Re: [Repeater-Builder] Crystal Phase Noise?
Hi Scott Thanks for the reply Kevin- ---Subject repeaters will have to remain unnamed as I currently enjoy a good relationship with their point of origin and I want very much to keep the situation that way. I will say however that transmitter circuit wise , they are esentially the same as those produced by Spectrum and I have a couple of them too. I other words, a simple crystal oscillator (with an audio modulated varicap modulating the crystal capacitance) followed by a multiplyer string and final amplifier-ie, no PLL's. The difference in the modulation (FM) noise ofof the subject repeaters and othersis noticable via a monitoring receiver-some repeaters are quieter than others and I'm not talking about RF quietingI'm talking about differences in audible background hiss assuming a "full quieting" strong RF signal. Do you have any ideas as to where the "hiss" modulationmight becoming from. I think it is random phase noise in the crystal oscillator but I can't point at the problem part or design problem and am wondering if the crystal it's self could be my noise source. Can you take a listen (maybe with a HF receiver) and see if the oscillator is noisy? Realize that it will be less noisy by the amount of multiplication in the radio, but comparing it with a properly working unit will show you if the problem is at the oscillator level or not. If not, successive stages can be monitored likewise to see if the problem raises in latter stages. I know in some models of the Spectrum exciter, the varactor is biased to around 4 volts. Modulation is imposed upon the bias through a capacitor. If the bias provided is not stable or quiet, the effects you are hearing could be the result of such instability. Looking closely with a scope around the varactor and its biasing should tell you if this is a problem. As I remember, quiescent bias was set with a variable resistor, which may have become noisy. Skipp has suggested that in rare cases the crystal itself can be noisy, but his case history suggests a problem in possibly 1 in 10-15 units, which you seem be have a problem more common than that. Let us know how you make out. Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.
Joe, youre right about the error in PPM. BUT taking a crystal and deviding it also devides the error in PPM by the same amount and multiply it you Multiply by the same factor so the reletive error is the same in PPM. A 12 MHZ crystal with a 2PPM error will be off by 24 Hz. Take that same crystal and multiply it by 12 ...(GE) and the error is still 2ppm..but the error freq is now 12 * 24 or 288 HZ or 144000288Hz In the GE PLL exciter the VCO is devided and compaired to the ICOM and the error voltage is fed back to the VCO so the Deviated Crystal freq basically whips the VCO around to deviate it...THE VCO output tracks the ICOM freq by way of the Error voltage generated in the comparitor. Simple, AYE? That is why I use A 10 MHZ output from a GPS as a time base for my Direct Digital Synth. for my MASTRII. I take the 10 MHz Double it and double it again to get 40 Mhz and use the DDS to set the freq. The DDS has a 32 bit freq word and I can set the frequency by .2 Hz increments that way,I can get dead on freq that way. 73 AC0Y --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Joe Montierth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The frequency stability of any transmitter is only as good as it's reference oscillator (be that a PLL or a multiplied crystal)- dividing or multiplying the frequency will not change that constant (in PPM). It doesn't matter if you use a 100KHz, 1MHz, 10MHz or 100MHz reference frequency, if they are all the same in PPM. You don't somehow get better stability by dividing the frequency, and you don't get worse by multiplying the frequency. It is what it is. Joe --- Wade Lake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin, I now realize the mistake I was making in looking at this. I am used to seeing newer PLL's with a much higher reference oscillator frequency and having a divider in the reference side before the Phase Comparator. In that case the stability does improve over that of the reference oscillator, but that obviously does not apply here. Sorry, I will shut up now. Wade - KR7K - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service. Wade, If the PLL reference from the crystal is X3, and the VCO sample has been divided by 4, what is the product of 3 times 4? The answer is 12. If the transmitter was any more stable in frequency than the reference, shouldn't one think the stated frequency stability would be better than 2 PPM or 5 PPM, which is the stability of the ICOM itself? Many times the manual states the VCO is locked to the 12th multiple of the ICOM. This means the output of the GE PLL exciter will have the stability of the ICOM, times 12, period. Kevin Custer Wade Lake wrote: I stand corrected, in part anyway. In this GE radio the deviation is indeed at a divide by 12 from the output. This is why I said usually, I am not familiar with the intricate details of all radios. Especially GE's, I was a Motorola tech for quite a few years. I will leave the GE's to others like you who are more familiar with their inner workings. However, even in this particular radio, I noticed the PLL circuit uses a X3 from the original ICOM freq as the PLL reference. This is made obvious by the divide by 4 fed back from the output of the VCO. So even though the PLL circuit here is not more stable by a factor of 12, as I initially stated, it theoretically should be more stable by a factor of 4. This does not appy to deviation in this case but it will most definately apply to frequency drift. My 2 and a half cents worth. Wade - KR7K - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service. Hi Wade, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your stability theory on the GE Mastr II PLL high-band exciter. If you refer to the PDF manual for the PLL exciter: http://www.repeater-builder.com/ge/lbi-library/lbi-30398n.pdf You will see under the Description the exciter utilizes the 12th multiple of the FM ICOM to lock the VCO on frequency. It goes into more detail about this in the Circuit Analysis section of the same manual. So, the FM ICOM's multiplication certainly does factor into the stability of the PLL exciter, and one can generalize it has the same frequency stability as its multiplier counterpart. In addition, the modulation of the PLL exciter is produced in the crystal reference (FM ICOM) as well, and is also multiplied up to the desired deviation. Since the time constant of the Lead/Lag filter allows for
[Repeater-Builder] Re: GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciterin duplex service.
Here is a Fact, The GE PLL exciter is about 20db quieter than a multiplied exciter, very likely for the reason stated below. Think about it this way. To multiply a crystal frequency you have to have harmonics.(noise)..okay you multiply that and get even more noise..well you amplify each time and get even better noise. By the time you multiply the origonal frequency 12 times (GE) you have a strong carrier at the required frequency with all kinds of noise, it looks like FUZZIES, below it. Merry Christmas 73 AC0Y --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Bob Dengler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 12/19/2004 10:29 PM, you wrote: When it comes to Phase noise of an oscillator, the higher the Q of the resonant circuit, the better the phase noise. An LC circuit generally will have a Q of around 100 where a crystal can have a Q of 10,000 to 500,000, thus a crystal oscillator generally yields superior phase noise performance over LC circuits, such as the VCO in the GE PLL exciter. I have seen instances where engineers have use conventional multiplier circuits (fundamentally similar to the old GE highband exciter, without the issues) to achieve superior phase noise performance over a PLL circuit, because the phase noise of the VCO was the weakest link in the PLL circuit. Unless these multipliers without issues have very high Q tuned circuits, I don't see where the improvement in phase noise would come from. Noise is increased anytime a signal is multiplied by the factor 20*log(N), where N is the multiplication factor. So for the highband VHF exciter utilizing a crystal oscillator (x 12), the noise will be 21.6 dB higher (referenced to the carrier) than the noise of the crystal oscillator itself. I'm not ceratin of this but I don't think it's possible to reduce this noise without resorting to very high-Q multiplier circuits or interstage filtering. Bob NO6B Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.
Instead of deviating the crystal, How about generating a super stable VCO using a PLL that has say a 5 second lock time instead of the typical 2mS lock time running all the time, this could even be frequency locked to a 10MHz source such as those found on GPS recievers. Then to modulate it, we would use a double balenced mixer with filtered baseband audio on the second port and amplify what comes out and for keying just turn off the RF port from the VCO going into the mixer. This would create FM correct? But I would think you would need alot of AF and must be balanced audio with op-amps fed with + and - voltage or a good matching transformer. I have seen a ass load of mixers that say the IF port will accept DC to 200 MHz, Sounds perfect for 30Hz to 5000. On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 01:50:03 -, Coy Hilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joe, youre right about the error in PPM. BUT taking a crystal and deviding it also devides the error in PPM by the same amount and multiply it you Multiply by the same factor so the reletive error is the same in PPM. A 12 MHZ crystal with a 2PPM error will be off by 24 Hz. Take that same crystal and multiply it by 12 ...(GE) and the error is still 2ppm..but the error freq is now 12 * 24 or 288 HZ or 144000288Hz In the GE PLL exciter the VCO is devided and compaired to the ICOM and the error voltage is fed back to the VCO so the Deviated Crystal freq basically whips the VCO around to deviate it...THE VCO output tracks the ICOM freq by way of the Error voltage generated in the comparitor. Simple, AYE? That is why I use A 10 MHZ output from a GPS as a time base for my Direct Digital Synth. for my MASTRII. I take the 10 MHz Double it and double it again to get 40 Mhz and use the DDS to set the freq. The DDS has a 32 bit freq word and I can set the frequency by .2 Hz increments that way,I can get dead on freq that way. 73 AC0Y --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Joe Montierth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The frequency stability of any transmitter is only as good as it's reference oscillator (be that a PLL or a multiplied crystal)- dividing or multiplying the frequency will not change that constant (in PPM). It doesn't matter if you use a 100KHz, 1MHz, 10MHz or 100MHz reference frequency, if they are all the same in PPM. You don't somehow get better stability by dividing the frequency, and you don't get worse by multiplying the frequency. It is what it is. Joe --- Wade Lake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin, I now realize the mistake I was making in looking at this. I am used to seeing newer PLL's with a much higher reference oscillator frequency and having a divider in the reference side before the Phase Comparator. In that case the stability does improve over that of the reference oscillator, but that obviously does not apply here. Sorry, I will shut up now. Wade - KR7K - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service. Wade, If the PLL reference from the crystal is X3, and the VCO sample has been divided by 4, what is the product of 3 times 4? The answer is 12. If the transmitter was any more stable in frequency than the reference, shouldn't one think the stated frequency stability would be better than 2 PPM or 5 PPM, which is the stability of the ICOM itself? Many times the manual states the VCO is locked to the 12th multiple of the ICOM. This means the output of the GE PLL exciter will have the stability of the ICOM, times 12, period. Kevin Custer Wade Lake wrote: I stand corrected, in part anyway. In this GE radio the deviation is indeed at a divide by 12 from the output. This is why I said usually, I am not familiar with the intricate details of all radios. Especially GE's, I was a Motorola tech for quite a few years. I will leave the GE's to others like you who are more familiar with their inner workings. However, even in this particular radio, I noticed the PLL circuit uses a X3 from the original ICOM freq as the PLL reference. This is made obvious by the divide by 4 fed back from the output of the VCO. So even though the PLL circuit here is not more stable by a factor of 12, as I initially stated, it theoretically should be more stable by a factor of 4. This does not appy to deviation in this case but it will most definately apply to frequency drift. My 2 and a half cents worth. Wade - KR7K - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Kenwood TKR-830
I sure hope you did not pay the TKR-830 price for a TKR-820 Mike -- Original message -- Well, gang. I finally have the monster in my hot little hands!! And I find it is NOT a TKR-830, but rather a TKR-820... From reading the Repeater-Builder's web page, I see that Gene - WB0PKP has a TKR-820 operating on the ham band. Gene - if you're out there reading this, can you get in touch with me off-list?? For Gene and all, some questions... 1) Can I use the software for the 830 to program this, or is there another version? 2) How difficult is it to get it to go to 444 MHz? (I need mine on 444.550) It is currently on 462. 3) Will be looking for manuals, etc... Thanks all, and sorry for the confusion. Mark - N9WYSYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Sinclair Q-202G
