Re: [RE-wrenches] bad battery = system overvoltage = dead inverter

[Dan Fink]

Morningstar tristar MPPT60
Dan Fink,



On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 9:27 AM, Jay Peltz  wrote:
> Hi Dan
>
> Can you tell us which CC?
>
> Thx
>
> Jay
>
> Peltz power
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] bad battery = system overvoltage = dead inverter

[Jay Peltz]

Hi Dan

Can you tell us which CC?

Thx

Jay

Peltz power

Sent from my iPhone
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] bad battery = system overvoltage = dead inverter

[Randy Brooks]

Has anyone tried using a battery management system (BMS) like those used on 
electric vehicle battery banks?  Here is an example:
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/products?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=87&category_id=22

Randy Brooks
Brooks Solar, Inc.
Solar Power for People
140 Columbia View
Chelan, WA  98816
509-682-9646
ra...@brookssolar.com
www.BrooksSolar.com

On Mar 15, 2013, at 8:05 PM, Dan Fink  wrote:

> This has been happening all too frequently here. We live in a big area
> of off grid homes, dozens of systems.
> Lost a customers Trace 2624 this morning; One L-16 in older 24v bank
> opened internally. PV array/MPPT control zorched inverter as soon as
> the sun came up. First indication of problems last nite when customer
> hit microwave to warm up dinner and inverter went crazy. This morning
> the bad battery showed 3.2v (yes, I would expect 2 or 4 also) the rest
> the usual 6+v. Turned on PV array, bad battery immediately up to 11v
> (yes, 6v L16).
> 
> Somebody needs to build a "battery condom" with big stacked diodes on
> a big heat sink or some such solution. A voltage brick wall for system
> charging inputs. MPPT PV controllers do NOT protect a inverter from
> input overvoltage if all or part of the battery bank disappears! And
> last year we saw a nice battery box fire and zorched inverters due to
> similar -- dual 48v L16 strings, one cell failed and opened, other
> string dumped everything into the bad one, smoke and flames. Parallel
> fusing would have stopped that..but not stopped the loss of dual
> stacked XW inverters from PV overvoltage.
> 
> Or am I missing something here?
> 
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342
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Re: [RE-wrenches] bad battery = system overvoltage = dead inverter

[Ryan]

Chris
Yes some charge controllers regulate pretty slow. So if the battery goes 
away on them they can skyrocket in voltage on there battery side before 
they can catch themselves. This may only be for 2-3 seconds or so but 
that is all it takes to send an inverter up in smoke.


This is also the reason you here people complain of small AGM battery 
banks going over voltage from time to time. These same slower 
controllers will take that same 2-3 seconds to catch themselves if a big 
load is turned off.


Ryan
--
Ryan Stankevitz
Technical Support Manager
MidNite Solar Inc.
r...@midnitesolar.com
360-403-7207 XT 151
Skype ID ryan.midnite

On 3/16/2013 10:28 AM, Chris Mason wrote:
I want to understand the issue if you don't mind. Are you saying that 
an MPPT charge controller has no voltage limits? I would have presumed 
a CC would know that there is no batteries attached.
From your email, you want a device that will measure the CC output 
voltage, and shut it down if it exceeds a limit. For the 48V systems I 
normally install, that would be ...65V?
It would be trivial to setup an Arduino with a voltage input to 
monitor the CC output voltage. The harder part would be to turn off 
the CC when there was excessive voltage. Unless the CC had an Aux 
input, you would need a contact rated for the DC Current. Other than, 
it's very simple to do.



On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 11:05 PM, Dan Fink > wrote:


This has been happening all too frequently here. We live in a big area
of off grid homes, dozens of systems.
Lost a customers Trace 2624 this morning; One L-16 in older 24v bank
opened internally. PV array/MPPT control zorched inverter as soon as
the sun came up. First indication of problems last nite when customer
hit microwave to warm up dinner and inverter went crazy. This morning
the bad battery showed 3.2v (yes, I would expect 2 or 4 also) the rest
the usual 6+v. Turned on PV array, bad battery immediately up to 11v
(yes, 6v L16).

Somebody needs to build a "battery condom" with big stacked diodes on
a big heat sink or some such solution. A voltage brick wall for system
charging inputs. MPPT PV controllers do NOT protect a inverter from
input overvoltage if all or part of the battery bank disappears! And
last year we saw a nice battery box fire and zorched inverters due to
similar -- dual 48v L16 strings, one cell failed and opened, other
string dumped everything into the bad one, smoke and flames. Parallel
fusing would have stopped that..but not stopped the loss of dual
stacked XW inverters from PV overvoltage.

Or am I missing something here?

Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342
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--
Chris Mason
President, Comet Systems Ltd
www.cometenergysystems.com 
Cell: 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts


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Re: [RE-wrenches] bad battery = system overvoltage = dead inverter

[Chris Mason]

I want to understand the issue if you don't mind. Are you saying that an
MPPT charge controller has no voltage limits? I would have presumed a CC
would know that there is no batteries attached.
>From your email, you want a device that will measure the CC output voltage,
and shut it down if it exceeds a limit. For the 48V systems I normally
install, that would be ...65V?
It would be trivial to setup an Arduino with a voltage input to monitor the
CC output voltage. The harder part would be to turn off the CC when there
was excessive voltage. Unless the CC had an Aux input, you would need a
contact rated for the DC Current. Other than, it's very simple to do.


