Re: [Repeater-Builder] Syntor X Control Cable
YES! That is exactly what I am trying to do, please send away! -- Original Message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:11:54 -0400 Matt, What are you trying to do ? If you need a head (or two) I've got some spare ones. I converted a pair into a 6 meter repeater this winter, and have the control heads left over. I installed pots right inside the rigs, and a diode matrix for channel 1 selection. The mod el;eiminated the need for a head altogether. Is this what you're trying to do ? if so I may be able to send you a sketch of the entire modification. Bob From: Matt Krick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2004/04/12 Mon PM 03:31:08 EST To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Syntor X Control Cable Does any one have information on the value of pots and or capacitors used on a Syntor X control head for the volume and squelch signals? Or can somebody draw a sketch of what does what? I had a manual but some one disapeared with it. Thanks --Matt Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Audio Reproduction
--- Jeff DePolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Real modulator voltages have to start somewhere as a reference. If we take .1 volt P to P to deviate a PM exciter to 5KHz of deviation at a 1KHz audio tone, then it will take 1 volt P to P to drive the same modulator to 5KHz deviation at 100 Hz of audio. I think everyone will agree with this so far. You're limiting real modulators to varactor designs? Just because that's what *some* of our aging land mobile radios use doesn't make it the only kind of PM modulator. So, even theoretical PM falls apart when you get down to really low modulating frequencies. No, you're wrong, theoretical PM doesn't fall apart until you reach DC. Real-world implementations are what might fall apart. Math doesn't fall apart at low frequencies. For your varactor example I agree with your math Joe, and that it would be impractical to get 0.01 Hz response out a run-of-the-mill two-way mobile, but that's about as far as you can go without crossing the line between practical and theoretical. --- Jeff I guess I'm not following your logic. If you could get a PM exciter to produce a .01 Hz tone at 5 KHz deviation, the amount of audio required at 1 Hz would be 40 dB below that. The amount of audio required to modulate 5Khz deviation at 1KHz tone would be 60 dB below the 1 Hz level, or 100 dB below the .01 Hz level. This means that a modulator that could produce a .01 Hz tone at 5 KHz of modulation for 1 volt P to P would only require 10 micro volts P to P at a 1 KHz tone. Thats a very small level in anyone's book, and the SNR would be garbage, since most audio type amps only have 120 to 130 dB of maximum dynamic range. I'm not limiting the PM designs to varactor. Any true PM modulator has a 6 dB/octave curve, and therefore falls under this calculation. If the audio deviation doesn't increase by 6 dB/octave, you don't have a true PM. Joe __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Syntor X Control Cable
Hello Matt Both pot are 25K, audio taper. Radio J1 pin 14 _ / \ Radio J1 pin 3 / Volume (25K) \ / 3.3K \ Radio J1 pin 2 _/\/\/\/\_/ 3.3K Radio J1 pin 2 _/\/\/\/\_ / \ Radio J1 pin 28 / Squelch (25K) \ / Radio J1 pin 14 _\ For mode select tying pin 13 and 14 on J1 will select Mode 1. Hope this help, 73 de Michel VA2MAA [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Matt Krick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 3:31 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Syntor X Control Cable Does any one have information on the value of pots and or capacitors used on a Syntor X control head for the volume and squelch signals? Or can somebody draw a sketch of what does what? I had a manual but some one disapeared with it. Thanks --Matt Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Audio Reproduction
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Joe, I'd like to look at the above statement for just a minute. Since we're all in agreement that PM has a 6db per octave inherent pre-emp (that would be 20 dB per decade), let's look at the numbers in something other than a theoretical light- ie; real numbers. Real modulator voltages have to start somewhere as a reference. If we take .1 volt P to P to deviate a PM exciter to 5KHz of deviation at a 1KHz audio tone, then it will take 1 volt P to P to drive the same modulator to 5KHz deviation at 100 Hz of audio. I think everyone will agree with this so far. It would therefore take 10 volts P to P to modulate the 10Hz tone, and 100 volts P to P to modulate the 1 Hz tone. If we went down to .01 Hz (as mentioned above), it would take 10,000 volts P to P to modulate the exciter! Personally, I don't want to be working with such voltages We weren't going to delve into the topic that follows at this time because it'd be better to write a paper instead. But, since we're talking theory here, what the heck... Do you recall the relationship between acceleration and velocity? Acceleration is the derivitive of velocity. One way of looking at it is you wouldn't use the same kind of equipment to measure both quantities. A velocity meter tells you how fast the object is traveling. An acceleration meter responds only to a change in velocity. If the velocity is held constant, the acceleration meter reads zero. Yet, the object is moving, which makes it seem strange that the acceleration meter says zero. In radio, has your sense of symmetry ever made you wonder why we phase modulate and we frequency modulate, yet we don't phase detect and frequency detect? No? Well, okay, me neither - - until we noticed the differentiation term in the equation for the basic frequency demodulator. That means that a frequency discriminator is a differentiator! It doesn't respond to a change in phase, it responds to the rate of change in phase. It measures the acceleration, if you will, not the velocity. In the narrowband FM world, we always frequency-demodulate and we never phase-demodulate, right? That's because we can't phase demodulate without a reference phase for comparison, and the receiver has no way of obtaining that reference phase. So we frequency-demodulate instead. If we used phase detectors instead of discriminators, phase modulation would work all the way down to DC. I could shift the phase of my transmitted signal any amount, and your receiver would display exactly the amount of my phase change. Bottom line, and this'll be a bombshell for some: The whole issue of preemphasis and deemphasis is related to the fact that we use frequency discriminators to demodulate phase modulation! If we didn't criss-cross FM and PM as we do, we'd never talk about preemp and deemp. I don't know about others, but from a theoretical