Re: [recoznet2] Redskins? Blackskins? Niggers?
Ian, Noel Pearson was on a similar track: it is no use trying to induce Aboriginal Peoples health with an imposed European system. As Noel has said on several occasions '... my people are not useless. They can think and work things out.' During my stay in the Territory I so often saw this and tried in my own small way to encourage this attitude. As I was at the time working for a Government Dept. this procedure was often criticised. I was once criticised for not spending enough money. This was a time when on the outstations I was helping the Peoples to build houses out of bashed down ant hills, bark and saplings. Primitive? Degrading? To us maybe but those people loved them: if someone died in a house it could be deserted or burned; if they wished to move on they could; if they were left they did not become a ruin they became compost. I was roundly criticised for these houses but not by those that lived in them. When the People begin to live much more sedentary lives their needs change as do the homes they live in but they are still idiosyncratic as would be expected. The power for change cannot come from above Ian. It can only come from within and with resources to do it with. Considering health. My firm belief is that the most constructive way to overcome the terrible health statistics is to restore the People's connection to the land. Think of the diseases ravaging Aboriginal Peoples: diabetes, heart conditions, obesity, and cancer. The illnesses are all induced by some form of addictive behaviour: overeating, alcoholism, smoking and other drug taking of various types. All addictive behaviours are, in my experience, induced by an inability to cope with life. As an alcoholic my aim when drinking was to get sober - that is normal. Despite forty years of trying I never did succeed. Again the lack of governmental health authorities not supplying resources and training to people who need it...but keeping it in and under academic control. the People. And Lance, a large part of this will be how we use words. We are NOT allowed to use words as we like. If I was to influentially and publicly name Kennett a social misfit he would have me in Court for defamation so quick my head would spin. And, is all Parliamentary Privilege used in a constructive way? I think not. Does an aboriginal person or a white person for that matter have the ability to take one to court for defaming another, no they dont its all scare tactics really. I've been threatened and intimidated by someone and yet Im told in no uncertain terms that unless they hit you or you have a witness to extreme harrasment and even then it must be physical then you will not have chance. Im sure Kennet gets catsigated by everyone in society and these things can be quite defamatory remarks but unless your in power over another it means absolutely nothing. Im sorry I see holes everywhere in some of these arguments. Must be that chip on my shoulder :) Regards, Lance. --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
Re: [recoznet2] Redskins? Blacksins? Niggers?
Suzanne I'd like you to explain this comment please if you would if u are not oppositional, then u would rejoyce in 'other' groups also finding their voices on predator 'issues' -?? Are you telling me that as males we are all predators ? eg. women, children, the land, survival, pollution, violence, reconciliation, sovereignty etc - concerns of a community of peoples - yr focus is on the male form/being rather than it seems on what individual males do or say - Original Message - From: webweave [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [recoznet2] Redskins? Blacksins? Niggers? political correctness - pc - is the platform you yourself are using to assert the male voice in this space many have gone before u, who laid the 'floorboards' that u now stand on, to assert yourself or your group identity and rights for legitimated space some would call u separatist because u will 'hear' of nothing but maleness, itself non pc on the pc circuit if u are not oppositional, then u would rejoyce in 'other' groups also finding their voices on predator 'issues' - eg. women, children, the land, survival, pollution, violence, reconciliation, sovereignty etc - concerns of a community of peoples - yr focus is on the male form/being rather than it seems on what individual males do or say to me yr 'group' is just one thread that contributes or not, to the whole fabric in humanhood susanne --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/ --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
Re: [recoznet2] Tent Embassy
When I received the notices re the meetings Susanne listed, I also received two documents a Press release "Aboriginal Tent Embassy under attack: Embassy representatives on a national speaking tour" and "Land Rights or else! a brief history of the Aboriginal Tent Embassy" The contacts quoted are Diane Fieldes 02 9328 0020 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Isabell Coe 02 9568 5643 Ray Swan (in Canberra) 02 6295 0493 or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lynn Pollack 9/363 Edgecliff Road, Edgecliff. NSW. 2027. Australia Tel/Fax 61293282060 [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
Re: [recoznet2] Redskins? Blackskins? Niggers?
