[Repeater-Builder] Micor Station Exciter

[georgiaskywarn]

Hi Folks,
Have a problem with a Micor Station tonight.  Have a Micor that was on
409.600T / 407.275R .  It was working great on those freq.s before
pulling the elements and sending them off to ICS.  New elements (old
ones were stolen in route!) with 444.600T / 449.600R in and ready to
go.  Receiver tuned fine. (slugs out awful far) Transmitter is a
little harder. I have gotten all the way down to the exciter output.
(step 11 and 12)  No go.  Not sure if it is just too far down or what.
 The board is TLD5491A3.  Is there any changes or mods need to be done
to make it happen on 444.600mhz?

Thanks,
Robert
ps Will be using a RC210 on this...any suggestions there would be
appreciated :-)

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: TPL amplifier - aka repeater operation at the 250...

[n9wys]

About 2 years ago now (I tnhink) I swapped him a GE 1/4kW VHF tube amp and
power supply for a 110W Micor VHF PA we (Will County EMA) needed for a
transmitter here in NE IL that we use to relay/retransmit EMWIN data on
163.325…  I wonder if he ever put that “flamethrower” online?  We most
certainly were able to get our machine going.

 

  _  

From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of Kevin Custer



About 2 1/2 years ago, Scott and I built Mathew a VHF Micor.  The receiver
was very good, and the transmitter used a IPA that we built from a 110 watt
board.  As I remember, it made 2 watts to drive the external PA to the 150
watt level.





Kevin Custer







In a message dated 10/19/2007 11:56:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


There's a 2 meter system in north central Indiana that I've been told
runs around 150 watts TX output, yet when using a 50 watt mobile with 12
dB SINAD sensitivity around 0.2 µV I could still access it when I wasn't
getting enough return signal to hear the stations talking to
me. Apparently the site noise & receiver noise temperature is very low.
 
Bob NO6B
  

Bob,
I have laid hands on many systems in the area you mentioned. Which one are 
you referring to? I may be able to describe the hardware.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

At 10/20/2007 02:04, you wrote:
 
Mathew's (N9LV).  I thought he would chime in here, but perhaps he's not on 
this list anymore.
 
I did see his repeater 2 1/2 years ago, but the config may have changed 
since then.

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: TPL amplifier - aka repeater operation at the 250...

[Kevin Custer]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

At 10/20/2007 02:04, you wrote:

  
In a message dated 10/19/2007 11:56:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


There's a 2 meter system in north central Indiana that I've been told
runs around 150 watts TX output, yet when using a 50 watt mobile with 12
dB SINAD sensitivity around 0.2 µV I could still access it when I wasn't
getting enough return signal to hear the stations talking to
me. Apparently the site noise & receiver noise temperature is very low.

Bob NO6B
  

Bob,
I have laid hands on many systems in the area you mentioned. Which one are 
you referring to? I may be able to describe the hardware.



Mathew's (N9LV).  I thought he would chime in here, but perhaps he's not on 
this list anymore.


I did see his repeater 2 1/2 years ago, but the config may have changed 
since then.


About 2 1/2 years ago, Scott and I built Mathew a VHF Micor.  The 
receiver was very good, and the transmitter used a IPA that we built 
from a 110 watt board.  As I remember, it made 2 watts to drive the 
external PA to the 150 watt level.


Kevin Custer

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: TPL amplifier - aka repeater operation at the 250 ...

[Mike Morris WA6ILQ]

It's been 15-20 years since I heard this story, but there was (maybe
still is) a big city in Texas where there were two FM broadcast stations
that were exactly 5 mhz apart, and on the same tower.  It was also the
tallest tower in town.  Moto wanted to put some UHF community
repeaters on the tower, and supposedly made the offer to both stations
that they would pay all costs involved in either one moving at least
600khz...
There was an amateur UHF box on that tower, but it used (if I remember
correctly, a 6 mhz offset.
Never heard anything further after that, don't know  if either station did,
but it would be nice to know "the rest of the story".

Mike WA6ILQ

At 11:54 AM 10/20/07, you wrote:
>And I'll add to the  mixes:  FM broadcast separated by 600 kc.
>causing intermod on 2m repeaters.  Don't have it here in town, but AM
>broadcast separated by same.  And at one time-- 152.24/152.84 paging.
>
>Laryn K8TVZ
>
>
>--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Nate Duehr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > This annoying first order stuff can create some bad juju, and it can
> > happen with ANY group of repeaters running the same offset... VHF
> > +-600 KHz splits, UHF +-5 MHz splits...
> > --
> > Nate Duehr, WY0X
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Repeater-Builder] Re: TPL amplifier - aka repeater operation at the 250 ...

