RE: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Mathew Quaife]

H, let me go back and double check that, might could be a problem there,
as one said, what about the cable before the duplexer's.  All I know is most
of this started after the power supply took a dump, might be it killed
something, or my astron 70 amp is not up to par.  Will retake the
measurements and give them again.

Mathew


-Original Message-
From: Wade Lake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 7:25 AM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why


Dave is absolutely correct.  The original post states 160 Watts in to the
duplexer and 130 Watts out.  That equates to less than a dB of loss through
the duplexer ( .9 db to be more accurate ).

Wade - KR7K

>
> Where did you acquire that from this thread?  My VSWR was after the
> duplexer?
>
> Mathew
>
>
>
> What kind of duplexer has less than a db of loss? (I want one).
>
>
>
>
>
> Dave Baughn
> Director of Engineering
> The University of Alabama
> Center for Public Television and Radio
> Box 870150
> Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487
> 205.348.8622 cell 205-310-8798
> NEW EMAIL [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/25/05 07:31PM >>>
>
> At 1/24/2005 07:30 PM, you wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Jan 24, 2005, at 18:28, w9mwq wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing better
> > > than it transmits.  Here's the setup, the the issue.  I have a
> > > Maggorie (no comments) HiPro transmiitter running 2 watts into a
> > > Vocom Amp running 160 Watts into the duplexer, 130 out to the
> > > antenna, fed with 7/8" hardline into a Diamond Dual Band Antenna at
> > > 92'.  VSWR is 1.1:1, with 130 watts forward and 1/10 watt reflected
> > > at an impedance of 52 ohms, (MJF 259).
> >
> >I would vote for a failure of the Diamond antenna. I would bet one or
> >more sets of the set screws holding the elements together have come
> >loose. When this happens, the antenna will still present a perfect 50
> >ohm load, but perform poorly.  Diamonds are okay antennas when they are
> >new, but they have to be taken down every year or two, disassembled,
> >cleaned and tightened up. Really only a decent antenna if you can get
> >to it conveniently for the annual repair.  You will never see this type
> >of failure with the wattmeter or impedance bridge.
>
> Since this is a 2 meter system, it would make some sense that a partial
> antenna failure would result in the TX being degraded more than the
> RX.  This is because of the relatively high noise floor on 2 meters.  Any
> loss in the antenna system will directly impact the TX signal of course,
> but the same loss will cause both received signal & noise to be reduced by
> the same amount.  If the repeater RX has a very low noise figure, it's
> likely that the first couple of dB of loss in the antenna system will
> nearly equally drop both signal & noise as seen by the RX, resulting in no
> perceived drop in RX performance.  However, any mechanical failure of the
> antenna would likely also cause a high VSWR and/or desense, neither of
> which are present here.
>
> Bob NO6B
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Wade Lake]

Dave is absolutely correct.  The original post states 160 Watts in to the
duplexer and 130 Watts out.  That equates to less than a dB of loss through
the duplexer ( .9 db to be more accurate ).

Wade - KR7K

>
> Where did you acquire that from this thread?  My VSWR was after the
> duplexer?
>
> Mathew
>
>
>
> What kind of duplexer has less than a db of loss? (I want one).
>
>
>
>
>
> Dave Baughn
> Director of Engineering
> The University of Alabama
> Center for Public Television and Radio
> Box 870150
> Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487
> 205.348.8622 cell 205-310-8798
> NEW EMAIL [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/25/05 07:31PM >>>
>
> At 1/24/2005 07:30 PM, you wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Jan 24, 2005, at 18:28, w9mwq wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing better
> > > than it transmits.  Here's the setup, the the issue.  I have a
> > > Maggorie (no comments) HiPro transmiitter running 2 watts into a
> > > Vocom Amp running 160 Watts into the duplexer, 130 out to the
> > > antenna, fed with 7/8" hardline into a Diamond Dual Band Antenna at
> > > 92'.  VSWR is 1.1:1, with 130 watts forward and 1/10 watt reflected
> > > at an impedance of 52 ohms, (MJF 259).
> >
> >I would vote for a failure of the Diamond antenna. I would bet one or
> >more sets of the set screws holding the elements together have come
> >loose. When this happens, the antenna will still present a perfect 50
> >ohm load, but perform poorly.  Diamonds are okay antennas when they are
> >new, but they have to be taken down every year or two, disassembled,
> >cleaned and tightened up. Really only a decent antenna if you can get
> >to it conveniently for the annual repair.  You will never see this type
> >of failure with the wattmeter or impedance bridge.
>
> Since this is a 2 meter system, it would make some sense that a partial
> antenna failure would result in the TX being degraded more than the
> RX.  This is because of the relatively high noise floor on 2 meters.  Any
> loss in the antenna system will directly impact the TX signal of course,
> but the same loss will cause both received signal & noise to be reduced by
> the same amount.  If the repeater RX has a very low noise figure, it's
> likely that the first couple of dB of loss in the antenna system will
> nearly equally drop both signal & noise as seen by the RX, resulting in no
> perceived drop in RX performance.  However, any mechanical failure of the
> antenna would likely also cause a high VSWR and/or desense, neither of
> which are present here.
>
> Bob NO6B
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Richard D. Reese]