perspective, this is a whole new way of looking at things for me. I'll just bet all of this stuff exists somewhere in the form of dusty engineering notes, and that early radio engineers went through all of it before. It'd be fun to find it. 73, Bob, WA9FBO Again, I think you're off base with your supposition. You want us to believe that PM is why we Pre-emp FM. That's simply not the case. This is not supported by anything I have ever seen or read, only by you. Here is what I believe. Pre-emp is an easy way to get a few extra dB of SNR by tilting the audio response- thats it, plain and simple. Has nothing to do with PM, or the fact that early modulators were PM. It would be just as easy to de-emp the audio going into a PM exciter, and arrive at FM as it is to put a de-emp circuit in an FM RX. But, audio sounds better when the RX is de-empd. The squelch bursts aren't as bone rattling, since they consist of a large amount of higher frequency noise component. Since as FM gets weaker, the noise starts to increase at the higher end first- thats how a voter system works, or a noise squelch. You can often cause a radio to squelch when the voice audio still sounds pretty good, but there is enough noise at the higher freqs to activate the squelch. Reduction of annoying high freq noise on a demodulated FM signal is why we de-emphasize. Joe __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Audio Reproduction
Again, I think you're off base with your supposition. You want us to believe that PM is why we Pre-emp FM. That's simply not the case. This is not supported by anything I have ever seen or read, only by you. Not that I really care but look at this as to why PM was used for the FM transmitters in mobile communications. http://www.ieee.org/organizations/history_center/milestones_photos/police_radio.html Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Audio Reproduction
Well, if nothing else, that page shows that even back then, people used FM and PM interchangeably. In the beginning of the article, it touts their frequency modulated (FM) system, but later it states success of the system was due to choosing phase modulation. Bob (S-Com Bob), would it be a fair statement to say that traditionally, transmitters have generally been PM (either true PM or emphasized FM), but receivers have been FM all along? I base this on your last post. Joe M. Ralph Mowery wrote: Again, I think you're off base with your supposition. You want us to believe that PM is why we Pre-emp FM. That's simply not the case. This is not supported by anything I have ever seen or read, only by you. Not that I really care but look at this as to why PM was used for the FM transmitters in mobile communications. http://www.ieee.org/organizations/history_center/milestones_photos/police_radio.html Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Controller identification ?
Dave, Looked in my Centracom books and could not find anything on this board. I will look in my books at work and see what I can find. Charles Miller WD5EEH Sr. ET - City of Dallas - Communications - Original Message - From: Dave Dawson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 4:57 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Controller identification ? Hi All, Can anyone please give me any info on the attached logic board please i.e. pinouts and any other gems ? Any help appreciated...Cheers Dave UZN - Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly...Ping your friends today! Download Messenger Now Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] MICOR Pinouts
Comments below: Jim Cicirello wrote: Hello to Kevin and the Group: I have an excellent low split Micor VHF Base Station that I want to convert to 2 Meter. I have the contineous duty PA to go with it.I have read the excellent article from Kevin K3KKC on conversion using the Unified Chassis. Is there any references to the Intermittent Duty Stations like I have that uses the RIBBON from the backplane to the RX and TX Exciter? The pinouts are completely difference and I am looking for the best points for COR, Speaker, Etc. that are described for the Unified Chassis. I would presume that all the other mods such as the Control Module would be the same. Thanks in advance for the help. 73 JIM KA2AJH Hi Jim, What you have is a Non-Unified Chassis. The fact it is different is not because it's a intermittent duty station, but simply a different configuration. Motorola made intermittent and continuous duty models in both unified and non-unified chassis'. Notes for the Non-Unified Chassis Channel Element enable: For TX: Pin 15 of the exciter (T1 select) goes to pin 16 in the ribbon cable. This ultimately goes to the Remote Control Chassis (backplane board) to pin 14 on the DC Transfer Module contact pins. Grounding this pin with a jumper will allow F1 to work. Alternately, if keyed F1 is desired for the TX element, run a jumper wire from pin 2 of the Station Control backplane pin to pin 14 of the DC Transfer pins. Note: The DC Transfer module should be pulled out, as the only module needed is the Station Control Module. For RX: Pin 2 of the receiver RF - I-F board (R1 select) goes to pin 21 in the ribbon cable. This ultimately goes to the Remote Control Chassis to pin 21 of the DC transfer module. Pin 21 of the DC transfer module will need grounded at all times for the receiver to work. No DC Transfer module is needed. The rest of the conversion should be *basically* the same as what is written in the article. Realize that most if not all of the signals required to drive a controller can be found at the backplane where the Squelch Gate Module interfaces. As the article suggests, I don't care for the squelch gate module for my applications, but your situation may be different. Hope this helps... Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Audio Reproduction
Hi Joe, You want us to believe that PM is why we Pre-emp FM. Yup. It's a PM world, and you must make your FM equipment work in that world. That's simply not the case. This is not supported byanything I have ever seen or read, only by you. These areconclusions we drewfrom old documents from the 40s.We don't have anything firmerthan that, norhavewe seenanything that implies preemphasis was intentionally added to a flat systemby anystandards body. WhileI do agree that preemphasis improves intelligibility, again there is no evidence it was added with malice and forethought. I wouldrequest that if you, or anyone, has any written material at all that sheds light onhow PM and FM came to be, share it with the group. Frankly, we don't even know how 455 kHz became an IF standard - - but somebody, a long time ago, picked it and it stuck. These things happen. 73, Bob Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Repeater-Builder] Connected
