Re: Can religious and secular courts exist in the same nation?
Can religious & secular courts exist in the same nation? Excellent question the answer to which is: Matthew 6:24 24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. (KJV)? ? Luke 11:17 17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. (KJV) ? ?John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 8:54 am Subject: Can religious and secular courts exist in the same nation? An interesting piece in today's NY Times. ? http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/world/europe/19shariah.html? ? Bobby ?? Robert Justin Lipkin Distinguished Professor of Law Widener University School of Law Delaware Ratio Juris, Contributor:? http://ratiojuris.blogspot.com/ Essentially Contested America,?Editor-In-Chief http://www.essentiallycontestedamerica.org/Ratio Juris, Contributor:? http://ratiojuris.blogspot.com/ Essentially Contested America,?Editor-In-Chief http://www.essentiallycontestedamerica.org/ Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news & more! ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
JOHN LOFTON / Re: Kid misrecites the Pledge of Allegiance - can he be graded down for that?
Ahh, but was he wearing a flag pin?! That's the important question, right? No! JL John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: Steven Jamar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 10:02 am Subject: Re: Kid misrecites the Pledge of Allegiance - can he be graded down for that? I think he should include the correct text, then handle the revision as a "decoration. But I disagree with Doug -- I think it is really just about learning the text through some creative means so students don't think the recitation is "and to the republic for Richard Stans" and the like. But it seems a close question and I would probably take Doug's position if it were my kids -- and be willing to let them take the docked points for the principle of the thing. Steve On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Douglas Laycock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I would argue that the requirement to decorate the assignment indicates that this is celebrating or honoring the text, and thus more like an affirmation than like a mere requirement that he prove that he knows the official text.? And therefore, covered by West Virginia v. Barnette, 324 U.S 629 (1943).? He doesn't have to do it.? Quoting Ed Darrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Here's a not hypothetical hypothetical for you.? A family calls you > late on a Thursday night for advice on an odd point -- their son > thinks the Pledge of Allegiance is too religious, and has arrived at > an odd compromise that works for him in school.? But now he has to > write out what it is he says. > > How would you advise the family in this case below? > > I've become aware of a family who has a child who recites the pledge > of allegiance by saying "under law" instead of "under God." > Apparently no one has ever noticed. > > But tonight he has homework to write the pledge of allegiance on paper > and to decorate it.? This family is asking what legal ramifications > there might be should a teacher take issue with the child writing > "under law" instead of "under God." > > The homework is due tomorrow, Friday.? Can anyone provide anything > helpful that I can convey to the family?? Thanks! > > > Not my case, I'm grateful to say.? Not my homework, either. > > What should the parents do? > > Ed Darrell > Dallas > ? Douglas Laycock Yale Kamisar Collegiate Professor of Law University of Michigan Law School 625 S. State St. Ann Arbor, MI? 48109-1215 ? 734-647-9713 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. ?Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Prof. Steven Jamar Howard University School of Law Associate Director, Institute of Intellectual Property and Social Justice (IIPSJ) Inc. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: LOFTON / Re: Defamation of Religion
In point of fact, strictly speaking, there is no such thing that actually exists that is called "religion." That's why I put it in quotes. "Religion" is an abstract category that no one actually practices any more than someone plays "sports" or eats "food." Thus, I do not believe you can "trivialize" that which does not actually exist. As for creating "conceptual and practical confusion," I believe this happens when one talks about unreal things as if they are real. In any event, if someone denies that all governments are "religious" in origin, and based on some kind of "religion," let's test what I say. Name me a government that you say is not "religious" and I'll show you how it is. Thank you.? John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 6:52 am Subject: Re: LOFTON / Re: Defamation of Religion This certainly trivializes the concept of "religion." A government that persecutes theists, defames religion in general, and so forth is religious? I suppose the?argument is that such a government simply adopts the "wrong" religion.??I suppose similarly each individual is religious no matter what that person's view is about the existence of God or the practice of religion. Taking this route, however,? creates both?conceptual and practical confusion, but one is, of course, free to take it. To what end? ? Bobby ?? Robert Justin Lipkin Professor of Law Widener University School of Law Delaware Ratio Juris, Contributor:? http://ratiojuris.blogspot.com/ Essentially Contested America,?Editor-In-Chief http://www.essentiallycontestedamerica.org/ ? In a message dated 7/31/2008 5:38:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ALL government is "religious." The only question is: Which "religion" will a government be based on. Ratio Juris, Contributor:? http://ratiojuris.blogspot.com/ Essentially Contested America,?Editor-In-Chief http://www.essentiallycontestedamerica.org/ ? In a message dated 7/31/2008 5:38:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ALL government is "religious." The only question is: Which "religion" will a government be based on. ? In a message dated 7/31/2008 5:38:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ALL government is "religious." The only question is: Which "religion" will a government be based on. Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: LOFTON / Re: From the list custodian
