Re: fs#10766
Hi. Sean Inglis has posted a much improved version of his patch to this task. Addressing the comments raised on list. Is there any possibility of committing this? I know it needs a manual entry writing for it, I would be happy to do this but am not at all sure where to start with writing entries for the manual.
Re: fs#10766
Yes, so cancelling automatically on pause (and on stop and on track change) would be desirable/required additions to this patch, and an undo-within-timelimit would defeat the benefit and spirit of this patch. On 13 Aug 2010 14:27, "The Seven" wrote: >> and skipping to new tracks is still possible, you just have to do a >> double click either on left or right respectively and that will jump you >> to the next or previous track. > > This means that each of the binary seeks needs to have a delay of about > a second in between to not be interpreted as a track skip? >
Re: fs#10766
> and skipping to new tracks is still possible, you just have to do a > double click either on left or right respectively and that will jump you > to the next or previous track. This means that each of the binary seeks needs to have a delay of about a second in between to not be interpreted as a track skip? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: fs#10766
On 08/12/2010 01:40 PM, Dave Hooper wrote: I just mean the converse: if the music was already paused, you probably don't want to unpause it just to cancel the binary skipping. Isn't the whole point of the binary seeking (we are talking about seeking within a track and not skipping between tracks, yes?) to be able to audibly locate your position? I'm not sure why one would want to be paused while using this feature. yes, this is the point of the feature, if you had a file paused while using this feature you would basically lose most of the benefits of it. I only use this feature with long files, such as audio book tracks and film soundtracks, and I can't see why anyone would want to use it with fairly short files. and skipping to new tracks is still possible, you just have to do a double click either on left or right respectively and that will jump you to the next or previous track. As a matter of fact, I would like to see this double click behaviour extended to the rest of skip length, so that it is possible to navigate in fixed chunks as before, but a double press of right or left would move to the next or previous track.
Re: fs#10766
On 13.08.2010 06:02, David Hall wrote: The advantage I see to this new-style of seeking, and perhaps I'm projecting too much of _my_ envisioned usage, is that it allows you to quickly, audibly, dig down to a specific spot in a large (long) track. I agree. I think this binary skipping is great for a specific usage (long audio books). Things like undo (btw, I think undo would be sufficiently handled with still available ff / rewind) or track skipping are trying to make it a general purpose skip mechanism. I think that's not what it wants to be (but I'm not the author so I cannot say that for sure), therefore I vote to keep it simple and recommend putting it into the quickscreen to quickly change to other skip length options. Best regards.
Re: fs#10766
On 08/12/2010 03:31 PM, Ray Lambert wrote: > How about this: a click in the opposing direction within a short time -- > say 1 or 2 seconds -- jumps back to the previous position *without* > halving the distance. > > I presume the timeout is set at 5 seconds in order to give the user time > to hear the content and decide which way to seek next. I also presume > that the user knows almost immediately when he/she has moved in the > wrong direction. So a quick jump in the other direction would then > 'undo' the mistake. > While it is a nice idea in that it doesn't take up a key assignment, I don't believe it adequately addresses the fundamental problem. Your solution changes the problem from "can't go back across your last bifurcation" to "can't go back across your next-to-last bifurcation". Your idea also removes the ability to bifurcate in both directions quickly. I would start at 0% in the track, jump to 50% (forward), and could not jump to 25% (back) without waiting 2 seconds. To get to the 33% point of a track one would need to wait for your timeout four times. The advantage I see to this new-style of seeking, and perhaps I'm projecting too much of _my_ envisioned usage, is that it allows you to quickly, audibly, dig down to a specific spot in a large (long) track. If one has to wait for a timeout every time one wishes to go back, the speed advantage over standard seeking would appear to be diminished, if not negated. --soap
Re: fs#10766
On 08/12/2010 01:40 PM, Dave Hooper wrote: > I just mean the converse: if the music was already paused, you probably > don't want to unpause it just to cancel the binary skipping. > Isn't the whole point of the binary seeking (we are talking about seeking within a track and not skipping between tracks, yes?) to be able to audibly locate your position? I'm not sure why one would want to be paused while using this feature. --soap
Re: fs#10766
