Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information
Marc's humorous riposte provides, I suppose, all the analysis that he thinks the Williams' assignment justifies. Having doubts, after laboring in the woodshed from time to time, that such humorous but otherwise pointless posts add anything of substance to the discussion, I will ask those who care to respond to it this question: Is there any circumstance in the American public schooling context in which any of these assignments may properly be given to students? If there are, what are they? If there are not, why not? Jim Henderson Senior Counsel ACLJ ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information
. Those who have followed my work over the years know I have been publicly critical of those who would prohibit teaching about religion. I have just completed-at the request of the Bible Literacy project, an affiliate of the American Bible Society- , vetting a text to teach about the Bible and the religious beliefs it engenders. MY colleagues on that project will, I am certain, testify that I did not shrink from insisting that the authors explicate religious disputes about the Bible in that book. Plainly ,there are circumstance in which religion can be taught to students, although even there a teacher probably has to follow school guidelines. This teacher is not teaching about religion; he is not teaching about Christian beliefs about the Resurrection and other matters. He teaches the resurrection as historical fact, even though it is a religious belief which I and millions of other Americans deny. His selection of texts is designed to convey a religious message, not teach history. Liberals are sometimes suspicious of efforts to teach about religion in the public schools. They are wrong to think that such teaching is unconstitutional or unwise. But if Williams cases is an example of what teaching about religion is about, then it cannot be taught in the public schools. My remark was then not a humorous riposte as Jim would have it. For all the hoopla, this is a frivolous case, Its prosecution will set back efforts to teach religion in the schools in serious and constitutional way. And it is a scary portend of what The Alliance Defense Fund thinks the law is that it pursues this case. Some cases are simply silly, even if they might in some way touch on serious issues. This is one of them. Marc Stern From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 12:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information Marc's humorous riposte provides, I suppose, all the analysis that he thinks the Williams' assignment justifies. Having doubts, after laboring in the woodshed from time to time, that such humorous but otherwise pointless posts add anything of substance to the discussion, I will ask those who care to respond to it this question: Is there any circumstance in the American public schooling context in which any of these assignments may properly be given to students? If there are, what are they? If there are not, why not? Jim Henderson Senior Counsel ACLJ ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information
It is not an easy line to draw, but schools can teach about religion, about religious beliefs, about the roles of religion in history, and so on. But schools cannot teach the religion as truth. The school can teach that Muslims belief there is but one god and Mohammed is his prophet, but cannot teach that there is only one god and Mohammed is his prophet. Schools can teach that most Christians believe in three-gods-in-one or one-god-in-three and that they believe that Jesus is the savior, but cannot teach that Jesus is the savior. And it matters a lot whether it is a science class or a world ideologies class. On Friday, December 10, 2004, at 12:32 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will ask those who care to respond to it this question: Is there any circumstance in the American public schooling context in which any of these assignments may properly be given to students? If there are, what are they? If there are not, why not? Jim Henderson Senior Counsel ACLJ -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8567 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar/ Love the pitcher less and the water more. Sufi Saying ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information
Robert K. Vischer wrote: Lets focus on the assignment to interview a Christian family about Easter and present the findings, as that seems, at least in my view, to be the least egregious. If Williams had given similar interview assignments covering other faith traditions at other holidays, wouldnt that be palatable? If he was even-handed in the religious coverage of his assignments, it seems that the assignments could be defended as attempts to let students gain insight into the lived realities of their communitys faith traditions. The problem with learning about religion simply as an external object to be studied in a textbook is that it necessarily tends to foster an impression of religion as a relic. Nothing eviscerates the vibrancy of faith like boiling it down to a two-page textbook synopsis. Certainly Williams should not be allowed to present the resurrection as historical fact, but is there any problem giving the students access to individuals who do view the resurrection (or Passover, etc.) as historical fact? Yes, that one assignment, aside from the others and in an entirely different context, might be appropriate. But would you care to lay odds on whether Mr. Williams had his students interview a Muslim family to find out how they celebrated Ramadan? I'd say they're probably slim to none. All of that will of course come out in court or in depositions. Ed Brayton ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information
Is it a sociology class? I think it depends a lot on purpose and presentation. I also think that we as lawyers, having been trained in a certain kind of compartmentalization and detachment and objectivity (please don't ignore the certain kind and blast me for an assertion I am not making), underestimate the difficulty of making the distinctions that we take for granted. And the whole experience of a believer is different from that of an outsider and some believers believe that it would be untrue to their beliefs even to investigate other things or to present information they don't agree with as anything but falsehood. And some of these people are teachers. My boys experienced a variety of incidents in schools where fundamentalists or evangeilcals and in one instance even young earther Christian teachers made explicit statements about religion and religous truth and/or taught, and in one case tested, certain things that excluded as religions anything other than Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. These were mostly social science and English teachers. As much as they or anyone else guards against injecting beliefs into the classroom, it happens -- the time together is just so extensive and intensive. So we need to cut a bit of slack for those sorts of things. But there comes a time when the teachers go over the line in assignments or comments or whatever. And this seems to be one of them. But I would really need to know all about it to make that decision. There are those on this list who have in the past opined that it is not possible to teach about religion without demeaning believers in the process -- it is, to them, inherent it teaching about instead of teaching the truth of it. That level of paranoia or thin-skinnedness or world view or whatever motivates those sorts of comments cannot be responded to effectively. There is no way around that world view. But that does not make that world view the right one or grant it a unit veto over the rest of us who want to understand each other. Steve -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8567 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar/ Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. Mark Twain ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information
In a message dated 12/10/2004 1:55:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But would you care to lay odds on whether Mr. Williams had his students interview a Muslim family to find out how they celebrated Ramadan? I'd say they're probably slim to none. All of that will of course come out in court or in depositions. Hard to say, but many on this list will recall last year's controversy over purported indoctrination in Islam in a California middle school, where parents seeking an opt-out option were refused relief from having their children spend some six weeks in immersion study of Islam. The text used in teaching about Islam in that program, had the following assignment in it: Following are excerpts and some suggested review exercises from Across the Centuries, a Houghton Mifflin social studies textbook for seventh-graders: "An Islamic term that is often misunderstood is jihad. The term means to struggle, to do one's best to resist temptation and overcome evil. Under certain conditions, the struggle to overcome evil may require action." "These revelations confirmed both Muhammad's belief in one God, or monotheism, and his role as the last messenger in a long line of prophets sent by God. The God he believed in Allah is the same God of other monotheistic religions, Judaism and Christianity. Allah, the Arabic word for God, is the word used in the Qur'an." Review: "Writing activity. Assume you are a Muslim soldier on your way to conquer Syria in the year A.D. 635. Write three journal entries that reveal your thoughts about Islam, fighting in the battle, or life in the desert." "Collaborative learning. Form small groups of students to build a miniature mosque. You may decide to use cardboard, papier-mache, or other materials. Have one member do research at the library to find out what the insides of mosques look like. Have another member design a building plan. And have two members collect the building materials. Together, construct the mosque according to your plan." Of course, that Houghton Mifflin and a different California school district have decided to inculcate Islam does not justify Mr. Williams' in inculcating Christianity, if that is what he has done. Jim Henderson Senior Counsel ACLJ ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information
Perhaps we should wait for confirmation that the "Easter handout" is authentic before judging Mr. Williams based on it. The source for it is a webpage that is very hostile to Mr. Williams and to the Alliance Defense Fund. Mark S. Scarberry Pepperdine University School of Law -Original Message- From: Ed Brayton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 11:44 AM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information I think the folks in the school district that you refer to would have had a pretty strong case that many of those assignments were impermissable. Was there ever a lawsuit filed in that case, by the way? At any rate, it has nothing to do with this situation. Let me ask you directly, Jim: do you think the Easter handout that I posted was appropriate for a public school classroom? Do you think that it could or should pass constitutional muster? Ed Brayton ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information
Student writes "only a person of very low intelligence could believe this. The works studied are less realistic than the Wizard of Oz and contemptible." Onlythe worst form of moral monstr could believe that people who did believe in him deserve to be damned forever." What grade. Does it matter whether the teacher thinks the student got Christianity right? Who determines what constitutes getting Christianity right? MAG. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/10/04 04:15PM In a message dated 12/10/2004 1:44:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It seems to me that the only relevant question in terms of this lawsuit is whether any of those assignments are properly given by this teacher to his students, not whether they might hypothetically be okay in a different set of circumstances. I say they clearly are not. Well, why? I looked over each of these assignments and I am dumbfounded by the assertion that these assignments inculcate belief. They seem well crafted to guide a student into studying the tenets of, and learning about, important aspects of the Christian religion, and about the connection between the Christian religion and the formation and progress of this Nation. The only way that such dogmatic rejections of the propriety of Mr. Williams' easter assignment could be justified is if noassignmentinvolving thereading of the Easter story from the Bible may be made in a public school, if nowriting assignment ever may requirea student to "respond" to themes such as sacrifice, resurrection, hope, new life.I realize that I am asking persons who challenge the propriety of this assignment sheet to offer some demonstration of its unconstitutionality beyond the bare assertion of it; and I realize that such calls for proof often are charged by others as a dodge for real analysis. But I am truly perplexed. This assignment sheet does not, to my reading of it, do anything other that provide the means for a student to learn about these subjects. Jim Henderson Senior Counsel ACLJ ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information
In a message dated 12/10/2004 4:28:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Student writes "only a person of very low intelligence could believe this. The works studied are less realistic than the Wizard of Oz and contemptible." Only the worst form of moral monstr could believe that people who did believe in him deserve to be damned forever." What grade. Does it matter whether the teacher thinks the student got Christianity right? Who determines what constitutes getting Christianity right? If the assignment is to write an opinion piece, then that is the teacher's problem, as I indicated in an earlier post. If the syllabus makes relevant to the grading performance on standards of grammar and composition, those factors can be given their proper weight, but the opinion expressed, however infantile and uninformed, should not be downgraded because of the view expressed. Jim Henderson Senior Counsel ACLJ ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information
Sandy's hypothetical is an excellent one, but let me add a refinement: I'm not sure that this assignment would violate the Establishment Clause, or even that Williams' assignment did so. Yet would anyone on the list think that it's unconstitutional for the school to conclude that this assignment causes more trouble and upset than it's worth, and that the teacher therefore ought to be barred from assigning it? That, I take it, is the purely legal question in the Williams case. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Sanford Levinson Sent: Fri 12/10/2004 2:16 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Cc: Subject: RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information Imagine the following assignment by a Jewish teacher to his class in World History two weeks before Easter (when, it so happens, the syllabus for the course is treating the Holocaust): The account of Jesus's trial and subsequent punishment as set out in the Christian Gospels is viewed by many historians and theologians as a central source of anti-Semitism and the cause of persecution and, indeed, massacre, of Jews throughout the ages. Please read the various accounts of Jesus's trial in the four Gospels and indicate why someone might view them as anti-Semitic. (Is there significant variation among the Gospels in this regard?) Would anyone on this list who supports Mr. Williams have any problems with this assignment? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marc Stern Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 11:24 AM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information IF this is typical of what the teacher was complaining about being forbidden to teach, the only question for the court is whether plaintiff will be liable for the school's attorneys fee under Rule 11, Marc Stern -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ed Brayton Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 12:18 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Steven Williams Case - more factual information The key question in the Steven Williams case, as Jim Henderson and I agreed last week, will revolve around the facts of the case - the contents of the handouts that were disallowed by the principal and whether they indicate that what Mr. Williams was engaged in was proselytizing rather than teaching history. Some of those handouts were included in the complaint that the ADF filed (http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/media/WilliamsvCupertinoComplaint.pd f), and one more has been published at http://www.eriposte.com/philosophy/fundamentalism/StevenWilliams_Easter_ assignment.jpg. The latter is apparently an assignment that Williams handed out about Easter to his 5th grade class. Here is the text of that assignment: Activities on Exploring Easter and Why it's Relevant in our Culture and Nation Christianity has had a huge influence on our nation and so during the Easter season it's important to know why Christians celebrate this 'Holy'-day and what impact Jessu Christ had on our society and nation. Pick 2 of the following activities and present them next week. * Read the East er story in the bible. Start reading Luke, chapter 22 and continue to the end of the book of Luke. Write a resopnse to some of the themes in the Easter story of the bible: betrayal, sacrifice, resurrection, love, hope, new life. Write a response to any of the themes in the story using references from the bible and how they apply to our culture today. Make a diorama of a scene from the story and attach your written response. *Interview a Christian family that celebrates Easter and write about what they do and why they do it. Write a summary of your interview and give an oral presentation to the class on what you found using props and antyhing appropriate to enhancing your presentation. *John Adams wrote, Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. He also wrote a paper called, American Independence was Achieved Upon the Principles of Christianity. Write a one page report on why he felt so strongly that this nation should be
Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information
On Friday, December 10, 2004, at 02:27 PM, Ed Brayton wrote: Steven Jamar wrote: Is it a sociology class? I think it depends a lot on purpose and presentation. Mr. Williams teaches 5th grade. I should have been more clear -- I was responding to Henderson's inquiry about could such an assignment ever be ok. Ed Brayton -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8567 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar/ In these words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: It goes on. Robert Frost ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information
I think the folks in the school district that you refer to would have had a pretty strong case that many of those assignments were impermissable. Was there ever a lawsuit filed in that case, by the way? At any rate, it has nothing to do with this situation. Let me ask you directly, Jim: do you think the Easter handout that I posted was appropriate for a public school classroom? Do you think that it could or should pass constitutional muster? Ed Brayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/10/2004 1:55:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But would you care to lay odds on whether Mr. Williams had his students interview a Muslim family to find out how they celebrated Ramadan? I'd say they're probably slim to none. All of that will of course come out in court or in depositions. Hard to say, but many on this list will recall last year's controversy over purported indoctrination in Islam in a California middle school, where parents seeking an opt-out option were refused relief from having their children spend some six weeks in immersion study of Islam. The text used in teaching about Islam in that program, had the following assignment in it: Following are excerpts and some suggested review exercises from Across the Centuries, a Houghton Mifflin social studies textbook for seventh-graders: "An Islamic term that is often misunderstood is jihad. The term means to struggle, to do one's best to resist temptation and overcome evil. Under certain conditions, the struggle to overcome evil may require action." "These revelations confirmed both Muhammad's belief in one God, or monotheism, and his role as the last messenger in a long line of prophets sent by God. The God he believed in Allah is the same God of other monotheistic religions, Judaism and Christianity. Allah, the Arabic word for God, is the word used in the Qur'an." Review: "Writing activity. Assume you are a Muslim soldier on your way to conquer Syria in the year A.D. 635. Write three journal entries that reveal your thoughts about Islam, fighting in the battle, or life in the desert." "Collaborative learning. Form small groups of students to build a miniature mosque. You may decide to use cardboard, papier-mache, or other materials. Have one member do research at the library to find out what the insides of mosques look like. Have another member design a building plan. And have two members collect the building materials. Together, construct the mosque according to your plan." Of course, that Houghton Mifflin and a different California school district have decided to inculcate Islam does not justify Mr. Williams' in inculcating Christianity, if that is what he has done. Jim Henderson Senior Counsel ACLJ ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information
In a message dated 12/10/2004 1:14:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: He teaches the resurrection as historical fact, even though it is a religious belief which I and millions of other Americans deny. Marc raises an interesting point here. Because he has a belief about something that may be (or may not) a fact, he disputes the proprietyof Mr. Williams' teaching about the incident as a fact. From that leap, I suppose, is derived the expurgation principle by which every fact of religious significance becomes suspect as an instructional device. Will we really saddle our public school teachers with the burden of saying: "of course, some people do not agree that this fact is true, some people specifically state that the circumstances described by this fact are false, some people find the assertion of this fact as a true historical incident an affront to them personally because they do not hold to that fact and to their religious faith." ?? Jim Henderson Senior Counsel ACLJ ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information
I'm not sure that I understand the point here. Is it that it is acceptable for public school teachers to teach religious beliefs such as the resurrection of Jesus as historical fact? Or is it that it is too burdensome for teachers to be saddled with the responsibility of telling their students when a class discusses religion that In the United States, we live under a constitutional system committed to religious liberty. Americans believe in many different religious faiths and the tenets of these faiths are often inconsistent with each other. Adherence to religious beliefs is a matter left to individuals and faith communities to decide for themselves. That is why the government and the public schools do not tell people what religion, if any, they should follow. When we study religion in this class, we are studying what different people believe; not what people should believe. Our government and our public schools have no authority to declare religious truth. Alan Brownstein At 04:18 PM 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote: In a message dated 12/10/2004 1:14:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: He teaches the resurrection as historical fact, even though it is a religious belief which I and millions of other Americans deny. Marc raises an interesting point here. Because he has a belief about something that may be (or may not) a fact, he disputes the propriety of Mr. Williams' teaching about the incident as a fact. From that leap, I suppose, is derived the expurgation principle by which every fact of religious significance becomes suspect as an instructional device. Will we really saddle our public school teachers with the burden of saying: of course, some people do not agree that this fact is true, some people specifically state that the circumstances described by this fact are false, some people find the assertion of this fact as a true historical incident an affront to them personally because they do not hold to that fact and to their religious faith. ?? Jim Henderson Senior Counsel ACLJ ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