On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 11:05 PM, Dan Fink  wrote:

> This has been happening all too frequently here. We live in a big area
> of off grid homes, dozens of systems.
> Lost a customers Trace 2624 this morning; One L-16 in older 24v bank
> opened internally. PV array/MPPT control zorched inverter as soon as
> the sun came up. First indication of problems last nite when customer
> hit microwave to warm up dinner and inverter went crazy. This morning
> the bad battery showed 3.2v (yes, I would expect 2 or 4 also) the rest
> the usual 6+v. Turned on PV array, bad battery immediately up to 11v
> (yes, 6v L16).
>
> Somebody needs to build a "battery condom" with big stacked diodes on
> a big heat sink or some such solution. A voltage brick wall for system
> charging inputs. MPPT PV controllers do NOT protect a inverter from
> input overvoltage if all or part of the battery bank disappears! And
> last year we saw a nice battery box fire and zorched inverters due to
> similar -- dual 48v L16 strings, one cell failed and opened, other
> string dumped everything into the bad one, smoke and flames. Parallel
> fusing would have stopped that..but not stopped the loss of dual
> stacked XW inverters from PV overvoltage.
>
> Or am I missing something here?
>
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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> Change email address & settings:
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>


-- 
Chris Mason
President, Comet Systems Ltd
www.cometenergysystems.com
Cell: 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] bad battery = system overvoltage = dead inverter

[Ryan]

Dan
Not all MPPT controllers do this. We took great pains to stop this in 
the Classic. But even then there could be a wind turbine or something 
hooked direct that could cause this so I could see a possible need for it.


Ryan
--
Ryan Stankevitz
Technical Support Manager
MidNite Solar Inc.
r...@midnitesolar.com
360-403-7207 XT 151
Skype ID ryan.midnite

On 3/15/2013 11:05 PM, Dan Fink wrote:

This has been happening all too frequently here. We live in a big area
of off grid homes, dozens of systems.
Lost a customers Trace 2624 this morning; One L-16 in older 24v bank
opened internally. PV array/MPPT control zorched inverter as soon as
the sun came up. First indication of problems last nite when customer
hit microwave to warm up dinner and inverter went crazy. This morning
the bad battery showed 3.2v (yes, I would expect 2 or 4 also) the rest
the usual 6+v. Turned on PV array, bad battery immediately up to 11v
(yes, 6v L16).

Somebody needs to build a "battery condom" with big stacked diodes on
a big heat sink or some such solution. A voltage brick wall for system
charging inputs. MPPT PV controllers do NOT protect a inverter from
input overvoltage if all or part of the battery bank disappears! And
last year we saw a nice battery box fire and zorched inverters due to
similar -- dual 48v L16 strings, one cell failed and opened, other
string dumped everything into the bad one, smoke and flames. Parallel
fusing would have stopped that..but not stopped the loss of dual
stacked XW inverters from PV overvoltage.

Or am I missing something here?

Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342
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Re: [RE-wrenches] bad battery = system overvoltage = dead inverter

[James Jefferson Jarvis]

Hi Dan,

You can do it!

You are looking for a circuit called a crowbar. It is a SCR that turns 
on when a certain voltage is exceeded. Typically implemented with an SCR 
and a zener diode. The SCR, when turned on, shorts out the battery. And 
BAM you blow the big fuse in the battery bank or before the load you are 
trying to protect. So the SCR needs to be able to handle the fuse 
blowing current for just long enough to blow the fuse.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowbar_%28circuit%29

You could make a variant of this that trips a shunt trip circuit 
breaker. Midnite sells some shunt trip breakers that could be suitable. 
More expensive to do it this way, however.


-James Jarvis
APRS World, LLC

On 3/15/2013 10:05 PM, Dan Fink wrote:

This has been happening all too frequently here. We live in a big area
of off grid homes, dozens of systems.
Lost a customers Trace 2624 this morning; One L-16 in older 24v bank
opened internally. PV array/MPPT control zorched inverter as soon as
the sun came up. First indication of problems last nite when customer
hit microwave to warm up dinner and inverter went crazy. This morning
the bad battery showed 3.2v (yes, I would expect 2 or 4 also) the rest
the usual 6+v. Turned on PV array, bad battery immediately up to 11v
(yes, 6v L16).

Somebody needs to build a "battery condom" with big stacked diodes on
a big heat sink or some such solution. A voltage brick wall for system
charging inputs. MPPT PV controllers do NOT protect a inverter from
input overvoltage if all or part of the battery bank disappears! And
last year we saw a nice battery box fire and zorched inverters due to
similar -- dual 48v L16 strings, one cell failed and opened, other
string dumped everything into the bad one, smoke and flames. Parallel
fusing would have stopped that..but not stopped the loss of dual
stacked XW inverters from PV overvoltage.

Or am I missing something here?

Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342
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--
-James Jefferson Jarvis
APRS World, LLC
+1-507-454-2727
www.aprsworld.com
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