What radio equipment do I need to connect two 25 Watt UHF repeaters together, at a distance of 10 miles mountain top to mountain top. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] MICOR Pinouts
Hi Kevin: Thanks for the information listed below on the hookup for the MICOR Non-Unified Chassis. I will be converting to your suggestions to include your squelch modification which I really want. Again thanks 73 JIM KA2AJH - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 10:57 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] MICOR Pinouts Comments below: Jim Cicirello wrote: Hello to Kevin and the Group: I have an excellent low split Micor VHF Base Station that I want to convert to 2 Meter. I have the contineous duty PA to go with it.I have read the excellent article from Kevin K3KKC on conversion using the Unified Chassis. Is there any references to the Intermittent Duty Stations like I have that uses the RIBBON from the backplane to the RX and TX Exciter? The pinouts are completely difference and I am looking for the best points for COR, Speaker, Etc. that are described for the Unified Chassis. I would presume that all the other mods such as the Control Module would be the same. Thanks in advance for the help. 73 JIM KA2AJH Hi Jim, What you have is a Non-Unified Chassis. The fact it is different is not because it's a intermittent duty station, but simply a different configuration. Motorola made intermittent and continuous duty models in both unified and non-unified chassis'. Notes for the Non-Unified Chassis Channel Element enable: For TX: Pin 15 of the exciter (T1 select) goes to pin 16 in the ribbon cable. This ultimately goes to the Remote Control Chassis (backplane board) to pin 14 on the DC Transfer Module contact pins. Grounding this pin with a jumper will allow F1 to work. Alternately, if keyed F1 is desired for the TX element, run a jumper wire from pin 2 of the Station Control backplane pin to pin 14 of the DC Transfer pins. Note: The DC Transfer module should be pulled out, as the only module needed is the Station Control Module. For RX: Pin 2 of the receiver RF - I-F board (R1 select) goes to pin 21 in the ribbon cable. This ultimately goes to the Remote Control Chassis to pin 21 of the DC transfer module. Pin 21 of the DC transfer module will need grounded at all times for the receiver to work. No DC Transfer module is needed. The rest of the conversion should be *basically* the same as what is written in the article. Realize that most if not all of the signals required to drive a controller can be found at the backplane where the Squelch Gate Module interfaces. As the article suggests, I don't care for the squelch gate module for my applications, but your situation may be different. Hope this helps... Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Motorola Transistor cross reference
Hello Neil I tried this site, but couldnt find anything. Thanks: Scott --- Neil McKie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Did you try: http://www.findchips.com Neil Scott k7rsw wrote: Does anyone have a cross for these transistors, or know where I can get the originals. M25C24 M2519 M2509 33P39 Thanks: Scott Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Audio Reproduction
Hi Joe, Bob (S-Com Bob), would it be a fair statement to say that traditionally,transmitters have generally been PM (either true PM or emphasized FM),but receivers have been FM all along? I base this on your last post. Yes, absolutely! To further state the case, assume that there are two paralleluniverses. In one universe, all hams use phase modulators and phase demodulators. The terms 'preemphasis' and 'deemphasis' areunheard of. Thewhole system has flat response. Since theirphase demodulators track theirphase modulators, thehams communicate via voice and data over their PM systems, all the way down to DC. They don't transmit "preemphasized audio" because they don't even know what that is. They've never seen it. You put flat audio in and you get flat audio out, including DC. In the other universe, all hams use frequency modulators and frequency demodulators. The terms 'preemphasis' and 'deemphasis' areunheard of. The wholesystem hasflat response. The hams communicate via voice and data, all the way down to DC. One day, a rip occurs in the space/time fabricand an FM-equipped ham hears a PM transmission from the other universe. It sounds tinny. Why? Becausethe FM guy's frequencydemodulator (discriminator) is a differentiator. It pre-emphasizes the PM transmissions, so hehears attenuated lows and emphasized highs. So, which end is responsible for the tilt? Is the FMham correct in saying that the PM guy is transmitting a 'nonstandard' signal with preemphasis? In an FM universe, PM seems strange because it has atilt to its response. Butthe PM ham has never even heard of preemphasis, and has certainly never had to use it. He assumesthe FM ham'sreceiver isresponsible for thethe tilting. After all,a frequency demodulator isn'tsensitive to the phase of the incoming signal, it's sensitive to therate of change of the phase, so the FM ham must beusing a wierd receiver. We live in both universes. We'vedecided that we willalways transmit PM - - it doesn't matter whetherit comes from a PM transmitter or an FM transmitter with preemphasis, it's PM mathematically.And, we've decided thatwe willalways receive with a frequency demodulator. Because we are crossing the two systems, we will always have to deal with the existance of preemphasisand deemphasis. It's neither good nor bad, it just is. But when you look at the pictureas described above, it sort ofnullifies what all of us have been saying for a long time - - that preemphasis is a natural result of phase modulation. No, preemphasisresults fromdemodulating PM with a frequency demodulator. It seems like preemphasis ought to be a natural resultof PM, but that'sbecausewe only think in terms of discriminators.After all, allof our receivers and service monitorshave them and no one has a phase detector. But it might be good to keep the big picture in mind during some of these theoretical discussions. 73, Bob Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Connected
1. A Ezlink Plus from Rayfield Communications Inc. (Available from IDA) 2. A pair of mobile radio's that can handle the duty cycle of the pair of repeaters. 3. A site in range of both repeater sites. 4 Power supply ant's cables ect. wayne - Original Message - From: Rich [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 11:22 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Connected What radio equipment do I need to connect two 25 Watt UHF repeaters together, at a distance of 10 miles mountain top to mountain top. SNIP Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Controller identification ?