Bob, A bandpass filter should follow the duplexer, so that it does not affect the impedance matches between the transmit and receive cavities of the duplexer, and to the antenna. In each of the cases where I added bandpass cavities on the receive side, it was to limit the bandwidth going to an RF preamplifier, and I used a random length of RG-400/U coax. Maybe it was an incredible coincidence, but the sensitivity numbers showed that everything was closely matched. Although I have used the famous Motorola MICOR preamps in several installations, I prefer to go first class with Angle Linear GaAsFET preamps preceded by two large bandpass cavities set for a total insertion loss of 1.0 dB, and followed by a 6 or 10 dB attenuator before going to the receiver. While others may get excellent results with much less complicated (and expensive!) installations, I like to over-design when the system is critical and may be compromised by other nearby radios. YMMV. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY rtoplus wrote: --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul, ...snip... A 100W repeater normally requires 100 dB of isolation for zero desense, and that usually calls for six cavities. However, I have used a Q-202G duplexer with two added bandpass cavities on the receive side, and it had zero desense with a 100W PA. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY Hi Eric and others Question...I have the same duplexer and was thinking of adding a couple of bandpass filters as well. Does the 14 cable length apply to the added on cavities as well? And should they be installed between the antenna port and first RX cavity or between the last RX cavity and receiver or does it matter? I know the cabling for this duplexer is kinda funky so I'm wondering just where in the cabling scheme of things any add on filters should be added and their cable lengths. I have a DB Products 4 can bandpass duplexer 150/160 mHz or so that's just sitting around doing nothing and I figured I'd put some of the cans to some use. The model is a DB 4044 but I don't know if the rods are long enough to tune to 146.775/.175 mHz (my 2 meter frequency)...never tried to tune it down low. Its currently on 152.915/159.900. If they can be used, should the add on cans be tuned independently and then the whole shebang re-tuned? All I have is a couple of simple service monitors with no spectrum analyzers or network analyzers...would I be able to get close enough for government work do you suppose? I'm not sure that there are any qualified filter tuners in my area (piedmont of NC). Thanks and Happy Holidays! Bob, GMRS WPVV845, Amateur KG4WAD, LMRS WPXC892 Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Kenwood TKR-830
Nope the repeater fairy came by and left this on my doorstep Early Christmas present! J Mark N9WYS -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 9:05 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Kenwood TKR-830 I sure hope you did not pay the TKR-830 price for a TKR-820 Mike Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Digest Number 2864
You are right. The crystal oscillator (channel element)noise is multiplied up in the GE multiplier exciter. But the same thing applies to a GE PLL exciter. The phase noise of reference oscillator (channel element)is also multiplied up, it's just not done in the same fashion. Noise is a form of instability. The best way to think of it is, instead of 100% of all of the energy being at exactly one frequency, it is not. The oscillator is jittering slightly from center frequency, thus producing sideband noise. The better the oscillator, the less the jitter (or instability) the less the noise will be. This is why some oscillators have more "hiss" than others. As far as actually quantifying the phase noise of any oscillator or exciter, it donein terms of its spectral power density, which is the power contained in a 1-Hz bandwidth at any particular frequency. Additionalnoisecontributorsthat unique toa PLL circuit,include VCO noise (which can befar worse than just the noise of a crystal oscillator multiplied up due to it's lower Q), divider noise, active loop filter noise, phase detector flicker noise, among others. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to arguea "multiplier" design is a better way to go.I'm just trying to shed some light on how it works, what actually causes "hiss"and make the statement that just because one attempt at a particular approach did not yieldvery goodresults, doesn't mean that other approaches are automatically superior. With today's improved PLL techniques and integrated devices,PLL is an excellentapproach for new designs. Chris Hudgins - N5IUF Unless these multipliers without "issues" have very high Q tuned circuits, I don't see where the improvement in phase noise would come from. Noise is increased anytime a signal is multiplied by the factor 20*log(N), where N is the multiplication factor. So for the highband VHF exciter utilizing a crystal oscillator (x 12), the noise will be 21.6 dB higher (referenced to the carrier) than the noise of the crystal oscillator itself. I'm not ceratin of this but I don't think it's possible to reduce this noise without resorting tovery high-Q multiplier circuits or interstage filtering.Bob NO6B Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
We have 146.04/.64 repeater on a nearby mountain top. It worked great for years with a range of 100 miles or more. Since the phone company and a pager company installed their high power transmitters near the site of the repeater (within 100 yards) the repeater is virtually useless. After much head scratching I believe that the difference in frequency of the pager transmitter of 600 khz is the problem but have no idea how to solve the problem without going to an odd split. The repeater coordinator for this area of Virginia won't even consider that as an option. The equipment that we are using is excellent. The transmitter and receiver on the repeater are both Motorola Micor and were modified with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams using Motorola parts. This is not an equipment problem. We are running a set of Wacom cavities which were bought new and are correctly tuned and the antenna is a Phelps-Dodge Stationmaster. When the intermod occurs it is dependant on BOTH pagers transmitting at the same time. If only one pager is transmitting there is no problem. This may at first sound unusual but the pagers are in the 150 mhz band and they are exactly 600 kc apart. These transmitter are both 250 watts or more output. My theory is that the 600 kc (difference of the 2 pagers) is mixing with the output of the repeater 146.64 and producing the 146.04 signal, the repeater input frequency. We are using sub-audible tone for repeater access and as soon as a station working the repeater drops carrier the repeater drops. The intermod cannot hold up the machine once the tone is removed. This may be happening in the antenna or hardline connectors prior to the cavities. Every test I have run, and there have been many, supports this conclusion. We are not the only 2 meter repeater that has fallen victim of this problem and in every case we have found two pager transmitters situated 600 kc apart near the repeater. Most of the other machines have been taken off the air, others just put up with it. No one has been able to solve the problem and many technicians have studied it. Moving the repeater far enough away is not an option since the peak of the mountain is so small. Also we are using an existing tower which we would not have access to at other locations. The searches I have done on Google has turned up the stock answer of helical resonators which would apply to 2 meter radios but not repeaters. If you are familiar with the Micor equipment you know that the receiver has excellent helical resonators built in. Tonight I have considered the possibility of splitting the receiver and the transmitter of the repeater and linking the rx signal by a 220 mhz link. I am hoping that by reducing the level of the 146.64 signal by 50-60 db would alleviate the problem. Maybe not, but I'm out of ideas. This split would be only about 100 yards but could that be sufficient to relieve the problem? Have any of you ever had this problem and solved it? Any input (pun intended) on this matter would be appreciated. Ken Sturgill, KC4IH Marion VA please reply to ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] GP - Diesel Locomotive
And I spent 10 years in the 70's building the GE E-60-CP's and the D- series of diesel/electrics here in Erie,Pa...gee,maybe thats why I like those MastrII's s much?!!? Addicted to gold anodizing I guess...or is it in my veins? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/20/2004 7:45:51 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ok, what is a GP-68? Sounds like a Diesel Locomotive ... Neil - WA6KLA My Dad who is a 35 year retired Electro-Motive employee, Thanks you! Electro Motive are the builders of GM's Diesel Locomotive Line! (GP, SD AND OTHERS) Brian, WD9HSY Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
-- Original Message -- Received: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:54:16 PM CST From: kc4ih [EMAIL PROTECTED] SNIP virtually useless. After much head scratching I believe that the difference in frequency of the pager transmitter of 600 khz is the problem but have no idea how to solve the problem without going to an odd split. The repeater coordinator for this area of Virginia won't even consider that as an option. In my area I had to eventually say the hell with the repeater coordinator! and put up a 2 meter repeater with a non-600 split to deal with the problem I had. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
Ken the problem is not your equipment but simply a problem with the commercial pagers. Paging Xmiters are know for there sloppy transmissions. If you have access to a spectrum analyzer that is well calibrated go to the site and check their transmissions for bandwidth and see if they are within regs. If they are, and if your repeater is used for Civil Defense purposes I would file a notice of interferance against them with the FCC Field Office. If all that fails then screw the repeater co-ordinator and change your split. Mike/K1EG - Original Message - From: kc4ih [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 10:35 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters We have 146.04/.64 repeater on a nearby mountain top. It worked great for years with a range of 100 miles or more. Since the phone company and a pager company installed their high power transmitters near the site of the repeater (within 100 yards) the repeater is virtually useless. After much head scratching I believe that the difference in frequency of the pager transmitter of 600 khz is the problem but have no idea how to solve the problem without going to an odd split. The repeater coordinator for this area of Virginia won't even consider that as an option. The equipment that we are using is excellent. The transmitter and receiver on the repeater are both Motorola Micor and were modified with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams using Motorola parts. This is not an equipment problem. We are running a set of Wacom cavities which were bought new and are correctly tuned and the antenna is a Phelps-Dodge Stationmaster. When the intermod occurs it is dependant on BOTH pagers transmitting at the same time. If only one pager is transmitting there is no problem. This may at first sound unusual but the pagers are in the 150 mhz band and they are exactly 600 kc apart. These transmitter are both 250 watts or more output. My theory is that the 600 kc (difference of the 2 pagers) is mixing with the output of the repeater 146.64 and producing the 146.04 signal, the repeater input frequency. We are using sub-audible tone for repeater access and as soon as a station working the repeater drops carrier the repeater drops. The intermod cannot hold up the machine once the tone is removed. This may be happening in the antenna or hardline connectors prior to the cavities. Every test I have run, and there have been many, supports this conclusion. We are not the only 2 meter repeater that has fallen victim of this problem and in every case we have found two pager transmitters situated 600 kc apart near the repeater. Most of the other machines have been taken off the air, others just put up with it. No one has been able to solve the problem and many technicians have studied it. Moving the repeater far enough away is not an option since the peak of the mountain is so small. Also we are using an existing tower which we would not have access to at other locations. The searches I have done on Google has turned up the stock answer of helical resonators which would apply to 2 meter radios but not repeaters. If you are familiar with the Micor equipment you know that the receiver has excellent helical resonators built in. Tonight I have considered the possibility of splitting the receiver and the transmitter of the repeater and linking the rx signal by a 220 mhz link. I am hoping that by reducing the level of the 146.64 signal by 50-60 db would alleviate the problem. Maybe not, but I'm out of ideas. This split would be only about 100 yards but could that be sufficient to relieve the problem? Have any of you ever had this problem and solved it? Any input (pun intended) on this matter would be appreciated. Ken Sturgill, KC4IH Marion VA please reply to ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 2 way currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio broadcast field and possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't know what a FCC 1st class licensed ham is!! -- Original Message -- Received: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:54:16 PM CST From: kc4ih [EMAIL PROTECTED] with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