And you mean by "purely secular" what? Thank you. JL John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: Volokh, Eugene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:13 pm Subject: RE: LOFTON / Re: From the list custodian ??? I don't insist that people speak in thousands of words -- but in my experience, "pithy" one-liners rarely tell us much, and beyond that, most law professors who specialize in the field have heard pretty much all the pithy one-liners before.? We've heard that church and state should be separate, and we know how many different interpretations there are of that.? We've heard that all government is "religious" under certain sufficiently broad definitions of "religion," but that doesn't really tell us what government actions with regard to religion are permissible. ? ??? Now I know that some people disagree, and find such generalities more helpful than I do.? And naturally, different list operators may have different views on the subject.? But, on this list,?I hope you'd be good enough to accommodate my preferences on this score. ? ??? Eugene From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JOHN LOFTON Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 4:56 PM To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Subject: LOFTON / Re: From the list custodian There's no such thing as a "purely secular" government. And do you have software that automatically gripes about whatever I say? Every time I post something that's pithy, to the point, packed with wisdom, and?with no bloviating, you complain. And my most recent statement, and the one that begins this post, is designed precisely to "foster concrete discussion." I realize why many lawyers believe that something, in order to make sense, must be said in thousands of words, but I disagree. Am I allowed to disagree? Perhaps we might begin a "concrete discussion", Mr. List Custodian, with? you saying what you mean by "purely secular." Or we might?even discuss what constitutes a "concrete discussion." Thank you. John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: Volokh, Eugene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 5:50 pm Subject: From the list custodian ??? Folks:? Let me mention again that list discussion tends to be most helpful when it goes into concrete and detailed analysis, and not cliche generalities. ? ??? Recall that the thread began with a post discussing what protection should be offered to speech that's critical of religion.? I'm pretty sure that generalities about "government and religion should [be kept separate]" or "all government is religious" are not that helpful here; at that level of abstraction, those generalities tell us very little about how particular speech restrictions should be treated.? ? ??? For instance, even a purely secular government might choose to ban certain statements about religious groups, alongside certain statements about races, sexual orientations, and the like, because of a concern that such statements might cause violent reactions by their targets, might incite violence against their targets, or might simply cause unjustified emotional distress to their targets.? I oppose such restrictions, but I can't defend that opposition through generalities such as separation of church and state.? Conversely, even a religiously-based government might well decide not to ban speach critical of various religions. ? ??? More broadly, please note that the main purpose of this list is to foster concrete discussion -- discussion useful to legal academics -- on technical legal questions related to the law of government and religion.? ? ??? Eugene From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JOHN LOFTON Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 2:38 PM To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Subject: LOFTON / Re: Defamation of Religion ALL government is "religious." The only question is: Which "religion" will a government be based on. John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: CAROL MOORE
LOFTON / Re: From the list custodian
There's no such thing as a "purely secular" government. And do you have software that automatically gripes about whatever I say? Every time I post something that's pithy, to the point, packed with wisdom, and?with no bloviating, you complain. And my most recent statement, and the one that begins this post, is designed precisely to "foster concrete discussion." I realize why many lawyers believe that something, in order to make sense, must be said in thousands of words, but I disagree. Am I allowed to disagree? Perhaps we might begin a "concrete discussion", Mr. List Custodian, with? you saying what you mean by "purely secular." Or we might?even discuss what constitutes a "concrete discussion." Thank you. John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: Volokh, Eugene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 5:50 pm Subject: From the list custodian ??? Folks:? Let me mention again that list discussion tends to be most helpful when it goes into concrete and detailed analysis, and not cliche generalities. ? ??? Recall that the thread began with a post discussing what protection should be offered to speech that's critical of religion.? I'm pretty sure that generalities about "government and religion should [be kept separate]" or "all government is religious" are not that helpful here; at that level of abstraction, those generalities tell us very little about how particular speech restrictions should be treated.? ? ??? For instance, even a purely secular government might choose to ban certain statements about religious groups, alongside certain statements about races, sexual orientations, and the like, because of a concern that such statements might cause violent reactions by their targets, might incite violence against their targets, or might simply cause unjustified emotional distress to their targets.? I oppose such restrictions, but I can't defend that opposition through generalities such as separation of church and state.? Conversely, even a religiously-based government might well decide not to ban speach critical of various religions. ? ??? More broadly, please note that the main purpose of this list is to foster concrete discussion -- discussion useful to legal academics -- on technical legal questions related to the law of government and religion.? ? ??? Eugene From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JOHN LOFTON Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 2:38 PM To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Subject: LOFTON / Re: Defamation of Religion ALL government is "religious." The only question is: Which "religion" will a government be based on. John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: CAROL MOORE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 5:34 pm Subject: RE: Defamation of Religion And if this discussion doesn't make one want to dig up James Madison and kiss his molding corpse for penning "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion..." I don't know what would. With all due respect to those who profess belief, government and religion should have separate bedrooms, if not separate houses, with no conjugal visits. This trend puts Nixon's domino theory in a new light. Carol Moore Gentle Reader ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to ot
LOFTON / Re: Defamation of Religion
ALL government is "religious." The only question is: Which "religion" will a government be based on. John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: CAROL MOORE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 5:34 pm Subject: RE: Defamation of Religion And if this discussion doesn't make one want to dig up James Madison and kiss his molding corpse for penning "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion..." I don't know what would. With all due respect to those who profess belief, government and religion should have separate bedrooms, if not separate houses, with no conjugal visits. This trend puts Nixon's domino theory in a new light. Carol Moore Gentle Reader ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: JOHN LOFTON / Question, Please -- Jurors....
