Re: [ripe-list] Russia

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message ,
petra.zeid...@dlr.de wrote:

>Just for curiosities sake, are you this Ronald Guilmette?
>https://krebsonsecurity.com/tag/ron-guilmette/

I am.

>Otherwise: yes, there is no pan-European Operators Group. As far as I'm
>informed, despite its name, NANOG does not cover Mexico, so the idea of a
>NOG covering mostly the language area it's in is not that absurdly novel.

The NANOG list covers the geography of Quebec and many Caribbean nations
as well.

Note that all of the WHOIS records as well as 4 out of the 5 web sites of
the 5 regional Internet registries (including www.ripe.net) are all written
in English.  I wonder if that indicates anything.

>So reaching all European NOGs would be work, but it wouldn't be very useful
>work, since the people populating either RIPE lists or the NOG lists are
>usually not the ones that could decide to break contracts, unless the entity
>is not a very large one.

I think you are wrong about that.  But it doesn't really matter.  Occasionally,
the opinions of the lower echelons of worker bees in any organization are in
fact listened to.

 "It's everyone's duty to start the avalanche."
  -- Barley Blair (Sean Connery)
  -- The Russia House (1990)


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [ripe-list] Russia

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message <171d5ee3-7acf-f516-05df-dd3547e8b...@karrenberg.net>, 
Daniel Karrenberg  wrote:

>The archives have sufficient examples of the waste of bandwidth by this 
>person. Let's save everyone's time and continue to ignore his provocations.

By all means, please continue as Europeans to just ignore both me and
also the war raging on your very doorstep.  Ignoring reality would seem
to be one of the things you folks excel at, which goes a long way towards
explaining why you're all having such trouble getting natural gas right
about now, even though Ronald Reagan warned you all to avoid becoming
too dependent on Russian energy, way back in the 1980s.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/30/business/europe-natural-gas.html


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [ripe-list] Russia

[Petra.Zeidler]

Good localtime(),

Just for curiosities sake, are you this Ronald Guilmette?
https://krebsonsecurity.com/tag/ron-guilmette/

Otherwise: yes, there is no pan-European Operators Group. As far as I'm
informed, despite its name, NANOG does not cover Mexico, so the idea of a
NOG covering mostly the language area it's in is not that absurdly novel.

So reaching all European NOGs would be work, but it wouldn't be very useful
work, since the people populating either RIPE lists or the NOG lists are
usually not the ones that could decide to break contracts, unless the entity
is not a very large one.

best regards,

Petra Zeidler


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Re: [ripe-list] Russia

[Jan Zorz - Go6]

On 14/08/2022 13:47, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:
> Show me all of the discussions that have taken place here on this list, since
> the outbreak of the war, about Russia and its actions, and about what the
> proper response to those actions should be among those who value life above
> money.

Dear Ronald,

My suspicion is that RIPE community is more "doers" oriented and not so
much "talkers". We can have all the discussion in the world about how
bad the aggression is - but that doesn't help much Ukraine operators to
keep people connected at their homes or in the shelters while bombs are
falling down.

At this point I would like to thank the RIPE community for such a great
response to help Ukraine people with participating in GNA "Keep Ukraine
Connected" initiative. Some of you joined the initiative, some of you
donated network equipment, some of you sent us money for fiber splicers
and many of you are still trying to figure out how to participate in a
meaningful way.

Thanks to all of you in the name of the whole KUC team.

Cheers, Jan Žorž
member of GNA/KUC team


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Re: [ripe-list] Russia

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message <0179b1838aa0431d812be7a7b40cf...@yellowfox.net>, 
Peter Stimpel  wrote:

>Wow, How I missed this "if you are not with us, you are against us" calls.

I gather that it is altogether easy to be both cavalier towards and
dismissive of any attempts to seriously discuss the topic of personal
ethical responsibilities in response to these world-changing events in
Eastern Europe, at least while the view is from your comfortable and no
doubt air-conditioned office in Kesselsdorf, far far from the actual
carnage.

>Seriously: you made your point, could you leave it at that, please. RIPE is
>the wrong playground for this in my opinion.

I say yet again, show me the European equivalent to the NANOG mailing lists
that we here in North America have and i will be only too happy to go there
and raise these issues.  I've checked here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_network_operators%27_group

and although there seems to be no shortage European country-specific network
operator groups (and associated mailing lists) I'm not seeing any pan-European
place where I could make my case to network operators throughout Europe.
(This, to me, is rather incomprehensible, especially given the number of
European networking companies that have connections in more than one European
country, but this is only one of the smaller points that mystify me about
the seemingly determined and deliberate dis-unity in Europe.)

>As far as I understand, RIPE
>should not use its resources to make political impact

And I have not suggested otherwise.  Just because I elected to raise the
issue of our _individual_ responses to the war in Ukraine here on ripe-list
doesn't not automatically imply that I either expect or even hope for any
formal response from RIPE itself.  I don't.  This just seems to be the one
and only mailing list in the entire universe where it might be possible
to communicate with a large number of individual European network operators.

>If your point was to reach out to people and make a statement pro Ukraine:
>got it, thanks for the reminder, end of communication.

