Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Ray Walters]

In the mountains, we also recommend propane for the startability factor, 
but if weather permits, or they have an indoor gen setup, Biodiesel can 
be very environmentally friendly.
I've seen some old Lister Petter diesel units that just seemed like 
they'll never stop.  Not a lot of electronics to go bad either.


Ray Walters

On 1/30/2013 3:02 PM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:

From an environmental standpoint I would always recommend propane over
diesel because of spillage and diesel fumes. I believe propane is much
cleaner burning, although likely the CO2 is probably similar.
 Just my .2

Daryl



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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[toddcory]

it sounds like my experience with this company about 10 years ago when i 
installed one of their 8 kW units as a grid back up for a customer. the battery 
charger was wired wrong out of the box... and they would not help me with 
troubleshooting... so i figured it out on my own. about 6 months later the 
mount for the starter broke (bad design) and the replacement was the same 
design - so we know how long that'll last... sigh. also a couple of voltage 
regulators have failed which burned up a few appliances in the customers home. 
all this was hampered by their "we only talk with dealers bullshit" = 
absolutely no support for wrenches in the field.
 
so, it sounds like they are still up to their old tricks and my vow to "never 
again" stands firmly in place.
 
todd
 
 
 
 
On Wednesday, January 30, 2013 3:13pm, "RM You"  
said:


I'm not a generator guy but had to supply a couple of generators for a contract 
last year. I had a look at the Generac EcoGen and liked what I saw. Additional 
reading confirmed that others felt positive about the EcoGen so I got a 
dealership. One year later here's my take on it - and unfortunately these 
generators I installed have not been run extensively (under 50 hours) so I 
don't have much real world experience with them.
One failed out of the box, couldn't get detailed service info from Generac as 
they only supply that to service level dealers, I am a retail dealer. Their 
recommendation was to call in a service tech who would service that under 
warranty. That was fine until you find out that the service tech, who has to 
travel a nine hour return trip to get to the site plus time on site would 
charge $1000+. The alternative was to pull the 500lb unit, haul it back to 
civilization and ship it to the service centre. Easily the same cost which is 
not covered by Generac. The problem seemed simple and I just needed some 
guidelines to troubleshoot but Generac would not give me access to tech 
support. I would have had to take the course for service tech level which 
required travelling to Wisconsin for a three day course, paying nearly $1000 in 
course fees plus airfare, accommodations and meals - maybe $3k total. And this 
requires re-certification every two years to maintain access to warranty parts 
and info.
Long story short I found a service level dealer who gave me some useful info 
and was good enough to supply some new brushes and a new propane intake valve. 
After two trips and a couple of 12 hour days I got it running but my confidence 
has been shaken both in the machine and the company.
there are a couple of good threads at this site for and against:
[http://zillerstore.com/forums/search.php?searchid=112095] 
http://zillerstore.com/forums/search.php?searchid=112095
[http://zillerstore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2268] 
http://zillerstore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2268


Ron Young
earthRight Products - [http://Solareagle.com] Solareagle.com


On 2013-01-29, at 7:39 PM, [mailto:toddc...@finestplanet.com] 
toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:

 

wrenches,


i am working on a design for an off grid camp. they need a new generator as the 
one they have is a total pos. 
i am interested in suggestions for a commercial grade, 10 to 15 kW propane 
fueled unit. are kohler and onan still the best thing going or am i living in 
the past?
thanks,


todd


Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[RM You]

I'm not a generator guy but had to supply a couple of generators for a contract 
last year. I had a look at the Generac EcoGen and liked what I saw. Additional 
reading confirmed that others felt positive about the EcoGen so I got a 
dealership. One year later here's my take on it - and unfortunately these 
generators I installed have not been run extensively (under 50 hours) so I 
don't have much real world experience with them.

One failed out of the box, couldn't get detailed service info from Generac as 
they only supply that to service level dealers, I am a retail dealer. Their 
recommendation was to call in a service tech who would service that under 
warranty. That was fine until you find out that the service tech, who has to 
travel a nine hour return trip to get to the site plus time on site would 
charge $1000+. The alternative was to pull the 500lb unit, haul it back to 
civilization and ship it to the service centre. Easily the same cost which is 
not covered by Generac. The problem seemed simple and I just needed some 
guidelines to troubleshoot but Generac would not give me access to tech 
support. I would have had to take the course for service tech level which 
required travelling to Wisconsin for a three day course, paying nearly $1000 in 
course fees plus airfare, accommodations and meals - maybe $3k total. And this 
requires re-certification every two years to maintain access to warranty parts 
and info.