And pray you don't cause interference with any other repeaters. Joe M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If all that fails then screw the repeater co-ordinator and change your split. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.0 - Release Date: 12/17/2004 Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
Ken, Please advise exactly what frequencies these pager transmitters are operating on. There are a number of possibilities for intermod, but knowing the offending frequencies is crucial to a solution. Less than a mile from my home station, there is a hilltop site at which two high-power (3,500 watts ERP) paging transmitters operate. One is at 152.480 MHz and the other is at 157.740 MHz. A classic third-order intermodulation (2A-B) occurs when both are keyed up, resulting in a product at 147.220 MHz, which nearly clobbers my reception of the K6SYV repeater at 147.210 MHz. This is receive IM, where the mixing occurs in my own receiver due to a wide bandwidth in the front end. I cured this by changing to a Motorola CDM1550 radio, which has a very tight front end that tracks the desired receive frequency. You did not state whether the interference is on your repeater's input or output, and corrective action will be different for the two. Moreover, without having all of the pertinent information, it is almost impossible to consider a solution. Please provide a complete description of the symptoms. Part of the problem (but not necessarily the prime cause) may be due to insufficient selectivity in the front end of your repeater. The majority of bandpass/bandreject duplexers have practically no bandpass action; their operation depends primarily upon the notch action. A lot of undesirable signal can sail right through the receive side of such duplexers, ready to overload the RF input stage. In such cases, the solution is to add two or three bandpass cavities between the duplexer and the receiver. But, please provide the necessary information so that others who read this list can study the problem and recommend solutions. Who knows, the solution may be the responsibility of one or both pager operators. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY kc4ih wrote: We have 146.04/.64 repeater on a nearby mountain top. It worked great for years with a range of 100 miles or more. Since the phone company and a pager company installed their high power transmitters near the site of the repeater (within 100 yards) the repeater is virtually useless. After much head scratching I believe that the difference in frequency of the pager transmitter of 600 khz is the problem but have no idea how to solve the problem without going to an odd split. The repeater coordinator for this area of Virginia won't even consider that as an option. The equipment that we are using is excellent. The transmitter and receiver on the repeater are both Motorola Micor and were modified with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams using Motorola parts. This is not an equipment problem. We are running a set of Wacom cavities which were bought new and are correctly tuned and the antenna is a Phelps-Dodge Stationmaster. When the intermod occurs it is dependant on BOTH pagers transmitting at the same time. If only one pager is transmitting there is no problem. This may at first sound unusual but the pagers are in the 150 mhz band and they are exactly 600 kc apart. These transmitter are both 250 watts or more output. My theory is that the 600 kc (difference of the 2 pagers) is mixing with the output of the repeater 146.64 and producing the 146.04 signal, the repeater input frequency. We are using sub-audible tone for repeater access and as soon as a station working the repeater drops carrier the repeater drops. The intermod cannot hold up the machine once the tone is removed. This may be happening in the antenna or hardline connectors prior to the cavities. Every test I have run, and there have been many, supports this conclusion. We are not the only 2 meter repeater that has fallen victim of this problem and in every case we have found two pager transmitters situated 600 kc apart near the repeater. Most of the other machines have been taken off the air, others just put up with it. No one has been able to solve the problem and many technicians have studied it. Moving the repeater far enough away is not an option since the peak of the mountain is so small. Also we are using an existing tower which we would not have access to at other locations. The searches I have done on Google has turned up the stock answer of helical resonators which would apply to 2 meter radios but not repeaters. If you are familiar with the Micor equipment you know that the receiver has excellent helical resonators built in. Tonight I have considered the possibility of splitting the receiver and the transmitter of the repeater and linking the rx signal by a 220 mhz link. I am hoping that by reducing the level of the 146.64 signal by 50-60 db would alleviate the problem. Maybe not, but I'm out of ideas. This split would be only about 100 yards but could that be sufficient to relieve the problem? Have any of you ever had this problem and solved it? Any input (pun intended) on this matter would be appreciated.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
Maybe it's like a Grade A Ham? ;- Joe M. JOHN MACKEY wrote: Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 2 way currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio broadcast field and possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't know what a FCC 1st class licensed ham is!! -- Original Message -- Received: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:54:16 PM CST From: kc4ih [EMAIL PROTECTED] with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.0 - Release Date: 12/17/2004 Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Advice on Business Band repeater
I am a ham who is contemplatingbuilding a business-band repeater. I have a few questions that maybe you guys can answer and save me hours of reading and searching. I want to do this so that my family can stay in touch. The business license would be in the name of the family farm. I know that not everyone inmy family is interested in radio enough to become a ham, but would definitely own a radio if they could communicate reliably. Cell phones are horrible. I do not want to use GMRS frequencies for three reasons: I am not impressed with the policing of the GMRS frequencies. Anyone can get a GMRS radio, and the line between GMRS and FRS and CB seems to be very blurry. I don't want my mom to be the one listening when someone starts being rude on our frequency. Reason two is that I want to be able to hook up a phone patch. This is strictly forbidden in GMRS. Reason three is the "type acceptance" rule that prohibits several quality radios from being used in GMRS. My questions: What kind of cost am I looking at for a repeater pair license? Does each user need a separate license? cost per user? Can I do the research and find a frequency pair myself, or do I have to go through a coordinator? (if so, what does that cost?) (We live in a rural area, Thomasville, GA. Finding a pair should not be hard. I am hoping for a pair in the 460 band, as I have a very nice mastr II for that band.) I have been monitoring a specific frequency, and did research through the FCC website on it for users in my area. What else should I do to get started? John Clark - KI4AWK Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Advice on Business Band repeater
Are you eligible under part 90 to hold a license in the Business Radio Service, ie, 90.75 a 1, statement of eligibility? From: KI4AWK [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 5:55 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Advice on Business Band repeater I am a ham who is contemplatingbuilding a business-band repeater. I have a few questions that maybe you guys can answer and save me hours of reading and searching. [Steve Bosshard (NU5D)] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.818 / Virus Database: 556 - Release Date: 12/17/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.818 / Virus Database: 556 - Release Date: 12/17/2004
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
Excellent reply, Eric. I worked for several paging companies for about 10 years. Although several problems I found in the past were caused by the paging company, just as many were found to be shortcomings in the repeater equipment or faulty hardware on the tower. Like you said, we really need to know the frequencies involved and what specific kinds of equipment are on the ham repeater, ie duplexer model and if a preamp is being used. If the mix is external to the ham repeater, the fix may be difficult but not impossible to do. If the mix is occurring inside the repeater receiver, a notch filter to reduce the paging signals may work. Joe --- Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken, Please advise exactly what frequencies these pager transmitters are operating on. There are a number of possibilities for intermod, but knowing the offending frequencies is crucial to a solution. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
We have a problem here in Temple, Texas where one paging carrier operates a 152 system and another has 157 about a mile North of the 152 site. I cannot remember the exact frequencies, but 3 times one minus 2 times the other hit 147.240. This only happened when both paging transmitters were active. Adding a bandpass cavity at the 152 site really helped. Incidentally, both systems had clean signals, neither used ferrite isolators or cavity filters. Sometimes just complying with the rules is not enough to keep peace in the neighborhood. Ssb -Original Message- From: Joe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 6:13 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.818 / Virus Database: 556 - Release Date: 12/17/2004 Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Advice on Business Band repeater
John The same type acceptance rules that you mention for GMRS also apply to a part 90 repeater. Home built repeaters do not carry a type acceptance for part 90. The only service that can use equipment that is not type accepted is the amateur radio service and possibly the federal services such as military, and the three letter agencies. From CFR 1, 1102 The fees appear to be: Fee Payment type ActionFCC Form No. amount code Address 6. Land Mobile PMRS a. New or Renewal/Modification 601 159.. 50.00 PALR *Federal Communications (Frequencies below 470 MHzCommission, Wireless (except 220 MHz). Bureau Applications, P.O. Box 358130, Pittsburgh, PA 15251-5130. 73 Glenn WB4UIV 06:55 AM 12/21/04, you wrote: I am a ham who is contemplating building a business-band repeater. I have a few questions that maybe you guys can answer and save me hours of reading and searching. I want to do this so that my family can stay in touch. The business license would be in the name of the family farm. I know that not everyone in my family is interested in radio enough to become a ham, but would definitely own a radio if they could communicate reliably. Cell phones are horrible. I do not want to use GMRS frequencies for three reasons: I am not impressed with the policing of the GMRS frequencies. Anyone can get a GMRS radio, and the line between GMRS and FRS and CB seems to be very blurry. I don't want my mom to be the one listening when someone starts being rude on our frequency. Reason two is that I want to be able to hook up a phone patch. This is strictly forbidden in GMRS. Reason three is the type acceptance rule that prohibits several quality radios from being used in GMRS. snip John Clark - KI4AWK -- Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Advice on Business Band repeater
Dear John You may find it worth while to call me at 800.298.2850 We are in this business and understand the "Battelfield Logistics" 73 Ed Folta K9QPJ President Com/Rad Inc. http://www.com-rad.com - Original Message - From: KI4AWK To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 5:55 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Advice on Business Band repeater I am a ham who is contemplatingbuilding a business-band repeater. I have a few questions that maybe you guys can answer and save me hours of reading and searching. I want to do this so that my family can stay in touch. The business license would be in the name of the family farm. I know that not everyone inmy family is interested in radio enough to become a ham, but would definitely own a radio if they could communicate reliably. Cell phones are horrible. I do not want to use GMRS frequencies for three reasons: I am not impressed with the policing of the GMRS frequencies. Anyone can get a GMRS radio, and the line between GMRS and FRS and CB seems to be very blurry. I don't want my mom to be the one listening when someone starts being rude on our frequency. Reason two is that I want to be able to hook up a phone patch. This is strictly forbidden in GMRS. Reason three is the "type acceptance" rule that prohibits several quality radios from being used in GMRS. My questions: What kind of cost am I looking at for a repeater pair license? Does each user need a separate license? cost per user? Can I do the research and find a frequency pair myself, or do I have to go through a coordinator? (if so, what does that cost?) (We live in a rural area, Thomasville, GA. Finding a pair should not be hard. I am hoping for a pair in the 460 band, as I have a very nice mastr II for that band.) I have been monitoring a specific frequency, and did research through the FCC website on it for users in my area. What else should I do to get started? John Clark - KI4AWK Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
