Re: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times

[wa6ilq]

Different situation...  The TS64 handles the reverse burst. The
7330 has a totally configurable encoder built into the
port hardware chipset. When I say totally configurable,
I mean it. For example you can pick the reverse burst angle
and duration.

Mike

At 05:16 PM 12/30/07, you wrote:

(S, so does the ICS Linker IIa with a TS 64 bd :) )

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi Eric,

>The world would be a better place if repeater controller manufacturers
included reverse burst capability...

S -- don't tell anybody, but the 7330 supports both "standard" 
reverse burst formats...  :-)


73,
Bob, WA9FBO




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 rated recipes and 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times

[Brian]

Hi Bob

The Linker IIa has a port just for the TS 64.  The decode and encode can 
be turned on
or off separately.  The TS 64 plug on the Linker IIa also has a 
provision to add an external

filter if desired as the TS 64 filter can be improved upon.

The TS 64 plug sends the input receiver audio to the TS 64 for decode 
and takes the encode signal

from the TS 64 and mixes it in with the TX1 transmit audio.

The TS 64 encode audio is turned on and off by the Linker IIa and how it 
does that depends on
the user programming.  The default encode enabled mode is just to have 
the TS 64 encode follow
RX1 and/or RX2 (again depending on programming).  The Linker IIa can 
also be programmed to
keep the TS 64 encode audio enabled for a programmable amount of time 
after the COS signal(s)
go off.  This allows the reverse burst from the TS 64 to be sent over 
the transmitter.  Details on

the reverse burst from the TS 64 can be found on com spec's website.
http://www.com-spec.com/insheet/ts64inst.pdf

The connections to the plug can be seen using the following link;
http://www.ics-ctrl.com/TS-64_connections.pdf

73
Brian
ka9pmm
ICS




[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

The Linker IIa has audio phase reversal circuitry for outboard CTCSS 
encoders?


Bob NO6B

At 12/30/2007 17:16, you wrote:

>(S, so does the ICS Linker IIa with a TS 64 bd :) )
>
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:

>>
>>Hi Eric,
>>
>> >The world would be a better place if repeater controller manufacturers
>>included reverse burst capability...
>>
>>S -- don't tell anybody, but the 7330 supports both "standard"
>>reverse burst formats... :-)
>>
>>73,
>>Bob, WA9FBO

 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times

[no6b]

The Linker IIa has audio phase reversal circuitry for outboard CTCSS encoders?

Bob NO6B

At 12/30/2007 17:16, you wrote:

>(S, so does the ICS Linker IIa with a TS 64 bd :) )
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>>Hi Eric,
>>
>> >The world would be a better place if repeater controller manufacturers
>>included reverse burst capability...
>>
>>S -- don't tell anybody, but the 7330 supports both "standard" 
>>reverse burst formats...  :-)
>>
>>73,
>>Bob, WA9FBO

Re: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times

[Brian]

(S, so does the ICS Linker IIa with a TS 64 bd :) )

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi Eric,
 
>The world would be a better place if repeater controller manufacturers

included reverse burst capability...
 
S -- don't tell anybody, but the 7330 supports both "standard" 
reverse burst formats...  :-)
 
73,

Bob, WA9FBO




See AOL's top rated recipes 
 and 
easy ways to stay in shape 
 
for winter.
 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times

[scomind]

 
Hi Eric,
 
>The world would be a better place if repeater controller  manufacturers
included reverse burst  capability..i




S -- don't tell anybody, but the 7330 supports both "standard" reverse  
burst formats...  :-)
 
73,
Bob, WA9FBO



**See AOL's top rated recipes 
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304)

RE: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times

[Eric Lemmon]

My measurements were made on an Alinco DR-605T radio which, given the known
deficiencies of the brand, may be unrepresentative of the state of the art.
The TIA Standard 603 is dated December 2004, so it is likely designed to
have rather liberal limits on decoder responses.  I agree that modern DSP
chips are capable of very fast tone recognition, but often those
capabilities are poorly implemented in some transceiver brands.

The TIA standard also gives 250 ms as the maximum time for audio cutoff upon
removal of the CTCSS tone without reverse burst STE, and 50 ms with reverse
burst STE.

The world would be a better place if repeater controller manufacturers
included reverse burst capability...

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
 

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Arck
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 5:50 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times

I'm curious if you're talking mechanical or something else? Except for a
funky MSF5000 I've been beating on (which takes a good 900 ms to decode 1Z),
I've never seen performance as bad as you point out in an electronic type
decoder. Mechanical, sure. 

For example, I have a reedless Mitrek decoder and that puppy is very fast,
even at 67 Hz.

Ken


At 05:04 PM 12/29/2007, you wrote:



Ken,

TIA/EIA-603-C, the international standard for Land Mobile Radio
performance,
states that CTCSS decoder response times may vary between 224
milliseconds
at 67.0 Hz to no more than 150 milliseconds at 100.0 Hz and above.

