell modules we can put a couple in
series and Vmpp will still be high enough to hit absorb set points
for lithium options even after heating up. A luxury we didn’t have
in the past with FLA and periodic requirements for EQ’ing. I know
two 60 cell modules is much more footprint than a single but at
least we have that.

Enjoy your night, Nick


On Apr 12, 2021, at 10:40 AM, Jason Szumlanski
mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com>> wrote:

I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell
module. Vmp is 40.14V.

It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery
capacity as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't
matter how long it takes to charge it back up. And I have space
for exactly one 72-cell module.

It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a
DC-DC solution for this charging scenario or if there is another
way to accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was
half-heartedly thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but
that has drawbacks in terms of efficiency I think. Maybe that's
not any worse than DC-DC conversion - I'm not sure. AC Coupling
would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring might be
difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the
inverter be on (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation
either.

Thanks in advance,

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches
Here is just a thought, each module is either 2, 3 or some with 4 strings
within a single module, so you open the junction box remove the diodes and
cut the buss jumpers, reconfigure the box to a single longer string to
multiply the voltage and equally divide the amperage. you will need to keep
the new VOC and VMP within the usable range of the charge controller.
Of course this will void any warranty of the module, also be aware of
higher voltage when exposed to sunlight. In the past I was involved in
military grade manufacturing of foldable modules designed specifically for
systems with no charge controller but this is a down and dirty solution.
Just a thought

I

On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 1:52 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> I considered a 96-cell panel, but the highest watt panels don't compare to
> new 72-cell panels coming out in the 400+ watt range. It's a good fallback
> position because I might be losing more in the conversion than I am gaining
> in the higher power output.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 2:23 PM Kent Osterberg 
> wrote:
>
>> Jason,
>>
>> Would a 96 cell Panasonic module fit in the space you have available? It
>> would give you sufficient voltage to charge this battery.
>>
>> Kent Osterberg
>> Blue Mountain Solar
>>
>> On 4/12/2021 10:40 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>>
>> I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module.
>> Vmp is 40.14V.
>>
>> It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity
>> as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it
>> takes to charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module.
>>
>> It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC
>> solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to
>> accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly
>> thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms
>> of efficiency I think. Maybe that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion -
>> I'm not sure. AC Coupling would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring
>> might be difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the inverter
>> be on (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation either.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module

[Nick A Lucchese]

Jason, Mack, Maverick, Kent and John,

Looks like the Genasun absorb set points are 57.6 right? Were you still needing 
this for a LiFePO4 battery option Jason? Maybe they offer a different voltage 
setpoint option I’m not seeing? I’ve needed something like this for a couple 
applications as well. Even if something like this existed to boost output 
voltage before going into a larger controller like an FM60 or Midnite option.

At least with today’s newer 60 cell modules we can put a couple in series and 
Vmpp will still be high enough to hit absorb set points for lithium options 
even after heating up. A luxury we didn’t have in the past with FLA and 
periodic requirements for EQ’ing. I know two 60 cell modules is much more 
footprint than a single but at least we have that.

Enjoy your night, Nick

> On Apr 12, 2021, at 10:40 AM, Jason Szumlanski 
>  wrote:
> 
> I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module. Vmp 
> is 40.14V. 
> 
> It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity as a 
> backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it takes 
> to charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module.
> 
> It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC 
> solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to accomplish 
> it without too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly thinking about 
> an AC coupled microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms of efficiency I 
> think. Maybe that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion - I'm not sure. AC 
> Coupling would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring might be 
> difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the inverter be on 
> (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation either.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module

[Alex MeVay]

Hi Jason, et al.,

Applications in our size range don't come up too often on this list,
so I've been mostly an appreciative lurker, but I'd like to introduce
myself as the contact for Genasun and Blue Sky Energy, (and the
engineer behind the GVB-8 controller in question).

To address a few of the questions that have been asked, the GVB-8 can
be programmed at the factory with any custom charge profile desired if
none of the off-the-shelf options are a good match.  Efficiency at
~48V nominal is >98% over most of the power range, and the controllers
employ true MPPT, so no configuration is necessary for different
panels.

As mentioned, 10A Imp input is on the high side for the GVB.  Most
Genasun controllers were designed when PV was expensive and panels
were smaller.  Although they do have current limits and thermal
rollback for self-protection, running continuously at the standard
current limit would be hard on the electronics.  Panels have grown,
and there is more interest in PV-heavy installations.  As we redesign
and re-qualify our controllers, we have developed a few workarounds.
The GVB-8 can be ordered with the LOWCURLIM (low current limit)
firmware option, which limits the input current to about the rated 8A,
allowing use with oversize panels, such as the 420W panel in question.

Separately, thank you all for the expertise you share on this list.
I've learned a lot about installation and code issues for small (and
large) solar, and it's given me a great appreciation for the
challenges you face trying to integrate all the various pieces of
equipment to give your customers a good experience.

Regards,

Alex MeVay

Genasun * Blue Sky Energy * http://sunforgellc.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module

[la...@starlightsolar.com]

We have used a few of the Genasun up converters on 48V golf carts. They have 
worked flawlessly. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Apr 13, 2021, at 10:13 AM, Alex MeVay  wrote:

Hi Jason, et al.,

Applications in our size range don't come up too often on this list,
so I've been mostly an appreciative lurker, but I'd like to introduce
myself as the contact for Genasun and Blue Sky Energy, (and the
engineer behind the GVB-8 controller in question).

To address a few of the questions that have been asked, the GVB-8 can
be programmed at the factory with any custom charge profile desired if
none of the off-the-shelf options are a good match.  Efficiency at
~48V nominal is >98% over most of the power range, and the controllers
employ true MPPT, so no configuration is necessary for different
panels.

As mentioned, 10A Imp input is on the high side for the GVB.  Most
Genasun controllers were designed when PV was expensive and panels
were smaller.  Although they do have current limits and thermal
rollback for self-protection, running continuously at the standard
current limit would be hard on the electronics.  Panels have grown,
and there is more interest in PV-heavy installations.  As we redesign
and re-qualify our controllers, we have developed a few workarounds.
The GVB-8 can be ordered with the LOWCURLIM (low current limit)
firmware option, which limits the input current to about the rated 8A,
allowing use with oversize panels, such as the 420W panel in question.

Separately, thank you all for the expertise you share on this list.
I've learned a lot about installation and code issues for small (and
large) solar, and it's given me a great appreciation for the
challenges you face trying to integrate all the various pieces of
equipment to give your customers a good experience.

Regards,

Alex MeVay

Genasun * Blue Sky Energy * http://sunforgellc.com
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