All paging transmitters involved should have narrow bandpass cavities and circulators on their outputs. That's usually considered a must at any site. If the paging company isn't willing to spend the money for that, then they aren't to serious about staying in business. The good news is that VHF common carrier paging is slowly going away, and the remaining frequencies will likely be dropped and released back into the general pool in a few years, or less. There is virtually no VHF paging here in NE Ohio anymore. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL kc4ih wrote: We have 146.04/.64 repeater on a nearby mountain top. It worked great for years with a range of 100 miles or more. Since the phone company and a pager company installed their high power transmitters near the site of the repeater (within 100 yards) the repeater is virtually useless. After much head scratching I believe that the difference in frequency of the pager transmitter of 600 khz is the problem but have no idea how to solve the problem without going to an odd split. The repeater coordinator for this area of Virginia won't even consider that as an option. The equipment that we are using is excellent. The transmitter and receiver on the repeater are both Motorola Micor and were modified with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams using Motorola parts. This is not an equipment problem. We are running a set of Wacom cavities which were bought new and are correctly tuned and the antenna is a Phelps-Dodge Stationmaster. When the intermod occurs it is dependant on BOTH pagers transmitting at the same time. If only one pager is transmitting there is no problem. This may at first sound unusual but the pagers are in the 150 mhz band and they are exactly 600 kc apart. These transmitter are both 250 watts or more output. My theory is that the 600 kc (difference of the 2 pagers) is mixing with the output of the repeater 146.64 and producing the 146.04 signal, the repeater input frequency. We are using sub-audible tone for repeater access and as soon as a station working the repeater drops carrier the repeater drops. The intermod cannot hold up the machine once the tone is removed. This may be happening in the antenna or hardline connectors prior to the cavities. Every test I have run, and there have been many, supports this conclusion. We are not the only 2 meter repeater that has fallen victim of this problem and in every case we have found two pager transmitters situated 600 kc apart near the repeater. Most of the other machines have been taken off the air, others just put up with it. No one has been able to solve the problem and many technicians have studied it. Moving the repeater far enough away is not an option since the peak of the mountain is so small. Also we are using an existing tower which we would not have access to at other locations. The searches I have done on Google has turned up the stock answer of helical resonators which would apply to 2 meter radios but not repeaters. If you are familiar with the Micor equipment you know that the receiver has excellent helical resonators built in. Tonight I have considered the possibility of splitting the receiver and the transmitter of the repeater and linking the rx signal by a 220 mhz link. I am hoping that by reducing the level of the 146.64 signal by 50-60 db would alleviate the problem. Maybe not, but I'm out of ideas. This split would be only about 100 yards but could that be sufficient to relieve the problem? Have any of you ever had this problem and solved it? Any input (pun intended) on this matter would be appreciated. Ken Sturgill, KC4IH Marion VA please reply to ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
You will find less and less narrow band cavities on paging transmitters lately. As the paging industry slowly goes into their death spiral of loosing customers, they no longer need 2, 4 or more transmitters at each site to deal with the capacity of pagers out there. What some companies are doing is leaving one transmitter at the site and doing multi-frequencies out of a single transmitter (This is assuming they were all on the same band, 900Mhz for example.) When they multi-frequency a transmitter they need to remove any narrow band filters off the transmitter output. This may explain why some ham repeater sites that were quiet now have noise problems. The irony of it is that you see paging transmitters leaving a site and think that the noise floor is going to go down, only to find that the nose increases tenfold. 73, Joe, K1ike At 09:53 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote: All paging transmitters involved should have narrow bandpass cavities and circulators on their outputs. That's usually considered a must at any site. If the paging company isn't willing to spend the money for that, then they aren't to serious about staying in business. The good news is that VHF common carrier paging is slowly going away, and the remaining frequencies will likely be dropped and released back into the general pool in a few years, or less. There is virtually no VHF paging here in NE Ohio anymore. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL All outgoing email scanned with Norton AntiVirus2004. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
Except that the vast majority of VHF transmitters/networks weren't really capable of multi-freq on the fly as you describe. At least around here, anyway, they were virtually all Micor PURC stations. And most sites would not have allowed the transmitters to remain without cavites anyway. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL Joe wrote: You will find less and less narrow band cavities on paging transmitters lately. As the paging industry slowly goes into their death spiral of loosing customers, they no longer need 2, 4 or more transmitters at each site to deal with the capacity of pagers out there. What some companies are doing is leaving one transmitter at the site and doing multi-frequencies out of a single transmitter (This is assuming they were all on the same band, 900Mhz for example.) When they multi-frequency a transmitter they need to remove any narrow band filters off the transmitter output. This may explain why some ham repeater sites that were quiet now have noise problems. The irony of it is that you see paging transmitters leaving a site and think that the noise floor is going to go down, only to find that the nose increases tenfold. 73, Joe, K1ike At 09:53 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote: All paging transmitters involved should have narrow bandpass cavities and circulators on their outputs. That's usually considered a must at any site. If the paging company isn't willing to spend the money for that, then they aren't to serious about staying in business. The good news is that VHF common carrier paging is slowly going away, and the remaining frequencies will likely be dropped and released back into the general pool in a few years, or less. There is virtually no VHF paging here in NE Ohio anymore. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, JOHN MACKEY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 2 way currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio broadcast field and possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't know what a FCC 1st class licensed ham is!! It was about 2 am here when I wrote this last night but If you are the Chief Engineer of a radio station then you should know that anyone prior to 1984 a person had to hold a first class FCC technicians license to work on and repair and operate a radio or TV station. The 1st class and 2nd class were combined in the late 1980s to a general class technicians license and made a lifetime license, not to be confused with the technician class ham license. The fact that the two of us hold an extra class and the other an advanced class ham ticket was not explained but I assumed that it would be understood. That is not the problem, its the repeater intermod. This reply is the reason that I hate to post to a group such as this. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
Thank you John! Those replies are the very reason people hesitate posting to groups such as this. I missed only 2 questions on the 1st class test and none on my advanced ham test. I don't think I have to prove my credentials before posting but there they are. I appreciate everyones input, even the Yahoo group police. Ken --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, WD7F - John in Tucson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that most of us knew what he meant. Everybody just loves a wise ass, as if it's not intimidating enough to get on this reflector and ask a question. I'm really surprised that you two don't have all of your glorious credentials listed in your signature at the end of your postings so that we would know how great you are. de WD7F John in Tucson - Original Message - From: mch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 11:00 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters Maybe it's like a Grade A Ham? ;- Joe M. JOHN MACKEY wrote: Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 2 way currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio broadcast field and possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't know what a FCC 1st class licensed ham is!! -- Original Message -- Received: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:54:16 PM CST From: kc4ih [EMAIL PROTECTED] with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.0 - Release Date: 12/17/2004 Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
How true and the same is being seen here. With the reduced activity we are seeing some hams come back to the 146.640 repeater. We can thank cell phones for the demise of the pagers. Thank you for you input on the situation. Ken --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Jim B. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All paging transmitters involved should have narrow bandpass cavities and circulators on their outputs. That's usually considered a must at any site. If the paging company isn't willing to spend the money for that, then they aren't to serious about staying in business. The good news is that VHF common carrier paging is slowly going away, and the remaining frequencies will likely be dropped and released back into the general pool in a few years, or less. There is virtually no VHF paging here in NE Ohio anymore. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL kc4ih wrote: We have 146.04/.64 repeater on a nearby mountain top. It worked great for years with a range of 100 miles or more. Since the phone company and a pager company installed their high power transmitters near the site of the repeater (within 100 yards) the repeater is virtually useless. After much head scratching I believe that the difference in frequency of the pager transmitter of 600 khz is the problem but have no idea how to solve the problem without going to an odd split. The repeater coordinator for this area of Virginia won't even consider that as an option. The equipment that we are using is excellent. The transmitter and receiver on the repeater are both Motorola Micor and were modified with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams using Motorola parts. This is not an equipment problem. We are running a set of Wacom cavities which were bought new and are correctly tuned and the antenna is a Phelps-Dodge Stationmaster. When the intermod occurs it is dependant on BOTH pagers transmitting at the same time. If only one pager is transmitting there is no problem. This may at first sound unusual but the pagers are in the 150 mhz band and they are exactly 600 kc apart. These transmitter are both 250 watts or more output. My theory is that the 600 kc (difference of the 2 pagers) is mixing with the output of the repeater 146.64 and producing the 146.04 signal, the repeater input frequency. We are using sub-audible tone for repeater access and as soon as a station working the repeater drops carrier the repeater drops. The intermod cannot hold up the machine once the tone is removed. This may be happening in the antenna or hardline connectors prior to the cavities. Every test I have run, and there have been many, supports this conclusion. We are not the only 2 meter repeater that has fallen victim of this problem and in every case we have found two pager transmitters situated 600 kc apart near the repeater. Most of the other machines have been taken off the air, others just put up with it. No one has been able to solve the problem and many technicians have studied it. Moving the repeater far enough away is not an option since the peak of the mountain is so small. Also we are using an existing tower which we would not have access to at other locations. The searches I have done on Google has turned up the stock answer of helical resonators which would apply to 2 meter radios but not repeaters. If you are familiar with the Micor equipment you know that the receiver has excellent helical resonators built in. Tonight I have considered the possibility of splitting the receiver and the transmitter of the repeater and linking the rx signal by a 220 mhz link. I am hoping that by reducing the level of the 146.64 signal by 50-60 db would alleviate the problem. Maybe not, but I'm out of ideas. This split would be only about 100 yards but could that be sufficient to relieve the problem? Have any of you ever had this problem and solved it? Any input (pun intended) on this matter would be appreciated. Ken Sturgill, KC4IH Marion VA please reply to ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] KFI down tower pics
For those of you who want a closer look at the downed kfi (Los Angles) tower. http://sakrison.com/radio/KFItowercollapse.html enjoy skipp Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
kc4ih wrote: How true and the same is being seen here. With the reduced activity we are seeing some hams come back to the 146.640 repeater. We can thank cell phones for the demise of the pagers. Thank you for you input on the situation. Ken Yes, I do hope that those transmitters go away for you. We had the same problem here with 146.625. Right next to us was 158.10 and 158.70. Plus a couple of 152's that caused their own product on our input. For the longest time we just couldn't run a receiver at that site. Now all the VHF and all but one UHF are gone from that site, and the networks shut down, so we have a receiver there now. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] RE: [rfamplifiers] tower pics
