Re: [Repeater-Builder] FSK for Link IDs
Back in the early 1970s, a local repeater used a slow-turning wheel and a roller microswitch to key a PL encoder for their CW ID. It was barely audible in most radios, but it got the job done. Of course, this was back in the days when repeaters didn't have or need coded squelch encode or decode, so it didn't conflict with normal repeater operation. It probably ran at 10wpm and the power to the encoder was switched on and off, so the reed took some time to start and stop, giving it a nice rise and fall time that smoothed the transitions. You could do something similar as long as it didn't interfere with any existing CTCSS/DCS encode signal. This might be easier to deal with than true FSK. If the CW ID tone generation is done with an external oscillator, then the logic signal driving it would be exactly what you want: FSK. If it's all done with a microprocessor, then you'd probably be better off using something external to do all the work. Bob M. == --- Paul Plack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone on the list adapted a modern controller for frequency-shift keying? I'm brainstorming options for an IRLP node. I have an Scom 7K. I'd like to experiment with using FSK IDs to keep them inaudible for FM users, but legal, during in-band downlinking. This will require keying a DC voltage for insertion at the appropriate point in the transmitter. Macros to key a logic output might work, but would tie up execution of other commands. A separate hardware keyer, enabled by a logic output, would also work, but that's more parts. I'd like to be able to turn FSK IDs off when not needed, and avoid hacking up the controller. Any thoughts? 73, Paul, AE4KR Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Needed: MSF-5000 Green TEE Cable
The stock MSF brain was designed for commercial use and runs the IDer every 15 minutes. If that parameter was changeable the unit would be legal under the amateur rules only as long as you had a way to remotely shut it off (maybe a digital output from the controller on another repeater at the same site?). The MSF brain is also very inflexible - you can't change the IDer content, tone frequency, etc. For example, one local repeater announces the AC power failure by speaking Main Power Fail when the AC goes away, tags a BATT to the end of the regular IDer, and shortens the normal carrier delay (hang-in timer) from 2 seconds to 1 second. Personally, I'd set up the MSF as a full duplex continuous duty base station with no internal IDer and interface an Arcom, NHRC, S-com, CAT or a RLC into the unit and let it handle the control, repeat audio, IDer, etc (just like it was designed to). Everybody has a controller they love, and in some people it's a topic that gets as passionate as religion. Some people like Link (RLC), others like Arcom, Scom, NHRC or ACC, others homebrew theirs. Others buy one and then rewrite the firmware (like on a Palomar Telcom). I think my next purchase is going to be an ICS Linker controller (surprisingly cheap for what you get) and do some experimenting with it. Everyone I've talked to love them, one guy I know has bought five, and I'd like to get some hands-on experience with them. I've used a repeater that has one in it (a GE M2) and the audio sounds absolutely great (if the carrier delay and IDer wasn't there you'd think it was simplex). Mike WA6ILQ. At 08:05 PM 11/26/07, you wrote: What do you need a cwid circuit for? Charles Mumphrey Kc5ozh wrote: Rod! It has arrived!!! I will take some physical measurements and post to the group. I still have to get the eproms programmed, filters tuned, and figure out a CW ID circuit for my call every TEN minutes during useage. Piece of Cake! Everything else is functioning, hopefully on the air by the first week in January! I will advise when I get this machine online. Thank You Rod, again, for all your support. Rowlett R.A.C.E.S. also send their Thanks. '73 Charlie Kc5ozh It is not the class of license the Amateur holds, but the class of the Amateur that holds the license. Charles Mumphrey Amateur Radio Station Kc5ozh Repeater System: Rowlett Main: 441.325 MHz + 162.2 Dallas: 441.950 MHz + 162.2 Rowlett II: 441.950 MHz + 110.9 Rowlett R.A.C.E.S. Unit 823 http://www.CharliesElectronics.com http://www.CharliesElectronics.com Original Message Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Needed: MSF-5000 Green TEE Cable From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:rrath%40charter.net Date: Wed, November 14, 2007 11:36 pm To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:rrath%40charter.net Hello to the Group! I have seen this subject come up many times here on our list. Now, looks like I am in need also! I have acquired an analog MSF-5000 with a missing TEE Cable. I plan on using one antenna for this repeater, and hook back original to the internal filter/duplexer and receiver. I was wondering if anyone has had efficient results with making a replacement Combining TLE5732A TEE Cable, instead of paying Mama Mo the suggested retail 214 dollars for one of the 16, NOS, they have left. Let me look in my stuff, I think I saw one the other day. I will get back with you tomorrow. If I do have one its yours. Rod kc7vqr -- Jay Urish W5GM ARRL Life MemberDenton County ARRL VEC N5ERS VP/Trustee Monitoring 444.850 PL-88.5 Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Needed: MSF-5000 Green TEE Cable
I seem to recall that the suitcase programmer allowed me to set id time at 10min. Content is also adjustable..How else would you put your callsign in? Mike Morris WA6ILQ wrote: The stock MSF brain was designed for commercial use and runs the IDer every 15 minutes. If that parameter was changeable the unit would be legal under the amateur rules only as long as you had a way to remotely shut it off (maybe a digital output from the controller on another repeater at the same site?). The MSF brain is also very inflexible - you can't change the IDer content, tone frequency, etc. For example, one local repeater announces the AC power failure by speaking Main Power Fail when the AC goes away, tags a BATT to the end of the regular IDer, and shortens the normal carrier delay (hang-in timer) from 2 seconds to 1 second. Personally, I'd set up the MSF as a full duplex continuous duty base station with no internal IDer and interface an Arcom, NHRC, S-com, CAT or a RLC into the unit and let it handle the control, repeat audio, IDer, etc (just like it was designed to). Everybody has a controller they love, and in some people it's a topic that gets as passionate as religion. Some people like Link (RLC), others like Arcom, Scom, NHRC or ACC, others homebrew theirs. Others buy one and then rewrite the firmware (like on a Palomar Telcom). I think my next purchase is going to be an ICS Linker controller (surprisingly cheap for what you get) and do some experimenting with it. Everyone I've talked to love them, one guy I know has bought five, and I'd like to get some hands-on experience with them. I've used a repeater that has one in it (a GE M2) and the audio sounds absolutely great (if the carrier delay and IDer wasn't there you'd think it was simplex). Mike WA6ILQ. At 08:05 PM 11/26/07, you wrote: What do you need a cwid circuit for? Charles Mumphrey Kc5ozh wrote: Rod! It has arrived!!! I will take some physical measurements and post to the group. I still have to get the eproms programmed, filters tuned, and figure out a CW ID circuit for my call every TEN minutes during useage. Piece of Cake! Everything else is functioning, hopefully on the air by the first week in January! I will advise when I get this machine online. Thank You Rod, again, for all your support. Rowlett R.A.C.E.S. also send their Thanks. '73 Charlie Kc5ozh It is not the class of license the Amateur holds, but the class of the Amateur that holds the license. Charles Mumphrey Amateur Radio Station Kc5ozh Repeater System: Rowlett Main: 441.325 MHz + 162.2 Dallas: 441.950 MHz + 162.2 Rowlett II: 441.950 MHz + 110.9 Rowlett R.A.C.E.S. Unit 823 http://www.CharliesElectronics.com http://www.CharliesElectronics.com http://www.CharliesElectronics.com http://www.CharliesElectronics.com Original Message Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Needed: MSF-5000 Green TEE Cable From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:rrath%40charter.net mailto:rrath%40charter.net Date: Wed, November 14, 2007 11:36 pm To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:rrath%40charter.net mailto:rrath%40charter.net Hello to the Group! I have seen this subject come up many times here on our list. Now, looks like I am in need also! I have acquired an analog MSF-5000 with a missing TEE Cable. I plan on using one antenna for this repeater, and hook back original to the internal filter/duplexer and receiver. I was wondering if anyone has had efficient results with making a replacement Combining TLE5732A TEE Cable, instead of paying Mama Mo the suggested retail 214 dollars for one of the 16, NOS, they have left. Let me look in my stuff, I think I saw one the other day. I will get back with you tomorrow. If I do have one its yours. Rod kc7vqr -- Jay Urish W5GM ARRL Life Member Denton County ARRL VEC N5ERS VP/Trustee Monitoring 444.850 PL-88.5 Yahoo! Groups Links -- Jay Urish W5GM ARRL Life MemberDenton County ARRL VEC N5ERS VP/Trustee Monitoring 444.850 PL-88.5