OK, so tell me, please, when my question is OK to ask. Thank you. JL
John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
Recovering Republican
"Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are
those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ."
-- John Calvin.
-Original Message-
From: Volokh, Eugene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Sent: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 3:44 pm
Subject: RE: JOHN LOFTON / Question, Please -- Jurors
??? What's lacking in any concrete sense is any link
between the question and the law of government and religion -- or, more
specifically, the link between the question and the exclusion of atheists from
jury service, and whether or not that is or should be
permissible?(especially given Torcaso v. Watkins).
?
??? Eugene
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JOHN
LOFTON
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 1:42 PM
To:
religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: JOHN LOFTON / Question,
Please -- Jurors
The question is hardly
abstract; jurors face it every day. JL
John Lofton, Editor,
TheAmericanView.com
Recovering Republican
"Accursed is that peace of
which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which
it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John
Calvin.
-Original Message-
From: Volokh, Eugene
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Sent: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 3:39
pm
Subject: RE: JOHN LOFTON / Question, Please -- Jurors
??? Folks:? Please let's focus on technical
legal discussions of the questions of the law of government and
religion.? If someone wants to tie these questions to Torcaso v. Watkins,
or for that matter to other legal principles, that's great.? But
discussions at this level of abstraction, with no tie to concrete legal
matters, is not helpful on the list.
?
???
The list custodian
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of JOHN LOFTON
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008
1:37 PM
To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
Subject:
JOHN LOFTON / Question, Please -- Jurors
Are they to be judges
only of "the facts" or also "the law"? And if not "the law," sez who? What
is a juror to do if he believes law is unjust -- un-Godly,
un-Constitutional?
John Lofton, Editor,
TheAmericanView.com
Recovering Republican
"Accursed is that peace
of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by
which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John
Calvin.
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Re: JOHN LOFTON / Question, Please -- Jurors....
The question is hardly abstract; jurors face it every day. JL John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: Volokh, Eugene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 3:39 pm Subject: RE: JOHN LOFTON / Question, Please -- Jurors ??? Folks:? Please let's focus on technical legal discussions of the questions of the law of government and religion.? If someone wants to tie these questions to Torcaso v. Watkins, or for that matter to other legal principles, that's great.? But discussions at this level of abstraction, with no tie to concrete legal matters, is not helpful on the list. ? ??? The list custodian From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JOHN LOFTON Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 1:37 PM To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Subject: JOHN LOFTON / Question, Please -- Jurors Are they to be judges only of "the facts" or also "the law"? And if not "the law," sez who? What is a juror to do if he believes law is unjust -- un-Godly, un-Constitutional? John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
JOHN LOFTON / Question, Please -- Jurors....