I have two TX-RX in service on UHF and they are :

28-70-02 (450-470 MHz)
Type: 4 cavities 4" diameter
Freq. spacing  5 MHz
Insertion loss <0.6 dB
Max. continuous power  350 watts
Channel isolation  100+ dB

These spects have been verified on the bench as well.
73
Richard D. Reese
http://www.wa8dbw.ifip.com
- Original Message - 
From: "Dave Baughn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why


> 
> What kind of duplexer has less than a db of loss? (I want one).
> 
> Dave Baughn
> Director of Engineering
> The University of Alabama
> Center for Public Television and Radio
> Box 870150
> Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487
> 205.348.8622 cell 205-310-8798
> NEW EMAIL [EMAIL PROTECTED]





 
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RE: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Mathew Quaife]

Where did you acquire that from this thread?  My VSWR was after the
duplexer?

Mathew



What kind of duplexer has less than a db of loss? (I want one).





Dave Baughn
Director of Engineering
The University of Alabama
Center for Public Television and Radio
Box 870150
Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487
205.348.8622 cell 205-310-8798
NEW EMAIL [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/25/05 07:31PM >>>

At 1/24/2005 07:30 PM, you wrote:



>On Jan 24, 2005, at 18:28, w9mwq wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing better
> > than it transmits.  Here's the setup, the the issue.  I have a
> > Maggorie (no comments) HiPro transmiitter running 2 watts into a
> > Vocom Amp running 160 Watts into the duplexer, 130 out to the
> > antenna, fed with 7/8" hardline into a Diamond Dual Band Antenna at
> > 92'.  VSWR is 1.1:1, with 130 watts forward and 1/10 watt reflected
> > at an impedance of 52 ohms, (MJF 259).
>
>I would vote for a failure of the Diamond antenna. I would bet one or
>more sets of the set screws holding the elements together have come
>loose. When this happens, the antenna will still present a perfect 50
>ohm load, but perform poorly.  Diamonds are okay antennas when they are
>new, but they have to be taken down every year or two, disassembled,
>cleaned and tightened up. Really only a decent antenna if you can get
>to it conveniently for the annual repair.  You will never see this type
>of failure with the wattmeter or impedance bridge.

Since this is a 2 meter system, it would make some sense that a partial 
antenna failure would result in the TX being degraded more than the 
RX.  This is because of the relatively high noise floor on 2 meters.  Any 
loss in the antenna system will directly impact the TX signal of course, 
but the same loss will cause both received signal & noise to be reduced by 
the same amount.  If the repeater RX has a very low noise figure, it's 
likely that the first couple of dB of loss in the antenna system will 
nearly equally drop both signal & noise as seen by the RX, resulting in no 
perceived drop in RX performance.  However, any mechanical failure of the 
antenna would likely also cause a high VSWR and/or desense, neither of 
which are present here.

Bob NO6B






 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Dave Baughn]

What kind of duplexer has less than a db of loss? (I want one).

Dave Baughn
Director of Engineering
The University of Alabama
Center for Public Television and Radio
Box 870150
Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487
205.348.8622 cell 205-310-8798
NEW EMAIL [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/25/05 07:31PM >>>

At 1/24/2005 07:30 PM, you wrote:



>On Jan 24, 2005, at 18:28, w9mwq wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing better
> > than it transmits.  Here's the setup, the the issue.  I have a
> > Maggorie (no comments) HiPro transmiitter running 2 watts into a
> > Vocom Amp running 160 Watts into the duplexer, 130 out to the
> > antenna, fed with 7/8" hardline into a Diamond Dual Band Antenna at
> > 92'.  VSWR is 1.1:1, with 130 watts forward and 1/10 watt reflected
> > at an impedance of 52 ohms, (MJF 259).
>
>I would vote for a failure of the Diamond antenna. I would bet one or
>more sets of the set screws holding the elements together have come
>loose. When this happens, the antenna will still present a perfect 50
>ohm load, but perform poorly.  Diamonds are okay antennas when they are
>new, but they have to be taken down every year or two, disassembled,
>cleaned and tightened up. Really only a decent antenna if you can get
>to it conveniently for the annual repair.  You will never see this type
>of failure with the wattmeter or impedance bridge.