Skip, et all... If you would like a little history into the background of KFI the following is something that was posted the other day for folks in da biz... follow the link at the end for many interesting pics. This was a very historic facility steeped in AM lore.. mike KFI(AM) TOWER COLLAPSES - STRUCK BY AN AIRCRAFT, TWO DEAD Sunday, December 19, 2004 - I just got a call and saw it on TV: KFI's 750' tower was hit by a private plane. The tower came down in folded pieces missing buildings and falling completely within the parking lot. KFI is back on the air on their aux tower but only running 5 kW. The two people in the plane, a man and women, were killed. It's amazing how the tower missed the buildings and apparently all vehicles in the parking lot. - L.A. broadcast engineer Burt Weiner The Cessna 182 struck the KFI tower about 9:49 a.m A small fire followed but was extinguished KFI was off the air for about an hour, before Tony Dinkel could bully his way into the site and manually switch to the 200' aux tower There may be a crack in a wall of one of the concrete tilt-up buildings on the KFI property, not sure of the cause I recall that the KFI tower was hit by an airplane years ago, but the tower won that time Getting permits to install a new 750' tower may be challenging. -Various sources Photos of KFI's transmitter plant before the accident are shown at the URL below. The 50 kW tuning house (third picture down on the right) is said to be seriously damaged, if not demolished. KFI is generally regarded as one of the nation's premiere AM stations, so this story - including the unfortunate loss of life - is big news. It is fortunate that the aux tower - also a guyed structure on the same property - survived. http://www.earthsignals.com/Collins/0020/index.htm -Original Message- From: skipp025 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:21 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [rfamplifiers] tower pics I know this is a bit off topic, but it's very interesting. KFI is (was) a 50KW AM Broadcast Station. Now running 5KW into the Aux tower. For those of you who want a closer look at the downed kfi (Los Angles) tower. http://sakrison.com/radio/KFItowercollapse.html enjoy skipp Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
The (former) First Second Class FCC licenses you are referring to weren't conbined into the general class technicians license (it sounds like you are confising the names of amateur commercial licenses). Rather, they were combined into the General Radiotelephone Operator License (GROL) which was a lifetime license. The GROL is no longer required for land mobile two-way or broadcast work is optional. It is only required for working on maritime and avionics equipment. When I got my current job as a Chief Engineer of a FM broadcast station, they had no idea what a GROL was There is no FCC 1st class licensed ham. Perhaps you are referring to a licensed ham that also happens to have a GROL (formerly the first/second class radiotelephone), which was NOT a ham radio license. (Despite what some of them thought!!!) -- Original Message -- Received: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:47:41 AM CST From: kc4ih [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, JOHN MACKEY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 2 way currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio broadcast field and possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't know what a FCC 1st class licensed ham is!! It was about 2 am here when I wrote this last night but If you are the Chief Engineer of a radio station then you should know that anyone prior to 1984 a person had to hold a first class FCC technicians license to work on and repair and operate a radio or TV station. The 1st class and 2nd class were combined in the late 1980s to a general class technicians license and made a lifetime license, not to be confused with the technician class ham license. The fact that the two of us hold an extra class and the other an advanced class ham ticket was not explained but I assumed that it would be understood. That is not the problem, its the repeater intermod. This reply is the reason that I hate to post to a group such as this. Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
Sounds like a similar problem here in Portland, Oregon. We have a guy running an IRLP node here on what is commonly thought of as 2 meter simplex frequencies. The station is on a broadcast tower with high elevation running about 375 watts ERP!!! Mobiles 100 miles away can clearly hear the IRLP node!! The IRLP node is made from amateur grade RF equipement has had SEVERAL problems with causing interference with the inputs of other repeaters in the area. Attempting to talk to the owner suggesting he put sharp cavity filters on the transmitter resulted in his reply of then I wouldn't be able to be frequency agile. Meanwhile, his deviation has been measured at +/- 9 KHz, and he argues that there is nothing wrong because a telecom service agency measured set his deviation. -- Original Message -- Received: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:23:57 AM CST From: Jim B. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters Except that the vast majority of VHF transmitters/networks weren't really capable of multi-freq on the fly as you describe. At least around here, anyway, they were virtually all Micor PURC stations. And most sites would not have allowed the transmitters to remain without cavites anyway. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL Joe wrote: You will find less and less narrow band cavities on paging transmitters lately. As the paging industry slowly goes into their death spiral of loosing customers, they no longer need 2, 4 or more transmitters at each site to deal with the capacity of pagers out there. What some companies are doing is leaving one transmitter at the site and doing multi-frequencies out of a single transmitter (This is assuming they were all on the same band, 900Mhz for example.) When they multi-frequency a transmitter they need to remove any narrow band filters off the transmitter output. This may explain why some ham repeater sites that were quiet now have noise problems. The irony of it is that you see paging transmitters leaving a site and think that the noise floor is going to go down, only to find that the nose increases tenfold. 73, Joe, K1ike At 09:53 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote: All paging transmitters involved should have narrow bandpass cavities and circulators on their outputs. That's usually considered a must at any site. If the paging company isn't willing to spend the money for that, then they aren't to serious about staying in business. The good news is that VHF common carrier paging is slowly going away, and the remaining frequencies will likely be dropped and released back into the general pool in a few years, or less. There is virtually no VHF paging here in NE Ohio anymore. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] KFI down tower pics
Skip, et all... If you would like a little history into the background of KFI the following is something that was posted the other day for folks in da biz... follow the link at the end for many interesting pics. This was a very historic facility steeped in AM lore.. mike KFI(AM) TOWER COLLAPSES - STRUCK BY AN AIRCRAFT, TWO DEAD Sunday, December 19, 2004 - I just got a call and saw it on TV: KFI's 750' tower was hit by a private plane. The tower came down in folded pieces missing buildings and falling completely within the parking lot. KFI is back on the air on their aux tower but only running 5 kW. The two people in the plane, a man and women, were killed. It's amazing how the tower missed the buildings and apparently all vehicles in the parking lot. - L.A. broadcast engineer Burt Weiner The Cessna 182 struck the KFI tower about 9:49 a.m A small fire followed but was extinguished KFI was off the air for about an hour, before Tony Dinkel could bully his way into the site and manually switch to the 200' aux tower There may be a crack in a wall of one of the concrete tilt-up buildings on the KFI property, not sure of the cause I recall that the KFI tower was hit by an airplane years ago, but the tower won that time Getting permits to install a new 750' tower may be challenging. -Various sources Photos of KFI's transmitter plant before the accident are shown at the URL below. The 50 kW tuning house (third picture down on the right) is said to be seriously damaged, if not demolished. KFI is generally regarded as one of the nation's premiere AM stations, so this story - including the unfortunate loss of life - is big news. It is fortunate that the aux tower - also a guyed structure on the same property - survived. http://www.earthsignals.com/Collins/0020/index.htm -Original Message- From: skipp025 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:21 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [rfamplifiers] tower pics I know this is a bit off topic, but it's very interesting. KFI is (was) a 50KW AM Broadcast Station. Now running 5KW into the Aux tower. For those of you who want a closer look at the downed kfi (Los Angles) tower. http://sakrison.com/radio/KFItowercollapse.html enjoy skipp Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem frompager transmitters
Cute ... I saw that too but declined to comment ... Neil JOHN MACKEY wrote: Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 2 way currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio broadcast field and possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't know what a FCC 1st class licensed ham is!! -- Original Message -- Received: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:54:16 PM CST From: kc4ih [EMAIL PROTECTED] with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] KFI down tower pics
sorry for the double post must be keyboard bounce or something... ooops!) mike -Original Message- From: Mike Perryman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 12:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] KFI down tower pics Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Advice on Business Band repeater
If the proposed operation will be used to conduct the business activities of your farm, then you are eligible. James Steve Bosshard (NU5D) wrote: Are you eligible under part 90 to hold a license in the Business Radio Service, ie, 90.75 a 1, statement of eligibility? From: KI4AWK [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 5:55 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Advice on Business Band repeater I am a ham who is contemplatingbuilding a business-band repeater. I have a few questions that maybe you guys can answer and save me hours of reading and searching. [Steve Bosshard (NU5D)] --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.818 / Virus Database: 556 - Release Date: 12/17/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.818 / Virus Database: 556 - Release Date: 12/17/2004 Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem frompager transmitters
No, you didn't !!! ;) Kenneth Buley Bullitt County DES CD-2 Bullitt County Red Cross/Certified ECRVDriver/Operator BC-6 Bullitt County ARES\RACES Coordinator KY4DES -Original Message- From: Neil McKie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 12:28 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem frompager transmitters Cute ... I saw that too but declined to comment ... Neil JOHN MACKEY wrote: Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 2 way currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio broadcast field and possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't know what a FCC 1st class licensed ham is!! -- Original Message -- Received: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:54:16 PM CST From: kc4ih [EMAIL PROTECTED] with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
The paging companies were more up to date here in the Northeast, Motorola Nucleus and Glenayre/Quintron equipment. Some were capable of up to 16 frequencies in the same band. Joe At 10:23 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote: Except that the vast majority of VHF transmitters/networks weren't really capable of multi-freq on the fly as you describe. At least around here, anyway, they were virtually all Micor PURC stations. And most sites would not have allowed the transmitters to remain without cavites anyway. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
Joe, Do you have any info on the Motorola Nucleus gear... I have a high power PA for 900MHz that I thought about trying to make use of, but can find no docs... TIA, mike At 12:56 PM 12/21/2004 -0500, you wrote: The paging companies were more up to date here in the Northeast, Motorola Nucleus and Glenayre/Quintron equipment. Some were capable of up to 16 frequencies in the same band. Joe At 10:23 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote: Except that the vast majority of VHF transmitters/networks weren't really capable of multi-freq on the fly as you describe. At least around here, anyway, they were virtually all Micor PURC stations. And most sites would not have allowed the transmitters to remain without cavites anyway. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL Yahoo! Groups Links - Mike PerrymanCavell, Mertz Davis, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Consulting Engineers http://www.cmdconsulting.com 7839 Ashton Avenue K5JMPManassas, VA 20109 USA (703) 392-9090; (703) 392-9559 fax; DC Line (202) 332-0110 - Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] antenna question for 2M ham. . .