Hi Dave, That unit was made by a company called "Centracom" in Derby in the UK. I haven't got any info on it but as far as I am aware the company does still exist. Regards Paul G6LSD -Original Message-From: Dave Dawson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 12 April 2004 10:58To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comSubject: [Repeater-Builder] Controller identification ? Hi All, Can anyone please give me any info on the attached logic board please i.e. pinouts and any other gems ? Any help appreciated...Cheers Dave UZN Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Syntor X Control Cable
I am interested also, I have 3 of these converted to 920 and was going to dig thru stuff at dayton - I will go anyway but this will give me more time to harass a wider area of the fly market. Matt Krick wrote: YES! That is exactly what I am trying to do, please send away! -- Original Message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:11:54 -0400 Matt, What are you trying to do ? If you need a head (or two) I've got some spare ones. I converted a pair into a 6 meter repeater this winter, and have the control heads left over. I installed pots right inside the rigs, and a diode matrix for channel 1 selection. The mod el;eiminated the need for a head altogether. Is this what you're trying to do ? if so I may be able to send you a sketch of the entire modification. Bob Does any one have information on the value of pots and or capacitors used on a Syntor X control head for the volume and squelch signals? Or can somebody draw a sketch of what does what? I had a manual but some one disapeared with it. Thanks --Matt -- 73...Clark Beckman N8PZD Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Connected
2 continuos duty uhf radios, 2 feedline runs, 2 beam style antennas, 2 power supplies, I think I would try setting the output power at 5-7 watts first and a open radio port on each end that can be configured to operate as you would desire, probably 2 ctcss detectors so either one knows when the sister has a user and when it is ok to use the system. Rich wrote: What radio equipment do I need to connect two 25 Watt UHF repeaters together, at a distance of 10 miles mountain top to mountain top. -- 73...Clark Beckman N8PZD Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] repeater control
Of course, you're likely to key up the adjacent repeater. Make sure you ID when you transmit on the frequency 5 or 10 kHz off. Joe M. Virden Clark Beckman wrote: A good way to reset one that has gotten this is use a big signal 5 or 10kc low and fool the agc limiter circuit, the cas will drop and come back verifying weak signal - this works with the no-timer method also if you have a reset tone running. Bob Dengler wrote: Someone inevitably locks their TX on during the event. Net control most of the field units can usually talk over the locked unit, since it's almost always an HT strapped to the belt putting a weak signal into the repeater. If the TOT is left on the system times out, the net is shut down. Bob NO6B Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Audio Reproduction
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To further state the case, assume that there are two parallel universes. Que Star Trek theme music... ;- In one universe, all hams use phase modulators and phase demodulators. The terms 'preemphasis' and 'deemphasis' are unheard of. The whole system has flat response. Since their phase demodulators track their phase modulators, the hams communicate via voice and data over their PM systems, all the way down to DC. They don't transmit preemphasized audio because they don't even know what that is. They've never seen it. You put flat audio in and you get flat audio out, including DC. Actually, they would be transmitting pre-emphasized audio, as the audio component would multiply every octave for the same input voltage. Yes, it would be done transparent to them, but it would still exist. It has to since the PM has natural emphasis. 1V input at 1000 Hz would result in more deviation than 1V input at 500 Hz. So, phase demodulators have natural deemphasis, right? In the other universe, This would be our universe in the case of 'flat audio repeaters'. :-) all hams use frequency modulators and frequency demodulators. The terms 'preemphasis' and 'deemphasis' are unheard of. The whole system has flat response. The hams communicate via voice and data, all the way down to DC. BUT, in this universe, the level of the audio is the same as long as the voltage input remains the same. IOW: The frequency doesn't matter. 1V of input at 100 Hz is the same level as 1V input at 1000 Hz Both will get you 3 kHz of deviation. In this case, there really is no preemphasis. Could you call this universe the universe of True FM??? (ducking) One day, a rip occurs in the space/time fabric and an FM-equipped ham hears a PM transmission from the other universe. It sounds tinny. Why? Because the FM guy's frequency demodulator (discriminator) is a differentiator. It pre-emphasizes the PM transmissions, so he hears attenuated lows and emphasized highs. So, which end is responsible for the tilt? for the reasons I mentioned above, the PM guys are responsible. They HAVE to be. If for no other reason, because PM is Bad. Bad bad bad. ;- Seriously. It is the PM's fault due to the natural preemphasis. That universe may not realize it, but it does exist. Ignorance of the physical laws is no excuse. But the PM ham has never even heard of preemphasis, and has certainly never had to use it. He assumes the FM ham's receiver is responsible for the the tilting. After all, a frequency demodulator isn't sensitive to the phase of the incoming signal, it's sensitive to the rate of change of the phase, so the FM ham must be using a wierd receiver. And to the PM guys, the FM users all sound bassey. That's because of the (assumed) natural deemphasis of the phase demodulator. We live in both universes. We've decided that we will always transmit PM - - it doesn't matter whether it comes from a PM transmitter or an FM transmitter with preemphasis, it's PM mathematically. And, we've decided that we will always receive with a frequency demodulator. True, except for 'flat audio repeaters'. They will work exactly the same in either universe, as there is no pre-emphasis, de-emphasis, or