Since this is a 2 meter system, it would make some sense that a partial 
antenna failure would result in the TX being degraded more than the 
RX.  This is because of the relatively high noise floor on 2 meters.  Any 
loss in the antenna system will directly impact the TX signal of course, 
but the same loss will cause both received signal & noise to be reduced by 
the same amount.  If the repeater RX has a very low noise figure, it's 
likely that the first couple of dB of loss in the antenna system will 
nearly equally drop both signal & noise as seen by the RX, resulting in no 
perceived drop in RX performance.  However, any mechanical failure of the 
antenna would likely also cause a high VSWR and/or desense, neither of 
which are present here.

Bob NO6B






 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Chris Peterson]

Nobody is asking the obvious.  Where is the watt meter?  If the watt meter
is between the output of the duplexer and the antenna, sure it's going to
present a 50 ohm load and a low SWR, but it says nothing about the state of
the cable between the xmtr and the duplexer.  Of course, I wouldn't think it
would read 160 watts, but you would still want to check that cable to see if
it's okay.

73,
Chris, KG0BP



- Original Message -
From: "Dave Gingrich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why


>
>
>
> On Jan 24, 2005, at 18:28, w9mwq wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing better
> > than it transmits.  Here's the setup, the the issue.  I have a
> > Maggorie (no comments) HiPro transmiitter running 2 watts into a
> > Vocom Amp running 160 Watts into the duplexer, 130 out to the
> > antenna, fed with 7/8" hardline into a Diamond Dual Band Antenna at
> > 92'.  VSWR is 1.1:1, with 130 watts forward and 1/10 watt reflected
> > at an impedance of 52 ohms, (MJF 259).
>
> I would vote for a failure of the Diamond antenna. I would bet one or
> more sets of the set screws holding the elements together have come
> loose. When this happens, the antenna will still present a perfect 50
> ohm load, but perform poorly.  Diamonds are okay antennas when they are
> new, but they have to be taken down every year or two, disassembled,
> cleaned and tightened up. Really only a decent antenna if you can get
> to it conveniently for the annual repair.  You will never see this type
> of failure with the wattmeter or impedance bridge.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Bob Dengler]

At 1/24/2005 07:30 PM, you wrote:



>On Jan 24, 2005, at 18:28, w9mwq wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing better
> > than it transmits.  Here's the setup, the the issue.  I have a
> > Maggorie (no comments) HiPro transmiitter running 2 watts into a
> > Vocom Amp running 160 Watts into the duplexer, 130 out to the
> > antenna, fed with 7/8" hardline into a Diamond Dual Band Antenna at
> > 92'.  VSWR is 1.1:1, with 130 watts forward and 1/10 watt reflected
> > at an impedance of 52 ohms, (MJF 259).
>
>I would vote for a failure of the Diamond antenna. I would bet one or
>more sets of the set screws holding the elements together have come
>loose. When this happens, the antenna will still present a perfect 50
>ohm load, but perform poorly.  Diamonds are okay antennas when they are
>new, but they have to be taken down every year or two, disassembled,
>cleaned and tightened up. Really only a decent antenna if you can get
>to it conveniently for the annual repair.  You will never see this type
>of failure with the wattmeter or impedance bridge.

Since this is a 2 meter system, it would make some sense that a partial 
antenna failure would result in the TX being degraded more than the 
RX.  This is because of the relatively high noise floor on 2 meters.  Any 
loss in the antenna system will directly impact the TX signal of course, 
but the same loss will cause both received signal & noise to be reduced by 
the same amount.  If the repeater RX has a very low noise figure, it's 
likely that the first couple of dB of loss in the antenna system will 
nearly equally drop both signal & noise as seen by the RX, resulting in no 
perceived drop in RX performance.  However, any mechanical failure of the 
antenna would likely also cause a high VSWR and/or desense, neither of 
which are present here.

Bob NO6B






 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Chuck Kelsey]

First of all, there are other people on this list that are more qualified 
than I am regarding the use of a spectrum analyzer.

That said, you are looking to see only one large spike come up on your 
frequency when you turn the transmitter on. If you see a whole bunch of 
spikes (more than one, I suppose, could be several) come up at the same 
time, you've got a problem with either the exciter of the PA.

