Re: [RDD] Building a music library.

[Rob Landry]

For WCVR in Randolph, Vermont, we ordered all our music from 
uncompressedmusic.com, then copied it all into a Rivendell dropbox. It 
cost about $2,000, but it gave us what we needed.



Rob

--
Я там, где ребята толковые,
Я там, где плакаты "Вперёд",
Где песни рабочие новые
Страна трудовая поёт.

On Thu, 27 Apr 2017, James Greenlee wrote:


What are some good methods/strategies for building a music library on 
Rivendell?  Starting from scratch...This looks pretty daunting.

Thanks,

James
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Re: [RDD] Building a music library

[Chuck]

Here is my contribution to the topic with a half-dozen years of
Rivendell now under my belt.

The Brett blog entry on scheduling has some useful tips:
https://thebrettblog.wordpress.com/2009/12/31/rivendell-how-to-schedule-music/

One of the suggestions I have found very valuable is to tag all music
with Brett's idea of whether it is LOSS or NOLOSS.  It is impossible
these days to avoid MP3's, as even many record company distribution
channels offer only MP3's.  Marking whether a track is lossy or not, has
really helped when we get access to a no-loss track that can replace a
lossy one.  Without having tagged those lossy tracks, we would not know
what the original was--or if it needed to be replaced or not.

I am the one maintaining the music part of the library and we currently
have over 40,000 tracks.  I started that task in 2011, and it is still
not done.  These days I only work an hour a day on it (if that), but for
40,000 tracks from scratch, it would be a fulltime job for several
people, and even then I cannot see it taking less than a year.  No
wonder the big chain operations have a drive at the home office for each
format, and just clone one for a format switch at an owned station.

We were lucky enough to be able to import about 75% of our library from
another operation's rips (we do own and possess all the tracks in
question on CD or vinyl, we just didn't rip all of them by ourselves),
and when you do that--if they are tagged correctly with metadata,--all
of that is imported, AND you can set start/end/segue markers with the
"rdimport" command from a terminal during import--or with "rdmarkerset"
after import.  My experience is that the 80/20 rule applies and about
80% of the tracks are perfect with the rdimport parameters; the other
20% need tweaked.

The current rotation is from about 2,000 of the 40,000 so the challenge
is doable as only a small number are dropped/added to the 2,000 at any
one time.  That 2,000 may seem like a lot, but in our format, it means
if we did not repeat until everything was played, we would start
repeating after only 7 days (we do repeat before 7 days, however).  If
you don't have many stopsets or they are short, it is easy to chew
through a good 300 to 350 3-to-4 minute tracks a day.

Our music library occupies by far the largest number of carts; second is
voice-tracks.  I put both of those groups starting well after anything
else that we use.  Music starts at 100,001 and goes to 499,999.
Voice-tracks start at 500,001 and go to 699,999.  We have 2 formats of
music, and one starts at 100,001.  I forced the other to start imports
at 200,001 by changing the Music group to start at 200,001 when
importing the second format's tracks--thus, it is easy to identify which
track goes with which format by the cart number.  Imports now are
minimal and easily managed from week-to-week--unless there is a future
decision to include yet another format.

I was a musician in an earlier life, so our segues are all placed to
fade/start at musical points, and not jammed together at random points
that so many stations today do with non-musicians in control of music
and production policy.  That takes a lot of work, but the 2,000 are done
and then some, while checking and marking the rest of the library is
what I now spend most of my time on.

Robert is so very correct that even big label releases often have audio
defects, and I listen to every new rip carefully.  Very short squeaks,
clicks, and pops can be edited out without detection if the 'zero
crossing point' feature of WAV editors is used and the material excised
is very short.  The WAV editor in Exact Audio Copy is hard to navigate,
but does not transcode audio and therefore is totally transparent (EAC
works with WINE on my system).  Editing in Audacity transcodes in and
out of the Audacity format and adds a noise threshold that is louder
than the -71db silence level that we hope to maintain.  A lot of songs
are chopped quickly and unnaturally at the end, and I use Audacity to
add natural sounding reverb ringout to those, in addition to boosting
long fadeouts so they can end more quickly without an annoyingly long
fadeout.  The disadvantage is that I have to manually set the start and
end markers to anything done in Audacity, because the start and end
silence will be louder than our -71 trim setting.

All music is imported to the Music group, but we created other groups
for the log generator to schedule from, and moving carts in and out of
those groups (with no forced number assignments) is how we establish and
change the rotation.

Hope all that is helpful, but I agree with everyone's stress on thinking
through the groups and number assignments before beginning, as it is not
easy to move carts around in Rivendell--as currently, it must be done by
manually copying and pasting each cut in each cart, one at a time.
Furthermore, with the cart number being the keystone of identification,
changing cart numbers can mean the wrong content 

Re: [RDD] Building a music library.

[Robert Jeffares]

It is important you have a high grade sound card on any machine you use 
for collecting music, be it from CD or dubbing from some earlier format.


Using any 'On Board Sound Card' is dangerous and you can actually hear 
the difference.


I have been building a library of music stored on Rivendell over the 
past 17 years, primarily sourced from CD, some recorded as wav from 78, 
45, and LP,  some from cassette, and a few mp3's when nothing else is 
available.


I set someone up with a Rivendell installation and he carted a few 
thousand tracks which I copied into my system.


I was loaned a large CD collection for a few weeks which I was able to 
load in, and then spent months curating.


I have been fortunate to have various people share their CD collection 
with me. Usually because they want to hear that genre of music played on 
the station.


But the bulk of the collection has been sourced by haunting the bargain 
bins of various retailers. Amazing what you can get for $1.99 !


I usually load 1 or 2 CD's each day which is a manageable number of 
tracks to assign to a GROUP and to give Scheduler Codes.


My library provides 3 formats, obviously with a lot of crossover, and 
contains a little over 40,000 cuts.


I am not sure how many CD's I have, but  a lot just didn't make it.

Before you start you need a plan, and here is mine.

I assigned cart numbers 10,000 - 99,999 to MUSIC and the same numbers to 
CD. I have a group FROMMP3 which takes numbers from 40,000-99,999 and a 
group IMPORT which takes numbers 80,000 - 99,999.


Inevitably I find I have 2 or 3 or more versions of a song and the 
source helps me cull.


BUT

I share a focus on the 'original' version of a song which may be hard to 
find because many compilation CD's have re recordings of the tune with 
as few as 1 of the original group members. American pressings were 
copied in other countries and re mastered. Releases in the UK and US may 
be from different takes, or sessions, and the Album track may differ 
from the Single. Some CD's have been remastered using compression which 
ruins the original. Occasionally someone goes back to the original multi 
track and tries to do a better job. Same song, different key. Same song 
different replay speed. Never be surprised. Out of phase stereo. Muddy 
Mono Mixes.


Radio Listeners tend to notice these discrepancies.

I check every track that goes in to the system. Even 'Big Name' CD's 
have flaws in them that show up when you are ripping them. The naming 
database(s) are unreliable. Trust nothing.


A lot of Compilations have 'enhanced' tracks that are just rubbish.

I set the replay level and the open and close cue points. You only have 
to do it once.


I have 4 main groups and some other groups like LIVE and ROCK and I 
daypart with scheduler codes. The music scheduler works as well as any 
of the big $'s ones if you plan, and you can always change things.


BACKUP

I back up /var/snd AND MySQL daily in 3 places, with another monthly 
archive making 4. I have used the backup once.


Creating a music library for a station(s) is a labour of love. You need 
to pay attention to the music, the mechanical quality, and the replay 
parameters.


It takes time, and there is no short way.

The job satisfaction: priceless!


regards


Robert Jeffares



On 28/04/17 11:51, James Greenlee wrote:

What are some good methods/strategies for building a music library on 
Rivendell?  Starting from scratch...This looks pretty daunting.

Thanks,

James
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Re: [RDD] Building a music library.

[Cowboy]

On Friday 28 April 2017 10:22:40 am Lorne Tyndale wrote:
> However it is worth considering that the best
> sounding stations out there are the ones where a producer in a
> production studio has gone through and listened to every track

 It's more than worth considering.
 If you care **at all** about your air product, it isn't even worth
 mentioning. It's mandatory. Period.

-- 
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http://cowboy.cwf1.com

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Re: [RDD] Building a music library.

[Cowboy]

On Friday 28 April 2017 12:15:25 pm Bill Putney wrote:
>  then using the extra 
> time to transcode 44.1 source material to 48 when you rip and using the 
> extra disk space seems a little silly. 

 The one time through, I understand,
 But, if you're the CPU, then the overhead of the 44.1 math is an
 unnecessary workload every time, instead of once.
 Do the transcode, once.

-- 
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http://cowboy.cwf1.com

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Re: [RDD] Building a music library.

[Alan Smith]

I stand corrected.  You sir, are indeed correct.

-Alan

On 4/28/2017 11:55 AM, Matthew Chambers wrote:
Don't you mean if modulation drops below 100%, I don't think i saw 
modulation outside a 100%-120% window in some markets


Matthew Chambers, CBT, NR0Q

On Apr 28, 2017 11:36 AM, "Alan Smith" > wrote:


Tongue-in-cheek:

If you want to be competitive, just do what all the PDs,
Producers, Production guys, and almost everyone Ive run across does:

Download the source in crappy mp3 format.
Bring it up in the digital editor and add compression until the
resulting waveform looks like a rectangle when fully zoomed out.
Run it through a few pre-processors after it leaves the automation
system, and make sure all the knobs are "turned to 11". See here
for a good explanation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xgx4k83zzc



Make sure when playing it through the console the VU meters are
always "in the red".
Ask the chief to adjust the final processing to again add even
more compression for that "brick wall of sound".

To verify you have done everything correctly:

If the modulation meter EVER drops below 98%, go back and add more
compression.

-Alan
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Re: [RDD] Building a music library.

[Alan Smith]

Tongue-in-cheek:

If you want to be competitive, just do what all the PDs, Producers, 
Production guys, and almost everyone Ive run across does:


Download the source in crappy mp3 format.
Bring it up in the digital editor and add compression until the 
resulting waveform looks like a rectangle when fully zoomed out.
Run it through a few pre-processors after it leaves the automation 
system, and make sure all the knobs are "turned to 11". See here for a 
good explanation:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xgx4k83zzc


Make sure when playing it through the console the VU meters are always 
"in the red".
Ask the chief to adjust the final processing to again add even more 
compression for that "brick wall of sound".


To verify you have done everything correctly:

If the modulation meter EVER drops below 98%, go back and add more 
compression.


-Alan
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Re: [RDD] Building a music library.

[Bill Putney]

but these are my few.

Andy




   On Fri, 28 Apr 2017 05:34:32 +0100 James Greenlee <ja...@madsonics.com> 
wrote 
  > Fair enoughBut if I were going to run a station unattended, there's nobody to 
load CD's into players to play cuts off of a disc.  Thus the "on Rivendell" part 
of the question.
  >
  > My assumption is that I would need to rip some CD's to files, import those 
files to carts, and make sure all the meta data is there.
  >
  > - Original Message -
  > From: "Cowboy" <c...@cwf1.com>
  > To: rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
  > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 9:37:08 PM
  > Subject: Re: [RDD] Building a music library.
  >
  > On Thursday 27 April 2017 07:51:23 pm James Greenlee wrote:
  > > What are some good methods/strategies for building a music library on 
Rivendell?
  >
  >  "on Rivendell" is irrelevant.
  >
  >  A music library is merely a collection of songs, cuts, and pieces.
  >  Mine are predominantly burned on CD.
  >
  > --
  > Cowboy
  >
  > http://cowboy.cwf1.com
  >
  > Carmel, New York, has an ordinance forbidding men to wear coats and
  > trousers that don't match.
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Re: [RDD] Building a music library.

[Lorne Tyndale]

Hi,

I do agree with what Andy's said.  To add a few thoughts:

1.  On the 44.1/48 question, the only time I'd use 44.1 in this day and
age is if 44.1 has already previously been set as a standard in a
facility or there is some other compelling reason to use 44.1 (for
example, some sound cards won't support 48, but in that case if you have
a sound card that won't do 48 my recommendation would be to find a
better sound card).  Otherwise use 48.  You can always convert down to
44.1 later if there is the need.

2.  While Rivendell does have the ability to store audio files in
compressed mp2 format, due to the fact that hard disk space is
relatively cheap these days, I'd stick with linear PCM.  No point
compressing those audio files.

3.  If you do - despite recommendations to avoid it - decide to use mp2,
then use the highest bitrate option

4.  It is certainly possible to do batch imports with Dropboxes and such
- where Rivendell will automagically import audio into its music library
/ database from either an audio file, ripping directly  from CD to the
library, etc.  You can do this and you'll end up with a functional music
library in Rivendell.  However it is worth considering that the best
sounding stations out there are the ones where a producer in a
production studio has gone through and listened to every track, set
things such as the segue and talk markers, custom-tweaked the audio so
it will sound best after it has gone through the audio chain being used
on air at the station, etc.  Of course this does take a skilled producer
- one who is intimately familiar with the sound of the station, what
effects the audio chain being used can have on the audio, and what
listens expect, etc.  It takes a lot of time and effort to go through
every track this way, while this used to be a standard practice in the
industry, these days many stations don't bother with the time and
effort.

Lorne Tyndale



> 
> Hi,
> 
> As you say, this is a major undertaking, so you need to get this right from 
> the beginning.  You don't want to be making any mistakes.  
> 
> My tips would have to be.
> 1) Make sure you start off at the right bit rate.  Do you use 44100 or 48000? 
>  Part of this will depend on how you are going to be using the audio.  Will 
> you be feeding other kit (mixers etc) in the digital domain?  IE is your 
> output SPDIF,  AES/EBU, Livewire etc?  If so, it will be worth you using 48k. 
>  Don't just think about what you use now.  2 years down the line you don't 
> want to be having to convert the library to a different bit rate.
> 
> 2) Check your audio sources.  TWIRT did a very good programme that covered 
> this issue.  They were saying that a song might have been released on a large 
> number of different CDs.  These include remastered versions of Albums, but 
> also on compilation CDs.  However, the quality of the master used may vary.  
> For instance, the quality of a track on a compilation album might be really 
> bad in comparison to getting that track from an original release of the bands 
> album.  Another issue that you have with CDs is that a lot of the so called 
> "Remastered" releases have been dynamically compressed as part of the 
> loudness wars, and will be totally rubbish compared to the original release.  
> That is not to say that all Remastered CDs are bad.  In fact some are 
> positively great.
> 
> 3) Do not use MP3s (or AAC etc).  These are lossy formats.  You WILL lose 
> some of original quality of the recording.  Also, if your output goes through 
> a codec before it hits the listener then you might get the issue with 
> multiple compression / decompression stages.  Where an MP3 sounds OK in the 
> studio, it might go through another couple of compression / decompression 
> stages before it hits the listener and by this time it sounds awful.
> 
> 4) Pace yourself.  Don't overdo it.  There is a limit to how much you can do 
> in one session before you start making silly mistakes with the markers (Start 
> / End / Talktime / Segue).
> 
> There are probably many more tips, but these are my few.
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   On Fri, 28 Apr 2017 05:34:32 +0100 James Greenlee <ja...@madsonics.com> 
> wrote  
>  > Fair enoughBut if I were going to run a station unattended, there's 
> nobody to load CD's into players to play cuts off of a disc.  Thus the "on 
> Rivendell" part of the question. 
>  >  
>  > My assumption is that I would need to rip some CD's to files, import those 
> files to carts, and make sure all the meta data is there. 
>  >  
>  > ----- Original Message - 
>  > From: "Cowboy" <c...@cwf1.com> 
>  > To: rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org 
>  > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 9:37:08 PM 
>  > Subject: R

Re: [RDD] Building a music library.

[Tom Van Gorkom]

And be sure to think through your groups before starting. Get that right
from the beginning with expansion room on the cart number ranges and it's
easier going forward. I encourage setting up schedule codes at the
beginning too so you can assign the codes to the carts as you go but these
can be modified easily after if you discover they aren't quite what you
need.

Tom Van Gorkom
Radio Esperanza Engineering, KRIO AM/FM, KOIR FM
Office: 956-380-8150
Cell: 865-803-7427

Rio Grande Bible Institute
4300 S US Hwy 281
Edinburg, TX 78539

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 5:55 AM, drew Roberts <zotz...@gmail.com> wrote:

> James,
>
> On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 12:34 AM, James Greenlee <ja...@madsonics.com>
> wrote:
>
> snip
>
>
>> My assumption is that I would need to rip some CD's to files, import
>> those files to carts, and make sure all the meta data is there.
>>
>
> Not quite. RDLibrary can rip from the CD right to the cut and fill out the
> metadata for the cart too if things are configured right and the CD is a
> "known" one. It can even do a whole CD at once and put each song into its
> own cart.
>
> all the best,
>
> drew
>
>
>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Cowboy" <c...@cwf1.com>
>> To: rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
>> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 9:37:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [RDD] Building a music library.
>>
>> On Thursday 27 April 2017 07:51:23 pm James Greenlee wrote:
>> > What are some good methods/strategies for building a music library on
>> Rivendell?
>>
>>  "on Rivendell" is irrelevant.
>>
>>  A music library is merely a collection of songs, cuts, and pieces.
>>  Mine are predominantly burned on CD.
>>
>> --
>> Cowboy
>>
>> http://cowboy.cwf1.com
>>
>> Carmel, New York, has an ordinance forbidding men to wear coats and
>> trousers that don't match.
>> ___
>> Rivendell-dev mailing list
>> Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
>> http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev
>> ___
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>> Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
>> http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Enjoy great *Bahamian Music* at:
> Bahamain Or Nuttin - http://www.bahamianornuttin.com
> <http://www.bahamianornuttin.com/>
>
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>
>
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Re: [RDD] Building a music library.

[drew Roberts]

James,

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 12:34 AM, James Greenlee <ja...@madsonics.com>
wrote:

snip


> My assumption is that I would need to rip some CD's to files, import those
> files to carts, and make sure all the meta data is there.
>

Not quite. RDLibrary can rip from the CD right to the cut and fill out the
metadata for the cart too if things are configured right and the CD is a
"known" one. It can even do a whole CD at once and put each song into its
own cart.

all the best,

drew



>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Cowboy" <c...@cwf1.com>
> To: rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 9:37:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [RDD] Building a music library.
>
> On Thursday 27 April 2017 07:51:23 pm James Greenlee wrote:
> > What are some good methods/strategies for building a music library on
> Rivendell?
>
>  "on Rivendell" is irrelevant.
>
>  A music library is merely a collection of songs, cuts, and pieces.
>  Mine are predominantly burned on CD.
>
> --
> Cowboy
>
> http://cowboy.cwf1.com
>
> Carmel, New York, has an ordinance forbidding men to wear coats and
> trousers that don't match.
> ___
> Rivendell-dev mailing list
> Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
> http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev
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>



-- 
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Bahamain Or Nuttin - http://www.bahamianornuttin.com
<http://www.bahamianornuttin.com/>
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Re: [RDD] Building a music library.

[Andy Higginson]

Hi,

As you say, this is a major undertaking, so you need to get this right from the 
beginning.  You don't want to be making any mistakes.  

My tips would have to be.
1) Make sure you start off at the right bit rate.  Do you use 44100 or 48000?  
Part of this will depend on how you are going to be using the audio.  Will you 
be feeding other kit (mixers etc) in the digital domain?  IE is your output 
SPDIF,  AES/EBU, Livewire etc?  If so, it will be worth you using 48k.  Don't 
just think about what you use now.  2 years down the line you don't want to be 
having to convert the library to a different bit rate.

2) Check your audio sources.  TWIRT did a very good programme that covered this 
issue.  They were saying that a song might have been released on a large number 
of different CDs.  These include remastered versions of Albums, but also on 
compilation CDs.  However, the quality of the master used may vary.  For 
instance, the quality of a track on a compilation album might be really bad in 
comparison to getting that track from an original release of the bands album.  
Another issue that you have with CDs is that a lot of the so called 
"Remastered" releases have been dynamically compressed as part of the loudness 
wars, and will be totally rubbish compared to the original release.  That is 
not to say that all Remastered CDs are bad.  In fact some are positively great.

3) Do not use MP3s (or AAC etc).  These are lossy formats.  You WILL lose some 
of original quality of the recording.  Also, if your output goes through a 
codec before it hits the listener then you might get the issue with multiple 
compression / decompression stages.  Where an MP3 sounds OK in the studio, it 
might go through another couple of compression / decompression stages before it 
hits the listener and by this time it sounds awful.

4) Pace yourself.  Don't overdo it.  There is a limit to how much you can do in 
one session before you start making silly mistakes with the markers (Start / 
End / Talktime / Segue).

There are probably many more tips, but these are my few.

Andy




  On Fri, 28 Apr 2017 05:34:32 +0100 James Greenlee <ja...@madsonics.com> 
wrote  
 > Fair enoughBut if I were going to run a station unattended, there's 
 > nobody to load CD's into players to play cuts off of a disc.  Thus the "on 
 > Rivendell" part of the question. 
 >  
 > My assumption is that I would need to rip some CD's to files, import those 
 > files to carts, and make sure all the meta data is there. 
 >  
 > - Original Message - 
 > From: "Cowboy" <c...@cwf1.com> 
 > To: rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org 
 > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 9:37:08 PM 
 > Subject: Re: [RDD] Building a music library. 
 >  
 > On Thursday 27 April 2017 07:51:23 pm James Greenlee wrote: 
 > > What are some good methods/strategies for building a music library on 
 > > Rivendell?  
 >  
 >  "on Rivendell" is irrelevant. 
 >  
 >  A music library is merely a collection of songs, cuts, and pieces. 
 >  Mine are predominantly burned on CD. 
 >  
 > --  
 > Cowboy 
 >  
 > http://cowboy.cwf1.com 
 >  
 > Carmel, New York, has an ordinance forbidding men to wear coats and 
 > trousers that don't match. 
 > ___ 
 > Rivendell-dev mailing list 
 > Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org 
 > http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev 
 > ___ 
 > Rivendell-dev mailing list 
 > Rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org 
 > http://caspian.paravelsystems.com/mailman/listinfo/rivendell-dev 
 > 


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Re: [RDD] Building a music library.

[James Greenlee]

Fair enoughBut if I were going to run a station unattended, there's nobody 
to load CD's into players to play cuts off of a disc.  Thus the "on Rivendell" 
part of the question.

My assumption is that I would need to rip some CD's to files, import those 
files to carts, and make sure all the meta data is there.

- Original Message -
From: "Cowboy" <c...@cwf1.com>
To: rivendell-dev@lists.rivendellaudio.org
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 9:37:08 PM
Subject: Re: [RDD] Building a music library.

On Thursday 27 April 2017 07:51:23 pm James Greenlee wrote:
> What are some good methods/strategies for building a music library on 
> Rivendell? 

 "on Rivendell" is irrelevant.

 A music library is merely a collection of songs, cuts, and pieces.
 Mine are predominantly burned on CD.

-- 
Cowboy

http://cowboy.cwf1.com

Carmel, New York, has an ordinance forbidding men to wear coats and
trousers that don't match.
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Re: [RDD] Building a music library.

[Cowboy]

On Thursday 27 April 2017 07:51:23 pm James Greenlee wrote:
> What are some good methods/strategies for building a music library on 
> Rivendell? 

 "on Rivendell" is irrelevant.

 A music library is merely a collection of songs, cuts, and pieces.
 Mine are predominantly burned on CD.

-- 
Cowboy

http://cowboy.cwf1.com

Carmel, New York, has an ordinance forbidding men to wear coats and
trousers that don't match.
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