Long story short I found a service level dealer who gave me some useful info 
and was good enough to supply some new brushes and a new propane intake valve. 
After two trips and a couple of 12 hour days I got it running but my confidence 
has been shaken both in the machine and the company.

there are a couple of good threads at this site for and against:

http://zillerstore.com/forums/search.php?searchid=112095

http://zillerstore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2268

Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com


On 2013-01-29, at 7:39 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:

> wrenches,
> 
> i am working on a design for an off grid camp. they need a new generator as 
> the one they have is a total pos.
> i am interested in suggestions for a commercial grade, 10 to 15 kW propane 
> fueled unit. are kohler and onan still the best thing going or am i living in 
> the past?
> thanks,
> 
> todd
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Jay, 

Other than the two items mentions, lower BTU's and altitude derate, I know of 
no other reason for LP to have lower output. If it is in the budget, I always 
oversize a generator after derating so it does not operate above 70% load. I do 
this for longer engine life as I imagine a fully loaded engine will have a much 
shorter life. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Jan 30, 2013, at 2:38 PM, Jay Peltz wrote:

Hi guys 
Right on all accounts but I continue to hear that propane/nat gas is further 
derated than the liquid fuels. 
Or is this just bad info?

Thx

Jay

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 30, 2013, at 12:44 PM, "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems" 
 wrote:

> Jay, 
> 
> In addition to what Dan has said, 1 gallon of propane has about 35% less 
> BTU's compared to 1 gallon of gasoline. So the propane derating must be added 
> to the altitude derate to determine generator output.
> 
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 30, 2013, at 1:32 PM, Dan Fink wrote:
> 
> Jay;
> The "standard" seems to be 2-3% derate for every 1000 feet above sea level 
> for gasoline, diesel or LP gas generators, and supposedly more like 5% for 
> natural gas. (in general we don't work in areas that have natural gas 
> service, we only do off-grid). So the propane de-rate for altitude is no 
> worse than the diesel or gasoline de-rate, it's just added on top of it. In 
> practice, we are not seeing that big a hit, but it is hard to really judge. 
> Also, air-cooled generators don't cool as well at high altitudes and tend to 
> run hot.
> 
> A fairly common troubleshooting call we've seen in the past is clients who 
> have purchased cheap portable generators from Home Depot, Harbor Freight etc. 
> and then find that they can't tune them for anything above 6000 feet -- the 
> carb adjustment screws don't go that far, and the fine print in the warranty 
> actually says 6000 ft max. Ouch! They run so poorly that very few modern 
> inverter/chargers will even look at their input. I've been a local 
> firefighter for 14 years now, even worse problem with chainsaws (2-stroke). 
> We've learned how to bust out the plastic "EPA stops" on the carb adjust 
> screws, with the of course unofficial instructions to throw the saw into the 
> fire if the EPA shows up..
> 
> Never had the slightest high-altitude issues with the Honda x000i series 
> running OK, and I have no idea why. The de-rate factor is certainly still 
> there, but no issues idling or running, no matter what the draw. My Honda 
> 3000i issues are from a different cause I think; there is an extensive thread 
> on that in the archives here that I started in July 2011 I think.
> 
> DAN FINK
> 
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:
> Hi Dan
> 
> So true. But never had it explained to me why propane is different than 
> gasoline or diesel at altitude. 
> 
> Thx
> 
> Jay
> Peltz power
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jan 30, 2013, at 11:42 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
> 
>> And because of our Colorado location here, we are always dealing with 
>> altitude de-rate factors. We are usually installing at 7000 - 1 feet 
>> elevation, which is a big hit. Propane de-rates gennys even further.
>> -- 
>> Dan Fink,
>> Executive Director;
>> Otherpower
>> Buckville Energy Consulting
>> Buckville Publications LLC
>> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
>> 970.672.4342 (voicemail)
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:
>> > Hi all
>> 
>> I've found through hard experience that all generators except diesels seem 
>> to be smaller than name plate rating.
>> 
>> And while the charging maybe reduced if I am conservative in telling the 
>> inverter how large the genny is I rarely get the genny to trip its breaker.
>> 
>> 
>> Jay
>> 
>> Peltz power
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> ___
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> 
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> -- 
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.

Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[penobscotsolar]

   We recommend propane to all our clients in New England simply because
in the winter a propane gennie starts without the need for a block
heater or special diesel storage. Reliability is preferred over price
when it comes to needing charging after a week of cloudy, snowy
weather. Many of my clients also point out that no matter how careful
they are, the storage area for the gennie eventually smells like
diesel.
   In the Caribbean, where the use of a generator is much less than here
in Maine, we recommend propane because it is already available in the
home. Logistics on a lot of the small family islands where we do off
grid work make running for diesel just another thing to do.
   From an environmental standpoint I would always recommend propane over
diesel because of spillage and diesel fumes. I believe propane is much
cleaner burning, although likely the CO2 is probably similar.
Just my .2

Daryl


> Hi guys
> Right on all accounts but I continue to hear that propane/nat gas is
> further derated than the liquid fuels.
> Or is this just bad info?
>
> Thx
>
> Jay
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 30, 2013, at 12:44 PM, "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power
> Systems"  wrote:
>
>> Jay,
>>
>> In addition to what Dan has said, 1 gallon of propane has about 35% less
>> BTU's compared to 1 gallon of gasoline. So the propane derating must be
>> added to the altitude derate to determine generator output.
>>
>>
>> Larry Crutcher
>> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 30, 2013, at 1:32 PM, Dan Fink wrote:
>>
>> Jay;
>> The "standard" seems to be 2-3% derate for every 1000 feet above sea
>> level for gasoline, diesel or LP gas generators, and supposedly more
>> like 5% for natural gas. (in general we don't work in areas that have
>> natural gas service, we only do off-grid). So the propane de-rate for
>> altitude is no worse than the diesel or gasoline de-rate, it's just
>> added on top of it. In practice, we are not seeing that big a hit, but
>> it is hard to really judge. Also, air-cooled generators don't cool as
>> well at high altitudes and tend to run hot.
>>
>> A fairly common troubleshooting call we've seen in the past is clients
>> who have purchased cheap portable generators from Home Depot, Harbor
>> Freight etc. and then find that they can't tune them for anything above
>> 6000 feet -- the carb adjustment screws don't go that far, and the fine
>> print in the warranty actually says 6000 ft max. Ouch! They run so
>> poorly that very few modern inverter/chargers will even look at their
>> input. I've been a local firefighter for 14 years now, even worse
>> problem with chainsaws (2-stroke). We've learned how to bust out the
>> plastic "EPA stops" on the carb adjust screws, with the of course
>> unofficial instructions to throw the saw into the fire if the EPA shows
>> up..
>>
>> Never had the slightest high-altitude issues with the Honda x000i series
>> running OK, and I have no idea why. The de-rate factor is certainly
>> still there, but no issues idling or running, no matter what the draw.
>> My Honda 3000i issues are from a different cause I think; there is an
>> extensive thread on that in the archives here that I started in July
>> 2011 I think.
>>
>> DAN FINK
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:
>>> Hi Dan
>>>
>>> So true. But never had it explained to me why propane is different than
>>> gasoline or diesel at altitude.
>>>
>>> Thx
>>>
>>> Jay
>>> Peltz power
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Jan 30, 2013, at 11:42 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
>>>
 And because of our Colorado location here, we are always dealing with
 altitude de-rate factors. We are usually installing at 7000 - 1
 feet elevation, which is a big hit. Propane de-rates gennys even
 further.
 --
 Dan Fink,
 Executive Director;
 Otherpower
 Buckville Energy Consulting
 Buckville Publications LLC
 NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
 970.672.4342 (voicemail)


 On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:
> > Hi all
>
> I've found through hard experience that all generators except diesels
> seem to be smaller than name plate rating.
>
> And while the charging maybe reduced if I am conservative in telling
> the inverter how large the genny is I rarely get the genny to trip
> its breaker.
>
>
> Jay
>
> Peltz power



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>>> __

Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Jay Peltz]

Hi guys 
Right on all accounts but I continue to hear that propane/nat gas is further 
derated than the liquid fuels. 
Or is this just bad info?

Thx

Jay

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 30, 2013, at 12:44 PM, "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems" 
 wrote:

> Jay, 
> 
> In addition to what Dan has said, 1 gallon of propane has about 35% less 
> BTU's compared to 1 gallon of gasoline. So the propane derating must be added 
> to the altitude derate to determine generator output.
> 
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 30, 2013, at 1:32 PM, Dan Fink wrote:
> 
> Jay;
> The "standard" seems to be 2-3% derate for every 1000 feet above sea level 
> for gasoline, diesel or LP gas generators, and supposedly more like 5% for 
> natural gas. (in general we don't work in areas that have natural gas 
> service, we only do off-grid). So the propane de-rate for altitude is no 
> worse than the diesel or gasoline de-rate, it's just added on top of it. In 
> practice, we are not seeing that big a hit, but it is hard to really judge. 
> Also, air-cooled generators don't cool as well at high altitudes and tend to 
> run hot.
> 
> A fairly common troubleshooting call we've seen in the past is clients who 
> have purchased cheap portable generators from Home Depot, Harbor Freight etc. 
> and then find that they can't tune them for anything above 6000 feet -- the 
> carb adjustment screws don't go that far, and the fine print in the warranty 
> actually says 6000 ft max. Ouch! They run so poorly that very few modern 
> inverter/chargers will even look at their input. I've been a local 
> firefighter for 14 years now, even worse problem with chainsaws (2-stroke). 
> We've learned how to bust out the plastic "EPA stops" on the carb adjust 
> screws, with the of course unofficial instructions to throw the saw into the 
> fire if the EPA shows up..
> 
> Never had the slightest high-altitude issues with the Honda x000i series 
> running OK, and I have no idea why. The de-rate factor is certainly still 
> there, but no issues idling or running, no matter what the draw. My Honda 
> 3000i issues are from a different cause I think; there is an extensive thread 
> on that in the archives here that I started in July 2011 I think.
> 
> DAN FINK
> 
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:
>> Hi Dan
>> 
>> So true. But never had it explained to me why propane is different than 
>> gasoline or diesel at altitude. 
>> 
>> Thx
>> 
>> Jay
>> Peltz power
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Jan 30, 2013, at 11:42 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
>> 
>>> And because of our Colorado location here, we are always dealing with 
>>> altitude de-rate factors. We are usually installing at 7000 - 1 feet 
>>> elevation, which is a big hit. Propane de-rates gennys even further.
>>> -- 
>>> Dan Fink,
>>> Executive Director;
>>> Otherpower
>>> Buckville Energy Consulting
>>> Buckville Publications LLC
>>> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
>>> 970.672.4342 (voicemail)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:
 > Hi all
 
 I've found through hard experience that all generators except diesels seem 
 to be smaller than name plate rating.
 
 And while the charging maybe reduced if I am conservative in telling the 
 inverter how large the genny is I rarely get the genny to trip its breaker.
 
 
 Jay
 
 Peltz power
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> ___
>>> 
>>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>> 
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>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>> 
>>> Check out participant bios:
>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>> 
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>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>> 
>> Check out participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342 (voicemail)
> 
>  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Jay, 

In addition to what Dan has said, 1 gallon of propane has about 35% less BTU's 
compared to 1 gallon of gasoline. So the propane derating must be added to the 
altitude derate to determine generator output.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Jan 30, 2013, at 1:32 PM, Dan Fink wrote:

Jay;
The "standard" seems to be 2-3% derate for every 1000 feet above sea level for 
gasoline, diesel or LP gas generators, and supposedly more like 5% for natural 
gas. (in general we don't work in areas that have natural gas service, we only 
do off-grid). So the propane de-rate for altitude is no worse than the diesel 
or gasoline de-rate, it's just added on top of it. In practice, we are not 
seeing that big a hit, but it is hard to really judge. Also, air-cooled 
generators don't cool as well at high altitudes and tend to run hot.

A fairly common troubleshooting call we've seen in the past is clients who have 
purchased cheap portable generators from Home Depot, Harbor Freight etc. and 
then find that they can't tune them for anything above 6000 feet -- the carb 
adjustment screws don't go that far, and the fine print in the warranty 
actually says 6000 ft max. Ouch! They run so poorly that very few modern 
inverter/chargers will even look at their input. I've been a local firefighter 
for 14 years now, even worse problem with chainsaws (2-stroke). We've learned 
how to bust out the plastic "EPA stops" on the carb adjust screws, with the of 
course unofficial instructions to throw the saw into the fire if the EPA shows 
up..

Never had the slightest high-altitude issues with the Honda x000i series 
running OK, and I have no idea why. The de-rate factor is certainly still 
there, but no issues idling or running, no matter what the draw. My Honda 3000i 
issues are from a different cause I think; there is an extensive thread on that 
in the archives here that I started in July 2011 I think.

DAN FINK

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:
Hi Dan

So true. But never had it explained to me why propane is different than 
gasoline or diesel at altitude. 

Thx

Jay
Peltz power

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 30, 2013, at 11:42 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:

> And because of our Colorado location here, we are always dealing with 
> altitude de-rate factors. We are usually installing at 7000 - 1 feet 
> elevation, which is a big hit. Propane de-rates gennys even further.
> -- 
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342 (voicemail)
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:
> > Hi all
> 
> I've found through hard experience that all generators except diesels seem to 
> be smaller than name plate rating.
> 
> And while the charging maybe reduced if I am conservative in telling the 
> inverter how large the genny is I rarely get the genny to trip its breaker.
> 
> 
> Jay
> 
> Peltz power
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Dan Fink]

Jay;
The "standard" seems to be 2-3% derate for every 1000 feet above sea level
for gasoline, diesel or LP gas generators, and supposedly more like 5% for
natural gas. (in general we don't work in areas that have natural gas
service, we only do off-grid). So the propane de-rate for altitude is no
worse than the diesel or gasoline de-rate, it's just added on top of it. In
practice, we are not seeing that big a hit, but it is hard to really
judge. Also, air-cooled generators don't cool as well at high altitudes and
tend to run hot.