My goal was to reach a maximal number of European network operators and to
put it to them all that they can and should join with the over 1,000 companies
on the following list and curtail their business relations with Russia:

https://som.yale.edu/story/2022/over-1000-companies-have-curtailed-operations-russia-some-remain

>There are plenty of
>communities and social networks, where private people can put effort into
>helping ukrainian people with the situation, or make (imo useless) "fckptn"
>statements. RIPE mailing list is no such place.

Thanks, but Facebook and Twitter are clearly not going to be effective venues
for reaching European network operators, specifically.  And if I have left
any doubt, let me be clear that this was and is my goal.  I'd like to ask
each and every one of you folks here who are decision makers and who run
European networks how well you can sleep, knowing that you continue to provide
connectivity to an aggressor nation, relentlessly bent on a 19th century style
war of territorial conquest in Eastern Europe, and whose government ruthlessly
annihilates any and all opposition, both within its own borders, and even, when
they need arises, on the streets of London.


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [ripe-list] Russia

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message <7a091dee-27a3-4992-a3bc-840e5724d...@rfc1035.com>, 
Jim Reid  wrote:

>> On 15 Aug 2022, at 09:03, Ronald F. Guilmette  wrote:
>> Yes, and as I think I've already made plain, I don't care about the official
>> response of RIPE.
>
>In that case, take your whines somewhere else. This list is for general
>discussion about RIPE matters.

Fine.  Show me the mailing list that I can use to reach a maximal number
of actual network operators within Europe.  Show me the European equavalent
and counterpart to NANOG.

I'll wait.

>But since you don't care about that, 
>you're clearly posting to the wrong place. And since you don't care 
>about RIPE (NCC)'s response, you've no reason to expect anyone here to 
>care about what you have to say.

You obviously care.

>> You really just aren't getting this are you?
>
>No, it's you who really isn't getting this. For starters, you don't seem 
>to understand the difference between RIPE and RIPE NCC. Or how to get 
>"policy" changed in these two fora. For RIPE, submit a policy proposal...

Has anything I've said indicate that I'm looking for a policy change from
RIPE?

I'm not.  That would be a fools quest.

>Third, you've given no indication why RIPE 
>(NCC)'s stance is unsatisfactory or what could be done to make it 
>better. For some definition of better.

I did not indicate that I felt it was.  You're projecting your own mental
framework onto what I actually have said.

What I actually did say is that the organs of internet governance are,
quite understandably, extremely limited in what they are able to do, even
in response to such unique a world-changing events as war.  And even the
EU is having a hard time finding a consensus response to the events in
Ukraine since late February.  But as I have also observed individual
companies can and have, on their own initiative, and without being forced
to do so by any authority, elected to curtail their business with Russia
since the beginning of the conflict.  If this fact is not apparent to
you, then please allow me to share with you some reference material:

https://som.yale.edu/story/2022/over-1000-companies-have-curtailed-operations-russia-some-remain

>If you have *constructive* proposals on what RIPE or the NCC could do in 
>addition to the current sanctions...

I do not.  I never said I did.  Like the EU, RIPE is limited to doing only
what can achieve unanimous or near unanimous consensus.  That's extremely
limiting.  But individual companies certainly have the freedom to go beyond
the bare minimum of what either RIPE or the EU would have them do.  (Over
a thousand companies that have done that are named at the URL given above.)
I have merely come here to suggest that more European companies act 
independently
and follow suit by going beyond what is mandated in the way of cutting ties to
Russia.

>IMO it's highly unlikely that a bunch of Internet geeks wagging their 
>finger at Mr. Putin and putting him on RIPE's naughty step will make any 
>difference to his ugly war in Ukraine. Let's face it, the international 
>sanctions that are hurting Russia and Putin's cronies haven't made a 
>difference.

Apparently, your news sources are different than mine.

>Rather {than} indulge in virtue-signalling...

Is that what the 1,000+ companies on the list above are doing?  Mere
virtue-signalling?

Since the start of the war, British Petroleum (BP) has elected to disconnect
itself entirely from the projects it was involved with in Russia.  Some
estimates put the cost to BP of this move at over $25 billion dollars.

That's a lot of virtue-signalling!

>I think all of us could do far more 
>good by helping refugees or contributing to relief efforts or putting 
>pressure on our politicians to put more pressure on the Kremlin to stop 
>the carnage. Or any combination of these three things.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, as I am to mine.


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [ripe-list] Russia

[Jim Reid]

> On 15 Aug 2022, at 09:03, Ronald F. Guilmette  wrote:
> 
> 
> Yes, and as I think I've already made plain, I don't care about the official
> response of RIPE.

In that case, take your whines somewhere else. This list is for general 
discussion about RIPE matters. But since you don't care about that, you're 
clearly posting to the wrong place. And since you don't care about RIPE (NCC)'s 
response, you've no reason to expect anyone here to care about what you have to 
say.

> You really just aren't getting this are you?

