[Repeater-Builder] Re: Tuning duplexers with sweep generator?
Thank-you; it has been an interesting learning exercise for me. For the detector, I actually used a little gadget box circuit that my Dad had made up years ago. When I first found it (unlabeled) in his electronics stuff, I didn't know quite what it was. Like so many other little boxes he had, he used to toss a handfull of components into a small box and use it when he was testing something out. When I was young, they always seemed like magic and mystery. It was only after several years at college that I could even start to figure out the mysterious little circuits inside. The particular setup I used was much like N5ESE's QRP Dummy Load with it's built-in RF Detector (http://www.io.com/~n5fc/dummy3.htm); but in my case, I used a standard "T" connector to combine my Dad's detector and a separate 50 ohm dummy load (also in a gadget box). I stumbled on N5ESE's version when I was trying to convince myself of what my Dad's actually did; especially since Dad's was wired a bit different from the others that I had seen. At Gary Schafer's (K4FMX) recommendation, I also put a 6db pad between the sweep/marker generator and the cavity's input. If you like, I can sketch out the whole test setup; just let me know with an off-group message ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). Enjoy. <<< vern >>>
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Spectrum Repeater Manual
I've scanned the Spectrum Base/Repeater main manual into a pdf file and sent a copy to Mike at the RB web page. You can see if it's available for download yet. If you can't find it yet... email me direct later on and I'll try to get a copy of the same pdf manual to you. The CW Prom ID'er Board is covered in the manual quite well. cheers, skipp skipp025 at yahoo.com > "Daron J. Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I know, I know, the title alone is enough to spark debate. > > > > Like it or not, I need to adjust the ID setup on one. I found the pitch, > speed and level on the ID board, but I don't get the time between ID's. I > moved the other two pots a bit, now the damn thing id's every 3 minutes or > so. If I could find the schematic for the ID board, I'd at least know what > I was up against. I think it is an SCR 77 if I remember right. Separate ID > board in there, if someone has a schematic for it I'd sure appreciate it. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Daron N7HQR > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED](dot)org >
RE: [Repeater-Builder] LMR feedline revisited and revised!
Jeff DePolo, Gary Schafer, Nate Duehr, and Burt Lang, It is certainly interesting to read the widely diversified lack of authoritative information on the subject of "constant impedance" and other descriptions of the impedance characteristics of connectors used for RF, namely PL259, BNC, TNC, type N, SMA, SMB, and the ubiquitous RCA (shortened) phono connector which has or have been presented in these forgoing discussions. There are however in my observation, several individuals who by their experience or knowledge, have contributed factual and important descriptions of the impedance characteristics of RF connectors. They are Jeff DePolo, Gary Schafer, Nate Duehr, and Burt Lang. Burt was right on when he said that a PL-259 was a 35 Ohm connector (because of the Bakelite insulator dielectric) and that with air as a dielectric it results in a 50 Ohm characteristic impedance. The only saving grace for "UHF" connectors is in the use of Teflon dielectric in place of the Bakelite, and use in lower frequency applications. As an engineer employed in the Engineering Dept.of Amphenol-Borg Electronics Corporation in Broadview, IL (Amphenol) during the 1950's and 1960's I was personally involved in the evaluation of many of the RF connector products manufactured by Amphenol and others. Along with my engineering supervisor appointed by the company, Norbert J. Sladek, I was the co-author of many engineering reports which contained the measurements of RF characteristics of which I have performed. The most note-able here of which is "Engineering Report on the VSWR of Series 83 UHF Connectors for the Frequency Range 20-500 Mc/s" by N.J. Sladek and A.B. Crites, dtd September 14, 1955. In it there are many graphs and tables of the measured impedance characteristics and RF signal losses of the PL 259 (Amphenol # 83-1SP) mated to other Series 83 connectors. For those desiring a copy I would suggest requesting a copy of the report done for E.P.A. 340-25-1913 from Amphenol now located in Danbury, Connecticut. It should be noted here that the 83-1SP and mating connectors all used either a Bakelite or Teflon dielectric. (There are "UHF" connectors in the marketplace which use white Nylon or other substances and are lower cost and unsuitable for high frequency use.) At the conclusion of the project Mr. Sladek made the following rule of thumb regarding the use of "UHF" connectors. "Don't use UHF connectors in the UHF band". There were also 25 other reports generated during this time, on projects that were related to RF connector development at Amphenol, in which I participated. The term "constant impedance" used to describe a parameter of an RF connector is to my way of thinking a misnomer as there are no "constant impedances" in the construction of an RF connector, only nominal 50 ohm sections or structures, line sections known as discontinuity capacitances, and higher impedance inductive compensations. All these discontinuities are the result of gaps in the mating of the center conductor and outer conductor, the step up (undercuts in) or down in the dielectric (so called insulator supporting the center conductor) and/or the center conductor, and the difference in center conductor and outer conductor diameters of the junction of the coaxial cable interface to the connector dielectric (sometimes referred to as the bead). Another factor in the design of RF connectors is the reflection from the faces of the dielectric which is the transition which departs from or to another dielectric section ( air to Teflon and back, Teflon to Polyethylene, etc.) These reflections are more important however, in the GHz frequencies. For those who are interested, a discussion of the methods used to achieve a low reflection RF connector for use at higher radio frequencies can be found in " Development of 50 Ohm Low Reflection, Captivated Contact TNC Connectors" by A.B. Crites, R.P. Honn, and N.J. Sladek, dtd February 19, 1958. E.P.A. 340-25-2163. Also see " The Interrelationship Between Dielectrics and The Electrical Properties of Radio Frequency Coaxial Connectors" by N. Sladek, dtd June 1, 1959, for USAF Contract AF33(616)-6243 for the fundamental considerations in the design of RF connectors. I agree with the comments of the BNC connector being inferior to the type N, and I prefer the use of the type N connector where ever and when ever possible for the reasons given. The SMB connector was developed by Amphenol for use on RG-58/U and other similar size Teflon coaxial cables as a lower cost, quick connect / disconnect connector. The SMA was developed by another connector manufacturer as a screw on version. The Motorola, 800 MHz, 100W., Quantar Transmitters uses these SMA connectors. One connector not mentioned is the type C which was developed as an alternative to the type N, having a Teflon dielectric which encompassed the mat
[Repeater-Builder] Re: LMR feedline revisited and revised!
A very interesting read... however, I have a good friend... one of the best RF Engineers I've ever met. Former HP to Aglient guy now working for another big name company doing serious rf and lightwave work. He took some time to out to run through various rf connectors on the companies very high-end test equipment. Something he does at/for his job all the time. A very quick summary of the end results... PL-259 Connectors are not really the UHF horror story people might assume. A sidebar... I didn't see any mention of Epoxy dilectric type PL-259 connectors. If you search the yahoo rfamplifiers group a year or two back... you can find his post in one of the more interesting threads. I don't have the time, nor do I care to debate the subject... but I do agree with my friends testing. Sure there are much better UHF connectors available... but using a good quality PL-250 in the lower UHF Range is really no big deal. cheers, skipp [paste text] > allan crites <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jeff DePolo, Gary Schafer, Nate Duehr, and Burt Lang, > It is certainly interesting to read the widely diversified lack of authoritative information on the subject of "constant impedance" and other descriptions of the impedance characteristics of connectors used for RF, namely PL259, BNC, TNC, type N, SMA, SMB, and the ubiquitous RCA (shortened) phono connector which has or have been presented in these forgoing discussions. > There are however in my observation, several individuals who by their experience or knowledge, have contributed factual and important descriptions of the impedance characteristics of RF connectors. They are Jeff DePolo, Gary Schafer, Nate Duehr, and Burt Lang. Burt was right on when he said that a PL-259 was a 35 Ohm connector (because of the Bakelite insulator dielectric) and that with air as a dielectric it results in a 50 Ohm characteristic impedance. The only saving grace for "UHF" connectors is in the use of Teflon dielectric in place of the Bakelite, and use in lower frequency applications. > As an engineer employed in the Engineering Dept.of Amphenol-Borg Electronics Corporation in Broadview, IL (Amphenol) during the 1950's and 1960's I was personally involved in the evaluation of many of the RF connector products manufactured by Amphenol and others. > Along with my engineering supervisor appointed by the company, Norbert J. Sladek, I was the co-author of many engineering reports which contained the measurements of RF characteristics of which I have performed. > The most note-able here of which is "Engineering Report on the VSWR of Series 83 UHF Connectors for the Frequency Range 20-500 Mc/s" by N.J. Sladek and A.B. Crites, dtd September 14, 1955. > In it there are many graphs and tables of the measured impedance characteristics and RF signal losses of the PL 259 (Amphenol # 83-1SP) mated to other Series 83 connectors. For those desiring a copy I would suggest requesting a copy of the report done for E.P.A. 340-25-1913 from Amphenol now located in Danbury, Connecticut. It should be noted here that the 83-1SP and mating connectors all used either a Bakelite or Teflon dielectric. (There are "UHF" connectors in the marketplace which use white Nylon or other substances and are lower cost and unsuitable for high frequency use.) > At the conclusion of the project Mr. Sladek made the following rule of thumb regarding the use of "UHF" connectors. "Don't use UHF connectors in the UHF band". >There were also 25 other reports generated during this time, on projects that were related to RF connector development at Amphenol, in which I participated. > The term "constant impedance" used to describe a parameter of an RF connector is to my way of thinking a misnomer as there are no "constant impedances" in the construction of an RF connector, only nominal 50 ohm sections or structures, line sections known as discontinuity capacitances, and higher impedance inductive compensations. All these discontinuities are the result of gaps in the mating of the center conductor and outer conductor, the step up (undercuts in) or down in the dielectric (so called insulator supporting the center conductor) and/or the center conductor, and the difference in center conductor and outer conductor diameters of the junction of the coaxial cable interface to the connector dielectric (sometimes referred to as the bead). > Another factor in the design of RF connectors is the reflection from the faces of the dielectric which is the transition which departs from or to another dielectric section ( air to Teflon and back, Teflon to Polyethylene, etc.) These reflections are more important however, in the GHz frequencies. > For those who are interested, a discussion of the methods used to achieve a low reflection RF connector for use at higher radio frequencies can be found in " Development of 50 Ohm Low Reflection, Captivated Contact TNC Connectors" by A.B. Crites, R.P.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LMR feedline revisited and revised!
-Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of skipp025 Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 12:00 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LMR feedline revisited and revised! Ditto! "Engineer-X" has his pooky in a pile and I trust his analysis not to mention I verified a lot of his work. No desire to debate the issue either... 73 Mike Perryman www.k5jmp.us A very interesting read... however, I have a good friend... one of the best RF Engineers I've ever met. Former HP to Aglient guy now working for another big name company doing serious rf and lightwave work. He took some time to out to run through various rf connectors on the companies very high-end test equipment. Something he does at/for his job all the time. A very quick summary of the end results... PL-259 Connectors are not really the UHF horror story people might assume. A sidebar... I didn't see any mention of Epoxy dilectric type PL-259 connectors. If you search the yahoo rfamplifiers group a year or two back... you can find his post in one of the more interesting threads. I don't have the time, nor do I care to debate the subject... but I do agree with my friends testing. Sure there are much better UHF connectors available... but using a good quality PL-250 in the lower UHF Range is really no big deal. cheers, skipp
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LMR feed line revisited and revised!
Hi Skip, Interesting Comments. Have An UHF repeater using PL259 Connectors on the Motorola T1501AL Cavitys, which has UHF connectors on them. There is no Desensing at all. Was thinking of replacing with N type connectors, but on second thought after reading your Comments. Think will not do. Wesley AB8KD-
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LMR feed line revisited and revised!
The Denton TX radio club has 2 repeaters running those same cans. Makes me choke, but like you said, no desense or any other problem that we can see. Richard W W Bazell Jr wrote: > > > Hi Skip, > > Interesting Comments. > Have An UHF repeater using PL259 Connectors on the Motorola T1501AL > Cavitys, which has UHF connectors on them. There is no Desensing at all. > Was thinking of replacing with N type connectors, but on second thought > after reading your Comments. Think will not do. > > Wesley AB8KD- > -- Jay Urish W5GM ARRL Life MemberDenton County ARRL VEC N5ERS VP/Trustee Monitoring 444.850 PL-88.5
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LMR feedline revisited and revised!
In a message dated 4/6/2007 9:01:33 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A very quick summary of the end results... PL-259 Connectors are not really the UHF horror story people might assume. Skipp I agree that the categorical dissing of the electrical characteristics of the PL-259 is unwarranted. Hey, Motorola et al used this series on their UHF equipment for decades. They probably just incorporated the impedance mismatch of this connector series as part of the input or output network of the equipment. I know that Phelps Dodge did exactly that on their UHF sticks that had a PL-259 connection. Also, on long runs in really cold climates, the PL-259 was much more resistant to contact interruption than the original N connector (UG-21) until the N series offered a captive contact version (UG-1185) to deal with this issue. And they sure are a hell of a lot cheaper than what N conectors are costing these days. The silver plated PL-259 versions with a teflon dialectric are not too shabby. The bad news is that they leak like a sieve and without a perfect sealing wrap and a drip loop for insurance, you can contaminate an entire feed line. K7IJ ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LMR feed line revisited and revised!
At 4/6/2007 09:49 AM, you wrote: >Hi Skip, > >Interesting Comments. >Have An UHF repeater using PL259 Connectors on the Motorola T1501AL >Cavitys, which has UHF connectors on them. There is no Desensing at all. Are they silver-plated? Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LMR feed line revisited and revised!
Yes Bob. They are the only ones I use on all my Equipment(Silver Plated) On "T" I try to get Amphenal. They are getting very scarce.Haven't seen an Silver Plated "T" connector however. AB8KD
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LMR feed line revisited and revised!
Thanks Skip. Appreciate the come back.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: LMR feed line revisited and revised!
Motorola would supply the T1500 type cavities with both SO-239 (chassis mount female match to a PL-259) and N-Female chassis mounts... I have both in my colllection. Through 500 MHz, I have no problem using the PL-259 cables and connectors as supplied by Motorola. The nightmare begins at 800MHz when you realize many of the coax adapters and right-angles are really, really bad news. cheers, skipp > Richard W W Bazell Jr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Skipp, > > Interesting Comments. > Have An UHF repeater using PL259 Connectors on the Motorola T1501AL > Cavitys, which has UHF connectors on them. There is no Desensing at all. > Was thinking of replacing with N type connectors, but on second thought > after reading your Comments. Think will not do. > > Wesley AB8KD- >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LMR feed line revisited and revised!
In a message dated 4/6/2007 11:59:32 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The nightmare begins at 800MHz when you realize many of the coax adapters and right-angles are really, really bad news. Are they consistently bad news or does the Z bump vary from connector to connector? ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LMR feed line revisited and revised!
Richard W W Bazell Jr wrote: > Have An UHF repeater using PL259 Connectors on the Motorola T1501AL > Cavitys, which has UHF connectors on them. There is no Desensing at all. > Was thinking of replacing with N type connectors, but on second thought > after reading your Comments. Think will not do. I wouldn't either. Motorola figured in all of the parameters using UHF connectors. Your outcome might be less than expected when changing to another connector. Kevin
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: LMR feed line revisited and revised!
Thanks Kevin. I Know that you & Skip are really sharp.( Thats the word ).take your suggestions to heart. AB8KD
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Duplexer cavity repair
Burt Lang wrote: > Hi Larry > > Remember me from the packet days of NEDA. > > You are confusing E F Johnson with Johanson Corp. E F Johnson do not > make piston trimmers. of that type. The capacitors used in the Sinclair > VHF Q-Circuit (BpBr) cans are 5602 Johanson caps. The key is the very > high Q of these caps. The Q of the cap controls the maximum depth of > the notch. > > Burt VE2BMQ>>> > > Larry Rappaport wrote: >> tomnevue wrote: >>> >>> I bought a Sinclair Q202G 4 can VHF duplexer. The previous owner >>> clearly spent a lot of time playing with the variable capacitors. 2 are >>> totally ruined and I suspect the other 2 are damaged because I can't >>> get a notch depth below 60db and it's not stable. These are porcelain >>> (white glass) piston style marked MAV05A30. Can anyone help me with >>> some replacements or source of supply? Any help is appreciated. Tom >>> W2MN >> >> Maybe I can help. They were made by E. F. Johnson (don't know if they >> still make them), and I still might have a couple of them. The >> problem is I might have trouble finding them as I bought about a dozen >> some 15 years ago, but I'll look. They were ridiculously expensive, >> about US$18-20 each as I recall as they are porcelain and gold. Shoot >> me an email off-list. If I have any, you can have them. Hi Burt, Sure I remember you! And yes, you are right, it was Johanson Corp! Yes, I remember that Q is very important - that is why they are gold-plated ceramic piston trimmers. Well, we never heard back from the guy, so I guess it doesn't matter. 73 -- Larry W1HJF rapp at lmr dot com
[Repeater-Builder] manuals
Hi folks, I am new in the group I am from Colombia and I am Electronic Engineer between my new functions I have manager a Motorola repeater CDR700. Can somebody help me about where I can find the manuals of the repeater and information how I do the calculation of RF loss. Thanks in advance, Regards Hector Solarte - Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
[Repeater-Builder] N Connector Motorola T1500 cavities
Re: N Connector Motorola T1500 cavities If those N connector cavities make you crazy... send them on down to me Larry and I'll make sure they don't bother you anymore. :-) s. [paste] Five or six years ago, I bought a whole pickup truck load of surplus 4-cavity Motorola T1504A UHF duplexers. All the ones I had ever seen before this batch used SO-239 female connectors with PL-259s on the interconnect cables, as shown in the manual. This big lot was all Type "N" connectors throughout. I don't know if they were a special order or if the customers changed everything from UHF to Type "N" connectors for some reason. I've also seen some of these at Dayton over the years. The model numbers didn't indicate -SP or anything special. They still are working fine. LJ
[Repeater-Builder] Wanted HP-5381A 80 MHz Freq Counter schematic