OK. One of the repeaters I help maintain (145.170 located in Connellsville, PA on the mountain) recently lost an antenna in the wind storms that hit us around the beginning of December. Antenna we had on the tower was a Celwave PD340-3 (If you have never seen a 4 bay folded dipole with the top 3/4 of the antenna flapping in the wind, trust me you don't want to. . . Saw the darn thing in the middle of the wind storm blowing straight out side ways from the tower holding on by the harness. . . ) Past experience with trying to find a new replacement shows that Celwave doesn't make this model anymore. (Last summer replacing the antenna on 147.045 for W3PIE) Along the lines of the 4 Bay folded dipole arrays what does anyone recommend? (Familiar with the DB224E antenna) Anyone making these with an internal harness instead of an external harness? (Weather in SW PA is not user friendly especially when putting the antennas on the top of a mountain) If this has been covered in the list prior I apologize, have not had time to look in the archives so if covered prior give me a rough idea of when so I can look. Otherwise, reply on the list or direct to [EMAIL PROTECTED] would be appreciated. Thanks Tony, KA3VOR Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem frompager transmitters
Thank you, sir! Neil - WA6KLA Buley, Kenneth L (GE Consumer Industrial) wrote: No, you didn't !!! ;) Kenneth Buley Bullitt County DES CD-2 Bullitt County Red Cross/Certified ECRVDriver/Operator BC-6 Bullitt County ARES\RACES Coordinator KY4DES -Original Message- From: Neil McKie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 12:28 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem frompager transmitters Cute ... I saw that too but declined to comment ... Neil JOHN MACKEY wrote: Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 2 way currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio broadcast field and possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't know what a FCC 1st class licensed ham is!! -- Original Message -- Received: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:54:16 PM CST From: kc4ih [EMAIL PROTECTED] with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
Thanks a ton!! Not sure what I will use it for, thought of maybe ATV (FM modulation scheme)repeater or something... in on 1.2 and out on 900. I didn't really give it much though, especially since the elusive docs and what-not. I have a 75 watt PA for 800 from a Micor that I had considered converting.. but the Nuke would be native... and hopefully easier to deal with. I will give Mr. Malicki a try... thanks again. mike At 01:20 PM 12/21/2004 -0500, you wrote: Try emailing [EMAIL PROTECTED] , Dave got one running on 927Mhz and I think he was able to get 300 watts out of it. The Nuke PA would do 300 watts, but lasted much longer at 275 or, better yet, 250 watts. Do you need cavities? 73, Joe, k1ike At 01:06 PM 12/21/2004, you wrote: Joe, Do you have any info on the Motorola Nucleus gear... I have a high power PA for 900MHz that I thought about trying to make use of, but can find no docs... TIA, mike All outgoing email scanned with Norton AntiVirus2004. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ - Mike Perryman Cavell, Mertz Davis, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Consulting Engineers http://www.cmdconsulting.com 7839 Ashton Avenue K5JMP Manassas, VA 20109 USA (703) 392-9090; (703) 392-9559 fax; DC Line (202) 332-0110 - Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Repeater-Builder] Motorola GM300 Power-up Question
Subject: Motorola GM300 Model M34GMC29C3A UHF 16-channel Radio The radio was powering on and off ok using front panel volume control- switch. When I plugged a Motorola RIB into it for programming the power blinked off and I can't turn it on. Any suggestions? Michael W7RAT Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] KFI down tower pics
At 09:19 AM 12/21/04, Mike Perryman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This was a very historic facility steeped in AM lore.. Yep. The tower site is a local landmark, just off of Interstate 5, a few miles from Disneyland and Knott's Berry Farm. KFI moved its transmitter location from downtown Los Angeles to the current site in the 1930's. At that time they used two 400 foot towers until the 750 foot tower was constructed in about 1948. The tower was a half-wave antenna, which can handle the full 50 KW. The present aux tower of about 200 feet can handle about 25 KW but is said to be running at 5 KW to comply with the FCC and ANSI requirements - with workers within the complex. News reports said: 1) The guy wires were all replaced earlier this year. 2) The entire 750 foot tower was repainted just a couple of years ago. 3) the Cessna 182 hit the 10 foot tall lightning rod with the center of the right wing. Six feet higher and it would have completely missed. 4) It happened just before 10AM on a bright sunny day so visibility was not an issue, and the sun would have been from above (i.e. he wasn't flying right into the rising sun). 5) Temperatures were in the high 60s / low 70s. KFI Tower tour - http://www.qsl.net/ad7db/kfi.html My dad told me that when he was in England in WW2 that he strung a 120' long wire between two trees at an airfield outside London and heard it just fine on a Hallicrafters SX-28. Here's an aerial photo that in the lower left corner shows just how close the tower site is to the Interstate 5, the frontage road, and some industrial buildings. The big circle near the warehouse is the gravel ring around the main tower, the small circle on the left is the ring around the aux tower. The transmitter buildings are in the top left corner of the property. http://www.terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=1S=10Z=11X=2031Y=18746W=3 The pilot was supposedly on his downwind leg and WAY too far out of the established landing pattern and WAY too low - one local pilot mentioned on another newsgroup: Except when landing and taking off, fixed wing aircraft must maintian 1000 feet above the nearest object with a 2000 foot horizontal radius. However the aircraft was landing at Fullerton airport so that does not apply. FYI Fullerton is a local community airport several miles away on the east. The top of the KFI tower is at 820 feet above sea level according to my LA sectional chart and Fullerton airport is at 96 feet above sea level. The tower is far enough away from the airport that you would really have to try to be down low enough to hit the tower. I have flown into and out of Fullerton many times and it's just not really much of an issue. Short answer is that the pilot did something stupid and got caught - the hard way. 73 Jim Walls - K6CCC Another comment was that avoiding KFI's tower was zero trouble if you had normal situational awareness that any pilot-in-command has to have anyway. And since it's been there since before 90 percent of the pilots that are flying were born, and before the airport was built, you should know it was there. Mike WA6ILQ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Help in selecting 2 bay antenna
Seasons greetings to you all! Our club is in the process of moving its repeater and we're going to go with a new antenna. The problem is, the company who owns the tower has a brand new Decibels products A711 antenna. Will this work on the frequency of 145.230Mhz? I hope I'm not asking a question that has just been asked. Hope you all have great CHRISTMAS Richard Ranta K8JX /\___/\ ^ ^ )_o_(I love Samoyed Rescue- Save a Sammy !! U Visit Blaze's Forever Home http://www.foreverhomesamoyed.org Want an exciting hobby? visit http://www.W8USA.ORG A good teacher will try to convince a poor student that they are better than they think they are, in order to give them confidence to do better. A bad teacher only recognizes a poor student. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Digest Number 2865
Ken, This can happen when any two transmitters are transmitting at the same time, 600 khz apart. I've seen it happen to 2 meter repeaters when two uhf transmitters 600 khz apart are transmitting nearby when the 2 meter system was up. I've seen it happen near two AM broadcast stations 600 khz apart. That's primarily why in Illinois the six meter repeaters don't use one mhz spacing as there is a high power AM station in Chicago on one mhz. There doesn't need to be any simple harmonic relationship between any of the frequencies involved. I've been told by the experts that this is imposible, that they must be related, but have seen too many first-hand examples that would prove otherwise. Cirulators and isolators can help if installed properly but any rusty or loose bolt or dissimilar metal joint near any of the antennas can cause the problem. It's avery tough situation to deal with, however, as others have said, VHF paging is slowly going away Good luck, Al, K9SI Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:35:35 - From: kc4ih [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters We have 146.04/.64 repeater on a nearby mountain top. It worked great for years with a range of 100 miles or more. Since the phone company and a pager company installed their high power transmitters near the site of the repeater (within 100 yards) the repeater is virtually useless. After much head scratching I believe that the difference in frequency of the pager transmitter of 600 khz is the problem but have no idea how to solve the problem without going to an odd split. The repeater coordinator for this area of Virginia won't even consider that as an option. snip Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Advice on Business Band repeater
A farm is a business. If it's a family farm, the entire family can be considered employees. Besides, it doesn't take much to get a business license. There are even public safety entities on the biz band (FDs and EMS services are considered businesses, too). The main cost will be for coordination. You will have to contact PCIA for a coordinated pair. The actual license fee is by comparison small. Joe M. Steve Bosshard (NU5D) wrote: Are you eligible under part 90 to hold a license in the Business Radio Service, ie, 90.75 a 1, statement of eligibility? -- From: KI4AWK [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 5:55 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Advice on Business Band repeater I am a ham who is contemplating building a business-band repeater. I have a few questions that maybe you guys can answer and save me hours of reading and searching. ยท [Steve Bosshard (NU5D)] --- Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.818 / Virus Database: 556 - Release Date: 12/17/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.818 / Virus Database: 556 - Release Date: 12/17/2004 --- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.2 - Release Date: 12/20/2004 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.2 - Release Date: 12/20/2004 Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] antenna question for 2M ham. . .