sub-space-emphasis in the repeater at all. The technology will seem weird, but it will pass both equally well. Because we are crossing the two systems, we will always have to deal with the existance of preemphasis and deemphasis. See last comments. :-) Lotsa repeaters don't have de-emph or pre-emph. They just pass what is received. If it's a PM format signal, it comes out a PM format signal. If FM, it's FM. It's neither good nor bad, it just is. Naaa... PM is bad. Pure evil. ;-P But when you look at the picture as described above, it sort of nullifies what all of us have been saying for a long time - - that preemphasis is a natural result of phase modulation. No, preemphasis results from demodulating PM with a frequency demodulator. An interesting theory which nullifies most of what I said above. Is that really true, or is the pre-emphasis really existing in the PM, and it would just be countered by a natural deemphasis in the Phase Demodulator? It seems like preemphasis ought to be a natural result of PM, but that's because we only think in terms of discriminators. After all, all of our receivers and service monitors have them and no one has a phase detector. But it might be good to keep the big picture in mind during some of these theoretical discussions. 73, Bob So, how is one to say that PM isn't naturally pre-emphasized and naturally de-emphasized in a phase demodulator? How can you measure the effects of each in the RF medium? After all, if you can't use a phase demodulator or a frequency demodulator to test this, since each would be 'biased' (no pun intended). OK. One last thing for this universe. Let's assume that it IS the frequency demodulator that adds the pre-emphasis to the
Re: [Repeater-Builder] the mobile micor
At 01:49 PM 4/12/04 -0400, you wrote: power supply model number is TPN1186A You didn't say that it was a micor supply earlier - just that it was a power supply in it that is capable of out putting 13.1 to 16.3 v at 36a - and I assumed that it was a non-moto supply. and yes there is a couple of regulated out puts and one will go to the tmd700 mobile the other to the controller. so the micors where going to run off the pa connector which is not regulated. OK, so the Kenwood and the controller is protected. Forget what I said earlier - you'll be fine. Mike WA6ILQ - Original Message - From: Marvin K. Hoffman To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 1:13 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] the mobile micor I have seen a Micor mobile hooked to an Astron power supply that went whacko and for an indeterminate period was running 16 volts from the p.s. with no apparent damage to the Micor. On the other hand, I saw one in a police car in which the voltage regulator in the alternator went whacko and fried everything (battery, bulbs, radio, electronic siren) when the alternator voltage went to 25 volts at high engine r.p.m.'s. during a rather long pursuit. Marv, WA4NC Mike Morris WA6ILQ wrote: At 10:14 AM 4/12/04 -0400, you wrote: any one know what the max dc volts a micor can take before it cooks? I have a motorola cabinet not sure from what but it has a power supply in it that is capable of out putting 13.1 to 16.3 v at 36a. I just want to be sure that I won't cook the repeater and the control micor mobile. yes I will have two micors one will be a simplex control radio the other will be duplexed for the repeater I will also have a tmd 700 for a frequency agile link radio. plus a rc 210 all runing off this power supply. If you are running mobiles as a repeater system plus other radios that expect 13.8v I'd set it to 13.8v and use heavy wire to a power distribution buss that feeds the radios, but in any case no more than 14.0 Mike WA6ILQ Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Audio Reproduction
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Joe, You want us to believe that PM is why we Pre-emp FM. Yup. It's a PM world, and you must make your FM equipment work in that world. That's simply not the case. This is not supported by anything I have ever seen or read, only by you. These are conclusions we drew from old documents from the 40s. We don't have anything firmer than that, nor have we seen anything that implies preemphasis was intentionally added to a flat system by any standards body. While I do agree that preemphasis improves intelligibility, again there is no evidence it was added with malice and forethought. I would request that if you, or anyone, has any written material at all that sheds light on how PM and FM came to be, share it with the group. Frankly, we don't even know how 455 kHz became an IF standard - - but somebody, a long time ago, picked it and it stuck. These things happen. 73, Bob This is an interesting article: http://www.repeater-builder.com/rbtip/fmtheorydiscussion.html He suggests that de-emph came first to get around the rising noise of an FM receiver. In any case, I think most people agree that it was done for noise control purposes, which it does do well. If not, it would have been abandoned. Most forms of FM use some sort of pre/de emp on the signal, whether it's broadcast FM, land mobile, FM TV, or analog FM microwave. In analog microwave, a lot of times you have the choice of pre-emp or not, and the pre-emp doesn't kick in until the last decade or so. In FM broadcast the pre-emp starts at about 2K, which is about a decade below the FM upper limit. On land mobile, the pre-emp is only specified from 300 to 3000, or about 1 decade. Pre and de-emphasis in any system doesn't run from DC to the upper limit- there is some upper and lower cut off frequency. Regarding links or repeaters with flat audio: I think that the only place the audio should be pre or de emped is in the end users radio, or in items that communicate as an end user (phone patches, voice synthesizers, etc.) There is no need to pre and de emp at a repeater, and especially no good reason for doing it on links. If you look how an FM stereo station gets it's audio to the TX site, through an STL, all of the processing, clipping, pre-emp, etc is at the studio. This pre-emped composite audio is then fed to a 900 MHz STL, containing FM and it's stereo and other subcarriers. At the STL RX site, raw baseband audio from the STL goes right to the FM mod- no de-emp or other processing, other than a LPF at 70KHz or so, depending on subcarriers. If the signal has to go through multiple hops, it goes as-is, without pre or de emping at each intermediate site. The best sounding analog microwave systems use IF repeating, they don't even break the signal down to baseband. If we wanted really true simplex sounding audio, that would be the way to do it, since we just take the users input frequency and move it to the output channel. This would be impractical for repeaters, but it could be implemented in point to point links that had multiple hops, and didn't need mod/demod at each site to accomodate users. Joe __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Connected