Are they to be judges only of "the facts" or also "the law"? And if not "the law," sez who? What is a juror to do if he believes law is unjust -- un-Godly, un-Constitutional? John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Atheists on Jury Duty in Alabma
John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: Douglas Laycock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 3:15 pm Subject: Re: Atheists on Jury Duty in Alabma Well, it's clearly unconstitutional, as you say.? Torcaso v. Watkins (US 1961) says government can't require affirmation of belief in God to be a notary public.? Jury member should be no different.? And we have provided alternate forms of oath for religious objectors since the 18th century.? Everyone gets to swear or affirm; the option to affirm was written for Quakers, but it should be available for you too.? But it might be very hard to set this up as a case a court could decide.? Do you sue somebody for an injunction to make sure it doesn't happen again?? Well, what are the odds you will be called again?? What are the odds the next judge and the next pair of lawyers would react the same way?? This seems like a pretty idiosyncratic event.? So you might not be able to get an injunction. It might even be that Alabama law provides that jurors can affirm instead of swear, and that this judge didn't know that or just ignored it.? Or didn't think it applied to you. Do you sue for damages for not being on the jury?? What damages?? Your time was given back to you.? Were you humiliated?? Suffer emotional distress?? It has to be significant, not just a momentary upset.? Maybe you could you sue for $1 in nominal damages as a way of presenting the issue.? But the judge and the prosecutor are absolutely immune from any suit for damages.? That leaves only the defense lawyer, and he will claim that he should be immune too.? He's not even a government?actor. So there's a good chance that the court will never reach the merits of your claim. If you use your own name, you have to be prepared for a terrific amount of public abuse and hate mail; you will make yourself notorious.? The court might let?you sue as Jane Doe, and that usually provides substantial protection, but people will try to figure out who you are, and they may succeed. Quoting CAROL MOORE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > I have been rejected as a juror, just this week, after having been selected > and seated because, when I approached the Circuit Court Judge about my > inability to say the oath with "so help me god" at the end of it, he asked > the prosecutor and defense attorney to vote on it (and this is after opening > arguments, mind you).? I stated my willingness to serve and to talk an > alternative oath.? The defense attorney refused, saying he could not have a > juror who did not believe in god (the case was drunk & disorderly, resisting > arrest).? I was removed (which, if one is actually looking for way to duck > jury duty, this one was easy).? My question to you all, besides being an > obvious violation the US Constitution, is this worth pursuing? > Carol Moore, list reader > > ___ > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as > private.? Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are > posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can > (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. > > > Douglas Laycock Yale Kamisar Collegiate Professor of Law University of Michigan Law School 625 S. State St. Ann Arbor, MI? 48109-1215 ? 734-647-9713 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
JOHN LOFTON / Re: Archbishop Williams and Sharia Courts
Two legal masters cannot be served simultaneously; a legal house divided against itself cannot stand; there cannot be sovereignties within sovereignties. The one-and-the-many problem is solved only by the Triune God. John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: Volokh, Eugene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 6:11 pm Subject: RE: Archbishop Williams and Sharia Courts ??? Well, I should say in the Archbishop's defense that he would likewise impose some public-policy-based limits to the enforceability of sharia judgments -- his point (and now that I've read his full speech, I'm pretty confident of it) is that sharia law should generally be usable by consenting parties, though subject to various public-policy-based limits. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Vance R. Koven Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 4:57 AM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Archbishop Williams and Sharia Courts Not being a family law expert, I can't make any definitive comment, and possibly not even a coherent one, but my recollection is that courts will look more closely at prenups where there is an indication, not just of change of mind, but change of position--for example, religious conversion, spousal bankruptcy--that would have affected a party's consent ab initio. Plus there are those "minimum standards" you're referring to: if the whole body of EU human rights law (as on the books, not, as we have seen, as they are (un)enforced) is incorporated into this consideration, doesn't the exception swallow the rule? Should a court recognize a divorce, for example, obtained by the husband's unilateral threefold recitation "I divorce you" without looking into the substantive protections offered to the wife and how custody of children and visiting rights are administered? And if it will only enforce the divorce if these secular standards are met, what's the point of "deferring" to the religious law? I'm more comfortable talking about choice of law and arbitration analogies, but even there you have public policy exceptions to enforcement. In the US states are constrained in applying public policy exceptions by the Full Faith and Credit clause, against other states' rules, and by the Supremacy Clause in the case of the Federal Arbitration Act (which however allows a court to decline to enforce an arbitration clause on grounds applicable to enforcement of contracts generally, so for example a showing of duress will defeat the arbitration clause). Vance On Feb 7, 2008 11:05 PM, Volokh, Eugene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ? ? ? ?Wouldn't the current treatment of prenuptial agreements offer a useful analogy? ?(I've heard that English courts generally haven't recognized them, and that would be an analogy, too, but let's assume that they are recognized.) ?Such agreements, as I understand it, are generally enforceable, even against a spouse who changes his or her minds, and notwithstanding the possible unfairness to either party. ?On the other hand, as I understand it there are some substantive minimums below which the prenuptial agreement's provisions can't go, and there are procedural rules, too. ?If such secular agreements are allowed, it seems to me religious ones should be as well, and on much the same terms. ? ? ? ?Eugene > -Original Message- > From: Paul Finkelman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 7:23 PM > To: Volokh, Eugene; religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > Subject: RE: Archbishop Williams and Sharia Courts > > the latter might make some sense, but might also leave some > people -- women especially -- deprived of civil rights; > furthermore, what happens to someone who leaves the faith? > > Paul Finkelman > President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law > ? ? ?and Public Policy > Albany Law School > 80 New Scotland Avenue > Albany, New York ? 12208-3494 > > 518-445-3386 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/07/08 8:04 PM >>> > ? ? Is the Archbishop talking about different legal rules for > different communities selected by government decision, or > just about binding arbitration (in whatever system, religious > or otherwise, of their >