Chuck
WB2EDV



- Original Message - 
From: "Mathew Quaife" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 6:58 AM
Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why


>
> Ok, well if I set me service monitor up on the transmitter, put my
> selectivity to 20dBm, and the display to 10Db, what should I be looking 
> for
> on the spectrum analyzer.  I'm getting the manual out now to see if it 
> gives
> instructions on transmitter testing.
>
> Mathew
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Chuck Kelsey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 3:41 AM
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why
>
>
> You need to check the entire transmitter, not just the exciter.
>
> Chuck
> WB2EDV
>
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Mathew Quaife" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 2:17 AM
> Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why
>
>
>>
>> Well have to rule out the wattmeter, I have two of them, both gave the
>> same
>> results, one being bird wattmeter and the other being Yaesu YS-500.  The
>> antenna has only been in-service since September.  If it was the antenna,
>> would it not be noticed on the RX as well, which is not having any
>> problems
>> at all.  I will put the exciter back on the scope today and look at it,
>> but
>> last I looked it was fine.  Someone mentioned my past problem with
>> adjacent
>> channel noise, yes, there was a problem there, the deviation had jumped 
>> up
>> to over 6 Khz wide, brought it back down to 4.5 Khz via the controller 
>> and
>> that took care of that.  Will pump the signal into the service monitor 
>> and
>> see what that reads.  All I know it seems strange for it to receive twice
>> as
>> far as it does transmit.
>>
>> Mathew
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Mike Morris WA6ILQ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:41 PM
>> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why
>>
>>
>> Either your wattmeter is lying, or you have one of two
>> worse problems..
>>
>> 1)
>> Check your TX with a spectrum analyzer.  I'll bet that
>> your on-frequency power is down.
>> A wattmeter reads power on all frequencies - spurs or
>> on frequency.
>>
>> I was bit by that oversight years ago.
>>
>> A 6m 100w TX that used to be clean ended up as a comb
>> generator due to a leak in the roof creating corrosion in
>> the PA deck... The on-channel power was maybe 20w,
>> everything else was trash.
>>
>> It was a miracle that we caught it before someone else
>> figured out where the grunge was coming from.
>>
>> 2)
>> Your diamond antenna may be hosed and giving you a
>> low ERP.
>>
>> Mike WA6ILQ
>>
>> At 03:28 PM 1/24/05, you wrote:
>>
>>>Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing
>>>better than it transmits.  Here's the setup, the the issue.  I have
>>>a Maggorie (no comments) HiPro transmiitter running 2 watts into
>>>a Vocom Amp running 160 Watts into the duplexer, 130 out to the
>>>antenna, fed with 7/8" hardline into a Diamond Dual Band Antenna
>>>at 92'.  VSWR is 1.1:1, with 130 watts forward and 1/10 watt reflected
>>>at an impedance of 52 ohms, (MJF 259).
>>>
>>>The receiver is a GE Mastr Pro ER-41 series receiver, tied to an ARR
>>>preamp at 24 db going through a two of the DB 4001-1 for filtering
>>>and finally into a set of TX-RX Duplexers, 3 cans pers side.
>>>
>>>I used to be able to hear the repeater nearly full scale for about
>>>40 miles with no problem.  Recently at 20 miles away, it's barely at
>>>1/4 scale on my radio.  This has been noticable with several users
>>>on the system, and my mobile just got a new antenna, all set and
>>>tested fine there, and other repeaters there is no problem.  I can
>>>hear use

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Jim B.]

w9mwq wrote:

> 
> Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing better 
> than it transmits.  Here's the setup, the the issue.  I have a 
> Maggorie (no comments) HiPro transmiitter running 2 watts into a 
> Vocom Amp running 160 Watts into the duplexer, 130 out to the 
> antenna, fed with 7/8" hardline into a Diamond Dual Band Antenna at 
> 92'.  VSWR is 1.1:1, with 130 watts forward and 1/10 watt reflected 
> at an impedance of 52 ohms, (MJF 259).  
> 
> The receiver is a GE Mastr Pro ER-41 series receiver, tied to an ARR 
> preamp at 24 db going through a two of the DB 4001-1 for filtering 
> and finally into a set of TX-RX Duplexers, 3 cans pers side.
> 
> I used to be able to hear the repeater nearly full scale for about 
> 40 miles with no problem.  Recently at 20 miles away, it's barely at 
> 1/4 scale on my radio.  This has been noticable with several users 
> on the system, and my mobile just got a new antenna, all set and 
> tested fine there, and other repeaters there is no problem.  I can 
> hear users nearly 60 miles from the repeater, but they can't hear 
> the system.  
> 
> Is it possible something could be wrong on the duplexer end of it.  
> I get no decense on the system, and receive audio is ok quality at 
> 60 miles, just less than full quieting.
> 
> Any thoughts.  Mybe just propagation.
> 
> And the 160 watts from the Vocom amp was as low as I could go before 
> I began to cause havick, so it does not like lower power.
> 
> Mathew Thanks!

I more suspect either the Maggiore exciter or the Vocom amp are going 
somewhat spurious and not all of that power is on freq.

-- 
Jim Barbour
WD8CHL





 
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RE: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Mathew Quaife]

Ok, well if I set me service monitor up on the transmitter, put my
selectivity to 20dBm, and the display to 10Db, what should I be looking for
on the spectrum analyzer.  I'm getting the manual out now to see if it gives
instructions on transmitter testing.