Hi, If this if for amateur use, there is a much easier way. You can use one simplex intermittent duty radio at one end connected to the link port of a controller at that site. Nothing needs installed at the other site . Remote base linking is popular and economical. For the hop suggested, an Icom IC-4AT running a 200 mW on a rubber duck would be fine. I suggest the reading of this: http://www.repeater-builder.com/rbtip/repeaterlinking.html Kevin Virden Clark Beckman wrote: 2 continuos duty uhf radios, 2 feedline runs, 2 beam style antennas, 2 power supplies, I think I would try setting the output power at 5-7 watts first and a open radio port on each end that can be configured to operate as you would desire, probably 2 ctcss detectors so either one knows when the sister has a user and when it is ok to use the system. Rich wrote: What radio equipment do I need to connect two 25 Watt UHF repeaters together, at a distance of 10 miles mountain top to mountain top. Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Repeater-Builder] COM 3 Service Monitor
Gday all A little off topic sorry.But does anyone have the user manual for a com 3 service monitor.Need a copy.Willing to pay associated costs etc if not in electronic form. Have tried ramsey But no response as yet?? Regards Rod Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] COM 3 Service Monitor
Hey Rod, I have two comm.-3's and both books are different. One is below ser. number 7,000 and one above. If you tell me if you are above or below 7,000 I can make you a copy if the right one. 73 Russ, W3CH ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - Original Message - From: rodrj2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 8:05 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] COM 3 Service Monitor Gday all A little off topic sorry.But does anyone have the user manual for a com 3 service monitor.Need a copy.Willing to pay associated costs etc if not in electronic form. Have tried ramsey But no response as yet?? Regards Rod Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Audio Reproduction
It was just over a year ago that there was a long thread about FM and PM. Someone posted a link to a short magazine article (Ham Radio, it seems it was, but not sure) that shed light on the fact that PM was the first popular method of modulation for land mobile use. I've searched the archives of this list, but could not find it back. Maybe someone remembers and could re-post it?? Laryn K8TVZ --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Joe, You want us to believe that PM is why we Pre-emp FM. Yup. It's a PM world, and you must make your FM equipment work in that world. That's simply not the case. This is not supported by anything I have ever seen or read, only by you. These are conclusions we drew from old documents from the 40s. We don't have anything firmer than that, nor have we seen anything that implies preemphasis was intentionally added to a flat system by any standards body. While I do agree that preemphasis improves intelligibility, again there is no evidence it was added with malice and forethought. I would request that if you, or anyone, has any written material at all that sheds light on how PM and FM came to be, share it with the group. Frankly, we don't even know how 455 kHz became an IF standard - - but somebody, a long time ago, picked it and it stuck. These things happen. 73, Bob Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Connected
Depends on the frequencies involved ... Neil Rich wrote: What radio equipment do I need to connect two 25 Watt UHF repeaters together, at a distance of 10 miles mountain top to mountain top. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] the mobile micor
does anyone know what the digi key part number for the connector that would plug up to this regulatedpart of this power supply? TPN1186A Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Repeater-Builder] Infomation Needed
I have a Micor or Mitrek Repeater or what i think is a repeater.Here the Model number can anyone tell me what it is Model Number C73RTB/3103CM Bobby/N2BR Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Infomation Needed
At 04:07 PM 4/13/2004 -, you wrote: I have a Micor or Mitrek Repeater or what i think is a repeater.Here the Model number can anyone tell me what it is Model Number C73RTB/3103CM ---Let's see how good my memory is... It's a Micor VHF, 110 watt, PL'd (not DPL) base station. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm too far off :-) Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Infomation Needed
What is a Micor PL'D DPL ? Bobby/N2BR --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Ken Arck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 04:07 PM 4/13/2004 -, you wrote: I have a Micor or Mitrek Repeater or what i think is a repeater.Here the Model number can anyone tell me what it is Model Number C73RTB/3103CM ---Let's see how good my memory is... It's a Micor VHF, 110 watt, PL'd (not DPL) base station. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm too far off :-) Ken --- --- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Infomation Needed
Also is this a repeater or can it be converted to a repeater ? Bobby/N2BR --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Ken Arck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 04:07 PM 4/13/2004 -, you wrote: I have a Micor or Mitrek Repeater or what i think is a repeater.Here the Model number can anyone tell me what it is Model Number C73RTB/3103CM ---Let's see how good my memory is... It's a Micor VHF, 110 watt, PL'd (not DPL) base station. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm too far off :-) Ken --- --- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Infomation Needed