LOFTON / Re: Mass self-flaggelation for the Muslim holiday Ashura
We need to get out of Iraq and return to the days when Iraqis tortured each others and themselves --- though how this could be I do not know since Bush said this is a "peaceful" religion. John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: Volokh, Eugene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 1:46 pm Subject: Mass self-flaggelation for the Muslim holiday Ashura A blog reader asked about this; my guess is that there aren't any generally applicable laws barring the public drawing of blood in the first instance, but if there were, it seems to me this would raise some interesting questions under state statutory or constitutional rules that provide some heightened scrutiny for burdens on religious observance. (Note that New York courts have adopted a sort of intermediatish scrutiny under the state religious freedom guarantee.) But I'd never heard of this practice -- does anyone know whether it is religiously mandated, not mandated but religiously encouraged, or (to the extent these distinctions can be effectively drawn) merely a part of a cultural tradition that accompanies the religious holiday? Thanks, Eugene Hi Prof. Volokh-- I wonder if you'd be willing to address on the Volokh Conspiracy the legality/illegality(?) of the mass flagellations that are part of the Muslim holiday Ashura, which is occurring this week. Specifically, some really gruesome photos of a public celebration in Queens, New York have appeared online: http://legacyeditorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/imageResults.aspx?s =ImagesSearchState%7c0%7c0%7c-1%7c28%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c1%7c%7c%7c0%7c0%7c0%7 c0%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c7%7c%7cashura+new+york%7c9221119423673258999%7c0%7c 0%7c0%7c0&p=7&tag=3 <http://legacyeditorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/imageResults.aspx? s=ImagesSearchState%7c0%7c0%7c-1%7c28%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c1%7c%7c%7c0%7c0%7c0% 7c0%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c7%7c%7cashura+new+york%7c9221119423673258999%7c0%7 c0%7c0%7c0&p=7&tag=3> I'm no lawyer, but it seems to me that having a large group of people draw blood from each other is a huge public health hazard. How far does freedom of religion go? ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Romney Delivers Important Speech On His Religious Beliefs
I believe Romney also forgot to mention that Mormonism teaches that Jesus is the spiritual brother of Lucifer. Try finding THAT in your Bible! John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- J
Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health...
Of course, as we all know, or should know, there is no such thing as "religion;' nobody practices anything called "religion" any more than anyone plays something called "sports" or eats something called "food." But, I get it, though I disagree. The name-of-the-game here, as on so many academic sites, is keep it vague, abstract, don't speak too plainly, glittering generalities many of which don't even glitter . JL. John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: Douglas Laycock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 6:42 pm Subject: Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health... The distinction is not between religion and theology.? It is between religion with or without law, or between theology with or without law.? Religion as it interacts with law is on topic; religion in itself is off topic.? Quoting John Lofton [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > > If I may ask, please: How do you separate so easily "theology" from > "religion & law"? Thank you. JL > > > > > > John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com > Recovering Republican > > "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and > blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain > the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Volokh, Eugene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics > Sent: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 11:09 am > Subject: RE: Recent Threads / True Mental Health... > > > > > > > > > > >? ? Folks:? I like to think that the list is quite inclusive and > pluralistic when it comes to viewpoints about the law of government and > religion.? But it is not a place to discuss theology -- or psychology -- > as such.? There are plenty of places online, I'm sure, that are devoted > to precisely those questions.? This just isn't one of them. > >? ? Eugene > > > > >? ? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Lofton >? ? Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 7:39 PM >? ? To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu >? ? Subject: Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health... > > >? ? Tolerance, Ed, tolerance; be more diverse, more pluralistic, > more inclusive. JL > > >? ? John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com >? ? Recovering Republican > >? ? "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, > and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain > the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. > > >? ? -Original Message- >? ? From: Ed Brayton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >? ? To: 'Law & Religion issues for Law Academics' > >? ? Sent: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 10:18 pm >? ? Subject: RE: Recent Threads / True Mental Health... > > >? ? The first amendment applies to what the government can do, not > to what is acceptable on a private listserv. This list is for discussion > of religion and law, not for you to harangue and proselytize. Surely > that shouldn't need to be explained on this list of all places. > >? ? Ed Brayton > >? ? -Original Message- >? ? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ] On Behalf Of John Lofton >? ? Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 9:51 PM >? ? To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu >? ? Subject: Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health... > > >? ? Chill, Ed, it's called free speech, the free exercise of > religion, First Amendment, remember? Be more tolerant, please...JL > > >? ? John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com >? ? Recovering Republican > >? ? "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, > and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain > the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. > > >? ? -Original Message- >? ? From: Ed Brayton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >? ? To: 'Law & Religion issues for Law Academics' > >? ? Sent: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 6:20 pm >? ? Subject: RE: Recent Threads / True Mental Health... > > >? ? Is this really the appropriate list for such preaching? I know > it damn well isn't the appropriate list to be declaring some members of > the list mentally ill. > >? ? Ed Brayton > >? ? -Original Message- >? ? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > &
Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health...
If I may ask, please: How do you separate so easily "theology" from "religion
& law"? Thank you. JL
John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
Recovering Republican
"Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are
those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ."
-- John Calvin.
-Original Message-
From: Volokh, Eugene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Sent: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 11:09 am
Subject: RE: Recent Threads / True Mental Health...
Folks: I like to think that the list is quite inclusive and
pluralistic when it comes to viewpoints about the law of government and
religion. But it is not a place to discuss theology -- or psychology --
as such. There are plenty of places online, I'm sure, that are devoted
to precisely those questions. This just isn't one of them.
Eugene
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Lofton
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 7:39 PM
To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health...
Tolerance, Ed, tolerance; be more diverse, more pluralistic,
more inclusive. JL
John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
Recovering Republican
"Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond,
and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain
the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin.
-Original Message-
From: Ed Brayton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 'Law & Religion issues for Law Academics'
Sent: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 10:18 pm
Subject: RE: Recent Threads / True Mental Health...
The first amendment applies to what the government can do, not
to what is acceptable on a private listserv. This list is for discussion
of religion and law, not for you to harangue and proselytize. Surely
that shouldn't need to be explained on this list of all places.
Ed Brayton
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ] On Behalf Of John Lofton
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 9:51 PM
To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health...
Chill, Ed, it's called free speech, the free exercise of
religion, First Amendment, remember? Be more tolerant, please...JL
John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
Recovering Republican
"Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond,
and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain
the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin.
-Original Message-
From: Ed Brayton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 'Law & Religion issues for Law Academics'
Sent: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 6:20 pm
Subject: RE: Recent Threads / True Mental Health...
Is this really the appropriate list for such preaching? I know
it damn well isn't the appropriate list to be declaring some members of
the list mentally ill.
Ed Brayton
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ] On Behalf Of John Lofton
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 5:20 PM
To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health...
Simple indeed -- if you have faith. And all those secular
shrinks have been doing a great job, right? In fact, unbelief IS a
mental illness since it denies reality, God's reality, the only reality
there is. We all live in God's world and are governed by His Law,
whether you believe this or not. God's Truth is not dependent upon the
belief of a man to be true. You don't have to believe in Hell to go
there.
John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
Recovering Republican
-Original Message-
From: Susan Freiman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Sent: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:38 am
Subject: Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health...
Wow. So simple. And just think how many doctors have been
struggling
for so long to help the mentally ill.
Susan
John Lofton wrote:
> True "mental health" is believing God when He says in Psalm
111:10:
> "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good
understanding
> have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth
for ever."
> Your gratuituous if-my-net-doesn't-catch-it-it-is-not-a-fish,
> people-I-disagree-with-are-crazy attitude is one more example
of why
> (literally) I thank God I never went to college.
> John Lofton, Editor, TheA
Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health...
Tolerance, Ed, tolerance; be more diverse, more pluralistic, more inclusive. JL John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: Ed Brayton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 'Law & Religion issues for Law Academics' Sent: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 10:18 pm Subject: RE: Recent Threads / True Mental Health... The first amendment applies to what the government can do, not to what is acceptable on a private listserv. This list is for discussion of religion and law, not for you to harangue and proselytize. Surely that shouldn't need to be explained on this list of all places. ? Ed Brayton ? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Lofton Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 9:51 PM To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health... Chill, Ed, it's called free speech, the free exercise of religion, First Amendment, remember? Be more tolerant, please...JL John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: Ed Brayton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 'Law & Religion issues for Law Academics' Sent: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 6:20 pm Subject: RE: Recent Threads / True Mental Health... Is this really the appropriate list for such preaching? I know it damn well isn't the appropriate list to be declaring some members of the list mentally ill. ? Ed Brayton ? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Lofton Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 5:20 PM To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health... Simple indeed -- if you have faith. And all those secular shrinks have been? doing a great job, right? In fact, unbelief IS a mental illness since it denies reality, God's reality, the only reality there is. We all live in God's world and are governed by His Law, whether you believe this or not. God's Truth is not dependent upon the belief of a man to be true. You don't have to believe in Hell to go there. John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican -Original Message- From: Susan Freiman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:38 am Subject: Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health... Wow. So simple. And just think how many doctors have been struggling for so long to help the mentally ill. Susan John Lofton wrote: > True "mental health" is believing God when He says in Psalm 111:10: > "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding > have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever." > Your gratuituous if-my-net-doesn't-catch-it-it-is-not-a-fish, > people-I-disagree-with-are-crazy attitude is one more example of why > (literally) I thank God I never went to college. > John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com > Recovering Republican > > "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and > blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the > kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > Sent: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:45 am > Subject: Re: Recent Threads > > I am certainly well aware that Christian Reconstructionists are a > small minority; however, the line between some of their beliefs and > those of some (please note both uses of the word some) members of the > Christian Right may not be particularly bright (more of a continuum). > Sort of like the line between believers who are truly mentally unwell > and believers who are somewhat unbalanced and believers who just have > problems. I would posit that the continuum regarding the mental health > of believers is similar to that of the population at large and/or that > of nonbelievers. > > Frances Paterson, J.D., Ed.D. > Professor > Department of Curriculum, Leadership, and Technology > College of Education > Valdosta State University > Valdosta, GA 31698-0090 > > > > > Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com > <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF0002000982>. > ___ > To post, send message to Religionlaw@l
Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health...
Chill, Ed, it's called free speech, the free exercise of religion, First Amendment, remember? Be more tolerant, please...JL John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: Ed Brayton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 'Law & Religion issues for Law Academics' Sent: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 6:20 pm Subject: RE: Recent Threads / True Mental Health... Is this really the appropriate list for such preaching? I know it damn well isn't the appropriate list to be declaring some members of the list mentally ill. ? Ed Brayton ? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Lofton Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 5:20 PM To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Subject: Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health... Simple indeed -- if you have faith. And all those secular shrinks have been? doing a great job, right? In fact, unbelief IS a mental illness since it denies reality, God's reality, the only reality there is. We all live in God's world and are governed by His Law, whether you believe this or not. God's Truth is not dependent upon the belief of a man to be true. You don't have to believe in Hell to go there. John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican -Original Message- From: Susan Freiman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:38 am Subject: Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health... Wow. So simple. And just think how many doctors have been struggling for so long to help the mentally ill. Susan John Lofton wrote: > True "mental health" is believing God when He says in Psalm 111:10: > "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding > have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever." > Your gratuituous if-my-net-doesn't-catch-it-it-is-not-a-fish, > people-I-disagree-with-are-crazy attitude is one more example of why > (literally) I thank God I never went to college. > John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com > Recovering Republican > > "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and > blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the > kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > Sent: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:45 am > Subject: Re: Recent Threads > > I am certainly well aware that Christian Reconstructionists are a > small minority; however, the line between some of their beliefs and > those of some (please note both uses of the word some) members of the > Christian Right may not be particularly bright (more of a continuum). > Sort of like the line between believers who are truly mentally unwell > and believers who are somewhat unbalanced and believers who just have > problems. I would posit that the continuum regarding the mental health > of believers is similar to that of the population at large and/or that > of nonbelievers. > > Frances Paterson, J.D., Ed.D. > Professor > Department of Curriculum, Leadership, and Technology > College of Education > Valdosta State University > Valdosta, GA 31698-0090 > > > > > Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com > <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF0002000982>. > ___ > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > <mailto:Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as > private. > Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people > can > read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the > messages to others. > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail > <http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?ncid=AOLAOF0002000970>! > > > ___ > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://li
Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health...