Mathew


-Original Message-
From: Chuck Kelsey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 3:41 AM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why


You need to check the entire transmitter, not just the exciter.

Chuck
WB2EDV



- Original Message - 
From: "Mathew Quaife" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 2:17 AM
Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why


>
> Well have to rule out the wattmeter, I have two of them, both gave the 
> same
> results, one being bird wattmeter and the other being Yaesu YS-500.  The
> antenna has only been in-service since September.  If it was the antenna,
> would it not be noticed on the RX as well, which is not having any 
> problems
> at all.  I will put the exciter back on the scope today and look at it, 
> but
> last I looked it was fine.  Someone mentioned my past problem with 
> adjacent
> channel noise, yes, there was a problem there, the deviation had jumped up
> to over 6 Khz wide, brought it back down to 4.5 Khz via the controller and
> that took care of that.  Will pump the signal into the service monitor and
> see what that reads.  All I know it seems strange for it to receive twice 
> as
> far as it does transmit.
>
> Mathew
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Mike Morris WA6ILQ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:41 PM
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why
>
>
> Either your wattmeter is lying, or you have one of two
> worse problems..
>
> 1)
> Check your TX with a spectrum analyzer.  I'll bet that
> your on-frequency power is down.
> A wattmeter reads power on all frequencies - spurs or
> on frequency.
>
> I was bit by that oversight years ago.
>
> A 6m 100w TX that used to be clean ended up as a comb
> generator due to a leak in the roof creating corrosion in
> the PA deck... The on-channel power was maybe 20w,
> everything else was trash.
>
> It was a miracle that we caught it before someone else
> figured out where the grunge was coming from.
>
> 2)
> Your diamond antenna may be hosed and giving you a
> low ERP.
>
> Mike WA6ILQ
>
> At 03:28 PM 1/24/05, you wrote:
>
>>Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing
>>better than it transmits.  Here's the setup, the the issue.  I have
>>a Maggorie (no comments) HiPro transmiitter running 2 watts into
>>a Vocom Amp running 160 Watts into the duplexer, 130 out to the
>>antenna, fed with 7/8" hardline into a Diamond Dual Band Antenna
>>at 92'.  VSWR is 1.1:1, with 130 watts forward and 1/10 watt reflected
>>at an impedance of 52 ohms, (MJF 259).
>>
>>The receiver is a GE Mastr Pro ER-41 series receiver, tied to an ARR
>>preamp at 24 db going through a two of the DB 4001-1 for filtering
>>and finally into a set of TX-RX Duplexers, 3 cans pers side.
>>
>>I used to be able to hear the repeater nearly full scale for about
>>40 miles with no problem.  Recently at 20 miles away, it's barely at
>>1/4 scale on my radio.  This has been noticable with several users
>>on the system, and my mobile just got a new antenna, all set and
>>tested fine there, and other repeaters there is no problem.  I can
>>hear users nearly 60 miles from the repeater, but they can't hear
>>the system.
>>
>>Is it possible something could be wrong on the duplexer end of it.
>>I get no decense on the system, and receive audio is ok quality at
>>60 miles, just less than full quieting.
>>
>>Any thoughts.  Mybe just propagation.
>>
>>And the 160 watts from the Vocom amp was as low as I could go before
>>I began to cause havick, so it does not like lower power.
>>
>>Mathew Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 






 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Chuck Kelsey]

I would have said "bad antenna" as well except that it appears to be 
receiving quite nicely. However, that would be suspect #2 after a dirty 
transmitter is ruled out.

Chuck
WB2EDV



- Original Message - 
From: "Dave Gingrich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why


>
>
>
> On Jan 24, 2005, at 18:28, w9mwq wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing better
>> than it transmits.  Here's the setup, the the issue.  I have a
>> Maggorie (no comments) HiPro transmiitter running 2 watts into a
>> Vocom Amp running 160 Watts into the duplexer, 130 out to the
>> antenna, fed with 7/8" hardline into a Diamond Dual Band Antenna at
>> 92'.  VSWR is 1.1:1, with 130 watts forward and 1/10 watt reflected
>> at an impedance of 52 ohms, (MJF 259).
>
> I would vote for a failure of the Diamond antenna. I would bet one or
> more sets of the set screws holding the elements together have come
> loose. When this happens, the antenna will still present a perfect 50
> ohm load, but perform poorly.  Diamonds are okay antennas when they are
> new, but they have to be taken down every year or two, disassembled,
> cleaned and tightened up. Really only a decent antenna if you can get
> to it conveniently for the annual repair.  You will never see this type
> of failure with the wattmeter or impedance bridge.
>
> 






 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Chuck Kelsey]

You need to check the entire transmitter, not just the exciter.