No, it's you who really isn't getting this. For starters, you don't seem to 
understand the difference between RIPE and RIPE NCC. Or how to get "policy" 
changed in these two fora. For RIPE, submit a policy proposal and put it 
through the PDP. For the NCC, members can ask for agenda time and/or propose a 
resolution at the AGM. Second, invoking Godwin's law or "won't anyone think of 
the children?" rhetoric is unhelpful. That usually means the proponent has lost 
the debate and can't make a reasoned case for their PoV. Third, you've given no 
indication why RIPE (NCC)'s stance is unsatisfactory or what could be done to 
make it better. For some definition of better.

If you have *constructive* proposals on what RIPE or the NCC could do in 
addition to the current sanctions, please make them. RIPE's PDP is open to 
everyone. The NCC's members are free to propose resolutions at the *GMs. Start 
with a clear problem statement and then show how your proposal(s) will fix it.

IMO it's highly unlikely that a bunch of Internet geeks wagging their finger at 
Mr. Putin and putting him on RIPE's naughty step will make any difference to 
his ugly war in Ukraine. Let's face it, the international sanctions that are 
hurting Russia and Putin's cronies haven't made a difference.

Rather indulge in virtue-signalling, I think all of us could do far more good 
by helping refugees or contributing to relief efforts or putting pressure on 
our politicians to put more pressure on the Kremlin to stop the carnage. Or any 
combination of these three things.

 


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Re: [ripe-list] Russia

[Іван Пєтухов]

Greetings!

We are preparing for the Ukrainian part of IGF http://igf-ua.org/en/ 
this fall.
I think that the topics raised fit into our military history of 
Ukraine...
I take the courage to invite those who wish to attend the cybersecurity 
section, which I have been leading all these years, and I am ready to 
allocate time for discussion.


--
З повагою, Іван Пєтухов

15/08/2022 10:24, Patrik Fältström via ripe-list написав:

On 14 Aug 2022, at 13:47, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:


Disconnect Russia!

This isn't the job of RIPE, or ICANN, or anybody else. It is the moral 
duty of each of you reading these words, as individual ethical and 
moral beings.


The relationship between EU (and other States) and Russia, and because
of this between us individuals and Russia, is dealt with elsewhere
than at RIPE. It has been demonstrated for you how the issue have been
discussed and deal with in RIPE.

Regarding EU and disconnecting Russia, that has already been discussed
as part of the sanctions discussions, and this resulted in conclusion
related to the 6th sanction package that can be found here
:


Regulation (EU) No 269/2014 is amended as follows:

(1) the following article is inserted:

‘Article 6c

Article 2 shall not apply to funds or economic resources that are 
strictly necessary for the provision of electronic communication 
services by Union telecommunication operators, for the provision of 
associated facilities and services necessary for the operation, 
maintenance and security of such electronic communication services, in 
Russia, in Ukraine, in the Union, between Russia and the Union, and 
between Ukraine and the Union, and for data centre services in the 
Union.’


Patrik



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Re: [ripe-list] Russia

[Peter Stimpel]

Wow, How I missed this "if you are not with us, you are against us" calls.

Seriously: you made your point, could you leave it at that, please. RIPE is
the wrong playground for this in my opinion. As far as I understand, RIPE
should not use its resources to make political impact, at the end of the day
RIPE is a network service NGO. To interfere with communication abilities
should be triggered by governments, only. Could be wrong, but this my
opinion.

If your point was to reach out to people and make a statement pro Ukraine:
got it, thanks for the reminder, end of communication. There are plenty of
communities and social networks, where private people can put effort into
helping ukrainian people with the situation, or make (imo useless) "fckptn"
statements. RIPE mailing list is no such place. 

Cheers,
Peter

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: ripe-list  Im Auftrag von Ronald F.
Guilmette
Gesendet: Montag, 15. August 2022 09:19
An: ripe-list@ripe.net
Betreff: Re: [ripe-list] Russia

In message <72136d1a-6d94-11b2-571b-522a291e5...@schiefner.de>, 
Carsten Schiefner  wrote:

>And let me finish with a personal plea: could you please find yourself 
>other playgrounds where people might actually be more prone to accept 
>your insults...

Who have I insulted, other than the Russian government, all those who are,
by their actions, effectively proping it up, and those who value money
above the lives of innocents?  (I do not and shall not appologize if I
have insulted any of these).

I also won't apologize for raising anyone's blood pressure.  That is, I
think
a rather minimal price for you to pay, in relative terms, while innocent
children are being wantonly slaughtered.


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [ripe-list] Russia

[Daniel Karrenberg via ripe-list]

On 14-08-2022 00:01, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote ...

The archives have sufficient examples of the waste of bandwidth by this 
person. Let's save everyone's time and continue to ignore his provocations.


Daniel


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Re: [ripe-list] Russia

[Alex Semenyaka]

-- 
Alex Semenyaka


On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 9:41 AM  wrote:

> The problem in the sovereign nation of Ukraine which is created by the
> Russian leader (I refuse to believe that the majority of Russians stand
> behind this war) is basically the same as all the other BIG worldwide
> problems.
>

The problem is that the sovereign nation of Ukraine was never created by
"the Russian leader", so you are repeating a provocative false statement.
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