Sinclair makes excellent dipoles. We switched to them several years ago and never looked back. http://www.sinctech.com/ Mike K6MJU OK. One of the repeaters I help maintain (145.170 located in Connellsville, PA on the mountain) recently lost an antenna in the wind storms that hit us around the beginning of December. Antenna we had on the tower was a Celwave PD340-3 (If you have never seen a 4 bay folded dipole with the top 3/4 of the antenna flapping in the wind, trust me you don't want to. . . Saw the darn thing in the middle of the wind storm blowing straight out side ways from the tower holding on by the harness. . . ) Past experience with trying to find a new replacement shows that Celwave doesn't make this model anymore. (Last summer replacing the antenna on 147.045 for W3PIE) Along the lines of the 4 Bay folded dipole arrays what does anyone recommend? (Familiar with the DB224E antenna) Anyone making these with an internal harness instead of an external harness? (Weather in SW PA is not user friendly especially when putting the antennas on the top of a mountain) If this has been covered in the list prior I apologize, have not had time to look in the archives so if covered prior give me a rough idea of when so I can look. Otherwise, reply on the list or direct to [EMAIL PROTECTED] would be appreciated. Thanks Tony, KA3VOR Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
Well said. It doesn't take a finely tuned sense of humor to see that my comment was meant to be funny. If you (as in anyone) didn't get it immediately, the ;- should have given it away that I wasn't being serious. As for my credentials, I am not a professional comedian, so I can't help you there. I wasn't even voted class clown in high school. I guess I'm not qualified to make a joke in your eyes. I do have my Extra Class ham license, just to prove that I was not demeaning hams. I also have several other licenses, but they really aren't relevant to my post. Oh, and John, if 'most of us' knew what he meant, why do you think he deserves such consideration and John M. and I don't? Maybe MOST of us knew my post was a joke, and you are the one in the minority. Joe M. kc4ih wrote: Thank you John! Those replies are the very reason people hesitate posting to groups such as this. I missed only 2 questions on the 1st class test and none on my advanced ham test. I don't think I have to prove my credentials before posting but there they are. I appreciate everyones input, even the Yahoo group police. Ken --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, WD7F - John in Tucson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that most of us knew what he meant. Everybody just loves a wise ass, as if it's not intimidating enough to get on this reflector and ask a question. I'm really surprised that you two don't have all of your glorious credentials listed in your signature at the end of your postings so that we would know how great you are. de WD7F John in Tucson - Original Message - From: mch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 11:00 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters Maybe it's like a Grade A Ham? ;- Joe M. JOHN MACKEY wrote: Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 2 way currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio broadcast field and possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't know what a FCC 1st class licensed ham is!! -- Original Message -- Received: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:54:16 PM CST From: kc4ih [EMAIL PROTECTED] with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.2 - Release Date: 12/20/2004 Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Digest Number 2865
I don't know about the present, at one time in the Dallas - Ft. Worth Texas area, there were two FM broad cast stations 5 MHz apart ... apparently the amateur community was using a 5.2 MHz spread on the 440 MHz band. If someone in Texas could bring this up to date ... Neil - WA6KLA Al Wolfe wrote: Ken, This can happen when any two transmitters are transmitting at the same time, 600 khz apart. I've seen it happen to 2 meter repeaters when two uhf transmitters 600 khz apart are transmitting nearby when the 2 meter system was up. I've seen it happen near two AM broadcast stations 600 khz apart. That's primarily why in Illinois the six meter repeaters don't use one mhz spacing as there is a high power AM station in Chicago on one mhz. There doesn't need to be any simple harmonic relationship between any of the frequencies involved. I've been told by the experts that this is imposible, that they must be related, but have seen too many first-hand examples that would prove otherwise. Cirulators and isolators can help if installed properly but any rusty or loose bolt or dissimilar metal joint near any of the antennas can cause the problem. It's avery tough situation to deal with, however, as others have said, VHF paging is slowly going away Good luck, Al, K9SI Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:35:35 - From: kc4ih [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters We have 146.04/.64 repeater on a nearby mountain top. It worked great for years with a range of 100 miles or more. Since the phone company and a pager company installed their high power transmitters near the site of the repeater (within 100 yards) the repeater is virtually useless. After much head scratching I believe that the difference in frequency of the pager transmitter of 600 khz is the problem but have no idea how to solve the problem without going to an odd split. The repeater coordinator for this area of Virginia won't even consider that as an option. snip Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Advice on Business Band repeater
Hi John, KI4AWK [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My questions: What kind of cost am I looking at for a repeater pair license? A no nonsense license runs about $350 to $550 complete, depending on what you want. Does each user need a separate license? cost per user? No, each user can operate under the main license if set up properly. Other people can also use your repeater under the right type of license. Can I do the research and find a frequency pair myself, or do I have to go through a coordinator? (if so, what does that cost?) Coordination is probably required. You can suggest a frequency pair to your license ap person or have them research one for you. (We live in a rural area, Thomasville, GA. Finding a pair should not be hard. I am hoping for a pair in the 460 band, as I have a very nice mastr II for that band.) I have been monitoring a specific frequency, and did research through the FCC website on it for users in my area. What else should I do to get started? John Clark - KI4AWK If you don't sneeze at the license amount I mention above, you can Email me off the group and I'll tell you who to contact. It's not rocket science if you're willing to play the game as its currently set up. cheers skipp skipp025 at yahoo.com www.radiowrench.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] CW IDer
Need some direction and advice. Need a inexpensive CW ID device to put on a GMRS repeater(not ashamed to let others know who is responsible) Need a source and recommendation. Willing to purchase a used one if any reader has one for sale. Have one now, but impossible to identify maker to have it reprogrammed Thanks K.Paul Boggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mountain Emergency Communications Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Motorola GM300 Power-up Question
Michael, The GM 300, if I recall correctly, has a small fuse in the main board, towards one of the back corners. Looks like a resistor (green, I think). Your RIB probably blew this fuse. Best, Ricardo, W3/HK4BHA -Original Message- From: mbloom0947 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:10 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Motorola GM300 Power-up Question Subject: Motorola GM300 Model M34GMC29C3A UHF 16-channel Radio The radio was powering on and off ok using front panel volume control- switch. When I plugged a Motorola RIB into it for programming the power blinked off and I can't turn it on. Any suggestions? Michael W7RAT Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] CW IDer
Paul, Comm Spec has a great little one I have used several times in the past. Go to http://www.com-spec.com/id8.htm and check them out. Paul -Original Message- From: K.Paul Boggs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 3:27 PM To: repeater Cc: Repeater-Builder Subject: [Repeater-Builder] CW IDer Need some direction and advice. Need a inexpensive CW ID device to put on a GMRS repeater(not ashamed to let others know who is responsible) Need a source and recommendation. Willing to purchase a used one if any reader has one for sale. Have one now, but impossible to identify maker to have it reprogrammed Thanks K.Paul Boggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mountain Emergency Communications Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] CW IDer
I'm not sure if you got this email from me or not so sending it again. Try this .. see if may help you. http://www.krell.com/amateur/RSSVR/RSSVR.html "K.Paul Boggs" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Need some direction and advice. Need a inexpensiveCW ID device to put on a GMRS repeater(not ashamedto let others know who is responsible) Need a source andrecommendation. Willing to purchase a used one if any readerhas one for sale.Have one now, but impossible to identify maker to have itreprogrammedThanksK.Paul Boggs[EMAIL PROTECTED]Mountain Emergency CommunicationsYahoo! Groups Links* To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] antenna question for 2M ham. . .
Yes they do. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 3:42 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] antenna question for 2M ham. . . Sinclair makes excellent dipoles. We switched to them several years ago and never looked back. http://www.sinctech.com/ Mike K6MJU OK. One of the repeaters I help maintain (145.170 located in Connellsville, PA on the mountain) recently lost an antenna in the wind storms that hit us around the beginning of December. Antenna we had on the tower was a Celwave PD340-3 (If you have never seen a 4 bay folded dipole with the top 3/4 of the antenna flapping in the wind, trust me you don't want to. . . Saw the darn thing in the middle of the wind storm blowing straight out side ways from the tower holding on by the harness. . . ) Past experience with trying to find a new replacement shows that Celwave doesn't make this model anymore. (Last summer replacing the antenna on 147.045 for W3PIE) Along the lines of the 4 Bay folded dipole arrays what does anyone recommend? (Familiar with the DB224E antenna) Anyone making these with an internal harness instead of an external harness? (Weather in SW PA is not user friendly especially when putting the antennas on the top of a mountain) If this has been covered in the list prior I apologize, have not had time to look in the archives so if covered prior give me a rough idea of when so I can look. Otherwise, reply on the list or direct to [EMAIL PROTECTED] would be appreciated. Thanks Tony, KA3VOR Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
re[2]: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager tr
John, Since I am the guy running the IRLP node you refer to, I thought I might take a moment to reply. The equipment now consists solely of Motorola GM300's, not amateur grade equipment. For the last six months or more both the 2m and 440 transmitters have had large cavity filters in place. I believe you may still be thinking of the original experimental equipment used for proof of concept. The 2m cavity is a Sinclair 10 diameter unit. As for the deviation I have measured it with a Motorola Model 2600 service monitor at 6 KHz, about the same as other repeaters in this area. The node can be heard 100 miles away in some directions by mobiles and those same mobiles running 75 watts, about the same as the node transmitter output, can be heard as well. As for the frequency, I'm running a SIMPLEX node on a SIMPLEX frequency. I just thought I'd bring you up to date and suggest that you check your facts next time. Sincerely, Michael Bloom W7RAT Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Non standard CTCSS tones in Amateur service
I know a repeater that required a tone not implemented in the standard 38 would not make a it too popular but is it legal? I was wondering if a pair of these on a rcv link would discorage interference. http://www.com-spec.com/ts64.htm Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem frompager transmitters
It sure is - a mess, that is. Repeated offers to the guy to offer help with a Service Monitor, etc. have gone rejected. He's using a ham dual-bander mobile radio at a high-level site, and some of the garbage noise has caused one of the main local 2-Meter Portland Repeaters to kerchunk continually whenever the IRLP or Echolink (or whatever it's called) system keys up. It's also tied up one of the main local 2-Meter simplex channels that was normally designated for many years as a Remote Base to Remote Base channel. What some people won't do just to be a Repeater Owner. LJ Original Message: - From: JOHN MACKEY [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 11:12:06 -0600 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem frompager transmitters Sounds like a similar problem here in Portland, Oregon. We have a guy running an IRLP node here on what is commonly thought of as 2 meter simplex frequencies. The station is on a broadcast tower with high elevation running about 375 watts ERP!!! Mobiles 100 miles away can clearly hear the IRLP node!! The IRLP node is made from amateur grade RF equipement has had SEVERAL problems with causing interference with the inputs of other repeaters in the area. Attempting to talk to the owner suggesting he put sharp cavity filters on the transmitter resulted in his reply of then I wouldn't be able to be frequency agile. Meanwhile, his deviation has been measured at +/- 9 KHz, and he argues that there is nothing wrong because a telecom service agency measured set his deviation. -- Original Message -- Received: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:23:57 AM CST From: Jim B. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters Except that the vast majority of VHF transmitters/networks weren't really capable of multi-freq on the fly as you describe. At least around here, anyway, they were virtually all Micor PURC stations. And most sites would not have allowed the transmitters to remain without cavites anyway. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL Joe wrote: You will find less and less narrow band cavities on paging transmitters lately. As the paging industry slowly goes into their death spiral of loosing customers, they no longer need 2, 4 or more transmitters at each site to deal with the capacity of pagers out there. What some companies are doing is leaving one transmitter at the site and doing multi-frequencies out of a single transmitter (This is assuming they were all on the same band, 900Mhz for example.) When they multi-frequency a transmitter they need to remove any narrow band filters off the transmitter output. This may explain why some ham repeater sites that were quiet now have noise problems. The irony of it is that you see paging transmitters leaving a site and think that the noise floor is going to go down, only to find that the nose increases tenfold. 73, Joe, K1ike At 09:53 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote: All paging transmitters involved should have narrow bandpass cavities and circulators on their outputs. That's usually considered a must at any site. If the paging company isn't willing to spend the money for that, then they aren't to serious about staying in business. The good news is that VHF common carrier paging is slowly going away, and the remaining frequencies will likely be dropped and released back into the general pool in a few years, or less. There is virtually no VHF paging here in NE Ohio anymore. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Re: CW IDer