Chuck
WB2EDV



- Original Message - 
From: "Mathew Quaife" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 2:17 AM
Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why


>
> Well have to rule out the wattmeter, I have two of them, both gave the 
> same
> results, one being bird wattmeter and the other being Yaesu YS-500.  The
> antenna has only been in-service since September.  If it was the antenna,
> would it not be noticed on the RX as well, which is not having any 
> problems
> at all.  I will put the exciter back on the scope today and look at it, 
> but
> last I looked it was fine.  Someone mentioned my past problem with 
> adjacent
> channel noise, yes, there was a problem there, the deviation had jumped up
> to over 6 Khz wide, brought it back down to 4.5 Khz via the controller and
> that took care of that.  Will pump the signal into the service monitor and
> see what that reads.  All I know it seems strange for it to receive twice 
> as
> far as it does transmit.
>
> Mathew
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Mike Morris WA6ILQ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:41 PM
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why
>
>
> Either your wattmeter is lying, or you have one of two
> worse problems..
>
> 1)
> Check your TX with a spectrum analyzer.  I'll bet that
> your on-frequency power is down.
> A wattmeter reads power on all frequencies - spurs or
> on frequency.
>
> I was bit by that oversight years ago.
>
> A 6m 100w TX that used to be clean ended up as a comb
> generator due to a leak in the roof creating corrosion in
> the PA deck... The on-channel power was maybe 20w,
> everything else was trash.
>
> It was a miracle that we caught it before someone else
> figured out where the grunge was coming from.
>
> 2)
> Your diamond antenna may be hosed and giving you a
> low ERP.
>
> Mike WA6ILQ
>
> At 03:28 PM 1/24/05, you wrote:
>
>>Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing
>>better than it transmits.  Here's the setup, the the issue.  I have
>>a Maggorie (no comments) HiPro transmiitter running 2 watts into
>>a Vocom Amp running 160 Watts into the duplexer, 130 out to the
>>antenna, fed with 7/8" hardline into a Diamond Dual Band Antenna
>>at 92'.  VSWR is 1.1:1, with 130 watts forward and 1/10 watt reflected
>>at an impedance of 52 ohms, (MJF 259).
>>
>>The receiver is a GE Mastr Pro ER-41 series receiver, tied to an ARR
>>preamp at 24 db going through a two of the DB 4001-1 for filtering
>>and finally into a set of TX-RX Duplexers, 3 cans pers side.
>>
>>I used to be able to hear the repeater nearly full scale for about
>>40 miles with no problem.  Recently at 20 miles away, it's barely at
>>1/4 scale on my radio.  This has been noticable with several users
>>on the system, and my mobile just got a new antenna, all set and
>>tested fine there, and other repeaters there is no problem.  I can
>>hear users nearly 60 miles from the repeater, but they can't hear
>>the system.
>>
>>Is it possible something could be wrong on the duplexer end of it.
>>I get no decense on the system, and receive audio is ok quality at
>>60 miles, just less than full quieting.
>>
>>Any thoughts.  Mybe just propagation.
>>
>>And the 160 watts from the Vocom amp was as low as I could go before
>>I began to cause havick, so it does not like lower power.
>>
>>Mathew Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 






 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Kevin Custer]

Dave Gingrich wrote:

  
Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing better
than it transmits.  

  
  
I would vote for a failure of the Diamond antenna. I would bet one or 
more sets of the set screws holding the elements together have come 
loose. When this happens, the antenna will still present a perfect 50 
ohm load, but perform poorly.


But,  he doesn't complain that he's having any trouble on his receive
side, so how can it be the antenna
If a 2 meter repeater antenna is broken, it'll affect both receive and
transmit, and likely have severe duplex noise which again he doesn't
complain about having that either.

Kevin Custer














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RE: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Mathew Quaife]

Well have to rule out the wattmeter, I have two of them, both gave the same
results, one being bird wattmeter and the other being Yaesu YS-500.  The
antenna has only been in-service since September.  If it was the antenna,
would it not be noticed on the RX as well, which is not having any problems
at all.  I will put the exciter back on the scope today and look at it, but
last I looked it was fine.  Someone mentioned my past problem with adjacent
channel noise, yes, there was a problem there, the deviation had jumped up
to over 6 Khz wide, brought it back down to 4.5 Khz via the controller and
that took care of that.  Will pump the signal into the service monitor and
see what that reads.  All I know it seems strange for it to receive twice as
far as it does transmit.

Mathew


-Original Message-
From: Mike Morris WA6ILQ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 3:41 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why


Either your wattmeter is lying, or you have one of two
worse problems..

1)
Check your TX with a spectrum analyzer.  I'll bet that
your on-frequency power is down.
A wattmeter reads power on all frequencies - spurs or
on frequency.