[Laryn Lohman]

And I'll add to the  mixes:  FM broadcast separated by 600 kc.
causing intermod on 2m repeaters.  Don't have it here in town, but AM
broadcast separated by same.  And at one time-- 152.24/152.84 paging.

Laryn K8TVZ


--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Nate Duehr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> This annoying first order stuff can create some bad juju, and it can  
> happen with ANY group of repeaters running the same offset... VHF  
> +-600 KHz splits, UHF +-5 MHz splits...
> --
> Nate Duehr, WY0X
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: TPL amplifier - aka repeater operation at the 250...

[no6b]

At 10/20/2007 02:04, you wrote:

>In a message dated 10/19/2007 11:56:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>>There's a 2 meter system in north central Indiana that I've been told
>>runs around 150 watts TX output, yet when using a 50 watt mobile with 12
>>dB SINAD sensitivity around 0.2 µV I could still access it when I wasn't
>>getting enough return signal to hear the stations talking to
>>me. Apparently the site noise & receiver noise temperature is very low.
>>
>>Bob NO6B
>Bob,
>I have laid hands on many systems in the area you mentioned. Which one are 
>you referring to? I may be able to describe the hardware.

Mathew's (N9LV).  I thought he would chime in here, but perhaps he's not on 
this list anymore.

I did see his repeater 2 1/2 years ago, but the config may have changed 
since then.

Bob NO6B

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: TPL amplifier - aka repeater operation at the 250 watt power lev

[Nate Duehr]

On Oct 20, 2007, at 8:15 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Have any FM broadcast TXs up there?  I've noticed a correlation  
> around here
> between their presence & the deafness of all 2 meter repeaters at  
> the same
> site.

Hmmm, how to answer that.  It depends on how you define "up there".  :-)

There's a number of high-powered FM's straight down the hill, less  
than a mile away (another site, lower), and there's both analog and  
digital TV, and paging, and various trunking things (well, one of the  
800 MHz trunk sites moved out, apparently), and tons of hams, and...

Yeah, it's "busy" up there.  But "up there" isn't always on the same  
tower...

--
Nate Duehr, WY0X
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: TPL amplifier - aka repeater operation at the 250 watt power lev

[TGundo 2003]

Yea- Here in the flat lands we get excited about bieng on a tower or structure 
300-500ft! Obviously the big buildings in the city are the tallest places 
around- but they are RF nightmares and usually have high $$$ price tags for 
rent. Most of the systems with tx on those buildings have multiple reciever 
sites because the noise floor in the city makes rx not as good as it should be 
(fun just to drive around downtown with an icom mobile- the s-meter is always 
pinned from the junk floating around and the crappy rx design of the non-moto 
or ge radio) So the rest of us poor hams settle for water towers, apartment 
buildings, things like that. 
   
  Then again, if your lucky enough to land a 300-500 ft tower site you have the 
joy of the hardline expense!
   
  I have two UHF systems. Both are balanced in my opinion, maybe a little on 
the elefant side if anything. One is at 130' agl on a water tower, DB-420 on 
top fed with 7/8" hardline and the TX set at 18 watts into the duplexer- 10 
miles for portables and 25-30 for mobiles is what we get typically. The other 
is at 320' AGL on an old microwave tower. It's also a db-420 on top, 7/8" 
hardline (for now- it's what ma bell used on the orignal install) and a 75W 
micor pa. it gets 15-20 miles for protables and 30-50 miles for mobiles. As I 
said before- it's out in the cornfields and plays better away from the city 
than to the city. The other box is in the suburbs.
   
  Only mountains around here are the landfills;). However- I can be to one of 
my sites any time of year from work in 5 mins and the other from home in 10. No 
4WD required!
   
  In summary- I would estimate systems here, and others can chime in with there 
observations- the better ones get 30-50 mile radius for a good mobile, and the 
average ones get 10-20 mile radius for the same. Onlytime we get 100 miles is 
during a band opening.
   
  Which opens up another can of worms. On VHF, coordination gets you 120 mile 
protection. Most systems cannot do half of that, and here in the northern part 
of the state 2m pairs are full. The IRA has done a great job in the past few 
years of getting everyone taken care of and utilizing the spectrum more 
efficently by working out short space agreements and utilizing full time PL. 
Debate it as you may, the PL requirement DOES help the situation and gives 
everyone a chance to play.
   
  Tom
  W9SRV

Keith McQueen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  I guess it's a different world out here in the wild wild west.  Very few 
machines run more than 30 watts.  Of course with our 10,000+ foot granite 
towers we don't need any more.  Some machines have 100+ mile (radius) coverage.
   
   
  Keith McQueen
  801-224-9460
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   

  -Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
TGundo 2003
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 8:08 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: TPL amplifier - aka repeater operation at 
the 250 watt power lev


  Imagine the fun we have at the Illinois Repeater Association meetings 
between the "Chicago" and "Downstate" guys? It's the same with politics too ;)
   
  Well, the last few meetings have been good, thanks greatly in part to the 
supurb job the IRA has done.
   
  Anyways, I a "downstate Chicago" guy, I live in the farmfields 45 miles south 
of the city. While I will not argue that there are some alligator systems in 
the city...and suburbs
   
  Be careful of acousing any of those machines of being "gluttons". I'm not 
sure which machines you had in mind, but probably the widest coverage 2m 
machine in the city is CFMC on 146.76. They have several reciever sites, and 
run modest power off one of the tallest buildings in the city- 45 miles away 
here at my qth running around mobile they are usually between 1/2 and full 
scale on an icom with a 5/8 nmo on the roof of the surburban. Of course I can 
access the system full quieting, so it's bretty balanced for the users in the 
greater metro area.
   
  Now- during a band opening I'm sure it can put out a good footprint. FYI- 
during an average opening in the morning or evining during the summer we can 
hear the downstate repeaters just fine as well. The corn fields don't stop 
much, the city is a different story. One of my uhf systems is in the cornfields 
south of the city, and it plays much farther to the south than it does to the 
north into the city. (omni antenna on top of a 300' tower) 
   
  In comparason- one of the largest UHF systems in chicago, 16 recieve sites 
last I heard, is on one of the tallest buildings as well, and for the last few 
years has been running on exciter power (4-5 watts) that is being divided to 
three panel antennas (to put the footprint away from the lake), and on 1/3 or 
exciter power at that height from the panel antenna in any given direction it's 
very common to hear the output 70-80 miles away on a mobile with average 
con

[Repeater-Builder] WTB 2C or 5C VHF High band PLL TX ICOM

[kc2bez]

I am looking for a 2C (preferred) or a 5C TX ICOM for a VHF high band
PLL exciter MastrII. Please let me know what you have and the price.

Thanks.
73
Dan KC2BEZ
simmons dot dan at gmail dot com

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: TPL amplifier - aka repeater operation at the 250 watt power lev

[no6b]

At 10/20/2007 02:54, you wrote:


>On the other hand -- the CRAP it HEARS up there... uggh... noise
>floor... ick ick ick. We push the receiver right down to the noise
>floor so the HT users can get in, since it's 21 miles from Downtown
>Denver.
>
>It's quieter up there on UHF -- the UHF at that site works even
>better. :-)

Have any FM broadcast TXs up there?  I've noticed a correlation around here 
between their presence & the deafness of all 2 meter repeaters at the same 
site.

Bob NO6B

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: TPL amplifier - aka repeater operation at the 250 ...

[no6b]

At 10/20/2007 02:38, you wrote:


>Additional to this comment, if there's any passive or active IM mixes
>at the site, cranking up the power on sites where there are any other
>repeaters with the same offset (e.g. other hams) can create serious
>headaches if there are also very strong user input signals present.
>
>More power from one repeater adding to a standard mix of...
>
>Your input
>+/- Your output
>= Negative/Positive offset
>+/- Their output
>= Their input
>
>(Flip the signs as needed.)

If you think that's bad, how about a 2 meter repeater & a paging TX exactly 
5 MHz above the 2 meter output?  Every 440 system on the tower was affected 
even though the paging TX was allegedly just for backfill running only 25 
watts.  Those that duplexed on one antenna were just about unusable, while 
those with large separation between TX & RX antennas did better.  One lucky 
guy with a RX antenna ~20 above the top of the tower was almost immune.

We never could solve that one, as it would source from just about any 
metal-to-metal junction at the site: air conditioner housing seams, conduit 
joints, tower joints, etc.  For a while we had to have the 2 meter repeater 
run upside down from the bandplan to prevent the mix from being generated 
on all the 440 inputs, but eventually the paging TX went away, & the site's 
been very clean ever since.

Bob NO6B

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Kenwood TKR-850 Driver FET Wanted

[Mike Mullarkey]

Jim,

 

Is this repeater and version 1 or a version 2 repeater. The version 1 would
be covered under a factory repair possibly.

 

 

 

Mike Mullarkey (K7PFJ)

 

  _  

From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Cicirello
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 1:53 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Kenwood TKR-850 Driver FET Wanted

 

I am looking for a Driver FET, Q4, Part # PD55008S FOR A Kenwood
TKR-850 UHF.
If anyone has one in stock or can point me in the right direction,
please contact me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]  com. The
number shown on the parts
list doesn't come up on their website.
73 Jim KA2AJH



 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: TPL amplifier - aka repeater operation at the 250 watt power lev

[Nate Duehr]

On Oct 19, 2007, at 10:49 PM, Keith McQueen wrote:

> I guess it's a different world out here in the wild wild west.   
> Very few machines run more than 30 watts.  Of course with our 10,000 
> + foot granite towers we don't need any more.  Some machines have  
> 100+ mile (radius) coverage.

Have HAAT, will travel!  :-)

Our highest-coverage VHF repeater puts a whopping 11W to the  
antenna.  It lives at 11,440' MSL, about 5000' HAAT.

It has a coverage radius for 50W mobiles of about 150 miles.  50  
miles for HT's, generally.

It covers I-70 at the Eisenhower Tunnel to the west, to almost Limon,  
CO on I-70 to the east.  Just south of Cheyenne, WY on I-25 to just  
north of Monument, CO on I-25 to the south.

It's nice having them thar' hills, ain't it?  ;-)

On the other hand -- the CRAP it HEARS up there... uggh... noise  
floor... ick ick ick.  We push the receiver right down to the noise  
floor so the HT users can get in, since it's 21 miles from Downtown  
Denver.

It's quieter up there on UHF -- the UHF at that site works even  
better.  :-)

But there's trade-offs... I'm jealous of a friend in Indianapolis who  
can get to his repeater year-round (no snowbanks bigger than the  
vehicle) and it's 5 minutes from his house (closest repeater site for  
me is a 40 minute drive in the mountains in good weather!).

Such fun.  Good stuff.

--
Nate Duehr, WY0X
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: TPL amplifier - aka repeater operation at the 250 ...

[Nate Duehr]

On Oct 19, 2007, at 3:30 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> There is an additional factor that can cause deterioration of  
> repeater coverage when PA power
> is significantly increased. It's broadband noise. Increasing PA  
> power increases the intensity
> and coverage of the induction field which risks stimulating close  
> aboard rusty joints and even
> dissimilar mental joints into behaving like broadband generators  
> which will end up as noise on
> your own receiver channel. It doesn't help that it also ends up on  
> every other receiver channel
> at the site. The potential consequence is to turn the repeater into  
> an alligator. And adding
> additional cavities to the receiver and/or the transmitter is an  
> exercise in futility because the
> junk you experience is dead on-channel.  Sure, some sites may be  
> well enough maintained
> to preclude this result, but the maintenance at my site has dropped  
> to just about zero in
> recent years and cranking up power would produce a cure that's  
> worse than the disease.
>
> Bruce K7IJ

Additional to this comment, if there's any passive or active IM mixes  
at the site, cranking up the power on sites where there are any other  
repeaters with the same offset (e.g. other hams) can create serious  
headaches if there are also very strong user input signals present.

More power from one repeater adding to a standard mix of...

 Your input
+/-   Your output
=   Negative/Positive offset
+/- Their output
=   Their input

(Flip the signs as needed.)

Here's an example just sticking in two local repeaters that are  
experiencing a problem when high-level input signals hit one of  
them... just as an example, but any frequencies will work...

  442.575 input
-447.575 output

-  5.000 MHz
+449.350 output

  444.350 input

In the local case, something at the site is actively amplifying the  
442.575 input -- it takes very little power from very far away to get  
the mix started.  The two repeaters have to be on-air at the same  
time, of course, because the outputs are part of any mix like this.   
Gotta go find it.  We can get it to happen with another 447.xxx  
repeater's input at the site, also, and there's relatively new  
reports of two 449.xxx repeaters bothering each other, also.

This annoying first order stuff can create some bad juju, and it can  
happen with ANY group of repeaters running the same offset... VHF  
+-600 KHz splits, UHF +-5 MHz splits...

Add in someone running without an isolator and/or some other active  
(versus passive) junction/amplification of the input signal... we're  
not sure yet.  (A 10W signal into a 10dB Yagi from almost 20 miles  
away is enough to start it.  Lovely, eh?)

Passive IM + Big Power = Big bad mess for all, not just you.

The joy of hunting mixes and mixing sources.  (Sigh...)

--
Nate Duehr, WY0X
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: TPL amplifier - aka repeater operation at the 250...

[N9LLO]

 
In a message dated 10/19/2007 11:56:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

There's a 2 meter system in north central Indiana that I've been told  
runs around 150 watts TX output, yet when using a 50 watt mobile with 12  
dB SINAD sensitivity around 0.2 µV I could still access it when I wasn't  
getting enough return signal to hear the stations talking to 
me.  Apparently the site noise & receiver noise temperature is very  low.

Bob NO6B



Bob,
I have laid hands on many systems in the area you mentioned. Which one are  
you referring to? I may be able to describe the hardware.
Chris
N9LLO



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