Simple indeed -- if you have faith. And all those secular shrinks have been? doing a great job, right? In fact, unbelief IS a mental illness since it denies reality, God's reality, the only reality there is. We all live in God's world and are governed by His Law, whether you believe this or not. God's Truth is not dependent upon the belief of a man to be true. You don't have to believe in Hell to go there. John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican -Original Message- From: Susan Freiman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:38 am Subject: Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health... Wow. So simple. And just think how many doctors have been struggling for so long to help the mentally ill. Susan John Lofton wrote: > True "mental health" is believing God when He says in Psalm 111:10: > "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding > have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever." > Your gratuituous if-my-net-doesn't-catch-it-it-is-not-a-fish, > people-I-disagree-with-are-crazy attitude is one more example of why > (literally) I thank God I never went to college. > John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com > Recovering Republican > > "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and > blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the > kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > Sent: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:45 am > Subject: Re: Recent Threads > > I am certainly well aware that Christian Reconstructionists are a > small minority; however, the line between some of their beliefs and > those of some (please note both uses of the word some) members of the > Christian Right may not be particularly bright (more of a continuum). > Sort of like the line between believers who are truly mentally unwell > and believers who are somewhat unbalanced and believers who just have > problems. I would posit that the continuum regarding the mental health > of believers is similar to that of the population at large and/or that > of nonbelievers. > > Frances Paterson, J.D., Ed.D. > Professor > Department of Curriculum, Leadership, and Technology > College of Education > Valdosta State University > Valdosta, GA 31698-0090 > > > > > Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com > <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF0002000982>. > ___ > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > <mailto:Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as > private. > Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people > can > read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the > messages to others. > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail > <http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?ncid=AOLAOF0002000970>! > > > ___ > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as > private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ___ To post, send message to Reli
Re: Recent Threads / "Proselytizing"
Of course not. The inventor of the Internet would NEVER do that because -- as he knows as a Baptist -- that would be whoring after false gods. John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: Will Linden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 11:55 am Subject: Re: Recent Threads / "Proselytizing" My point is that the actual use of "proselytize" is loaded with Finagle Factors to exclude identical BEHAVIOR which does not include the speaker's wrath. We never hear that "Al Gore came to town to PROSELYTIZE for the Democrats!" At 12:31 PM 9/6/07 -0400, you wrote: >Christians are commanded to "proselytize" by the Lord: Mattew 28:16-20 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Recent Threads / True Mental Health...
True "mental health" is believing God when He says in Psalm?111:10: "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever." Your gratuituous if-my-net-doesn't-catch-it-it-is-not-a-fish, people-I-disagree-with-are-crazy attitude is one more example of why (literally) I thank God I never went to college. John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Sent: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:45 am Subject: Re: Recent Threads I am certainly well aware that Christian Reconstructionists are a small minority; however, the line between some of their beliefs and those of some (please note both uses of the word?some) members of the Christian Right may not be particularly?bright (more of a continuum). Sort of like the line between believers who are truly mentally unwell and?believers who are somewhat?unbalanced and believers who just have problems. I would posit that the continuum regarding the mental health of believers is similar to that of the population at large and/or that of nonbelievers. ? Frances Paterson, J.D., Ed.D. Professor Department of Curriculum, Leadership, and Technology College of Education Valdosta State University Valdosta, GA 31698-0090 Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Recent Threads / "Proselytizing"
Christians are commanded to "proselytize" by the Lord: Mattew 28:16-20:??Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.?And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.?And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.?Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:?Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (KJV) ? John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: Will Linden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 11:00 am Subject: Re: Recent Threads On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, Douglas Laycock wrote: > Some Christians proselytize; some don't. Same with atheists. "Proseleytize" is one of those funny words, like "cult" and "superstition", which can only be applied to Somebody Else BY DEFINITION. We share, you preach, They proseleytize. Consequently, I have dropped it from my vocabulary. Will Linden [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ecben.net/ Magic Code: MAS/GD S++ W++ N+ PWM++ Ds/r+ A-> a++ C+ G- QO++ 666 Y ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
FYI, Might Want To See/Hear My Ron Paul Interview Which Touches On Law/Religion..
At TheAmericanView.com. John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Lofton / Re: Unfavorable feelings towards ideologies
So, what is the point here? -- that there is no such thing as truth; or that there is but it should not be told because truth causes some folks to feel "excluded"? John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. -Original Message- From: Steven Jamar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 1:03 pm Subject: Re: Unfavorable feelings towards ideologies I am pleased to see that Rick understands how one feels excluded when someone else claims a lock on the truth, like each of the three western religions does, and indeed, each of the multiple splinters from that selfsame tree. AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Lofton / Re: Unfavorable feelings towards ideologies
Questions like the one below (by James Maule) are useless, too abstract. Thus my answer: It depends. To what "views" and "opinions" are you alluding, specifically, since some are true and some are false? Me? I love to "swallow and regurgitate" views and opinions that are true. Oh, and when you "teach students how to think and analyze," you are teaching them what "to swallow and regurgitate" re: thinking and analyzing. “5. Isn't the goal of education, in any field (and not just law), to teach students how to think and analyze rather than to swallow and regurgitate views and opinions?” John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com Recovering Republican "Accursed is that peace of which revolt from God is the bond, and blessed are those contentions by which it is necessary to maintain the kingdom of Christ." -- John Calvin. AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