He stated it was conventional tone PL equipped, and not Digital PL equipped. Ron -WB8ERB- -Original Message- From: Bob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 12:46 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Infomation Needed What is a Micor PL'D DPL ? Bobby/N2BR --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Ken Arck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 04:07 PM 4/13/2004 -, you wrote: I have a Micor or Mitrek Repeater or what i think is a repeater.Here the Model number can anyone tell me what it is Model Number C73RTB/3103CM ---Let's see how good my memory is... It's a Micor VHF, 110 watt, PL'd (not DPL) base station. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm too far off :-) Ken --- --- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Infomation Needed
At 04:48 PM 4/13/2004 -, you wrote: Also is this a repeater or can it be converted to a repeater ? ---It is a base station but can easily be converted to a repeater. See http://www.repeater-builder.com/rbtip/micor-index.html What is a Micor PL'D DPL ? ---Micor is the model series of the radio. PL refers to Motorola's trademark name for CTCSS (Continuous Tone Coded Squelch System). DPL refers to Motorola's trademark name for Digital Private Line. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Connected
As I suggested in an earlier e-mail, depends on the frequencies you are using for your repeaters. Neil Kevin Custer wrote: Hi, If this if for amateur use, there is a much easier way. You can use one simplex intermittent duty radio at one end connected to the link port of a controller at that site. Nothing needs installed at the other site . Remote base linking is popular and economical. For the hop suggested, an Icom IC-4AT running a 200 mW on a rubber duck would be fine. I suggest the reading of this: http://www.repeater-builder.com/rbtip/repeaterlinking.html Kevin Virden Clark Beckman wrote: 2 continuos duty uhf radios, 2 feedline runs, 2 beam style antennas, 2 power supplies, I think I would try setting the output power at 5-7 watts first and a open radio port on each end that can be configured to operate as you would desire, probably 2 ctcss detectors so either one knows when the sister has a user and when it is ok to use the system. Rich wrote: What radio equipment do I need to connect two 25 Watt UHF repeaters together, at a distance of 10 miles mountain top to mountain top. --- Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] the mobile micor
At 4/12/2004 10:49 PM, you wrote: 13.2 is about as high as you should set anything, in vehicles with 13.8 V is the standard. 13.2 V will definitely be easier on the equipment, but is by no means an upper limit. 13.8-14.0 there is typically a 20 ft cable running from the battery to the radio mount and the voltage drops off in that length. You should build a crowbar circuit so if the voltage climbs above 13.6 it turns off or blows a fast acting fuse to protect the equipment See above; you'll be blowing fuses all day. Most commercial ham gear is spec'd to run up to or near 16 V. This is probably why many power supplies with built-in OVP are set to trip same at 16 V. Bob NO6B Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] repeater control
At 4/12/2004 10:55 PM, you wrote: A good way to reset one that has gotten this is use a big signal 5 or 10kc low and fool the agc limiter circuit Yes it will cause a reset but it has nothing to do with the limiter. , the cas will drop and come back verifying weak signal - this works with the no-timer method also if you have a reset tone running. Neither net control nor the field units have time to do this in the middle of providing event communications. Better to just put the repeater in a repeat-no-matter-what mode. In fact, we used to put the CTCSS access repeaters in carrier squelch for the event until the low-level garbage got to the point where we just couldn't do that anymore. Then we told the volunteers they had to get CTCSS radios or we couldn't use their services anymore. AFAIK they all got toned. The stuck PTTs are impossible to totally eliminate. One year it rained we had a couple of boom mic PTT switches short out. Bob NO6B Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Infomation Needed
C - Compa cabinet - either 30 or 41 high 7 - 110 Watts out - Intermittent duty 3 - 136 - 174 MHz range R - R Series (Micor) Receiver T - T Series (Micor) Transmitter B - Base or repeater depending on the config from the factory 3 - CTCSS - Private Line operation 1 - Narrow band - +/- 5 kHz deviation 0 - factory 1 freq transmit / 1 freq receive 3 - ?? C - C Series of manufacture M - May have come with a microphone as a base station. What plug-in cards are on the control shelf? Neil - WA6KLA Bob wrote: I have a Micor or Mitrek Repeater or what i think is a repeater.Here the Model number can anyone tell me what it is Model Number C73RTB/3103CM Bobby/N2BR Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Infomation Needed
... slightly ... ;) Neil Ken Arck wrote: At 04:07 PM 4/13/2004 -, you wrote: I have a Micor or Mitrek Repeater or what i think is a repeater. Here the Model number can anyone tell me what it is Model Number C73RTB/3103CM ---Let's see how good my memory is... It's a Micor VHF, 110 watt, PL'd (not DPL) base station. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm too far off :-) Ken - President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Infomation Needed
PL = sub-audible tone ... frequently referred to as PL in the repeater group circles. DPL = Digital Private Line - a more complicated form of the PL mentioned above. Bob wrote: What is a Micor PL'D DPL ? Bobby/N2BR --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Ken Arck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 04:07 PM 4/13/2004 -, you wrote: I have a Micor or Mitrek Repeater or what i think is a repeater.Here the Model number can anyone tell me what it is Model Number C73RTB/3103CM ---Let's see how good my memory is... It's a Micor VHF, 110 watt, PL'd (not DPL) base station. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm too far off :-) Ken --- --- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Audio Reproduction