A fairly common troubleshooting call we've seen in the past is clients who
have purchased cheap portable generators from Home Depot, Harbor Freight
etc. and then find that they can't tune them for anything above 6000 feet
-- the carb adjustment screws don't go that far, and the fine print in the
warranty actually says 6000 ft max. Ouch! They run so poorly that very few
modern inverter/chargers will even look at their input. I've been a local
firefighter for 14 years now, even worse problem with chainsaws (2-stroke).
We've learned how to bust out the plastic "EPA stops" on the carb adjust
screws, with the of course unofficial instructions to throw the saw into
the fire if the EPA shows up..

Never had the slightest high-altitude issues with the Honda x000i series
running OK, and I have no idea why. The de-rate factor is certainly still
there, but no issues idling or running, no matter what the draw. My Honda
3000i issues are from a different cause I think; there is an extensive
thread on that in the archives here that I started in July 2011 I think.

DAN FINK

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:

> Hi Dan
>
> So true. But never had it explained to me why propane is different than
> gasoline or diesel at altitude.
>
> Thx
>
> Jay
> Peltz power
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 30, 2013, at 11:42 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
>
> And because of our Colorado location here, we are always dealing with
> altitude de-rate factors. We are usually installing at 7000 - 1 feet
> elevation, which is a big hit. Propane de-rates gennys even further.
> --
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342 (voicemail)
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:
>
>> > Hi all
>>
>> I've found through hard experience that all generators except diesels
>> seem to be smaller than name plate rating.
>>
>> And while the charging maybe reduced if I am conservative in telling the
>> inverter how large the genny is I rarely get the genny to trip its breaker.
>>
>>
>> Jay
>>
>> Peltz power
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
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970.672.4342 (voicemail)
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Kevin Pegg]

Hi Todd, 
 
When recommending generators to clients I make sure they understand operating 
costs to look at it full picture. Some care, some don't. But the reality is if 
the gen will get significant run time (100's or 1,000's of hrs) a year then 
operational fuel costs becomes much more significant than the capital cost of 
the engine. It does depend on your local costs for fuel, but propane engines in 
my experience are at least 2x the cost to run compared to diesel. Also good to 
check if there is a local service place in case issues with propane. Diesel 
mechanics are plentiful, propane not so much. 
 
The Onan RS12,000 unit, the old style one was a proven performer. I have dozens 
in the field with up to 8,000 hrs on some units. That unit was abandoned and 
replaced with a new style I have not used. 
 
I echo what most say re: Generac, but the off-grid model does appear to be 
about the best option available today. 
 
Kohler makes really nice units too, high end with high end price. 
 
Also remember to break that engine in according to the manual!! Critical. Not 
doing that properly can = a oil burner. I would set them up with a load bank 
and break it in at the shop before installing. 
 
Kevin Pegg
Industrial / Commercial sales
EA Energy Alternatives Ltd.
Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of 
toddc...@finestplanet.com
Sent: January 29, 2013 7:40 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions





wrenches,




i am working on a design for an off grid camp. they need a new generator as the 
one they have is a total pos. 

i am interested in suggestions for a commercial grade, 10 to 15 kW propane 
fueled unit. are kohler and onan still the best thing going or am i living in 
the past?

thanks,




todd




Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. 






Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Ray,
  Everything has changed. The Kohler 6.5RMY and the Onan 6.5
  Commercial were wonderful units, but also both flathead twins,
  eventually discontinued for efficiency and emissions reasons, as I
  came to understand. Also, the American residential market was (and
  remains) almost exclusively about home standby, not off grid, and
  the major manufacturers went in that direction. Home standby is a
  competitive market, and generators aren't expected to run for many
  hours over their useful life, so internals can be cheapened and
  features to make them more like a home appliance are added. Many
  of us have customer horror stories about home standby units used
  off grid.
  
  I have written favorably about the Generac EcoGen here and in Home
  Power, as it's pretty much currently the only under-10K unit
  designed for off grid use. I have now had two at my home - we had
  a fire in May that took out an outbuilding and the gennie, and I
  replaced it with the same model, because it had performed well and
  there was nothing else to compete with it. Always starts, minimal
  maintenance, exceeds its rated output on occasion, doesn't require
  a separate enclosure, and is sealed against mice. Oh, and very
  quiet. So far the only disadvantage is the need for either an AC
  feed for the 8W phantom load to keep the controller awake, but a
  PV module and small controller on the starting battery will handle
  that one of these days. It's not just one of their standard units
  with different bells and whistles, but has hardened valves, lower
  (2,500) rpm, longer maintenance intervals, and other reliability
  features.
  