Am 12.08.2010 21:41, schrieb Dave Hooper: > Regarding using scrollwheel to change track position: you then lose the > ability to change volume. You still need some user-driven mode switch to > say what you want the various buttons to do, and this is no different > really. Perhaps a 'use scrollwheel' skip mode could ALSO be added, and > then you need to disable it to change volume, but that seems a bit > convoluted in my opinion. If you can think of an intuitive modeswitch to > let user use scrollwheel for track position, the same modeswitch could > be used to activate/deactivate skip mode too, rather than going to > Settings menu? I really like the Apple UI when it comes to this: By default, the wheel will change volume. If you press the center button once and then scroll the wheel, it will skip. If you press the center button again and then scroll, you can modify the rating of the track. Once there is no activity for a few seconds, it will go back to volume changing mode. The problem is that this would need a short press button for the mode switch (ideally the center one), which is currently mapped differently. I personally would like to sacrifice the "go to file browser" button in favor of that. You could still go to the file browser through the menu, or we could add it as the first entry in the context menu. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: fs#10766
I'm not terribly interested in this feature but an idea occurred to me while scanning your messages about 'undo'. How about this: a click in the opposing direction within a short time -- say 1 or 2 seconds -- jumps back to the previous position *without* halving the distance. I presume the timeout is set at 5 seconds in order to give the user time to hear the content and decide which way to seek next. I also presume that the user knows almost immediately when he/she has moved in the wrong direction. So a quick jump in the other direction would then 'undo' the mistake. Since I don't use this though maybe this idea conflicts with normal usage in some way? Just a thought... ~ray -- In a world without walls and fences, who needs windows and gates?
Re: fs#10766
I'm not terribly interested in this feature but an idea occurred to me while scanning your messages about 'undo'. How about this: a click in the opposing direction within a short time -- say 1 or 2 seconds -- jumps back to the previous position *without* halving the distance. I presume the timeout is set at 5 seconds in order to give the user time to hear the content and decide which way to seek next. I also presume that the user knows almost immediately when he/she has moved in the wrong direction. So a quick jump in the other direction would then 'undo' the mistake. Since I don't use this though maybe this idea conflicts with normal usage in some way? Just a thought... ~ray -- In a world without walls and fences, who needs windows and gates?
Re: fs#10766
Yes that's correct. You have to enable the skip mode yourself first, and the existing skip mode skips forward/backward in fixed-sized chunks. The fs is just a different alternative skip mode but you still have to activate the skip mode to do it. Perhaps (although unrelated to the current discussion), activating skip mode should also change the behaviour of skip-to-next-directory (short+long) to skip to next track instead. But then you lose the ability to skip to next directory, etc. Regarding using scrollwheel to change track position: you then lose the ability to change volume. You still need some user-driven mode switch to say what you want the various buttons to do, and this is no different really. Perhaps a 'use scrollwheel' skip mode could ALSO be added, and then you need to disable it to change volume, but that seems a bit convoluted in my opinion. If you can think of an intuitive modeswitch to let user use scrollwheel for track position, the same modeswitch could be used to activate/deactivate skip mode too, rather than going to Settings menu? On 12 Aug 2010 18:14, "The Seven" wrote: >> The skip mode overrides the short-press behavior, not the long-press >> behaviour. > > So this means that one can't skip tracks any more? >
Re: fs#10766
Long press on play is a bad idea for ipods, it will switch off! Double-press on play just works for free if we say a single press cancels it AND pauses. It will pause and unpause. Or, if already paused, unpause then repause. Win.
Re: fs#10766
I just mean the converse: if the music was already paused, you probably don't want to unpause it just to cancel the binary skipping. On 12 Aug 2010 18:19, "alex wallis" wrote: > (I think it gets more complicated though if the skip mode also works when paused; if so, you probably don't want it to start playing when you hit-pause-to-cancel-binary-skip, so maybe a different method is needed... or just leave it with a hidden 5-sec timeout, really) > > I don't understand the above point can you please explain what you mean? > > I think consistency is important in rockbox. So, if pause was going to be used to reset the time, it should also pause the audio I think as well when pressed. Hi, sorry for the double post. But I just had a thought, either a long press of play/pause could be used for canceling the timing, or alternatively as an undo skip command. But I also just thought of a third option. What about a quick double press on the button? Similar to a double click with a mouse button, that would be another option to explore for use with undo or canceling the mode.
Re: fs#10766
I just mean the converse: if the music was already paused, you probably don't want to unpause it just to cancel the binary skipping. OK, well why couldn't you have a long press of pause would cancel? I don't think that would conflict with anything would it? so a short press would pause or resume the audio, and a long press would cancel. Alternatively, perhaps a long press could be used to undo the last skip? What do you think?
Re: fs#10766
I just mean the converse: if the music was already paused, you probably don't want to unpause it just to cancel the binary skipping. On 12 Aug 2010 18:19, "alex wallis" wrote: > (I think it gets more complicated though if the skip mode also works when paused; if so, you probably don't want it to start playing when you hit-pause-to-cancel-binary-skip, so maybe a different method is needed... or just leave it with a hidden 5-sec timeout, really) > > I don't understand the above point can you please explain what you mean? > > I think consistency is important in rockbox. So, if pause was going to be used to reset the time, it should also pause the audio I think as well when pressed.
Re: fs#10766
(I think it gets more complicated though if the skip mode also works when paused; if so, you probably don't want it to start playing when you hit-pause-to-cancel-binary-skip, so maybe a different method is needed... or just leave it with a hidden 5-sec timeout, really) I don't understand the above point can you please explain what you mean? I think consistency is important in rockbox. So, if pause was going to be used to reset the time, it should also pause the audio I think as well when pressed.
Re: fs#10766
> The skip mode overrides the short-press behavior, not the long-press > behaviour. So this means that one can't skip tracks any more? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: fs#10766
The skip mode overrides the short-press behavior, not the long-press behaviour. On 12 Aug 2010 00:44, "The Seven" wrote: > How does all this work with targets, where seeking is mapped to a long > press of the skip button, like on iPods? Do I have to press the button > for a second for every step? What happens if I hold it? > > The current way (seeking with acceleration as long as the button is > being held) seems fine to me, and could only be outperformed by an > apple-like approach of using the wheel for setting the position, which I > would really appreciate in Rockbox. >
Re: fs#10766
(I think it gets more complicated though if the skip mode also works when paused; if so, you probably don't want it to start playing when you hit-pause-to-cancel-binary-skip, so maybe a different method is needed... or just leave it with a hidden 5-sec timeout, really)
Re: fs#10766
Using pause to reset sounds ideal to me. Would it also pause, though, or just 'secretly' cancel the search? For consistency, it probably should also pause; otherwise you never know for certainty whether the pause button will pause playback which is not user-friendly.
Re: fs#10766
On 8/11/2010 12:43 PM, David Hall wrote: I just wanted to chime in (and this part of the thread is as good as any) that I have no strong opinions either way on an "undo" option, but wanted to simply provoke this discussion. Glad to see it taking place. (and my ISP is still f'd up) I personally don't care whether it has an undo, but I did just want to clarify the distinction between this and other features. If you over-seek, you can re-wind back. With this, you have to stop, wait, then do it. An option might be to just have a way to quickly reset it, such as allowing pause/unpause to "release" it so that you can start fresh. It'd be another "secret command" but not one hard to do, and not one likely to be done accidentally and thus mess up someone trying to use it. I wouldn't mind if pressing the pause button quickly reset it, and I don't have any strong feelings about having or not having a true undo feature either, I can see both sides of the argument.
Re: fs#10766
How does all this work with targets, where seeking is mapped to a long press of the skip button, like on iPods? Do I have to press the button for a second for every step? What happens if I hold it? The current way (seeking with acceleration as long as the button is being held) seems fine to me, and could only be outperformed by an apple-like approach of using the wheel for setting the position, which I would really appreciate in Rockbox. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: fs#10766
On 8/11/2010 12:43 PM, David Hall wrote: I just wanted to chime in (and this part of the thread is as good as any) that I have no strong opinions either way on an "undo" option, but wanted to simply provoke this discussion. Glad to see it taking place. (and my ISP is still f'd up) I personally don't care whether it has an undo, but I did just want to clarify the distinction between this and other features. If you over-seek, you can re-wind back. With this, you have to stop, wait, then do it. An option might be to just have a way to quickly reset it, such as allowing pause/unpause to "release" it so that you can start fresh. It'd be another "secret command" but not one hard to do, and not one likely to be done accidentally and thus mess up someone trying to use it.
Re: fs#10766
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:08:31 -0500 Paul Louden wrote: > On 8/11/2010 8:00 AM, Thomas Martitz wrote: > > > > I like the general idea, but I think an undo feature is > > complicating it too much. Plus, we haven't got an undo for any > > other sort of stuff in Rockbox. > > Yeah, but normal seeking doesn't prevent you from seeking back if you > go too far, whereas this does unless you wait 5 seconds for the > timeout. I just wanted to chime in (and this part of the thread is as good as any) that I have no strong opinions either way on an "undo" option, but wanted to simply provoke this discussion. Glad to see it taking place. (and my ISP is still f'd up)
Re: fs#10766
On 8/11/2010 8:00 AM, Thomas Martitz wrote: I like the general idea, but I think an undo feature is complicating it too much. Plus, we haven't got an undo for any other sort of stuff in Rockbox. Yeah, but normal seeking doesn't prevent you from seeking back if you go too far, whereas this does unless you wait 5 seconds for the timeout.
Re: fs#10766
Well, one problem is that it's a modal interface without any indicator - I wouldn't personally mind having to wait 5 secs for the binary jump mode to finish but there's no visible (or audible?) way of knowing. A real undo would be limited to the availability of target keys (and their original meanings, which imo should not change for the sake of the binary jump mode being activated). So perhaps add Undo Last Skip to the context menu? That could be an interesting option. I do think Thomas is right, maybe a true undo would be making it a bit complicated, but I can also see your point of why an undo would also be good. Perhaps you could have some subtle click sound play just to indicate when search mode had timed out, as five seconds isn't a long time to wait at all really.
Re: fs#10766
On 11.08.2010 14:55, Dave Hooper wrote: Well, one problem is that it's a modal interface without any indicator - I wouldn't personally mind having to wait 5 secs for the binary jump mode to finish but there's no visible (or audible?) way of knowing. A real undo would be limited to the availability of target keys (and their original meanings, which imo should not change for the sake of the binary jump mode being activated). So perhaps add Undo Last Skip to the context menu? I like the general idea, but I think an undo feature is complicating it too much. Plus, we haven't got an undo for any other sort of stuff in Rockbox. Best regards
Re: fs#10766
Well, one problem is that it's a modal interface without any indicator - I wouldn't personally mind having to wait 5 secs for the binary jump mode to finish but there's no visible (or audible?) way of knowing. A real undo would be limited to the availability of target keys (and their original meanings, which imo should not change for the sake of the binary jump mode being activated). So perhaps add Undo Last Skip to the context menu?
Re: fs#10766
I think David Hall's point was about what happens if you press the wrong direction. E.g. let's say you're in the middle and you press right by mistake (you meant to press left). Subsequently, no amount of pressing left again will ever take you further left than the midpoint. You msut wait for the secret timeout and then start again (no 'undo') Oh yes, I see your point. Well, I guess maybe Sean is best qualified to answer that one, but how could you build an undo feature in? Given that a single press of left or right will do the binary skip in eather direction, and a rapid press of left or right twice quickly, will jump you to the next or previous track on the latest version.respectively. The only option I can see for an undo feature would be either a single or double press of up or down. What do you think?
Re: fs#10766
I think David Hall's point was about what happens if you press the wrong direction. E.g. let's say you're in the middle and you press right by mistake (you meant to press left). Subsequently, no amount of pressing left again will ever take you further left than the midpoint. You msut wait for the secret timeout and then start again (no 'undo')
Re: fs#10766
What happens if / when you make a mistake and jump the wrong direction? Well if you press the opposite direction to the one you intended, you are skipped in the other direction, half the distance of your previous jump, so of course you have to go back in the other direction to get back to where you want to be. Bare in mind though, that what is on the tracker isn't the latest version.
Re: fs#10766
What happens if / when you make a mistake and jump the wrong direction? Well if you press the opposite direction to the one you intended, you are skipped in the other direction, half the distance of your previous jump, so of course you have to go back in the other direction to get back to where you want to be. Bare in mind though, that what is on the tracker isn't the latest version.
Re: fs#10766
Wait 5 seconds and the mode stops; a subsequent skip is then treated as beginning a new binary search. Having said that, it would be great if there was a way to 'undo' the last skip..
Re: fs#10766
What happens if / when you make a mistake and jump the wrong direction?