Hi all, My old 80 MHz HP frequency counter shot craps, (Lites, but erratic display). Does anyone have a link or scan of the schematic and possibly a parts list for the HP-5381A? Some of the IC's are factory numbered parts, I have not looked at the NTE/SK/ECG crosses yet, no schematic :-( If you want to email me off list, use [EMAIL PROTECTED] Any help would be appreciated. TNX JIM
RE: [Repeater-Builder] manuals
Hector, The CDR700 Repeater is simply a desktop cabinet that contains two CDM750 mobile radios, a power supply, a basic repeater controller, and a duplexer. The Service / Programming Manual for the CDR700 is Motorola Publication 6864110R66, available from Motorola Parts for about US$13. You will also need Motorola Customer Programming Software (CPS) HVN9025 to program the radios, along with the appropriate cables. You may need to purchase the Latin American version of CPS. Regarding the calculation of RF loss, please be more specific. Are you asking about RF losses within the repeater system, the transmission line, or as it relates to path losses affecting repeater coverage? 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of HECTOR SOLARTE Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 9:25 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] manuals Hi folks, I am new in the group I am from Colombia and I am Electronic Engineer between my new functions I have manager a Motorola repeater CDR700. Can somebody help me about where I can find the manuals of the repeater and information how I do the calculation of RF loss. Thanks in advance, Regards Hector Solarte
Re: [Repeater-Builder] N Connector Motorola T1500 cavities
At 03:15 PM 4/6/2007, you wrote: >Re: N Connector Motorola T1500 cavities > >If those N connector cavities make you crazy... send them on down to >me Larry and I'll make sure they don't bother you anymore. <---Damn Beat me to it. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of the world famous RC210 Repeater Controller and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Coming soon - the most advanced repeater controller EVER. Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Tuning duplexers with sweep generator?
Why not do an entire article for repeater-builder? Something like "A first-timer's experience at tuning a duplexer" ??? Just write it in Word, put your photos or diagrams in where you want them, then zip up the word file and all the raw full-sized images and email it to us Mike WA6ILQ At 08:14 AM 04/06/07, you wrote: >Thank-you; it has been an interesting learning exercise for me. > >For the detector, I actually used a little gadget box circuit that my >Dad had made up years ago. When I first found it (unlabeled) in his >electronics stuff, I didn't know quite what it was. Like so many >other little boxes he had, he used to toss a handfull of components >into a small box and use it when he was testing something out. When I >was young, they always seemed like magic and mystery. It was only >after several years at college that I could even start to figure out >the mysterious little circuits inside. > >The particular setup I used was much like N5ESE's QRP Dummy Load with >it's built-in RF Detector (http://www.io.com/~n5fc/dummy3.htm); but in >my case, I used a standard "T" connector to combine my Dad's detector >and a separate 50 ohm dummy load (also in a gadget box). I stumbled >on N5ESE's version when I was trying to convince myself of what my >Dad's actually did; especially since Dad's was wired a bit different >from the others that I had seen. > >At Gary Schafer's (K4FMX) recommendation, I also put a 6db pad between >the sweep/marker generator and the cavity's input. > >If you like, I can sketch out the whole test setup; just let me know >with an off-group message ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). > >Enjoy. > ><<< vern >>> > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > >
[Repeater-Builder] ID
Does any have the hook up info to add a ID-8 id unit to a Motorola R-100 repeater? thanks John
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: need app note MC145158 for R100
Barry, I sent you a note off-line about the AN980 note I found but no response. Maybe your anti-spam ate it. So I will repeat it here. I found my copy of AN980 but its title is "VHF Narrowband FM Receiver Design Using the MC3362 and the MC3363 Dual Conversion Receivers" dated 1988. It does not sound like what you were asking for. Are you sure about the number? I have an index of Ap Notes and bulletins dated 1989 and I don't see any reference to an "R100 PLL". Can you give me a Motorola MCxx device number? Burt Lang>>> Barry Buelow wrote: > The data sheet I have lists only AN980. > 980 may cross ref others.. > > Barry > > > > > > > --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Burt Lang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Do you by chance have an AN- number? in the 1980s I used to >> subscribe to all the Motorola documents and still have most of them > in a >> box. >> >> Burt VE2BMQ>>> >> >> Barry Buelow wrote: >>> Hello >>> >>> Does anyone have a copy of the Motorola App NOtes for PLL from about >>> 15+ years ago? I'm looking for some info on the R100 PLL. I have a >>> data sheet but the App Notes had much more useful info. >>> >>> I'd take a scanned pdf, paper, whatever.. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Barry w0iy