I was bit by that oversight years ago.

A 6m 100w TX that used to be clean ended up as a comb
generator due to a leak in the roof creating corrosion in
the PA deck... The on-channel power was maybe 20w,
everything else was trash.

It was a miracle that we caught it before someone else
figured out where the grunge was coming from.

2)
Your diamond antenna may be hosed and giving you a
low ERP.

Mike WA6ILQ

At 03:28 PM 1/24/05, you wrote:

>Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing
>better than it transmits.  Here's the setup, the the issue.  I have
>a Maggorie (no comments) HiPro transmiitter running 2 watts into
>a Vocom Amp running 160 Watts into the duplexer, 130 out to the
>antenna, fed with 7/8" hardline into a Diamond Dual Band Antenna
>at 92'.  VSWR is 1.1:1, with 130 watts forward and 1/10 watt reflected
>at an impedance of 52 ohms, (MJF 259).
>
>The receiver is a GE Mastr Pro ER-41 series receiver, tied to an ARR
>preamp at 24 db going through a two of the DB 4001-1 for filtering
>and finally into a set of TX-RX Duplexers, 3 cans pers side.
>
>I used to be able to hear the repeater nearly full scale for about
>40 miles with no problem.  Recently at 20 miles away, it's barely at
>1/4 scale on my radio.  This has been noticable with several users
>on the system, and my mobile just got a new antenna, all set and
>tested fine there, and other repeaters there is no problem.  I can
>hear users nearly 60 miles from the repeater, but they can't hear
>the system.
>
>Is it possible something could be wrong on the duplexer end of it.
>I get no decense on the system, and receive audio is ok quality at
>60 miles, just less than full quieting.
>
>Any thoughts.  Mybe just propagation.
>
>And the 160 watts from the Vocom amp was as low as I could go before
>I began to cause havick, so it does not like lower power.
>
>Mathew Thanks!





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Mike Morris WA6ILQ]

At 07:30 PM 1/24/05, Dave Gingrich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>On Jan 24, 2005, at 18:28, w9mwq wrote:
>
> > Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing better
> > than it transmits.  Here's the setup, the the issue.  I have a
> > Maggorie (no comments) HiPro transmiitter running 2 watts into a
> > Vocom Amp running 160 Watts into the duplexer, 130 out to the
> > antenna, fed with 7/8" hardline into a Diamond Dual Band Antenna at
> > 92'.  VSWR is 1.1:1, with 130 watts forward and 1/10 watt reflected
> > at an impedance of 52 ohms, (MJF 259).
>
>I would vote for a failure of the Diamond antenna. I would bet one or
>more sets of the set screws holding the elements together have come
>loose. When this happens, the antenna will still present a perfect 50
>ohm load, but perform poorly.  Diamonds are okay antennas when they are
>new, but they have to be taken down every year or two, disassembled,
>cleaned and tightened up. Really only a decent antenna if you can get
>to it conveniently for the annual repair.  You will never see this type
>of failure with the wattmeter or impedance bridge.

The article at 
may be of interest.

While it is not exactly relevant to w9mwq's situation (i.e. it
describes duplex noise that shows up as crackling), it does
describe a broken fiberglass colinear antenna having elements
disconnect and connect thereby changing gain levels.

Mike WA6ILQ





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Mike Morris WA6ILQ]

Either your wattmeter is lying, or you have one of two
worse problems..

1)
Check your TX with a spectrum analyzer.  I'll bet that
your on-frequency power is down.
A wattmeter reads power on all frequencies - spurs or
on frequency.

I was bit by that oversight years ago.

A 6m 100w TX that used to be clean ended up as a comb
generator due to a leak in the roof creating corrosion in
the PA deck... The on-channel power was maybe 20w,
everything else was trash.

It was a miracle that we caught it before someone else
figured out where the grunge was coming from.

2)
Your diamond antenna may be hosed and giving you a
low ERP.

Mike WA6ILQ

At 03:28 PM 1/24/05, you wrote:

>Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing
>better than it transmits.  Here's the setup, the the issue.  I have
>a Maggorie (no comments) HiPro transmiitter running 2 watts into
>a Vocom Amp running 160 Watts into the duplexer, 130 out to the
>antenna, fed with 7/8" hardline into a Diamond Dual Band Antenna
>at 92'.  VSWR is 1.1:1, with 130 watts forward and 1/10 watt reflected
>at an impedance of 52 ohms, (MJF 259).
>
>The receiver is a GE Mastr Pro ER-41 series receiver, tied to an ARR
>preamp at 24 db going through a two of the DB 4001-1 for filtering
>and finally into a set of TX-RX Duplexers, 3 cans pers side.
>
>I used to be able to hear the repeater nearly full scale for about
>40 miles with no problem.  Recently at 20 miles away, it's barely at
>1/4 scale on my radio.  This has been noticable with several users
>on the system, and my mobile just got a new antenna, all set and
>tested fine there, and other repeaters there is no problem.  I can
>hear users nearly 60 miles from the repeater, but they can't hear
>the system.
>
>Is it possible something could be wrong on the duplexer end of it.
>I get no decense on the system, and receive audio is ok quality at
>60 miles, just less than full quieting.
>
>Any thoughts.  Mybe just propagation.
>
>And the 160 watts from the Vocom amp was as low as I could go before
>I began to cause havick, so it does not like lower power.
>
>Mathew Thanks!





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Dave Gingrich]

On Jan 24, 2005, at 18:28, w9mwq wrote:

>
>
> Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing better
> than it transmits.  Here's the setup, the the issue.  I have a
> Maggorie (no comments) HiPro transmiitter running 2 watts into a
> Vocom Amp running 160 Watts into the duplexer, 130 out to the
> antenna, fed with 7/8" hardline into a Diamond Dual Band Antenna at
> 92'.  VSWR is 1.1:1, with 130 watts forward and 1/10 watt reflected
> at an impedance of 52 ohms, (MJF 259).

I would vote for a failure of the Diamond antenna. I would bet one or 
more sets of the set screws holding the elements together have come 
loose. When this happens, the antenna will still present a perfect 50 
ohm load, but perform poorly.  Diamonds are okay antennas when they are 
new, but they have to be taken down every year or two, disassembled, 
cleaned and tightened up. Really only a decent antenna if you can get 
to it conveniently for the annual repair.  You will never see this type 
of failure with the wattmeter or impedance bridge.








 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Chuck Kelsey]

I'm wondering the same thing. A spectrum analyzer would tell you more 
information. You may be putting out that much power, but on several 
frequencies. You already stated that the PA can get flakey. I'd look there 
first.

Chuck
WB2EDV


- Original Message - 
From: "Kevin Custer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 7:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why


>
> Your watt meter is lying to you.  Your transmitter power is down for
> some reason
>
> Kevin Custer
>
> w9mwq wrote:
>
>>Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing better
>>than it transmits.  Here's the setup, the the issue.  I have a
>>Maggorie (no comments) HiPro transmiitter running 2 watts into a
>>Vocom Amp running 160 Watts into the duplexer, 130 out to the
>>antenna, fed with 7/8" hardline into a Diamond Dual Band Antenna at
>>92'.  VSWR is 1.1:1, with 130 watts forward and 1/10 watt reflected
>>at an impedance of 52 ohms, (MJF 259).
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 






 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[Kevin Custer]

Your watt meter is lying to you.  Your transmitter power is down for 
some reason

Kevin Custer

w9mwq wrote:

>Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing better 
>than it transmits.  Here's the setup, the the issue.  I have a 
>Maggorie (no comments) HiPro transmiitter running 2 watts into a 
>Vocom Amp running 160 Watts into the duplexer, 130 out to the 
>antenna, fed with 7/8" hardline into a Diamond Dual Band Antenna at 
>92'.  VSWR is 1.1:1, with 130 watts forward and 1/10 watt reflected 
>at an impedance of 52 ohms, (MJF 259).
>





 
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[Repeater-Builder] Repeater Rx is Better than TX, Why

[w9mwq]

Ok, I know this sounds silly, but my repeater is now hearing better 
than it transmits.  Here's the setup, the the issue.  I have a 
Maggorie (no comments) HiPro transmiitter running 2 watts into a 
Vocom Amp running 160 Watts into the duplexer, 130 out to the 
antenna, fed with 7/8" hardline into a Diamond Dual Band Antenna at 
92'.  VSWR is 1.1:1, with 130 watts forward and 1/10 watt reflected 
at an impedance of 52 ohms, (MJF 259).  

The receiver is a GE Mastr Pro ER-41 series receiver, tied to an ARR 
preamp at 24 db going through a two of the DB 4001-1 for filtering 
and finally into a set of TX-RX Duplexers, 3 cans pers side.

I used to be able to hear the repeater nearly full scale for about 
40 miles with no problem.  Recently at 20 miles away, it's barely at 
1/4 scale on my radio.  This has been noticable with several users 
on the system, and my mobile just got a new antenna, all set and 
tested fine there, and other repeaters there is no problem.  I can 
hear users nearly 60 miles from the repeater, but they can't hear 
the system.  

Is it possible something could be wrong on the duplexer end of it.  
I get no decense on the system, and receive audio is ok quality at 
60 miles, just less than full quieting.

Any thoughts.  Mybe just propagation.

And the 160 watts from the Vocom amp was as low as I could go before 
I began to cause havick, so it does not like lower power.

Mathew Thanks!








 
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