Boyd's 1P controller will fit the bill quite nice, plus it will give you a measure of dtmf controll if you want. http://www.bdenterprises.com/products/ skipp K.Paul Boggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Need some direction and advice. Need a inexpensive CW ID device to put on a GMRS repeater(not ashamed to let others know who is responsible) Need a source and recommendation. Willing to purchase a used one if any reader has one for sale. Have one now, but impossible to identify maker to have it reprogrammed Thanks K.Paul Boggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mountain Emergency Communications Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Tin Sound Audio
Is there a way to make the audio coming into the repeater a little more basey, like would adding say a 47 Ohm resister do it. Seems like certain users voices are very tinny sounding. Any thoughts. Mathew Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: re[2]: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager tr
I guess the callsign explains it all. --- mbloom0947 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John, Since I am the guy running the IRLP node you refer to, I thought I might take a moment to reply. The equipment now consists solely of Motorola GM300's, not amateur grade equipment. For the last six months or more both the 2m and 440 transmitters have had large cavity filters in place. I believe you may still be thinking of the original experimental equipment used for proof of concept. The 2m cavity is a Sinclair 10 diameter unit. As for the deviation I have measured it with a Motorola Model 2600 service monitor at 6 KHz, about the same as other repeaters in this area. The node can be heard 100 miles away in some directions by mobiles and those same mobiles running 75 watts, about the same as the node transmitter output, can be heard as well. As for the frequency, I'm running a SIMPLEX node on a SIMPLEX frequency. I just thought I'd bring you up to date and suggest that you check your facts next time. Sincerely, Michael Bloom W7RAT Yahoo! Groups Links http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager tr
6 kHz?!? I hope you're not on a 15 kHz band with a bandwidth of 18 kHz. Joe M. mbloom0947 wrote: As for the deviation I have measured it with a Motorola Model 2600 service monitor at 6 KHz, about the same as other repeaters in this area. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.2 - Release Date: 12/20/2004 Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tin Sound Audio
At 11:00 PM 12/21/2004 -, you wrote: Is there a way to make the audio coming into the repeater a little more basey, like would adding say a 47 Ohm resister do it. Seems like certain users voices are very tinny sounding. Any thoughts. ---Are you running deemphasis? Sounds like you're using a non-deemphasized audio source from your receiver (aka discriminator audio) Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tin Sound Audio
Took the audio from the HI side of the audio pot on the MASTR ER41 receiver. Mathew At 11:00 PM 12/21/2004 -, you wrote: Is there a way to make the audio coming into the repeater a little more basey, like would adding say a 47 Ohm resister do it. Seems like certain users voices are very tinny sounding. Any thoughts. ---Are you running deemphasis? Sounds like you're using a non-deemphasized audio source from your receiver (aka discriminator audio) Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Fw: The 4 candles (this is nice)
Title: Message To: Friend Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 6:04 PM Subject: The 4 candles (this is nice) I received this and loved it. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year This is worth the wait for it to load. Have a Great day. - Original Give it a few minutes to load in! http://i.euniverse.com/funpages/cms_content/2529/4candles.swf Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
First..Don't be so thin skined, that's where political correctness came from. This group can be brutal from time to time, but there's some great help, and a wealth of experiance and knowledge here and everyone here has gotten nailed from the group and has lived through it.SO lighten up. 73 AC0Y --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, kc4ih [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, JOHN MACKEY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 2 way currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio broadcast field and possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't know what a FCC 1st class licensed ham is!! It was about 2 am here when I wrote this last night but If you are the Chief Engineer of a radio station then you should know that anyone prior to 1984 a person had to hold a first class FCC technicians license to work on and repair and operate a radio or TV station. The 1st class and 2nd class were combined in the late 1980s to a general class technicians license and made a lifetime license, not to be confused with the technician class ham license. The fact that the two of us hold an extra class and the other an advanced class ham ticket was not explained but I assumed that it would be understood. That is not the problem, its the repeater intermod. This reply is the reason that I hate to post to a group such as this. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tin Sound Audio
FYI ... In case you need some info on the ER41 receivers ... I have a 2 inch high pile of GE Datafile ER41 Series Receiver info here. 73, Happy Bah Hum Bug, Neil - WA6KLA Mathew Quaife wrote: Took the audio from the HI side of the audio pot on the MASTR ER41 receiver. Mathew At 11:00 PM 12/21/2004 -, you wrote: Is there a way to make the audio coming into the repeater a little more basey, like would adding say a 47 Ohm resister do it. Seems like certain users voices are very tinny sounding. Any thoughts. ---Are you running deemphasis? Sounds like you're using a non-deemphasized audio source from your receiver (aka discriminator audio) Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: The 4 candles (this is nice)
Took about 9 1/2 seconds to load ... Neil Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters
--- Coy Hilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, you should get it right. It has never been a first class Technicians license... Or ony class TECHNICIANS LICENSE. We who had to take the exams to get them knoww what they are/were. I still give exams for the General Radiotelephone License (GROL)from time to time. They were the First Class Radiotelephone License, Or Second Class Radiotelephone License. Oh By the way...Element Three which was the element required for the Second Class license,(Element Three and Four was required for the First)was a serious test of your knowledge of electronic theory. 73 AC0Y The tests were a joke, I passed the first class comercial (all elements on one morinig) when I was about 21 years old. That was around 1971 or so . Study guide was a book that was given to me by a friend that was about 10 years old. I had never seen a TV transmitter and would not know what to do with one if I did. I thought I wanted to get into servicing 2-way radio but never did. The First Class test was about a dollar more to take it if I remember correctly. That extra buck was the only reason I took the first class. Well, it was about an hours drive to whre I had to go to take the test. I don't know how they are now but if they are like the ham exams then anyone that has half a memory could pass them. de KU4PT __ Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: re[2]: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager tr
Hi Michael- Last time you I talked (about 3 months ago) you said you were running amateur grade gear on your IRLP node at the KOIN-TV tower. Apparently you recently changed to commercial grade gear, which is a good thing! Also, the last time you I talked you REFUSED the suggestion of using cavity filters on your transmittes because it would prevent you from being frequency agile. Apparently you decided to change this also? Those are good moves, Michael. Those actions will go a long way to resolving the interference problems that have been associated with your IRLP node. Perhaps, that is all that was needed! But I really think you should re-check your deviation reports. The repeaters in this area are not running 6 KHz deviation. Good amateur practice for practically all voice repeaters is about 4.5 KHz deviation or no more than 5 Khz MAX. Your suggestion of 6 KHz deviation is roughly 20-25% over. On the other hand, that is far better than the 9 KHz deviation for your system (as checked by Dalcomm) as you stated in your previous e-mail to me a few months ago. I have attached that e-mail immediately below. -- Original Message -- Received: 03 September 2004 From: mbloom0947 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear John, Thank you for your response. Actually, we did use a radio communications company called Dalcomm Communications, who are very experienced in this sort of thing and quite well equipped. I checked back with them and learned that the PEAK deviation (not the average) was 9 KHz. Of course the average deviation would depend upon an integration of the signal over time and would be dependent upon the nature of the source audio. I do appreciate your offer to do the measurements and acknowledge that you have made this kind offer in the past. The reason I chose to use Dalcomm was that I wanted the measurements to be made by an independent company with no preconceived notions whose only interest is to provide accurate result. Sincerely Michael Bloom W7RAT -- Original Message -- Received: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:55:31 PM CST From: mbloom0947 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Since I am the guy running the IRLP node you refer to, I thought I might take a moment to reply. The equipment now consists solely of Motorola GM300's, not amateur grade equipment. For the last six months or more both the 2m and 440 transmitters have had large cavity filters in place. I believe you may still be thinking of the original experimental equipment used for proof of concept. The 2m cavity is a Sinclair 10 diameter unit. As for the deviation I have measured it with a Motorola Model 2600 service monitor at 6 KHz, about the same as other repeaters in this area. The node can be heard 100 miles away in some directions by mobiles and those same mobiles running 75 watts, about the same as the node transmitter output, can be heard as well. As for the frequency, I'm running a SIMPLEX node on a SIMPLEX frequency. I just thought I'd bring you up to date and suggest that you check your facts next time. Sincerely, Michael Bloom W7RAT Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Intermod problem from pager transmitters
kc4ih [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After much head scratching I believe that the difference in frequency of the pager transmitter of 600 khz is the problem Head scratching doesn't provide real answers. Are the paging transmitters running circulators? Are they licensed for the rated power (you'd be surprised how many are way over their licensed power). but have no idea how to solve the problem without going to an odd split. The repeater coordinator for this area of Virginia won't even consider that as an option. Simple Install and use a parallel aux receiver until you actually track down the problem(s). Unless you cause a problem elsewhere, the coordinator can pound sand. The transmitter and receiver on the repeater are both Motorola Micor Are you using a preamplifier? GasFet or Bi-polar in the receiver section. We are running a set of Wacom cavities which were bought new and are correctly tuned and the antenna is a Phelps-Dodge Stationmaster. Have you checked the entire system as of late? Reflected power from the Antenna and the Duplexer. Older antennas can be problematic. Duplexer plungers do pit and require checking. Try a simple DC grounded antenna, mounted low with known good reflected power (low SWR). Does the problem go away? When the intermod occurs it is dependant on BOTH pagers transmitting at the same time. If only one pager is transmitting there is no problem. You will need to find where the mix occurs, location wise. The hardest part of the job... This may at first sound unusual but the pagers are in the 150 mhz band and they are exactly 600 kc apart. These transmitter are both 250 watts or more output. Got Circulator? or do they have circulators? My theory is that the 600 kc (difference of the 2 pagers) is mixing with the output of the repeater 146.64 and producing the 146.04 signal, the repeater input frequency. Possible, but not in stone. Never assume a theory until you've first done the homework. We are using sub-audible tone for repeater access and as soon as a station working the repeater drops carrier the repeater drops. The intermod cannot hold up the machine once the tone is removed. You're lucky, there are cases where the intermod can hold up the repeater for some time. Lovely to hear at 3:30 am when you forget to turn the volume down on the radio in the other room. This may be happening in the antenna or hardline connectors prior to the cavities. Every test I have run, and there have been many, supports this conclusion. Or your receiver, or someone else's receiver - transmitter - power amplifier - antenna. The only thing you can first do is make sure it's not caused by/within your own equipment. We are not the only 2 meter repeater that has fallen victim of this problem and in every case we have found two pager transmitters situated 600 kc apart near the repeater. Most of the other machines have been taken off the air, others just put up with it. No one has been able to solve the problem and many technicians have studied it. Anyone actually tried anything? The searches I have done on Google has turned up the stock answer of helical resonators which would apply to 2 meter radios but not repeaters. You might try a High Q Notch Cavity (or cavities) in the repeater antenna system set to notch at F-center of the two paging transmitter frequencies. If you are familiar with the Micor equipment you know that the receiver has excellent helical resonators built in. Which can go right out the window if you're running some type of receiver preamp. (the wrong way). After checking your own system first, you need to open a dialog with the paging companies' technical people after you first verify they are allowed to run 1/4kw. Have any of you ever had this problem and solved it? Any input (pun intended) on this matter would be appreciated. Ken Sturgill, KC4IH Marion VA please reply to ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Get a note book, start writing down what you have and what you can find out about the paging transmitters. Do they have Circulators? Do you? Does the mix go away when your repeater transmitter is terminated into a load. What type coax jumpers are you using? Does the mix happen on a different antenna? Is your antenna dc grounded? Has the duplexer been checked for Reflected power and proper adjustment? A nearby lightning strike can damage the duplexer - receiver - antenna, yadda... yadda. These are all things you need to know. You can bet the noise floor of the hill top can't be great with 500 watts of paging nearby. Write down everything... keeping track of covered ground. We'll be here to comment when you get back to us with your progress. Good luck cheers, skipp skipp025 at yahoo.com www.radiowrench.com/sonic Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to:
