Re: [ripe-list] Re-opened Last Call for Draft Document: RIPE NCC Staff Participation in the RIPE Community

[Sylvain Baya]

Dear RIPE List-ers,
Hope this email finds you in good health!
Please see my comments below, inline...
Thanks.

Le mer. 2 août 2023 à 19:06, Andy Davidson  a écrit :

> Hi,
>
>
>
> Niall O’Reilly wrote:
>
> > /ripe-ncc-staff-participation-in-the-ripe-community-draft-v2
> 
>
> I like that there is a document draft and I like that it is short, thank
> you. :-)
>
>
>
> We need to make sure that it is not too short.
>
>
>
> The guiding principle that RIPE NCC team members are simultaneously valued
> community members is correct and has my full support.
>
>
>
> It is appropriate too that NCC team members disclose their position to the
> NCC when providing guidance in a RIPE community setting (p2).
>
>
>
> The document must emphasise the need for RIPE NCC staff to proactively
> manage their conflict of interest risks when engaging with the community.
> Particularly so in situations where a RIPE community working group, task
> force, or committee undertakes projects with activity plan, budgets, or
> headcount implications. It is evident that individuals involved in
> authoring such activity plans or holding positions within the NCC
> management cannot maintain the arm's length principle in various community
> activities. This directly contradicts the wording outlined in principle 1
> (participate on same terms).
>
>
>
> As a responsible community, it is incumbent upon us to safeguard NCC staff
> from potential conflicts of interest by defining clear protocols for how
> such situations are considered and managed when NCC staff participate in
> RIPE activities with activity plans, budgets, or hiring decisions.  Can
> this be captured in the lovely succinct way that you have approached the
> first two drafts?
>
>
>
Hi Andy,
Many thanks for stating it so softly, brother :-)

...i, too, would definitely like to see it captured.
It seems, to me, that it would appropriately address the
concerns, strongly, raised by Denis.

...*we* or ianal, though!
Maybe we need a lawyer to join the conversation?
...btw, someone who can think in support for the
community, as including the Staff, would be better :'-)
imho!

Shalom,
--sb.


> I recognise your effort in putting together this document, it is not a
> simple undertaking to author governance material.
>
>
>
> Andy Davidson
> --
>
> [...]
>


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Re: [ripe-list] Last Call for Draft Document: RIPE NCC Staff Participation in the RIPE Community

[Sylvain Baya]

Dear RIPE List-ers,
Hope this email finds you in good health!

Please see my comments below, inline...
Thanks.

Le vendredi 7 juillet 2023, denis walker  a écrit :

> Hi Mirjam
>
> Sorry for yet another long email, but this is an important issue.
>
>
Hi Denis,
Thanks for raising such interesting issues, brother.



> [...]
>
> The bottom line is that encouraging staff to speak openly and publicly
> with the community has both benefits and risks. [...]


>
...agreed!


> [...]

don't need to be involved. If a staff member is a WG chair can they
> operate completely independently from any collective company view,
> even if that means opposing a company view if that is in the best
> interests of the WG, without any penalty?
>
>
How to address this risk?


> Encouraging staff to be more involved in RIPE community activities is
> a sensitive issue for the staff. It needs more than a couple of
> paragraphs and some vague principles. This document looks to have been
> written from a community perspective, "welcomed by the RIPE
> community". Is it welcomed by the staff? Has anyone asked them? Works
> Council or Senior Management? Or has it just been assumed the staff
> welcome being in both camps?


>
A good opportunity to test the assumed *principle*.


> Do staff want to be able to put forward
> an idea, argue strongly in favour of it, implement it, then take the
> blame if it is not right? I've been there and done that and it's not a
> nice place to be.
>
>
...i'm not a RIPE NCC Staff! i'm curious to know
their answers; even an anonymised version would
suffice.


> Finally I would like to comment on the principles in this document. I
> have said many times...wording in RIPE documents is important. I am a
> native English speaker and an analyst with OCD, so I do see things in
> words more easily. But the NCC has a whole team of professional,
> English speaking, communications experts. Perhaps they are not used
> now to review these docs. Your principle No 2 "RIPE NCC staff
> expertise is valuable to and welcomed by the RIPE community." cannot
> be a recommended principle. It can be a supporting fact. But if you
> recommend, as a principle, that staff expertise is welcomed by the
> community, this becomes an instruction to the community that they must
> welcome this expertise. That is what these words actually say.
>
>
...i welcome it! but i expect a RIPE NCC Staff to be
both protected and prevented to put the RIR org in
 danger; while acting selfishnessly. Training and
capacity building would certainly be of great help
here, i agree.


>
> Lastly, your principle No 1 may have unexpected consequences. "RIPE
> NCC staff are part of the community and may participate in RIPE
> activities on the same terms as anyone else.". You make no exceptions
> here, "same terms as anyone else". So a RIPE NCC staff member can be
> part of a task force, be a WG chair, be the RIPE chair (if it is no
> longer a full time, paid position), be a member of the next NomCom,
> make policy proposals, argue for or against policy proposals. So
> consider this possible scenario. A staff member could make a policy
> proposal. Other staff members could argue strongly in support of this
> proposal. Consensus could be declared by a WG chair who is a staff
> member. Any appeal would end up with the RIPE chair who could also be
> a staff member. The policy will then be implemented and enforced by
> the RIPE NCC staff. All of these people could be influenced by RIPE
> NCC internal company policy and allowed time within working hours to
> do all this. They are all FTEs paid for by the RIPE NCC membership and
> expected to be following RIPE activities anyway, perhaps more closely
> than FTEs of member companies. This is a theoretical scenario.


>
Indeed, it's sadly an unexpected & undesirable side
 effect! at least for me :'-(

How to, safely, prevent it to happen?



> But it does raise the question of how independent and neutral will the RIPE
> NCC be seen as, if it's staff can be so involved in the bottom up
> policy process at every level, to the point of dominating and
> controlling, considering the often lack of other community member
> involvement.
>
>
...for me, quantity alone would not satisfactorily
address the issue. Where, quality & appropriate
*safeguards* would likely achieve the objective,
 imho!

But! which *safeguards*? that's a question i would
 like to get answers from others with more clue...
:-)



> I think some more thought is needed for this document.
>
>
...i actually agree too!
Thanks for your useful and detailed explanation
of the issues raised, dear Denis.

Shalom,
--sb.



> cheers
> denis
> co-chair DB-WG
> member of RIPE community
> former RIPE NCC staff member
> former chair RIPE NCC Works Council
> (for full disclosure)
>
>
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 at 12:00,  wrote:
> >
> > From: Mirjam Kuehne 
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > [1] RIPE NCC Staff Participation in the RIPE Community
> > https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-doc

[ripe-list] BoF on Tuesday Evening: The Impact of the Latest Developments in Artificial Intelligence on the RIPE Community

[Sylvain Baya]

Dear ripe-lister,
Hope this email finds you in good health!
Please see my comment below inline...
Thanks.

Le mercredi 17 mai 2023, Daniel Karrenberg via ripe-list 
a écrit :

> Dear colleagues,
>
>
Hi Daniel,
Thanks for organising this BoF, brother.


> There will be a BoF on Tuesday evening at  RIPE86.  I proposed it to the
> PC like this:
>
> [...]
>
> Also, if you have suggestions for reading material about the subject,
> please share them in this thread.
>
>

Please, do consider reading this [*] article too.
__
[*]: In AI, We Trust!?



Shalom,
--sb.



>
> I am very much looking forward to see you in the BoF.
>
> Daniel
>
> RIPE co-founder,
> first and current employee of the RIPE NCC,
> speaking only for himself.
>
> --
>
> [...]



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[ripe-list] [members-discuss] A frank discussion

[Sylvain Baya]

{Remove members-discuss}
Dear RIPE Community,
Hope this email finds you in good health!
Please see my comments below, inline...
Thanks.

Le mercredi 26 octobre 2022, NABEEL YASIN MOHAMMED AMIN <
nabeelya...@hotmail.com> a écrit :

> Dear All
>
> Is there any a proposal or any political influences that RIR should be
> controlled by the ITU qor any other intergovernmental agency , or
>
>
Hi Nabeel,
Thanks for your email, brother!
No public evidence available to support it right now
...imho :-/



> what exactly is being discussed over here ?!
>
>
...imho! simply a strategy to attempt to put the
entire Internet Numbers Registry System (INRS) [1]
 in a disadvantageous position by attacking on its
very core values/principles (bottom-up, openness,
 transparency, fairness)...via a strawman fallacy [2].
__
[1]: 
[2]: 


If i could add i would say this: what the Internet
Community should not miss is this ongoing
demonstration of a top->down Org [3][4] trying to slowly replace the NRO in
attacking its members
one by one; starting by the supposed weakest one:
 AfriNIC [5][6].
This [7] communiqué could be of worth interest to
read, if one want to know the story from the side of
 the victim... :'-(
__
[3]: Our Charter | NRS

[4] Terms & Conditions | NRS

[5]: FactSheets 
[6]: 
[7]: 

It's about an ongoing Internet Number Resources
 War...

Hope this adds a bit of fairness into this thread!

Shalom,
--sb.



> Thank you and best regards
>
> Nabeel Yasin
> WhatsApp/Tel : +967 777006885
> --
> *From:* ripe-list  on behalf of Lu Heng <
> h...@larus.net>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 26, 2022 12:11 PM
> *To:* Sander Steffann 
> *Cc:* Randy Bush ; ripe-list ;
> members-discuss 
> *Subject:* Re: [ripe-list] [members-discuss] A frank discussion
>
>
>
> [...]
>
>
>

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Best Regards !
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#‎LASAINTEBIBLE‬|#‎Romains15‬:33«Que LE ‪#‎DIEU‬ de ‪#‎Paix‬ soit avec vous
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[ripe-list] INRs War (was: Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs)

[Sylvain Baya]

{remove arin-discuss, as it has been closed}
{apologies for ×-posting}
Dear all,

Please see my comments below, inline...

Le vendredi 6 août 2021, Noah  a écrit :

> Shalom Sylvain,
>


Shalom Noah,
Thanks for your email, brother.


>
> On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 2:13 PM Sylvain Baya  wrote:
>
>> {apologies for crossposting}
>> Dear RIPE-Lister,
>>
>> Hope you are well.
>>
>> Please see my comments below, inline...
>>
>> Le mar. 3 août 2021 à 10:07 AM, Daniel Karrenberg  a
>> écrit :
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2 Aug 2021, at 20:45, Randy Bush wrote:
>>>
>>> > ignore the lies and escalation.  it is just designed to
>>> > create doubt and confusion.
>>>
>>
> Time and space has a way of revealing the truth.
>
>
>>>
>>> Could not agree more.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Daniel,
>> Thanks for your email, brother.
>>
>> ...this is an *INRs War*. it's no more only
>> about few/full lies.
>>
>> It seems as AfriNIC is just the first step...
>>
>
> No kidding, inlight of the so-called Number Resources Alliance which I
> 100% is backed by IPv$ brokers for Larus at the front line.
>
>

Of course!
...i may be naive! but what i read seems to be
clear for me. Hope to have more reaction from
the entire Internet Numbers Registry Community.

This [1]article seems to share evidence that AfriNIC
 is not the first target, by that kind of behaviours.
__
[1]: Concerns Grow As AFRINIC’s Funds Are Frozen Over IPv4 Dispute, by Doug
Madory, Director of Internet Analysis, AUGUST 06, 2021
<https://www.kentik.com/blog/concerns-grow-as-afrinics-funds
-are-frozen-over-ipv4-dispute/>

~°~
[...]

In 2019, the Department of Justice indicted
<https://www.justice.gov/usao-sc/pr/charleston-man-and-business-indicted-federal-court-over-9m-fraud>
a
man in South Carolina for fraudulently obtaining over 700,000 IPv4
addresses from North American registry ARIN estimated to be worth between
“$9,850,880 and $14,397,440.”

In a Lightning Talk <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYLEWCCjpao&t=235s> at
LACNIC in 2018, Etienne Sharp <https://twitter.com/etiennesharp> blamed
“ghost companies” for spiriting into Latin America, setting up virtual
offices to obtain precious IPv4 address space at little cost, and then
proceeding to use the address space outside the LACNIC region. Russian
security company DDoS-Guard (aka Dancom) was one of those ghost companies
<https://twitter.com/DougMadory/status/1351686933248933894> in Etienne’s
presentation, and earlier this year, LACNIC revoked its right
<https://krebsonsecurity.com/2021/01/ddos-guard-to-forfeit-internet-space-occupied-by-parler/>
to
use the address space it obtained from Belize.
[...]
~°~



>
>
>
>>
>>
>> This guy quotes his very own comment on Rob
>>> Blokzijl’s obituary and puts his own words in the mouth of Rob who
>>> cannot do anything about it anymore. He even puts this ‘quote’ in
>>> the charter of his new anti-RIR club. Distasteful. A disgrace.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ...from the home page of the NRA:
>>
>> ~°~
>> NUMBER
>> RESOURCES
>> SOCIETY
>>
>> "RIR is just a bookkeeper"
>>
>
> What they don't know is that an RIR like AFRINIC does more than just the
> registry services even though Lu Heng our of ignorance mistakenly thinks
> the RIR is a bookkeeper like  wannabe mini-RIR Larus.
>
>
...kind of! but a top-down one, calling to build an
anonymous community; which would let them
take all *good* decisions on their behalf.

Could they follow the global policies [2] :'-(
__
[2]: <https://nro.net/policy/global>



> 1. AFRINIC for instance is involved with a number of other activities
>
>-  Internet Number Resources Management
>-  Resource Certification Program (RPKI)
>
>
<https://rpki.afrinic.net/>
<https://validator.afrinic.net/>


>
>-  Internet Routing Registry (IRR)
>-  DNSSEC Program
>-  WHOIS Services
>
>
& good statistics: <https://stats.afrinic.net>

...such as:

<https://stats.afrinic.net/closures/>
<https://ftp.afrinic.net/pub/stats/afrinic/transfers/>
<https://stats.afrinic.net/dnssec/>
<https://stats.afrinic.net/irr/>
...


>
>-  Training Services in Collaboration with NOG's
>
>

• *HelpDesk* [3] to freely support Deployment Operationalization (DO)
within the AfriNIC service region.


>-  Online Services
>-  DNS Support Program
>-  Root Server Copy Programme
>-  Services like my.afrinic.net
>
> 2. AFRINIC carries out Research for the benefit of wide membership like:
>
>- Internet Tec

[ripe-list] INRs War (was: Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs)

[Sylvain Baya]

{apologies for crossposting}
Dear RIPE-Lister,

Hope you are well.

Please see my comments below, inline...

Le mar. 3 août 2021 à 10:07 AM, Daniel Karrenberg  a écrit :

>
>
> On 2 Aug 2021, at 20:45, Randy Bush wrote:
>
> > ignore the lies and escalation.  it is just designed to
> > create doubt and confusion.
>
>
> Could not agree more.



Hi Daniel,
Thanks for your email, brother.

...this is an *INRs War*. it's no more only
about few/full lies.

It seems as AfriNIC is just the first step...


This guy quotes his very own comment on Rob
> Blokzijl’s obituary and puts his own words in the mouth of Rob who
> cannot do anything about it anymore. He even puts this ‘quote’ in
> the charter of his new anti-RIR club. Distasteful. A disgrace.
>
>

...from the home page of the NRA:

~°~
NUMBER
RESOURCES
SOCIETY

"RIR is just a bookkeeper"

- Rob Blokzijl Obituary

IP addresses or number resources are crucial assets that allow every person
in the world to access the Internet. These precious assets are managed and
registered by Regional Internet Registries (RIRs). Unfortunately, these
organizations can only act as bookkeepers and distributors of IP space, not
regulators or owners. That said, it is important to raise awareness about
this fact, as Number Resource Members.
~°~

The charter against the Internet Number
 Registry System has been saved here :


Shalom,
--sb.


> Just ignore the lies!
>
> Daniel
>

[ripe-list] [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Sylvain Baya]

Dear AfriNIC's Community,

Le dim. 1 août 2021 à 10:58 AM, Paul Wollner 
a écrit :

>
> Hello community
>


Hi Paul,
Thanks for your email, brother.

...please, next time, replace community by its
plural...unless you test your *globalisation*?



> I think I  misused the word “take over” to spike some unfortunate
> sentiments.
>


...i see!
So, you acknowledge to be wrong in your
 haste?

...please, come down, brother!


> Let me try this again:
>
> In the interest of internet continuity, another RIR
>


...i would have expected that the ressource
member which caused this concern would
have been your first recommended choice :-/


should help AFRINIC (by staff or infrastructure), to perform it’s core
> registration service function for the time being,
>
>
>

NRA.help | Number Richers Alliance? :-/


>
> until all AFRINIC litigation has been sorted to avoid disruption to our
> African end users and businesses.
>
>
...which *African* end users? imho, your real
fear seem to be the lost of connectivity of the
90%, out-of-region, customer base of the LIR
which sued its parent-RIR and started an
*INRs War* against the RFC7020, against the
entire Internet Number Registry System, through
the NRA.help project.

Shalom,
--sb.



> Regards
> Paul
>
>
>
>  On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 23:38:32 +0200 *Paul Wollner
> >* wrote
> 
>
> Apologies for the duplicate post, but the initial posting was too large.
>
> The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and
> especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu,
> which is available at https://ibb.co/tmWCk0k, regarding the AFRINIC’s
> inability to keep providing its core registry functions due to its
> inability to meet its financial requirements.
>
> I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's
> hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core registry
> service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as
> well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC’s
> registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some
> time later. (https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-
> accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/)
>
> That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come
> out of litigation.
>
> Regards
> Paul Wollner
>
>

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