RE: [Repeater-Builder] FSK for Link IDs
Has anyone on the list adapted a modern controller for frequency-shift keying? I've taken a CWID'er and, combined with an LM386 audio amp, did collector modulated CW for link ID'ing by AC-coupling the CW audio into the power control circuitry. In broadcast we do FSK ID'ing, as well as MCW/AM, on FM translators. Works nice, and, when done right, isn't audible on an FM receiver. --- Jeff
Re: [Repeater-Builder] FSK for Link IDs
Paul, Most modern controllers put out tone CW for F2, FM modulated CW (technologically not legal ID), for IDing the repeater. This same output is most often used for the other tones such as tail beeps, response tones, etc. If it were used only for ID then could build a tone decoder or just comparator to turn on/off a switch, relay or preferable transistor, connected to a netting cap on the tx LO to FSK the tx. I have in the past done real CW on/off keying with a AUX logic output so one could CW ID for a beacon, but I changed the software in the controller for this. Software opens so much up to a controller with little hardware needed. Unless you have direct access to the ID, a diode prog type or the software, you will have some difficulty. If you get one of the CW only IDers such as the Comm Spec version you could use these to do your keying. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Paul Plack [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/11/27 Tue AM 12:25:31 CST To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] FSK for Link IDs Has anyone on the list adapted a modern controller for frequency-shift keying? I'm brainstorming options for an IRLP node. I have an Scom 7K. I'd like to experiment with using FSK IDs to keep them inaudible for FM users, but legal, during in-band downlinking. This will require keying a DC voltage for insertion at the appropriate point in the transmitter. Macros to key a logic output might work, but would tie up execution of other commands. A separate hardware keyer, enabled by a logic output, would also work, but that's more parts. I'd like to be able to turn FSK IDs off when not needed, and avoid hacking up the controller. Any thoughts? 73,Paul, AE4KR Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
[Repeater-Builder] Results of ARRL D-STAR Web Survey
ARRLWeb Survey Results Poll date: November 16, 2007 Do you have any active D-STAR systems in your area? Yes, several 21.9 % (611) Yes, one 11.9 % (331) No, but one is going on the air soon 3.4 % (96) No, but we're in the planning stages 3.5 % (98) No 43.0 % (1200) I've never heard of it. What is D-STAR? 16.2 % (453) Total votes: 2789 Note: You may vote only once. This ARRLWeb poll is not scientific and reflects the opinions of only those ARRLWeb users who have chosen to participate. The results cannot be assumed to represent the opinions of the amateur community as a whole, or of the ARRL. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: [Repeater-Builder] FSK for Link IDs
Ron, as far as I can tell from Part 97, ID may be done with any legal emission mode for the frequency, and tone-modulated CW and FSK are both legal, so long as bandwidth limits are observed. FSK must use 1kHz shift. Unlike a beacon station, the controller is expected to do much more than just time IDs, so messing with well-proven software is not on my to-do list. The 7K has its quirks, but in general, the software is very well thought out. I guess I may be overthinking this. The most elegant solution may just be a separate DC keyer fired by a pulse from a logic output on the 7K, which in turn is fired by an ID macro. It's been 10 years since I tinkered with the controller, but I believe there's a way to defeat the tone CWID, and just fire the macro instead. Or, just let the ID run continuously, since it can't be heard by the FM users anyway. There is probably a DC keying line on the tone generator chip which could be jumpered to fire one of the 2N7000 logic output switches, but that board's too nice to start cutting traces! 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: Ron Wright To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:02 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] FSK for Link IDs Paul, Most modern controllers put out tone CW for F2, FM modulated CW (technologically not legal ID), for IDing the repeater. This same output is most often used for the other tones such as tail beeps, response tones, etc. If it were used only for ID then could build a tone decoder or just comparator to turn on/off a switch, relay or preferable transistor, connected to a netting cap on the tx LO to FSK the tx. I have in the past done real CW on/off keying with a AUX logic output so one could CW ID for a beacon, but I changed the software in the controller for this. Software opens so much up to a controller with little hardware needed. Unless you have direct access to the ID, a diode prog type or the software, you will have some difficulty. If you get one of the CW only IDers such as the Comm Spec version you could use these to do your keying. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Paul Plack [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/11/27 Tue AM 12:25:31 CST To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] FSK for Link IDs Has anyone on the list adapted a modern controller for frequency-shift keying? I'm brainstorming options for an IRLP node. I have an Scom 7K. I'd like to experiment with using FSK IDs to keep them inaudible for FM users, but legal, during in-band downlinking. This will require keying a DC voltage for insertion at the appropriate point in the transmitter. Macros to key a logic output might work, but would tie up execution of other commands. A separate hardware keyer, enabled by a logic output, would also work, but that's more parts. I'd like to be able to turn FSK IDs off when not needed, and avoid hacking up the controller. Any thoughts? 73,Paul, AE4KR Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] FSK for Link IDs
Paul, If you read part 97.119 CW can be used for IDing, not MCW as most all repeaters use. However, we've done this for years and there is something in law that if something has been a standard practice for length of time, think 30+ years long enough, then legal, hi. It's been discussed on this and other boards a number of times and is good discussion, hi. Other sevices use different forms of IDing, but we as Hams must follow Part 97. Don't matter how it is done elsewhere. I do know many ATVers use FSK CW for IDing as well as video. RTTY has been very cleaver at it. For what you need the only problem is with other tones the controller will generate, but if the ID don't bother anyone then these other tones should not also. Just having a comparator on the tone generator output that is more like a VOX only VOXing the LO freq with very little hang time would work. The timing would need to be worked out so the on/off time responds quickly enough, but not too fast not responding to the tone wave form. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Paul Plack [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/11/27 Tue AM 07:55:34 CST To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] FSK for Link IDs Ron, as far as I can tell from Part 97, ID may be done with any legal emission mode for the frequency, and tone-modulated CW and FSK are both legal, so long as bandwidth limits are observed. FSK must use 1kHz shift. Unlike a beacon station, the controller is expected to do much more than just time IDs, so messing with well-proven software is not on my to-do list. The 7K has its quirks, but in general, the software is very well thought out. I guess I may be overthinking this. The most elegant solution may just be a separate DC keyer fired by a pulse from a logic output on the 7K, which in turn is fired by an ID macro. It's been 10 years since I tinkered with the controller, but I believe there's a way to defeat the tone CWID, and just fire the macro instead. Or, just let the ID run continuously, since it can't be heard by the FM users anyway. There is probably a DC keying line on the tone generator chip which could be jumpered to fire one of the 2N7000 logic output switches, but that board's too nice to start cutting traces! 73,Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: Ron WrightTo: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:02 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] FSK for Link IDs Paul, Most modern controllers put out tone CW for F2, FM modulated CW (technologically not legal ID), for IDing the repeater. This same output is most often used for the other tones such as tail beeps, response tones, etc. If it were used only for ID then could build a tone decoder or just comparator to turn on/off a switch, relay or preferable transistor, connected to a netting cap on the tx LO to FSK the tx. I have in the past done real CW on/off keying with a AUX logic output so one could CW ID for a beacon, but I changed the software in the controller for this. Software opens so much up to a controller with little hardware needed. Unless you have direct access to the ID, a diode prog type or the software, you will have some difficulty. If you get one of the CW only IDers such as the Comm Spec version you could use these to do your keying. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Paul Plack [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/11/27 Tue AM 12:25:31 CST To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] FSK for Link IDs Has anyone on the list adapted a modern controller for frequency-shift keying? I'm brainstorming options for an IRLP node. I have an Scom 7K. I'd like to experiment with using FSK IDs to keep them inaudible for FM users, but legal, during in-band downlinking. This will require keying a DC voltage for insertion at the appropriate point in the transmitter. Macros to key a logic output might work, but would tie up execution of other commands. A separate hardware keyer, enabled by a logic output, would also work, but that's more parts. I'd like to be able to turn FSK IDs off when not needed, and avoid hacking up the controller. Any thoughts? 73,Paul, AE4KR Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome. Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Needed: MSF-5000 Green TEE Cable
As with many Mot rig software and programming software some have hacked it to change thing like making rigs go into the Ham bands when Mot would not (must state this is often because the rigs were not type accepted for these out of band ops and I personally do not like using equipment not intended for such, but sometimes is the only way). What is the CPU in the MSF5000 controller??? I would think a Mot, but may have a in house number on it. Mot's CPUs usually started with a 6 such as 6800 (very old, but still good 8 bitter), 68701 with internal EPROM/RAM, etc. If known might be able to hack to change some of these parameters. These parameters still might be in code plug, just not changable by Mot programming box. I'd do it this way...makes changes for the engineers easier...never know where some of these things are going. I know here we do not wish to give out Mot or other software so hope not violating a board policy here. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Bob M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/11/27 Tue AM 08:15:35 CST To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Needed: MSF-5000 Green TEE Cable These are the only parameter areas/values that can be programmed via the R1800/1801 suitcase programmer for the MSF5000: 1) Number of Channels 10) Auto ID Call Signs 2) RF Frequency Info 11) Alarm Tones Routing 3) Coded Squelch Info 12) DC Remote Currents 4) P-T-T Timeout Timer 13) MUXBUS Power-Up 5) Repeater Drop-Out Delay 14) Spectra-TAC Info 6) P-T-T Priority Info 15) MCS Station Info 7) Repeater Control16) RA Station Info 8) Receiver Control17) Wire Line Duplex 9) TX Audio / Data Mixing Obviously the CW ID callsign is programmable, but the tone frequency, speed, and ID period are fixed values inside the program EPROM, not the code plug EPROM. With the RSS-programmed stations, you get to choose the callsign, the tone frequency, the CW ID speed, the ID period, holdoff time, etc. Bob M. == --- Jay Urish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I seem to recall that the suitcase programmer allowed me to set id time at 10min. Content is also adjustable..How else would you put your callsign in? Mike Morris WA6ILQ wrote: The stock MSF brain was designed for commercial use and runs the IDer every 15 minutes. If that parameter was changeable the unit would be legal under the amateur rules only as long as you had a way to remotely shut it off (maybe a digital output from the controller on another repeater at the same site?). The MSF brain is also very inflexible - you can't change the IDer content, tone frequency, etc. For example, one local repeater announces the AC power failure by speaking Main Power Fail when the AC goes away, tags a BATT to the end of the regular IDer, and shortens the normal carrier delay (hang-in timer) from 2 seconds to 1 second. Personally, I'd set up the MSF as a full duplex continuous duty base station with no internal IDer and interface an Arcom, NHRC, S-com, CAT or a RLC into the unit and let it handle the control, repeat audio, IDer, etc (just like it was designed to). Everybody has a controller they love, and in some people it's a topic that gets as passionate as religion. Some people like Link (RLC), others like Arcom, Scom, NHRC or ACC, others homebrew theirs. Others buy one and then rewrite the firmware (like on a Palomar Telcom). I think my next purchase is going to be an ICS Linker controller (surprisingly cheap for what you get) and do some experimenting with it. Everyone I've talked to love them, one guy I know has bought five, and I'd like to get some hands-on experience with them. I've used a repeater that has one in it (a GE M2) and the audio sounds absolutely great (if the carrier delay and IDer wasn't there you'd think it was simplex). Mike WA6ILQ. At 08:05 PM 11/26/07, you wrote: What do you need a cwid circuit for? Charles Mumphrey Kc5ozh wrote: Rod! It has arrived!!! I will take some physical measurements and post to the group. I still have to get the eproms programmed, filters tuned, and figure out a CW ID circuit for my call every TEN minutes during useage. Piece of Cake! Everything else is functioning, hopefully on the air by the first week in January! I will advise when I get this machine online. Thank You Rod, again, for all your support. Rowlett R.A.C.E.S. also send their Thanks. '73 Charlie Kc5ozh It is not the class of license the Amateur holds, but the class of the Amateur that holds the license. Charles Mumphrey Amateur Radio Station Kc5ozh Repeater System: Rowlett Main: 441.325 MHz + 162.2 Dallas: 441.950 MHz + 162.2 Rowlett II: 441.950 MHz + 110.9 Rowlett R.A.C.E.S. Unit 823 http://www.CharliesElectronics.com
RE: Re: [Repeater-Builder] FSK for Link IDs
If you read part 97.119 CW can be used for IDing, not MCW as most all repeaters use. 97.119(b)(2) says you can use a phone emission (i.e. voice), in English, to identify. 97.3(c)(5) is the definition for phone, which explicitly specifies MCW for the purposes of performing station identification as being included in the defintion of phone. Ergo, anywhere you can transmit voice, you can also use MCW for identification. --- Jeff WN3A
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Needed: MSF-5000 Green TEE Cable