I have measured response times of 80 milliseconds in some radios to
tones of
250.3 Hz, when the response at 67.0 Hz was close to 200
milliseconds. So,
you are correct that the difference in response times between low
and high
tones can be measured in microseconds- in my experience the
difference can
be 120,000 microseconds and still meet the spec.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY


-Original Message-

Ken Arck wrote:
>
> At 02:29 PM 12/29/2007, you wrote:
> <Nope. A delay board won't do a thing for the decode pickup
time
> and probably not for the release time either.
>
> And a using a higher tone probably won't help either. You're
talking
> microseconds in difference between a tone at the low range and one
at
> the top end.
>
> Ken





--
President and CTO - Arcom Communications
Makers of repeater controllers and accessories.
http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ <http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/> 
Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and
we offer complete repeater packages!
AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000
http://www.irlp.net <http://www.irlp.net/>  
"We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!"

 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times

[Ken Arck]

I'm curious if you're talking mechanical or something else? Except 
for a funky MSF5000 I've been beating on (which takes a good 900 ms 
to decode 1Z), I've never seen performance as bad as you point out in 
an electronic type decoder. Mechanical, sure.


For example, I have a reedless Mitrek decoder and that puppy is very 
fast, even at 67 Hz.


Ken


At 05:04 PM 12/29/2007, you wrote:


Ken,

TIA/EIA-603-C, the international standard for Land Mobile Radio performance,
states that CTCSS decoder response times may vary between 224 milliseconds
at 67.0 Hz to no more than 150 milliseconds at 100.0 Hz and above.

I have measured response times of 80 milliseconds in some radios to tones of
250.3 Hz, when the response at 67.0 Hz was close to 200 milliseconds. So,
you are correct that the difference in response times between low and high
tones can be measured in microseconds- in my experience the difference can
be 120,000 microseconds and still meet the spec.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY


-Original Message-

Ken Arck wrote:
>
> At 02:29 PM 12/29/2007, you wrote:
>  and probably not for the release time either.
>
> And a using a higher tone probably won't help either. You're talking
> microseconds in difference between a tone at the low range and one at
> the top end.
>
> Ken




--
President and CTO - Arcom Communications
Makers of repeater controllers and accessories.
http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/
Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and
we offer complete repeater packages!
AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000
http://www.irlp.net
"We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!"

[Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times

[Eric Lemmon]

Ken,

TIA/EIA-603-C, the international standard for Land Mobile Radio performance,
states that CTCSS decoder response times may vary between 224 milliseconds
at 67.0 Hz to no more than 150 milliseconds at 100.0 Hz and above.

I have measured response times of 80 milliseconds in some radios to tones of
250.3 Hz, when the response at 67.0 Hz was close to 200 milliseconds.  So,
you are correct that the difference in response times between low and high
tones can be measured in microseconds- in my experience the difference can
be 120,000 microseconds and still meet the spec.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
 

-Original Message-

Ken Arck wrote:
>
> At 02:29 PM 12/29/2007, you wrote:
>  and probably not for the release time either.
>
> And a using a higher tone probably won't help either. You're talking
> microseconds in difference between a tone at the low range and one at
> the top end.
>
> Ken

Re: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times - General Information

[Eric Lemmon]

Mark,

Yes, they do.  Just search for "telecommunications industry
association."  Here's the link for TIA-603-B:

<http://www.tiaonline.org/standards/search_results2.cfm?document_no=TIA-603-B>

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY

Mark Holman wrote:
> 
> Say Eric;
> 
> In regards to Telecommunications Industry Association do they have a web
> site ?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> MH
> - Original Message -
> From: "Eric Lemmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:14 PM
> Subject: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times - General
> Information
> 
> > Several recent postings have mentioned that the speed of response to a
> > carrier with a CTCSS ("PL") tone is faster with higher tones.  It
> > happens that there is an international standard, TIA-603-B-2002, which
> > describes this and many other facets of commercial radio systems.  The
> > Telecommunications Industry Association standard is entitled, "Land
> > Mobile FM or PM Communications Equipment, Measurement and Performance
> > Standards."  The great majority of reputable radio manufacturers certify
> > that their products meet this standard.
> >
> > Paragraph 3.4.2.2 states that "The maximum attack time for CTCSS
> > modulation shall be 250 ms except for frequencies below 100 Hz.  Below
> > 100 Hz, the time shall be computed by the following formula:"  The
> > formula is 25,000 divided by the CTCSS frequency in Hz; the answer is in
> > milliseconds (ms).  Given a low-end CTCSS tone of 67.0 Hz, a radio must
> > respond within 373 ms.  That's a long time!  However, as several posters
> > have noted, careful filtering of low-frequency noise and/or elimination
> > of DC offsets can significantly reduce the response time.
> >
> > The same standard also specifies that CDCSS ("DPL") codes must be
> > decoded within 350 ms.  System operators who are considering using
> > digital codes should be aware of this longer decode time.
> >
> > 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>




 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times - General Information

[Mark Holman]

Say Eric;

In regards to Telecommunications Industry Association do they have a web
site ?

Thanks

MH
- Original Message - 
From: "Eric Lemmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:14 PM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times - General
Information


> Several recent postings have mentioned that the speed of response to a
> carrier with a CTCSS ("PL") tone is faster with higher tones.  It
> happens that there is an international standard, TIA-603-B-2002, which
> describes this and many other facets of commercial radio systems.  The
> Telecommunications Industry Association standard is entitled, "Land
> Mobile FM or PM Communications Equipment, Measurement and Performance
> Standards."  The great majority of reputable radio manufacturers certify
> that their products meet this standard.
>
> Paragraph 3.4.2.2 states that "The maximum attack time for CTCSS
> modulation shall be 250 ms except for frequencies below 100 Hz.  Below
> 100 Hz, the time shall be computed by the following formula:"  The
> formula is 25,000 divided by the CTCSS frequency in Hz; the answer is in
> milliseconds (ms).  Given a low-end CTCSS tone of 67.0 Hz, a radio must
> respond within 373 ms.  That's a long time!  However, as several posters
> have noted, careful filtering of low-frequency noise and/or elimination
> of DC offsets can significantly reduce the response time.
>
> The same standard also specifies that CDCSS ("DPL") codes must be
> decoded within 350 ms.  System operators who are considering using
> digital codes should be aware of this longer decode time.
>
> 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times - General Information

[kd6hcn]

Frederick, I think this is what you were asking for
the rear connector pin-out for the tkr820. Right?

Regards, Barry

KENWOOD TKR CSI
PRODUCT
PIN (ACCESSORY CONN.)
(1) HOOK (HK) -GND (3)
(3) DIRECT MOD. INPUT (DI) SUB-TONE
(7)
(4) DISCRIMINATOR OUTPUT (DE) -RX RADIO
(6)
(5) MODULATION INPUT (LI) -TX RADIO
(4)
(7) SWITCHED B+ (13.6V @ 1A) --+12 VDC (2)
(8) PTT INPUT (PT) PTT (5)
(11) GROUND (GN) ---GND (3)
(13) COR OUTPUT (CO) ---COS (8)
(5 VDC, WHEN RX, O VDC)

Last updated 11/5/96 


"Frederick E. Fitte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Can anyone point me to where I can find application
> notes on interfacing an
> external
> repeater controller to a Kenwood TKR820 Table-Top
> repeater.I did look on
> some of the more popular mfg. web sites but did not
> findwhat I was looking
> for.  I have a UHF that I would like use with a link
> radio. Thanks.
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>  
> 
> 




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Re: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times - General Information

[russ]

If you buy the service man. for it you will be able to walk your self right
through a controler install. From the looks of it there are a pile of
Kenwood dealers on the list who could sell it to you.
Good luck!
Russ, W3CH

- Original Message - 
From: "Frederick E. Fitte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times - General
Information


> Can anyone point me to where I can find application notes on interfacing
an
> external
> repeater controller to a Kenwood TKR820 Table-Top repeater.I did look on
> some of the more popular mfg. web sites but did not findwhat I was looking
> for.  I have a UHF that I would like use with a link radio. Thanks.
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times - General Information

[Mike WA6ILQ]

At 03:16 AM 9/10/04, you wrote:

>Can anyone point me to where I can find application notes on interfacing an
>external
>repeater controller to a Kenwood TKR820 Table-Top repeater.I did look on
>some of the more popular mfg. web sites but did not findwhat I was looking
>for.  I have a UHF that I would like use with a link radio. Thanks.
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Everything that I have found elsewhere is pointed to by links on the 
Kenwood page
at www.repeater-builder.com

Mike WA6ILQ





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times - General Information

[Frederick E. Fitte]

Can anyone point me to where I can find application notes on interfacing an
external
repeater controller to a Kenwood TKR820 Table-Top repeater.I did look on
some of the more popular mfg. web sites but did not findwhat I was looking
for.  I have a UHF that I would like use with a link radio. Thanks.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]






 
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[Repeater-Builder] CTCSS Decoder Response Times - General Information

[Eric Lemmon]

Several recent postings have mentioned that the speed of response to a
carrier with a CTCSS ("PL") tone is faster with higher tones.  It
happens that there is an international standard, TIA-603-B-2002, which
describes this and many other facets of commercial radio systems.  The
Telecommunications Industry Association standard is entitled, "Land
Mobile FM or PM Communications Equipment, Measurement and Performance
Standards."  The great majority of reputable radio manufacturers certify
that their products meet this standard.

Paragraph 3.4.2.2 states that "The maximum attack time for CTCSS
modulation shall be 250 ms except for frequencies below 100 Hz.  Below
100 Hz, the time shall be computed by the following formula:"  The
formula is 25,000 divided by the CTCSS frequency in Hz; the answer is in
milliseconds (ms).  Given a low-end CTCSS tone of 67.0 Hz, a radio must
respond within 373 ms.  That's a long time!  However, as several posters
have noted, careful filtering of low-frequency noise and/or elimination
of DC offsets can significantly reduce the response time.

The same standard also specifies that CDCSS ("DPL") codes must be
decoded within 350 ms.  System operators who are considering using
digital codes should be aware of this longer decode time.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY




 
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