Hi Joe, In one universe, all hams use phase modulators and phase demodulators. The terms 'preemphasis' and 'deemphasis' are unheard of. The whole system has flat response. Since their phase demodulators track their phase modulators, the hams communicate via voice and data over their PM systems, all the way down to DC. They don't transmit "preemphasized audio" because they don't even know what that is. They've never seen it. You put flat audio in and you get flat audio out, including DC.Actually, they would be transmitting pre-emphasized audio, as the audiocomponent would multiply every octave for the same input voltage. Until a few days ago, I would have agreed. Why do we all say that the response of a PM systemrises 6 dB per octave? Because that's what we get out of ourdiscriminators. Butwe're using a frequency demodulator to demodulate phase modulation, and that's where therising response comes from. That's the wholepoint. Frankly,we're allso used to FM demodulators that we don't even know what a PM demodulatorlooks like. It's called a phase detector, and while we can easily create one on the bench, we can't use it in radio systems. But the truth is,if we all usedphase detectors,we'd never seepreemphasized audio. So, which end is responsible for the tilt?for the reasons I mentioned above, the PM guys are responsible. TheyHAVE to be. If for no other reason, because PM is Bad. Bad bad bad. ;- So I've heard... :-) But when you look at the picture as described above, it sort of nullifies what all of us have been saying for a long time - - that preemphasis is a natural result of phase modulation. No, preemphasis results from demodulating PM with a frequency demodulator.An interesting theory which nullifies most of what I said above. Is thatreally true, or is the pre-emphasis really existing in the PM, and itwould just be countered by a natural deemphasis in the PhaseDemodulator? The math is on the side of the former.One of myold college texts is Communications Circuits: Analysis and Design by Clarke-Hess. On page 578 there is a block diagram of a basic frequency demodulator, and it shows a differentiation network ahead of an envelope demodulator. The d/dt term is definitely there, and that's where the preemphasis comes from. I know all of this looks like pure heresy, but when you realize that 100% of all demodulators out there are frequency demodulators, it makes sense that we would thinkPM has "natural preemphasis" - - we see it 100 times out of 100 on our service monitors and receivers. But when we realize that weare always looking at both PM and FM withan FM detector, the puzzle seems to come together a bit more. 73, Bob Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Audio Reproduction
Hi Laryn, It was just over a year ago that there was a long thread about FM and PM. Someone posted a link to a short magazine article (Ham Radio, it seems it was, but not sure) that shed light on the fact that PM was the first popular method of modulation for land mobile use. I've searched the archives of this list, but could not find it back. In the June 1970 issue of Ham Radio, there was a very good article called "Modulation Standards for VHF FM". Maybe that's what you're thinking of, but I don't know where it's posted. 73, Bob Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Audio Reproduction
Hi Joe, This is an interesting article:http://www.repeater-builder.com/rbtip/fmtheorydiscussion.htmlHe suggests that de-emph came first to get around therising noise of an FM receiver. In any case, I thinkmost people agree that it was done for noise controlpurposes, which it does do well. If not, it would havebeen abandoned. Idisagreebecause there is no possible way to abandon it. The author says this: In the early days of FM, there were no varactor diodes so it was difficult, at best, to produce a direct FM modulator. PM modulation was, however, easy to achieve which is the reason that it was the "standard". I agree completely. So if PM is the standard, and it createspreemphasis onan FM demodulator, then you have no choice but to deemphasize if you want to recover flat audio. It's not like the designersever had a choice. Regarding links or repeaters with flat audio: I thinkthat the only place the audio should be pre or deemped is in the end users radio, or in items thatcommunicate as an end user (phone patches, voicesynthesizers, etc.) There is no need to pre and de empat a repeater, and especially no good reason for doingit on links. I'm rather surprised, then, that you pointed outthe article. At the end of the last paragraph, theauthor says what I havemaintained for years: I am not a believer in pulling receiver audio off the discriminator and directly into a "flat" transmitter. That originated in the ham circles and I don't believe that it will produce audio any better than "doing it right the first time"! Let the pre-emphasis and de-emphasis circuits do their job (it really results in a fairly flat response) and pay attention to the clipping levels. You'll have great audio and you will keep your deviation within spec, which is mandatory in today's FM bands. Actually, if we could get everyone to adjust their repeater deviation to 4 kHz, a lot of adjacent channel problems would be reduced to acceptable levels. Just a thought.. Thank you, Paul, K3VIX (a26-year Motorola veteran designer). 73, Bob Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Repeater-Builder] Hamtronics exciter
Hi Kevin, Wanted to get back to you about a discontinued thread. You wrote: Hamtronics mentions in their manual for the TA-51 (a little PM exciter they have built and sold for years) that a full 5 kc of deviation *may not* be possible without distortion because the multiplication factor is only 4 times with their 6 meter exciter. (Read page 7 of the following manual):http://www.hamtronics.com/pdf/inst%20manuals/TA51.pdf Virgil mentioned thathe had looked at the manual and noted that the TA-51 uses RC phase modulation. A-ha! The light went on. You can only get 90 degrees of phase shift max with an RC circuit.Had they used an LC phase modulator, they would have gotten 180 degrees max. That's why the deviation is low with that unit. They don't have much deviationto start with, and as you say, if it isn'tmultiplieda lot, it'llbe low at the final freq. 73, Bob Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