  I know all about Generac's otherwise-poor reputation, and am
  willing to stick my neck out about this model, as I think it's the
  best we currently have in this size range. My understanding is
  that the Propane Reliability Council (or some similar
  organizational name) was involved with sponsoring development of
  an LP gennie tough enough to handle off grid demands. They first
  approached Kohler, who turned them down, and then worked with
  Generac (all this is hearsay; don't quote me on it).
  Allan
  
  


Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com



 
  On 1/30/2013 10:41 AM, Ray Walters wrote:


  
  Hi Randy and all;

I definitely like the water cooled 1800 rpm machines too, but
for regular off grid homes, they just are way out of the
budget.  We jumped on the inverter generator band wagon for a
while, but had the same load issues Allan described.  (Microwave
kicks the breaker, and you're running the genny for hours for
nothing)  Many customers have turned to the contractor portables
with equally disappointing results, but often they already have
the genny, and we just provide an inlet box and cord.  
The Generac looks like a good idea, I wish Onan or Kohler would
build one. Kohler used to make a 6.5 Kw that fit the one
inverter household fairly well.

Ray Walters

THeOn 1/30/2013 8:55 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power
Systems wrote:
  
  Randy, 


I concur, the Cummins/Onan generators are built well and
  are reliable. They provide a 1 year, 1000 hour warranty for
  off grid use when a RE system is installed for primary power. 


We install lots of Magnum Energy inverters with AGS modules
  in RV's. What sold me on the Onan's is having seen many RV
  generators (3600, 2880 and 2400 RPM), some with several
  thousand hours, still operating with tight frequency and
  voltage control, no leaks, easy starting, etc.

  
  
  
  
  

  
Larry Crutcher
  Starlight Solar Power Systems

  



  

  
 
  
  
On Jan 30, 201

Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Jay Peltz]

Hi Dan

So true. But never had it explained to me why propane is different than 
gasoline or diesel at altitude. 

Thx

Jay
Peltz power

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 30, 2013, at 11:42 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:

> And because of our Colorado location here, we are always dealing with 
> altitude de-rate factors. We are usually installing at 7000 - 1 feet 
> elevation, which is a big hit. Propane de-rates gennys even further.
> -- 
> Dan Fink,
> Executive Director;
> Otherpower
> Buckville Energy Consulting
> Buckville Publications LLC
> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
> 970.672.4342 (voicemail)
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:
>> > Hi all
>> 
>> I've found through hard experience that all generators except diesels seem 
>> to be smaller than name plate rating.
>> 
>> And while the charging maybe reduced if I am conservative in telling the 
>> inverter how large the genny is I rarely get the genny to trip its breaker.
>> 
>> 
>> Jay
>> 
>> Peltz power
> 
> 
>  
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Dan Fink]

And because of our Colorado location here, we are always dealing with
altitude de-rate factors. We are usually installing at 7000 - 1 feet
elevation, which is a big hit. Propane de-rates gennys even further.
-- 
Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342 (voicemail)


On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:

> > Hi all
>
> I've found through hard experience that all generators except diesels seem
> to be smaller than name plate rating.
>
> And while the charging maybe reduced if I am conservative in telling the
> inverter how large the genny is I rarely get the genny to trip its breaker.
>
>
> Jay
>
> Peltz power
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Jay Peltz]

> Hi all

I've found through hard experience that all generators except diesels seem to 
be smaller than name plate rating. 

And while the charging maybe reduced if I am conservative in telling the 
inverter how large the genny is I rarely get the genny to trip its breaker. 


Jay

Peltz power



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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[penobscotsolar]

Ray,
   With over 25 years of installing off grid PV systems I feel like
Generac is the only company I've seen who has looked at the needs
(cost,reliability, stable output, auto start, 120 VAC output) of the
small to medium size off grid PV system and designed an affordable and
so far seemingly reliable alternative to the "Big Two".  For most
customers, an extra $3700 or so for their generator isn't too much
sticker shock..

Daryl



> Hi Randy and all;
>
> I definitely like the water cooled 1800 rpm machines too, but for
> regular off grid homes, they just are way out of the budget.  We jumped
> on the inverter generator band wagon for a while, but had the same load
> issues Allan described.  (Microwave kicks the breaker, and you're
> running the genny for hours for nothing)  Many customers have turned to
> the contractor portables with equally disappointing results, but often
> they already have the genny, and we just provide an inlet box and cord.
> The Generac looks like a good idea, I wish Onan or Kohler would build
> one. Kohler used to make a 6.5 Kw that fit the one inverter household
> fairly well.
>
> Ray Walters
>
> THeOn 1/30/2013 8:55 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems
> wrote:
>> Randy,
>>
>> I concur, the Cummins/Onan generators are built well and are reliable.
>> They provide a 1 year, 1000 hour warranty for off grid use when a RE
>> system is installed for primary power.
>>
>> We install lots of Magnum Energy inverters with AGS modules in
>> RV's. What sold me on the Onan's is having seen many RV generators
>> (3600, 2880 and 2400 RPM), some with several thousand hours, still
>> operating with tight frequency and voltage control, no leaks, easy
>> starting, etc.
>>
>> Larry Crutcher
>> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 30, 2013, at 7:52 AM, Randy Brooks wrote:
>>
>> Todd,
>>
>> We don't sell or install generators, but the only one I recommend for
>> permanent installations is the Cummins/Onan, 1,800 rpm, propane
>> fueled.  All others have failed early.
>>
>> Good luck,
>>
>> Randy Brooks
>> Brooks Solar, Inc.
>> */Solar Power for People/*
>> 140 Columbia View
>> Chelan, WA98816
>> 509-682-9646
>> ra...@brookssolar.com 
>> www.BrooksSolar.com 
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Ray Walters]

Hi Randy and all;

I definitely like the water cooled 1800 rpm machines too, but for 
regular off grid homes, they just are way out of the budget.  We jumped 
on the inverter generator band wagon for a while, but had the same load 
issues Allan described.  (Microwave kicks the breaker, and you're 
running the genny for hours for nothing)  Many customers have turned to 
the contractor portables with equally disappointing results, but often 
they already have the genny, and we just provide an inlet box and cord.
The Generac looks like a good idea, I wish Onan or Kohler would build 
one. Kohler used to make a 6.5 Kw that fit the one inverter household 
fairly well.


Ray Walters

THeOn 1/30/2013 8:55 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
wrote:

Randy,

I concur, the Cummins/Onan generators are built well and are reliable. 
They provide a 1 year, 1000 hour warranty for off grid use when a RE 
system is installed for primary power.


We install lots of Magnum Energy inverters with AGS modules in 
RV's. What sold me on the Onan's is having seen many RV generators 
(3600, 2880 and 2400 RPM), some with several thousand hours, still 
operating with tight frequency and voltage control, no leaks, easy 
starting, etc.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Jan 30, 2013, at 7:52 AM, Randy Brooks wrote:

Todd,

We don't sell or install generators, but the only one I recommend for 
permanent installations is the Cummins/Onan, 1,800 rpm, propane 
fueled.  All others have failed early.


Good luck,

Randy Brooks
Brooks Solar, Inc.
*/Solar Power for People/*
140 Columbia View
Chelan, WA98816
509-682-9646
ra...@brookssolar.com 
www.BrooksSolar.com 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Randy, 

I concur, the Cummins/Onan generators are built well and are reliable. They 
provide a 1 year, 1000 hour warranty for off grid use when a RE system is 
installed for primary power. 

We install lots of Magnum Energy inverters with AGS modules in RV's. What sold 
me on the Onan's is having seen many RV generators (3600, 2880 and 2400 RPM), 
some with several thousand hours, still operating with tight frequency and 
voltage control, no leaks, easy starting, etc.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Jan 30, 2013, at 7:52 AM, Randy Brooks wrote:

Todd,

We don't sell or install generators, but the only one I recommend for permanent 
installations is the Cummins/Onan, 1,800 rpm, propane fueled.  All others have 
failed early.

Good luck,

Randy Brooks
Brooks Solar, Inc.
Solar Power for People
140 Columbia View
Chelan, WA  98816
509-682-9646
ra...@brookssolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Randy Brooks]

Todd,

We don't sell or install generators, but the only one I recommend for permanent 
installations is the Cummins/Onan, 1,800 rpm, propane fueled.  All others have 
failed early.

Good luck,

Randy Brooks
Brooks Solar, Inc.
Solar Power for People
140 Columbia View
Chelan, WA  98816
509-682-9646
ra...@brookssolar.com
www.BrooksSolar.com

On Jan 29, 2013, at 7:39 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:

> wrenches,
> 
> i am working on a design for an off grid camp. they need a new generator as 
> the one they have is a total pos.
> i am interested in suggestions for a commercial grade, 10 to 15 kW propane 
> fueled unit. are kohler and onan still the best thing going or am i living in 
> the past?
> thanks,
> 
> todd
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Rich Nicol]

While in the past not being a fan of Generac, we've had the same positive
experiences thus far with the Eco Gen. The two wire start is simple and
clear. It comes set up for 120v. The kit initially supplied for the 240v
conversion was incomplete and the directions made absolutely no sense. I
believe the directions for the 240v conversion have now been revised. While
we don't sell generators either we do complete the connection to our systems
and program the autostart etc. Thus far the two Eco Gen's connected to our
systems have run well. One of which has 800 hours on it with no issues thus
far.
Thanks
Rich

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
penobscotso...@midmaine.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 8:08 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

Ray,
   We don't install generators but have installed several (4) systems where
the customer has ordered and had installed Generac's Eco-Gen, if that is the
model you're referring to. In the past I would NEVER recommend Generac. The
gen installer had to install the two wire gen start option and in one case
convert the system for 120 output. At least two have been in use for more
than a year and a half with no tuneup and no complaints from the client. You
know that we are the first to be blamed when the gen goes out of voltage or
freq.  It must be the fault of the solar system...One of the clients is
on Cat Island in the Bahamas, the  others are in Maine. I have been
recommending them to clients with smaller load demands/systems these days.
While they are not Onan or Kohler, they seem to me to be made especially for
off grid solar systems,reasonably priced and until I see problems with them
I will continue to recommend them when they fit the bill.

Daryl DeJoy
NABCEP Certified PV installer
PenobscotSolar Design



> I just found Generac's Off grid model 6 Kw.  I know I've heard nothing 
> but $%& about Generac, but this unit appears to actually be designed 
> specifically for off grid, and has a special oil cooling system and 
> runs at 2600 rpm.  Anybody dare try one?
>
> Ray Walters
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[penobscotsolar]

Ray,
   We don't install generators but have installed several (4) systems
where the customer has ordered and had installed Generac's Eco-Gen, if
that is the model you're referring to. In the past I would NEVER
recommend Generac. The gen installer had to install the two wire gen
start option and in one case convert the system for 120 output. At
least two have been in use for more than a year and a half with no
tuneup and no complaints from the client. You know that we are the
first to be blamed when the gen goes out of voltage or freq.  It must
be the fault of the solar system...One of the clients is on Cat
Island in the Bahamas, the  others are in Maine. I have been
recommending them to clients with smaller load demands/systems these
days. While they are not Onan or Kohler, they seem to me to be made
especially for off grid solar systems,reasonably priced and until I see
problems with them I will continue to recommend them when they fit the
bill.

Daryl DeJoy
NABCEP Certified PV installer
PenobscotSolar Design



> I just found Generac's Off grid model 6 Kw.  I know I've heard nothing
> but $%& about Generac, but this unit appears to actually be designed
> specifically for off grid, and has a special oil cooling system and
> runs at 2600 rpm.  Anybody dare try one?
>
> Ray Walters
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
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> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>


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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[William Miller]

Ray:

We hooked one up, but I spent little time with it.  It was in a very 
plastic casing and it was somewhat hard to get to the connection box.  It 
required some kind of programming for the two wire start to 
work.  Fortunately the vendor's installer was on site so he pressed the 
buttons.  It took him 45 minutes and actually reading the book to figure it 
out.


Again, a very limited exposure to the machine, but it's all I got.

William


At 10:54 PM 1/29/2013, you wrote:
I just found Generac's Off grid model 6 Kw.  I know I've heard nothing but 
$%& about Generac, but this unit appears to actually be designed 
specifically for off grid, and has a special oil cooling system and

runs at 2600 rpm.  Anybody dare try one?

Ray Walters
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.455 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/5564 - Release Date: 01/28/13 
19:59:00


Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985

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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Ray Walters]

I just found Generac's Off grid model 6 Kw.  I know I've heard nothing 
but $%& about Generac, but this unit appears to actually be designed 
specifically for off grid, and has a special oil cooling system and  
runs at 2600 rpm.  Anybody dare try one?


Ray Walters
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Ray Walters]

Those look interesting, especially the 20 Kw unit that is 1800 rpm.  
How's auto start, is it two wire?
Does it have a no load draw for its electronics like the other newer 
standby generators?

And finally does the warranty still apply for off grid use?

Thanks,

Ray Walters


What On 1/29/2013 9:22 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez- All Solar Inc. wrote:

Check out Gillette Generators
Made in Indiana
Jeremy
All Solar
Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand!

-Original Message-
From: toddc...@finestplanet.com
Sender: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgDate: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:39:43
To: RE-wrenches
Reply-To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

[Jeremy Rodriguez- All Solar Inc.]

Check out Gillette Generators
Made in Indiana
Jeremy
All Solar
Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand!

-Original Message-
From: toddc...@finestplanet.com
Sender: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgDate: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 
19:39:43 
To: RE-wrenches
Reply-To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator suggestions

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