Lance, Maybe if you retained the goal posts in the same place for a while you and I may learn something. You have some good ideas as I hope I have but neither of us can conduct a meaningful discussion if what we are talking about is fluid, thus continually moving. Regards, ___ Ian J. Henderson Murdoch University 24 Harfleur Place Humanities Hamilton Hill Murdoch, 6150. Western Australia, 6163 Tel and Fax: (08) 94183972 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
Re: [recoznet2] language and culture
Yes Tim, I and many other have chips on our shoulders asyou put its called exclusion,denigration intimidation and denial of basic rights of respect and selfworth. People use words to dominate others plain and simple. Rather than allow for freedom of expression we are told thisis the way we must express ourselves. I take no offence at what you say Tim. By politicalcorrectedness I am saying those people in dominat positions that dont speak in plain common sense terms that relate to everyone and not just the educated few in societywho understand them. We keep talking aboutculture as thoughitsimportance is above evbreything else except thatmost australians don't have any culture at all thats the issue. Isculture more importantthan real here and now issues suchas what I have previouslyspoken about , third world housing, diabetes, men in rural and aborginal communities, families in brokenhomes, 1 in 5 australians with mentalhealthissues, overcharging privatising beaurocrats, need I go on. Yes I have chip on my shoulder, you should to regards,Lance.
Re: [recoznet2] Redskins? Blacksins? Niggers?
At 17:16 2/08/99 +1000, you wrote: Suzanne I'd like you to explain this comment please if you would if u are not oppositional, then u would rejoyce in 'other' groups also finding their voices on predator 'issues' -?? Are you telling me that as males we are all predators ? communication is difficult as everyone is on their circuit, thanks for the opportunity to explain what i must have poorly written or expressed i meant - i can relate to yr gendered ie men only space as i respect the women and children only space of reclaim the night annual march - both agree so far - single gender spaces are to be frequently found in mainstream without looking too hard, with your group being the most dominant - a lot of other people must agree that it is ok for females to organise amongst themselves and for males to do the same judging by the number of groups that exclude one or the other that exist right now - no-one has told me why this is not ok, yet many each year object to the march because men are not 'in' it - from a female point of view - men are in jst about everything else tho i walk in other spaces also, not just this single gender space these are not based on exclusively women's or men's business but on corroboree business - the 'all of us stuff' like land destruction, national health, incarceration as social control, language dessimation, trade manipulation, genocide ... this makes me the saddest/maddest of all and it is predator behaviour to me - crimes of the body - physical and social and spiritual in short - anyone who preys on humanity in ways that with knowledge, diminishes ANY individual's lived experience, is committing a crime of the body to me - and is a predator and it must stop - no matter who is doing it - women, children, men meaning governments, business ... circuits of power that exploit the women, men and kids of our communities to the max - black or grey or white or pink or rainbow or ... eg true story a medical doctor, health minister and minister for aboriginal affairs - 'leader' having gained the knowledge of all three 'offices' -of the relationship between needles and the spread of deadly diseases -of the racial composition of his 'target' community did remove, without notice to the community, 'the' needle exchange from a high drug traffic area predator behaviour to me and i am shamed that he is still holding public office and has not been punished for his crime of genocide i cannot only protest on behalf of women who suffer genocidal practices, as its victims are all women and men and children ie the whole mob as well as all mobs - 'men's business doesn't make much sense to me in this context as we haven't got our acts together in gendered arenas to say that all women or men are represented or even visible in our speak - otherwise 'we' would have eliminated violence from our lives, in all its forms, surely :) i'm tired, so if anything needs further exchange let me know cheers susanne --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
[recoznet2] Tent Embassy exhibition
There will also be an exhibition of art and artefacts associated with the Tent Embassy Bondi Pavilion 7/8 August --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
Re: [recoznet2] Explanation of Predator.
Thankyou so much for your explanation and comment Suzanne I whole heartedly agree with you. I think even though we are different genders have similar feelings (if Imnotmistaken) Regards, Lance. --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
Re: [recoznet2] Males
Lance Your experience of the critique of masculinity is not uncommon. Many men feel as if they have no role in society any more and that feminism, amongst other critiques are to blame. When men complain about how they are worse off than women, that they have it bad, that they are alway the brunt of unfair criticism it certainly tells us something. One thing, I believe is that it is hard to accept change. The men's movement, from my experience remains a strongly misogynist movement of men who feel this way. Yes, they may be experiencing grief, but it is a grief of dislocation, of being stuck somewhere between being the traditional male and the expectations of what it means to be a man today. It is, from my perspective, ridiculous to think that men (as a group) are disadvantaged. You blame the system, and whether you believe it or not, this is a system created in the image of man as an affirmation of the cultural ideals of masculinity (and women are part of this - Maggie Thatcher was called the Iron Lady) To talk about the problems of 'dominant' masculinity is not to be mistaken for calling all men bastards, but to recognise that there is a set of social relations (of which men have greater access to) that are historically and culturally based upon control and domination. I've felt the competitive, adversarial, controlling hand of masculinity all my life, as a man, growing up in a western capitalist patriarchal environment. I don't hate men, but challenge the gendered nature of our world. It seems to men that if you want to work for reconciliation then you would challenge the meanings of white people and whiteness. If you want to challenge sexism then challenge masculinity (at this point in time). In both cases neither means hating all whites or hating all men, but recognising that dominance in our culture has certain histories. Bring on the new man! Ben - Original Message - From: Lance Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 5:34 PM Subject: Re: [recoznet2] Males Ben, the finite amount of white men in the corporate world (fro rememberthat corporate only makes upa very finiteamount of thepopulatiuon run that world. They are NOT all white men - Im tired of the rhetoric blaming white men for evrything I think its absolute bull shit. Ifthis was so whywould be dying earlier (much earlier) why would be committing suicide at a significantly higher rate, why are we basically being told we should be testubes. No sorry I have just spent three years in Social Science academia and I dontagree with what is being espoused what so ever. You only need to look at the statistics to see the reality of the situation. Instead of blaming a gender for the inhumanity to man and generalising what about getting back to some reality and doing someting about the problems in society. The blame needs to lay fairly and squarely (if anywhere at all) on the political system of beliefs that we have developed. Until we have a truly socially democratic system nothing will change. Regards,Lance (Stop blaming males society) - Original Message - From: Ben Wadham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 9:55 AM Subject: Re: [recoznet2] Males Lance As a white man it is the culture of masculinity that I live in which causes me a lot of grief. Certainly, Aboriginal men are highly disadvantaged, no question, but as I've grown up its been the highly competitive, aggressive, adversarial culture of masculinity that has made me want to work for change. I think changing men is a very important challenge and one that would improve social justice across the globe. White men remain in charge of the western world and its globalising forces, its predominantly white men and other men who run the multinational corporate sector. And women get caught up in this, but it isnt their birthright as it is for most men. Stamp out hegemonic masculinity - that's my motto! To say that males in our culture don't have voice is like saying the colour white has no meaning in our culture. Ben - Original Message - From: Lance Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 11:38 PM Subject: [recoznet2] Males Trudy, If I was female I would be asking what about the females wheres their voice?. Would you see this as a problem too? I dont have a problem with asking for males to speak up, because in the field of human endeavours they are few and far between. That doesn't discount your gender from commentingmy personal aim however is to encourage males to speak up. I didn't start the gender wars however I'm a victim of it, ...now I want to be a survivorMy aim in life is existing for men thats my language thats my state of being. Ive spent quite a of time now looking at the statistics in this country and males are not doing well at
Re: [recoznet2] Males
re 'If your a heterosexual male in this world you are basically blamed for evrything and if your not blamed your rights are denied or threatened. Thats the problem with profeminist male attitude they fail their own sexuality and their own gender. Why not accept your masculinity and be proud of it and learn to help other males to do like wise across all cultures and all ethnic barriers' lance - this is what i meant when i said - living in the 'form' of maleness - are u saying above: hetero males have blotted their copy books and are now held accountable profeminist men not masculine - so are they gay and feminine? proud hetero men wanted to globally convert homo males if this is so, yr 'maleness' is reduced to a gaze at an incompetent 'penis' - unfortunately if not - please explain - but maybe off list as we are dominating a lot :) susanne --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
Re: [recoznet2] language and culture
Lance, I think Ian got it right when he said that you keep shifting the goal-posts of the conversation thus making it almost impossible to get anywhere. I'd put it a bit more strongly and say that you're simply not making sense. For example, you complain that to want to change the name of a stadium called 'nigger' is to be "politically correct". Then you say (below) that "People use words to dominate others plain and simple." That is exactly why some people want to change the name; because to use words like 'nigger' is to exercise a form of power, to create an environment where some people are put down and kept down. The people who want to change the name of the stadium have recognised exactly what you have noticed - that language can be a form of power. That's why some people object to being called 'sheila' or 'fat' or 'nigger' - its a form of domination, of keeping people down. You demand respect from peoplebut you get upset when they demand your respect by not being called'sheila' and simply accuse them of beingpolitically correct'. So if someone accuses you (or your gender) of something, you accuse them of blaming you for everything. But if someone else feels you are putting them down by calling them 'sheila' (or whatever), you dismiss them as 'politically correct'. If you can't see the contradiction in what you're saying, then you're simply not thinking about the issues hard enough. George Orwell, writing during the second world war, once heard someone referring to Germans as Huns. His response what that you ultimately do people more harm by calling people Huns (or whatever) than you do by dropping bombs on them. I know you don't like people quoting books at you, Lance, but it might be worth thinking about what Orwell said. As to your suggestion that I get a chip on my own shoulder because of my gender - well, it seems to me that you and I have different ideas of masculinity. Being strong, being masculine to me is about getting rid of the chips on our shoulders (and I've got plenty) not wallowing in them. Seems to me, Lance, on the basis of how you've replied to this list, that you're not very interested in trying to understand other points of view. You might think that constantly asserting your own point of view is being strong - I think it's weak.Strong men admit that they might be wrong on occasions. Tim Lance wrote: Yes Tim, I and many other have chips on our shoulders asyou put its called exclusion,denigration intimidation and denial of basic rights of respect and selfworth. People use words to dominate others plain and simple. Rather than allow for freedom of expression we are told thisis the way we must express ourselves. I take no offence at what you say Tim. By politicalcorrectedness I am saying those people in dominat positions that dont speak in plain common sense terms that relate to everyone and not just the educated few in societywho understand them. We keep talking aboutculture as thoughitsimportance is above evbreything else except thatmost australians don't have any culture at all thats the issue. Isculture more importantthan real here and now issues suchas what I have previouslyspoken about , third world housing, diabetes, men in rural and aborginal communities, families in brokenhomes, 1 in 5 australians with mentalhealthissues, overcharging privatising beaurocrats, need I go on. Yes I have chip on my shoulder, you should to regards,Lance.
[recoznet2] Reply (?) from Denis Burke
I received a reply (actually two identical replies to two different letters) from the NTTC and the NT Chief Minister, Denis Burke, this morning. I have no qualms about posting it since it is obviously not a letter but a standard piece of propaganda. Australians against mandatory sentencing - and their supporters - will be widening their campaign to include issuing warnings to the Consuls of various countries, Ministers for Foreign affairs and Tourism groups. Further details will be posted as they are decided upon. Trudy ^ From the NTTC: Please find below the response from the Chief Ministers office regarding mandatory sentencing laws. It has been presented in two different formats to allow for different computer equipment. Yours sincerely, Liz Harkin Northern Territory Holiday Centre. In March 1997, the Northern Territory introduced a mandatory minimum sentencing regime for certain crimes against peoples homes and property. These laws, which were passed by the Parliament and confirmed by the Territory people at a general election some months later, have nothing to do with race, creed or colour. They have everything to do with guilt and innocence. These laws do not target the marginalised or disadvantaged community members - or tourists. These laws do target those who break the law and are convicted by the courts. These laws only affect convicted criminals - particularly those who offend and re-offend. If a court finds someone guilty of these offences then they will go to jail - unless there are exceptional circumstances; unless they are aged 15 and 16 and this is their first conviction; unless they are under 15; - then the offender will not go to jail. It is a very simple mandatory minimum sentencing regime - do the crime, youll do the time. Everyone is welcome in the Northern Territory - it is a very multi-cultural society with an abundance of natures wonders. It is a safe place being made safer by the tough stance Territorians take on those who break the law. So dont be misled by the propaganda and lies of those who are more concerned about the rights of criminals than the rights of victims. Dont be misled by the propaganda and lies being spread by those who live thousands of kilometres away from the beauty that is the Northern Territory. If you want to know about the Northern Territory visit the website at www.nt.gov.au If you want to visit us you will be very welcome, but think for a moment about what you would feel if when you return to your own home you find someone has broken in and trashed the place, stealing your hard-earned goods and precious possessions. What would you like to see happen to the criminals who invaded your home? --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 and is archived at http://www.mail-archive.com/ To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." RecOzNet2 is archived for members @ http://www.mail-archive.com/