The analog MSF5000s used MC6803 microprocessors in just about everything: the station itself, the tone remote control card, the MCS unit, etc. Yes, you probably can wade through 8kbytes of program space plus 4kbytes of code plug space and find the data that controls the CW ID speed etc. More power to ya. You can also hack the computer in your car to keep it from shifting out of first gear until you reach 99 miles per hour. Very few people have access to the source code for these systems, much less the ability to make such changes, so all the rest of us can do is live with what we have and work around it. Bob M. == --- Ron Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As with many Mot rig software and programming software some have hacked it to change thing like making rigs go into the Ham bands when Mot would not (must state this is often because the rigs were not type accepted for these out of band ops and I personally do not like using equipment not intended for such, but sometimes is the only way). What is the CPU in the MSF5000 controller??? I would think a Mot, but may have a in house number on it. Mot's CPUs usually started with a 6 such as 6800 (very old, but still good 8 bitter), 68701 with internal EPROM/RAM, etc. If known might be able to hack to change some of these parameters. These parameters still might be in code plug, just not changable by Mot programming box. I'd do it this way...makes changes for the engineers easier...never know where some of these things are going. I know here we do not wish to give out Mot or other software so hope not violating a board policy here. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Bob M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/11/27 Tue AM 08:15:35 CST To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Needed: MSF-5000 Green TEE Cable These are the only parameter areas/values that can be programmed via the R1800/1801 suitcase programmer for the MSF5000: 1) Number of Channels10) Auto ID Call Signs 2) RF Frequency Info 11) Alarm Tones Routing 3) Coded Squelch Info12) DC Remote Currents 4) P-T-T Timeout Timer 13) MUXBUS Power-Up 5) Repeater Drop-Out Delay 14) Spectra-TAC Info 6) P-T-T Priority Info 15) MCS Station Info 7) Repeater Control 16) RA Station Info 8) Receiver Control 17) Wire Line Duplex 9) TX Audio / Data Mixing Obviously the CW ID callsign is programmable, but the tone frequency, speed, and ID period are fixed values inside the program EPROM, not the code plug EPROM. With the RSS-programmed stations, you get to choose the callsign, the tone frequency, the CW ID speed, the ID period, holdoff time, etc. Bob M. == --- Jay Urish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I seem to recall that the suitcase programmer allowed me to set id time at 10min. Content is also adjustable..How else would you put your callsign in? Mike Morris WA6ILQ wrote: The stock MSF brain was designed for commercial use and runs the IDer every 15 minutes. If that parameter was changeable the unit would be legal under the amateur rules only as long as you had a way to remotely shut it off (maybe a digital output from the controller on another repeater at the same site?). The MSF brain is also very inflexible - you can't change the IDer content, tone frequency, etc. For example, one local repeater announces the AC power failure by speaking Main Power Fail when the AC goes away, tags a BATT to the end of the regular IDer, and shortens the normal carrier delay (hang-in timer) from 2 seconds to 1 second. Personally, I'd set up the MSF as a full duplex continuous duty base station with no internal IDer and interface an Arcom, NHRC, S-com, CAT or a RLC into the unit and let it handle the control, repeat audio, IDer, etc (just like it was designed to). Everybody has a controller they love, and in some people it's a topic that gets as passionate as religion. Some people like Link (RLC), others like Arcom, Scom, NHRC or ACC, others homebrew theirs. Others buy one and then rewrite the firmware (like on a Palomar Telcom). I think my next purchase is going to be an ICS Linker controller (surprisingly cheap for what you get) and do some experimenting with it. Everyone I've talked to love them, one guy I know has bought five, and I'd like to get some hands-on experience with them. I've used a repeater that has one in it (a GE M2) and the audio sounds absolutely great (if the carrier delay and IDer wasn't there you'd think it was simplex). Mike WA6ILQ. At 08:05 PM 11/26/07, you wrote: What do you need a cwid circuit for? Charles Mumphrey Kc5ozh wrote: Rod! It has arrived!!! I will take some physical measurements and post to the group. I still have
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Repeater Antenna Choice
Dipole phasing is not easy even for the Decibel 420 type antennas. It is common for very sharp nearfield nulls and cancel areas expecially near and underneath a mountain top mounted antenna. I label the effect something similar to what I call unwanted nearfield/local re-entrant energy. Less of a similar antenna in the case of the DB-408 would have less gain but less close-in and below problematic areas. It would also have a different vertical radiation angle. Using at least one of all the Decibel DB-408 and DB-420 type antennas from a mountain top repeater site... I can tell you first hand there is quite a bit of difference in portable and distant in-building coverage using the higher gain Decibel DB-420 antenna. There is also something to be said for what I call the antenna capture area, which is the shear amount of dipole surface area (metal) spaced up and down many wave-lengths on the tower. In most cases there should never be too much antenna but there can be the wrong antenna for an application and location. One sidebar I noticed in your post... you weren't using a Decibel DB-420 Brand Antenna. The Signals Brand Antenna first used in your system is a different animal indeed. cheers, s. Chuck Kelsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We had a DB-420 style antenna (actually it was made by Signals, but it was folded-dipole design) on our UHF repeater at work. We were constantly having difficulty with portables being able to hit and hold the repeater and they were no more than 1/2 mile out. The local M/A-Com shop kept saying too much antenna. We changed it out to a DB-408 and the problem was corrected. We are in rolling hills and the antenna was about 70' above ground level at a water tank. I plotted the antenna pattern against topographic map data and discovered that the portables were in some deep nulls with the higher-gain antenna. In another instance, a UHF ham repeater on a pretty decent site was using a DB-420 style antenna (I believe it was actually an Antenna Specialists version). It worked great out at the horizon, but closer in mobiles would become noisy and portables were tough. It got changed to a Sinclair 4-element folded dipole, and the improvement was substantial. Slight loss out at the extremes of the coverage area. I'm convinced that bigger isn't always better. You need to use the right antenna for the intended coverage. If all of your users are out at the extremes of where your repeater is located, the highest gain antenna might make more sense. I'd dare say that this usually isn't the case. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Keith, KB7M To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 11:31 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Repeater Antenna Choice The area served by many of our radio sites (we are in Central Utah), sit at approximately a 12 degree downtilt from the sites. Most of these sites are at 3000-4000' AGL. In some cases, we have opted for lower gain antennas to cover close in areas better. We designate repeaters as local or wide area coverage to account for this. Wide area repeaters get high gain antennas to aim for the horizon (about 50-100 miles out), and local area repeaters get lower gain antennas for about 5-20 miles out. In some cases we opt for directional antennas such as corner reflectors or dipole arrays with all elements on one side of the mast when we want to cover the populated areas better at the expense of the back country. -- Keith McQueen [EMAIL PROTECTED] 801-224-9460
[Repeater-Builder] VHF Repeater Antenna Choice
Any comments on the difference between expected antenna patterns and coverage on a DB222 vs. Celwave/RFS PD220? I'm using a PD220 and find the local coverage to be somewhat spotty, but coverage 20 miles away to be excellent. Is this typical of the PD220? Would a DB222 fill local areas any better? --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, skipp025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dipole phasing is not easy even for the Decibel 420 type antennas. It is common for very sharp nearfield nulls and cancel areas expecially near and underneath a mountain top mounted antenna. I label the effect something similar to what I call unwanted nearfield/local re-entrant energy. Less of a similar antenna in the case of the DB-408 would have less gain but less close-in and below problematic areas. It would also have a different vertical radiation angle. Using at least one of all the Decibel DB-408 and DB-420 type antennas from a mountain top repeater site... I can tell you first hand there is quite a bit of difference in portable and distant in-building coverage using the higher gain Decibel DB-420 antenna. There is also something to be said for what I call the antenna capture area, which is the shear amount of dipole surface area (metal) spaced up and down many wave-lengths on the tower. In most cases there should never be too much antenna but there can be the wrong antenna for an application and location. One sidebar I noticed in your post... you weren't using a Decibel DB-420 Brand Antenna. The Signals Brand Antenna first used in your system is a different animal indeed. cheers, s. Chuck Kelsey kelsey@ wrote: We had a DB-420 style antenna (actually it was made by Signals, but it was folded-dipole design) on our UHF repeater at work. We were constantly having difficulty with portables being able to hit and hold the repeater and they were no more than 1/2 mile out. The local M/A-Com shop kept saying too much antenna. We changed it out to a DB-408 and the problem was corrected. We are in rolling hills and the antenna was about 70' above ground level at a water tank. I plotted the antenna pattern against topographic map data and discovered that the portables were in some deep nulls with the higher-gain antenna. In another instance, a UHF ham repeater on a pretty decent site was using a DB-420 style antenna (I believe it was actually an Antenna Specialists version). It worked great out at the horizon, but closer in mobiles would become noisy and portables were tough. It got changed to a Sinclair 4-element folded dipole, and the improvement was substantial. Slight loss out at the extremes of the coverage area. I'm convinced that bigger isn't always better. You need to use the right antenna for the intended coverage. If all of your users are out at the extremes of where your repeater is located, the highest gain antenna might make more sense. I'd dare say that this usually isn't the case. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Keith, KB7M To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 11:31 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Repeater Antenna Choice The area served by many of our radio sites (we are in Central Utah), sit at approximately a 12 degree downtilt from the sites. Most of these sites are at 3000-4000' AGL. In some cases, we have opted for lower gain antennas to cover close in areas better. We designate repeaters as local or wide area coverage to account for this. Wide area repeaters get high gain antennas to aim for the horizon (about 50-100 miles out), and local area repeaters get lower gain antennas for about 5-20 miles out. In some cases we opt for directional antennas such as corner reflectors or dipole arrays with all elements on one side of the mast when we want to cover the populated areas better at the expense of the back country. -- Keith McQueen kb7m@ 801-224-9460
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Receiver overload
David, I had a similar problem with a 2 meter repeater at a high power FM site. When the FM broadcast transmitter was down the front end overload of my receiver (GE mastrII) went away. In my case it turned out to be RF from the FM transmitter floating on the AC power lines and making its way into my repeaters receiver. I added an AC line filter and a LC filter to the 12VDC line and my problem was cured. Perhaps you could try running your receiver on a battery to isolate it from the AC line. Jim KC3LW --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, David Epley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a repeater receiver overload problem I am trying to cure. The repeater is a 900mhz 927.7125/902.7125. There is an FM broadcast station 100 yards away 104.9mhz. The repeater works fine at another site. My transmitter is a Motorola Purc 5000 running 75 watts the receiver is a converted maxtrac 800mhz radio. Duplexers are Telwave BpBr 4 cavity. I have 10 to 12 db degradation when plugged into 3 different antennas on the tower. When I use a 900mhz dish antenna pointed away from broadcast tower I only have 3 db degradation. I have tried 3 different maxtrac receivers, added 2 more BpBr cavities in the receiver side and used 3 pole filters in the receivers with no improvement. Today I looked at the signal level getting to the receiver at 104.9. To my surprise I was getting -8 dbm at the receiver. I believe this level is overloading the front end of my repeater. I was wondering if a stub cut for the broadcast frequency would work. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. David Epley, N9CZV Winchester, Indiana
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Usage of Linked Repeater Systems vs. Stand Alone Repeaters
I'm a Trucker and in my travels it seems that the link systems are about the only place anything is going on I can't tell you how many areas I've been where you open the repeater book, find a bunch of local machines and can't hear or raise a peep out of anyone . On the other hand linked systems like the Win System in California seems to have traffic all the time. Steve ke7ihg On Nov 25, 2007 9:35 AM, Naber, Benjamin L. SPC [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tony, et al I read through many of the comments everyone has posted, all equally reasonable, and justifiable. I would like to comment on this. Back in 2004, June QST or somewhere around that time, a Correspondence article was published by the ARRL entitled Use what we have. To this day, I will make the stand that by going off that statement is what saved my club from getting disbanded. I don't remember all what I wrote, but I do remember that my point was to do just exactly that - use what we have. In my home area in the Black Hills of South Dakota we have three VHF repeaters, now all linked together and a South Dakota State Link that ties users from the west side of the state tying in several repeaters making to someplace in Minnesota. The local repeaters got more use and the link was active when my voice was on it making some noise or the area's special ham that likes to throw his call out at 3AM or... kerchunck them. Everyone does it, although not very often so there's no reason to make a huge fuss. The guys around the area have an evening weather net around 2100hrs on the state link and on the local repeaters in the areas to help keep activity on the machines and let be known the system does exist. The state link is a wonderful but under used system because of statements that have already been said, and at the same time reverse has been said. The other side was said as well, is that there could be too many machines in the local area. Not everyone will have their radios on scan as I do, most seem to have a favorite spot for their group of friends and be happy with it. We had a small ordeal a few years back about the VHF repeaters and the possible complete removal of them and came to quite the bit of controversy. It was mentioned there were too many repeaters for the area, given the local ham populous of about 200 and it may have been the reason for little activity. From what I see, it all boils down to this. Everyone is going to have whatever they like, repeaters and stuff will come and go, but the two main things are these, and these only - Let us use what we have and always be encouraging others to get on the air - new comers, soon to be licensed and those that haven't keyed the mic in a while. Ask them to press the button and make some noise. That's what we came to do in the first place. ~Benjamin, KB9LFZ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Tony L. Sent: Wed 21-Nov-07 18:59 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Usage of Linked Repeater Systems vs. Stand Alone Repeaters Our club operates a RF full-time linked repeater system in metro New York City, currently comprised of four (4) repeaters. We've observed that the addition of a new repeater into the system doesn't always equate to added usage. In fact, we've noticed that many of the linked systems in metro NYC typically aren't as busy as local area stand alone systems. We're puzzled as to why people seem to shy away from most, but not all, of the very wide coverage area systems. The busiest repeaters in our area seem to be the no frills stand alones. Are voice IDs, courtesy tones, and coverage footprints beyond a 25-mile radius just more than people can handle nowadays? Comments anyone? -- KE7IHG
Re: [Repeater-Builder] VHF Repeater Antenna Choice
The PD220 has 5.25dB gain and 18 degrees vertical beamwidth. The DB222 has 3dB gain in the omni configuration, and 36 degrees vertical beamwidth. Vertical beamwidth is measured at the 3dB points on main lobe of the horizontal axis plot, so divide the published number in half and you can easily plot the main lobe pattern on graph paper using the installed height on the tower, and see what might or might not be an issue. | INSTALLED HEIGHT |\ | \ANGLE |\ | \ |\ _|_\___ GROUND The above is a very simplified idea of what you will be plotting. The vertical component is the tower, pick a convienient scale for height. The horizantal component is the ground elevation, be sure to keep the scale the same and add in any hills, valleys etc. as shown on a topo map. ANGLE is 1/2 of the published vertical beamwidth. INSTALLED HEIGHT is an imaginary horizontal line at the base of the antenna (or the center, or the top, it's just a reference line and the ANGLE is measured from it toward GROUND). The point where the line representing ANGLE meets the line representing GROUND is the approximate point where the -3dB point of the main lobe of the antenna will meet the ground. Other minor lobes, reflections etc. will give more close in fill coverage, but for planning and comparison purposes this will give you a good idea of what you might expect. Using the above antenna numbers, the PD220 main lobe will be 9 degrees below the imaginary horizontal line at the antenna base, and the DB-222 will be 18 degrees below the imaginary horizontal line at the antenna base. Therefore, the main lobe of the PD220 will touch down further away from the tower than the main lobe of the DB-222. Depending on the geography this may or may not make a difference in the coverage, it's just one of the many factors to consider. In general, the lower the gain of the antenna, the greater the vertical beamwidth. Just for fun try plotting a quarterwave antenna. The DB-201 ground plane (0dB gain) is speced at 78 degrees vertical beamwidth, thus the main lobe is 39 degrees below the imaginary horizontal line at the antenna base. ;-) BTW using a topo map and plotting radials around the repeater site can be a good way to get to know what things look like from your site. Of course buildings are not shown, but finding the hills and valleys can give you a new perspective on why things do or don't work. Once I had to try and figure out why an 800 MHz control station was not properly getting into a distant repeater. After getting the topo out and locating the repeater and control station and adding in the tower height at both ends of the path, I found that the direct, straight line path was through two hilltops. The station was getting by (poorly) on the indirect reflected path(s) that existed. The only way to solve the problem would have been to relocate the base to the top of the nearest hill. Good luck Milt N3LTQ - Original Message - From: Tony L. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:47 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] VHF Repeater Antenna Choice Any comments on the difference between expected antenna patterns and coverage on a DB222 vs. Celwave/RFS PD220? I'm using a PD220 and find the local coverage to be somewhat spotty, but coverage 20 miles away to be excellent. Is this typical of the PD220? Would a DB222 fill local areas any better? --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, skipp025 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dipole phasing is not easy even for the Decibel 420 type antennas. It is common for very sharp nearfield nulls and cancel areas expecially near and underneath a mountain top mounted antenna. I label the effect something similar to what I call unwanted nearfield/local re-entrant energy. Less of a similar antenna in the case of the DB-408 would have less gain but less close-in and below problematic areas. It would also have a different vertical radiation angle. Using at least one of all the Decibel DB-408 and DB-420 type antennas from a mountain top repeater site... I can tell you first hand there is quite a bit of difference in portable and distant in-building coverage using the higher gain Decibel DB-420 antenna. There is also something to be said for what I call the antenna capture area, which is the shear amount of dipole surface area (metal) spaced up and down many wave-lengths on the tower. In most cases there should never be too much antenna but there can be the wrong antenna for an application and location. One sidebar I noticed in your post... you weren't using a Decibel DB-420 Brand Antenna. The Signals Brand Antenna first used in your system is a different animal indeed. cheers, s. Chuck Kelsey kelsey@ wrote: We had a DB-420 style antenna (actually it was made by Signals, but it was folded-dipole design) on our UHF
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Usage of Linked Repeater Systems vs. Stand Alone Repeaters
Steve, the reason you don't get anyone on the other repeaters is due to you not being known to them. Most repeater users will only talk to ones they know and a different call comes on the repeater they all of a sudden get mic fright and don't answer :) David = From: Steve Stahl [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/11/26 Mon AM 10:08:59 CST To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Usage of Linked Repeater Systems vs. Stand Alone Repeaters I'm a Trucker and in my travels it seems that the link systems are about the only place anything is going on I can't tell you how many areas I've been where you open the repeater book, find a bunch of local machines and can't hear or raise a peep out of anyone . On the other hand linked systems like the Win System in California seems to have traffic all the time. Steve ke7ihg On Nov 25, 2007 9:35 AM, Naber, Benjamin L. SPC [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tony, et al I read through many of the comments everyone has posted, all equally reasonable, and justifiable. I would like to comment on this. Back in 2004, June QST or somewhere around that time, a Correspondence article was published by the ARRL entitled Use what we have. To this day, I will make the stand that by going off that statement is what saved my club from getting disbanded. I don't remember all what I wrote, but I do remember that my point was to do just exactly that - use what we have. In my home area in the Black Hills of South Dakota we have three VHF repeaters, now all linked together and a South Dakota State Link that ties users from the west side of the state tying in several repeaters making to someplace in Minnesota. The local repeaters got more use and the link was active when my voice was on it making some noise or the area's special ham that likes to throw his call out at 3AM or... kerchunck them. Everyone does it, although not very often so there's no reason to make a huge fuss. The guys around the area have an evening weather net around 2100hrs on the state link and on the local repeaters in the areas to help keep activity on the machines and let be known the system does exist. The state link is a wonderful but under used system because of statements that have already been said, and at the same time reverse has been said. The other side was said as well, is that there could be too many machines in the local area. Not everyone will have their radios on scan as I do, most seem to have a favorite spot for their group of friends and be happy with it. We had a small ordeal a few years back about the VHF repeaters and the possible complete removal of them and came to quite the bit of controversy. It was mentioned there were too many repeaters for the area, given the local ham populous of about 200 and it may have been the reason for little activity. From what I see, it all boils down to this. Everyone is going to have whatever they like, repeaters and stuff will come and go, but the two main things are these, and these only - Let us use what we have and always be encouraging others to get on the air - new comers, soon to be licensed and those that haven't keyed the mic in a while. Ask them to press the button and make some noise. That's what we came to do in the first place. ~Benjamin, KB9LFZ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Tony L. Sent: Wed 21-Nov-07 18:59 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Usage of Linked Repeater Systems vs. Stand Alone Repeaters Our club operates a RF full-time linked repeater system in metro New York City, currently comprised of four (4) repeaters. We've observed that the addition of a new repeater into the system doesn't always equate to added usage. In fact, we've noticed that many of the linked systems in metro NYC typically aren't as busy as local area stand alone systems. We're puzzled as to why people seem to shy away from most, but not all, of the very wide coverage area systems. The busiest repeaters in our area seem to be the no frills stand alones. Are voice IDs, courtesy tones, and coverage footprints beyond a 25-mile radius just more than people can handle nowadays? Comments anyone? -- KE7IHG
Re: [Repeater-Builder] FSK for Link IDs
-Original Message- From: Paul Plack [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Nov 27, 2007 7:55 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] FSK for Link IDs Ron, as far as I can tell from Part 97, ID may be done with any legal emission mode for the frequency, and tone-modulated CW and FSK are both legal, so long as bandwidth limits are observed. FSK must use 1kHz shift. Not quite... 97.119(b) states that ID must be done with AN (not ANY) emission mode authorized for the frequency, and then goes on to state that it must be by one of 4 *specific* emission types: (b) The call sign must be transmitted with an emission authorized for the transmitting channel in one of the following ways: (1) By a CW emission. When keyed by an automatic device used only for identification, the speed must not exceed 20 words per minute; (2) By a phone emission in the English language. Use of a phonetic alphabet as an aid for correct station identification is encouraged; (3) By a RTTY emission using a specified digital code when all or part of the communications are transmitted by a RTTY or data emission; (4) By an image emission conforming to the applicable transmission standards, either color or monochrome, of §73.682(a) of the FCC Rules when all or part of the communications are transmitted in the same image emission. I read that as stating that ID *MUST* be by either CW or phone UNLESS all or part of the communication is carried out by RTTY or image emission In other words, for a voice-only link, CW or voice ID are the only legal methods. 73, George, KA3HSW / WQGJ413
Re: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Needed: MSF-5000 Green TEE Cable
Bob, Yes most cannot do this or at least do not have the tools, but some do. A 6803 debugger would convert the op code to at least mnemonics and source code although labels and variables would not be identified. It would take some work to see what is going on, but is doable. A typical programmer would recognize for the most part what is going on. Also if some of the data is read often one can determine what it is knowing what the control does. Such as knowing the ID timer is 15 minutes would be a clue. It could be useful for some. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Bob M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/11/27 Tue AM 10:28:52 CST To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Needed: MSF-5000 Green TEE Cable The analog MSF5000s used MC6803 microprocessors in just about everything: the station itself, the tone remote control card, the MCS unit, etc. Yes, you probably can wade through 8kbytes of program space plus 4kbytes of code plug space and find the data that controls the CW ID speed etc. More power to ya. You can also hack the computer in your car to keep it from shifting out of first gear until you reach 99 miles per hour. Very few people have access to the source code for these systems, much less the ability to make such changes, so all the rest of us can do is live with what we have and work around it. Bob M. == --- Ron Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As with many Mot rig software and programming software some have hacked it to change thing like making rigs go into the Ham bands when Mot would not (must state this is often because the rigs were not type accepted for these out of band ops and I personally do not like using equipment not intended for such, but sometimes is the only way). What is the CPU in the MSF5000 controller??? I would think a Mot, but may have a in house number on it. Mot's CPUs usually started with a 6 such as 6800 (very old, but still good 8 bitter), 68701 with internal EPROM/RAM, etc. If known might be able to hack to change some of these parameters. These parameters still might be in code plug, just not changable by Mot programming box. I'd do it this way...makes changes for the engineers easier...never know where some of these things are going. I know here we do not wish to give out Mot or other software so hope not violating a board policy here. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: Bob M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/11/27 Tue AM 08:15:35 CST To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Needed: MSF-5000 Green TEE Cable These are the only parameter areas/values that can be programmed via the R1800/1801 suitcase programmer for the MSF5000: 1) Number of Channels 10) Auto ID Call Signs 2) RF Frequency Info11) Alarm Tones Routing 3) Coded Squelch Info 12) DC Remote Currents 4) P-T-T Timeout Timer 13) MUXBUS Power-Up 5) Repeater Drop-Out Delay 14) Spectra-TAC Info 6) P-T-T Priority Info 15) MCS Station Info 7) Repeater Control 16) RA Station Info 8) Receiver Control 17) Wire Line Duplex 9) TX Audio / Data Mixing Obviously the CW ID callsign is programmable, but the tone frequency, speed, and ID period are fixed values inside the program EPROM, not the code plug EPROM. With the RSS-programmed stations, you get to choose the callsign, the tone frequency, the CW ID speed, the ID period, holdoff time, etc. Bob M. == --- Jay Urish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I seem to recall that the suitcase programmer allowed me to set id time at 10min. Content is also adjustable..How else would you put your callsign in? Mike Morris WA6ILQ wrote: The stock MSF brain was designed for commercial use and runs the IDer every 15 minutes. If that parameter was changeable the unit would be legal under the amateur rules only as long as you had a way to remotely shut it off (maybe a digital output from the controller on another repeater at the same site?). The MSF brain is also very inflexible - you can't change the IDer content, tone frequency, etc. For example, one local repeater announces the AC power failure by speaking Main Power Fail when the AC goes away, tags a BATT to the end of the regular IDer, and shortens the normal carrier delay (hang-in timer) from 2 seconds to 1 second. Personally, I'd set up the MSF as a full duplex continuous duty base station with no internal IDer and interface an Arcom, NHRC, S-com, CAT or a RLC into the unit and let it handle the control, repeat audio, IDer, etc (just like it was designed to). Everybody has a controller they love, and in some people it's a topic that gets as passionate as religion. Some people like Link (RLC), others like Arcom, Scom, NHRC or ACC, others homebrew theirs. Others buy one and then rewrite the firmware (like
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Needed: MSF-5000 Green TEE Cable
At 05:02 AM 11/27/07, you wrote: I seem to recall that the suitcase programmer allowed me to set id time at 10min. Not according to the info available to me. Content is also adjustable..How else would you put your callsign in? I was referring to dynamic content - like adding (word space)BATT to the IDer under outside control. The system I was referring to in my previous message operates their system from the site battery bank, and uses a wall wart that delivers around 14vDC with no load. They have a trimpot across it which is set to deliver just about 12vDC out with 120vAC in, and it's fed to an analog input. This gives them a pretty good readout of the AC voltage into the system. An alarm threshold at 6v is used as an indication of power failure. Another digital input is wired to dry contacts on a magnetic door switch on the site building entry door, and triggers a DVR track (it plays the Intruder Alert WAV file from an old video game) when triggered, and changes the stock courtesy beep (a Morse E) to a Morse I until reset. Yes, there was a power failure option for an MSF, but the brain in an MSF station was not designed to do the kind of tricks that the average ham comes up with. It was designed for Maximum System Flexibility (hence the marketing name) in the commercial and public safety world and to be as reliable as a 250 pound anvil. Hence my comment that using the MSF as a continuous duty duplex base and adding a n amateur radio repeater controller delivers Maximum System Flexibility for the repeater owner... Mike WA6ILQ Mike Morris WA6ILQ wrote: The stock MSF brain was designed for commercial use and runs the IDer every 15 minutes. If that parameter was changeable the unit would be legal under the amateur rules only as long as you had a way to remotely shut it off (maybe a digital output from the controller on another repeater at the same site?). The MSF brain is also very inflexible - you can't change the IDer content, tone frequency, etc. For example, one local repeater announces the AC power failure by speaking Main Power Fail when the AC goes away, tags a BATT to the end of the regular IDer, and shortens the normal carrier delay (hang-in timer) from 2 seconds to 1 second. Personally, I'd set up the MSF as a full duplex continuous duty base station with no internal IDer and interface an Arcom, NHRC, S-com, CAT or a RLC into the unit and let it handle the control, repeat audio, IDer, etc (just like it was designed to). Everybody has a controller they love, and in some people it's a topic that gets as passionate as religion. Some people like Link (RLC), others like Arcom, Scom, NHRC or ACC, others homebrew theirs. Others buy one and then rewrite the firmware (like on a Palomar Telcom). I think my next purchase is going to be an ICS Linker controller (surprisingly cheap for what you get) and do some experimenting with it. Everyone I've talked to love them, one guy I know has bought five, and I'd like to get some hands-on experience with them. I've used a repeater that has one in it (a GE M2) and the audio sounds absolutely great (if the carrier delay and IDer wasn't there you'd think it was simplex). Mike WA6ILQ.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] MASTR II Mobile Preamp
I've got it in there but I can't tell if it's doing anything. Hopefully we will have the service monitor back tomorrow and I and see if I can get that to tell me more. Vern On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:29:06 -0500 Scott Zimmerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vern, It's just as easy as it looks. Remove the cover that is over the IF/mixer board. Under that shield, towards the outside of the chassis is where the preamp mounts. You may have to remove a shield that is covering the input to the helical resonator assembly. Using the screws removed from that small shield or any other #6-32 x 1/4 screws, mount the preamp to the casting. Attach the power wire to the pin on the IF/mixer board and replace the big shield. Flip the radio over. Plug the Rx connector from the front of the chassis onto the input connector of the preamp. Plug the output cable of the preamp onto the input of the helicals. Now for the fun part: Tune. Using an appropriate tool, tune the slug in the small copper can for best sensitivity. That's it pretty simple. Scott Scott Zimmerman Amateur Radio Call N3XCC 612 Barnett Rd Boswell, PA 15531 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 11:32 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] MASTR II Mobile Preamp Does anyone know where I can find instructions for installing a UHS preamp into a MASTR II and how to tune it? I looks pretty simple but I want to make sure I do it right. Thanks, Vern Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.7/1152 - Release Date: 11/26/2007 10:50 AM
[Repeater-Builder] decibel products DB-4050-wdc-b vhf duplexer info needed
Folks, Looking for cable harness and tuning data for the Decibel Products DB-4050-wdc-b 8 cavity VHF duplexer. This is a 300khz spaced duplexer that is currently on 155mhz, and we need to move it down to 146mhz. Jim at DB Spectra is researching for me as well, but this is a pretty old unit, we think. If any one can provide scans or copies of this data, it would be greatly appreciated.. Thanks! Dave Fortenberry NA6DF
Re: [Repeater-Builder] 20 words per minute
I will remind everyone that this list is not for debating FCC rules. (1) By a CW emission. When keyed by an automatic device used only for identification, the speed must not exceed 20 words per minute; With that in mind, I'll make this comment and I expect it not to generate a reply from the membership. It is here only for reference, and the results may not apply to you in your area. Several years ago I was sent a pink slip from the FCC; someone in Pittsburgh PA complained that I was using a CW ID speed in excess of 20 WPM on one of my repeaters. I replied to the FCC that I was indeed within the rules /as I interpret them:/ Fact: The rules plainly state that when keyed by an automatic device used only for identification the speed must not exceed 20 WPM. 1 - I use a ACC RC-96 repeater controller on the repeater in question; a device that is not only used for identification, but many other functions. 2 - This device is set to automatically identify in synthesized human voice. The only time the device identifies in CW is when the device is *manually* tripped to do so; someone has to key their microphone, or a link become active (by someone keying their microphone), manually forcing CW as the identification method. Because of these two factors, I can legally identify in CW at any speed I feel comfortable with. In fact, only one of the reasons above would have been needed to satisfy the interpretation of the rule. I replied to the slip in the time frame allowed, and have never heard another word. The repeater has identified at 30 WPM for at least 15 years. Kevin Custer W3KKC Trustee of W3WGX - 146.835- Seven Springs PA, that *manually* ID's at 30 WPM...
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] FSK for Link IDs
George, You are correct. From another posting F2 or audio CW or MCW is considered phone and phone can be used for IDing. 73, ron, n9ee/r From: George Henry [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/11/27 Tue PM 01:37:12 CST To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] FSK for Link IDs -Original Message- From: Paul Plack [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Nov 27, 2007 7:55 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] FSK for Link IDs Ron, as far as I can tell from Part 97, ID may be done with any legal emission mode for the frequency, and tone-modulated CW and FSK are both legal, so long as bandwidth limits are observed. FSK must use 1kHz shift. Not quite... 97.119(b) states that ID must be done with AN (not ANY) emission mode authorized for the frequency, and then goes on to state that it must be by one of 4 *specific* emission types: (b) The call sign must be transmitted with an emission authorized for the transmitting channel in one of the following ways: (1) By a CW emission. When keyed by an automatic device used only for identification, the speed must not exceed 20 words per minute; (2) By a phone emission in the English language. Use of a phonetic alphabet as an aid for correct station identification is encouraged; (3) By a RTTY emission using a specified digital code when all or part of the communications are transmitted by a RTTY or data emission; (4) By an image emission conforming to the applicable transmission standards, either color or monochrome, of §73.682(a) of the FCC Rules when all or part of the communications are transmitted in the same image emission. I read that as stating that ID *MUST* be by either CW or phone UNLESS all or part of the communication is carried out by RTTY or image emission In other words, for a voice-only link, CW or voice ID are the only legal methods. 73, George, KA3HSW / WQGJ413 Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome.
