[sage-devel] Re: sage 2.10 experimental ebuild for Gentoo
On Jan 21, 2008 11:36 PM, Francois <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On Jan 22, 8:04 pm, mabshoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > dortmund.de> wrote: > > > > On the funny side of things my regular copy fails the calculus.py > > > test > > > because it takes too much time, my ebuild one passes it without > > > problem. > > > > Ok, that is odd. Does it timeout or hang? > > > Timeout: > sage -t devel/sage-main/sage/calculus/calculus.py *** *** > Error: TIMED OUT! *** *** > *** *** Error: TIMED OUT! *** *** > [182.4 s] > > OF course the ebuild one may have some extra optimizations from > the Gentoo C(XX)FLAGS that I didn't kill and the test is run by root > and not a regular user. > > For BLAS I use ATLAS-3.8.0 I don't think there is any differences > between the sources used by Gentoo and sage (tell me if I am > wrong) you have the Gentoo patch and we also have the > pentium-M patch. The only difference I can think of is one was > compiled by gfortran and the other by g95. > The calculus.py module likely doesn't use ATLAS at all. The only thing that would have much of an impact on speed would be Maxima, probably. What hardware are you using exactly? On a 2.6Ghz machine I get: teragon:calculus was$ sage -t calculus.py sage -t calculus.py [44.3 s] What happens if you do sage -t --verbose calculus.py i.e., do you visibly see any doctests taking a really long time? For me the main time takers are some plots (this should be optimized soon, actually.) I seem to vaguely recall maybe you are using a different version of Maxima than the one in Sage? Maybe the newer Maxima is simply faster at some key operations, or maybe we compile clisp or maxima in some stupid way that makes it slower (that would be _very_ interesting to get to the bottom of, it is the case). William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: sage 2.10 experimental ebuild for Gentoo
On Jan 22, 8:36 am, Francois <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Jan 22, 8:04 pm, mabshoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Francois, > dortmund.de> wrote: > > > On the funny side of things my regular copy fails the calculus.py > > > test > > > because it takes too much time, my ebuild one passes it without > > > problem. > > > Ok, that is odd. Does it timeout or hang? > > Timeout: > sage -t devel/sage-main/sage/calculus/calculus.py *** *** > Error: TIMED OUT! *** *** > *** *** Error: TIMED OUT! *** *** > [182.4 s] That is very odd. Can you run that test with -verbose and post a link to the result somewhere? I wouldn't be surprised if clisp choked on some optimization flags, but that is speculation at this point. > OF course the ebuild one may have some extra optimizations from > the Gentoo C(XX)FLAGS that I didn't kill and the test is run by root > and not a regular user. > > For BLAS I use ATLAS-3.8.0 I don't think there is any differences > between the sources used by Gentoo and sage (tell me if I am > wrong) you have the Gentoo patch and we also have the > pentium-M patch. The only difference I can think of is one was > compiled by gfortran and the other by g95. Well, even playing with CFLAGS can change the results even so slightly. > Cheers, > Francois Cheers, Michael --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: sage 2.10 experimental ebuild for Gentoo
On Jan 22, 8:04 pm, mabshoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED] dortmund.de> wrote: > > On the funny side of things my regular copy fails the calculus.py > > test > > because it takes too much time, my ebuild one passes it without > > problem. > > Ok, that is odd. Does it timeout or hang? > Timeout: sage -t devel/sage-main/sage/calculus/calculus.py *** *** Error: TIMED OUT! *** *** *** *** Error: TIMED OUT! *** *** [182.4 s] OF course the ebuild one may have some extra optimizations from the Gentoo C(XX)FLAGS that I didn't kill and the test is run by root and not a regular user. For BLAS I use ATLAS-3.8.0 I don't think there is any differences between the sources used by Gentoo and sage (tell me if I am wrong) you have the Gentoo patch and we also have the pentium-M patch. The only difference I can think of is one was compiled by gfortran and the other by g95. Cheers, Francois --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: rpm's, deb, and ebuilds,
On Jan 22, 6:14 am, "Soroosh Yazdani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Jan 21, 2008 5:00 PM, mabshoff < > > Hmm, I think there is a problem when building the extensions since you > > will need to have write permissions to copy the resulting dynamic > > library over. That could be potentially avoided by having the Sage > > python directory in there too, but I am not quite sure how much work > > needs to be done to make that possible. > > hmm, why do I need write permission in that directory? Naively, I don't see > when sage needs to write to that directory, so I'm curious. I think you are right that if you clone the sage repo into ~/.sage all new libraries that are created will also be under that directory. But you don't usually have the permission to create the link in $SAGE_ROOT/ devel. > Cheers, > Soroosh Cheers, Michael --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: rpm's, deb, and ebuilds,
Hi Soroosh, On Jan 22, 6:14 pm, "Soroosh Yazdani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Jan 21, 2008 5:00 PM, mabshoff < > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hi Soroosh, > > Hi Michael, > > > > > Hmm, I think there is a problem when building the extensions since you > > will need to have write permissions to copy the resulting dynamic > > library over. That could be potentially avoided by having the Sage > > python directory in there too, but I am not quite sure how much work > > needs to be done to make that possible. > > hmm, why do I need write permission in that directory? Naively, I don't see > when sage needs to write to that directory, so I'm curious. > Actually I am not a python expert but that brings a question to me. Python usually put its modules/libraries in a location defined by either PYTHONHOME or PYTHONPATH and one of the things sage do is set PYTHONPATH so as to only see its own version of python. Now I am wondering if we can tell python to look for modules in several location in order, like you can with executables for example with the PATH variable. In this case you wouldn't have to copy over all the python directory but just put new stuff overriding or supplementing sage one in a defined directory, say $HOME/.sage/python/ . Also as it stand the sage python directory on my home machine is 700MB while modern hard drive can laugh at it, the "antique" I am writing this on would not appreciate very much the copying over. Furthermore being able to do this, means that I can start touching python packages in sage without having to do everyone of them at once. Cheers, Francois --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: sage 2.10 experimental ebuild for Gentoo
Hi Francois, > Thanks for looking into it, but I should have made something clear > before > sending you on a possible chase. > I have two copy of sage currently on my system. The ebuild one and a > regular one in my own home directory to check everything works OK. > So the ebuild one fails the test but the regular one passes it. If you > still > think that's fixable then that's very good. It is already fixed and merged into 2.10.1.alpha1. The difference is that you probably use a different BLAS. > On the funny side of things my regular copy fails the calculus.py > test > because it takes too much time, my ebuild one passes it without > problem. Ok, that is odd. Does it timeout or hang? > Cheers, > Francois Cheers, Michael --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: sage 2.10 experimental ebuild for Gentoo
Hi Micheal, On Jan 22, 10:40 am, mabshoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED] dortmund.de> wrote: > On Jan 21, 1:02 am, Francois <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Jan 21, 12:36 pm, mabshoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > Hi Michael, > > > I will do something about the license. In the maintime here is > > qqbar.py failure: > > File "qqbar.py", line 3075: > > sage: cp.complex_roots(30, 1) > > Expected: > > [[1.1892071150027208 .. 1.1892071150027213], > > [-1.1892071150027213 .. -1.18920711500272...], [1.1892071150027208 .. > > 1.1892071150027213]*I, [-1.1892071150027213 .. -1.1892071150027208]*I] > > Got: > > [[1.1892071150027208 .. 1.1892071150027213], > > [-1.1892071150027213 .. -1.1892071150027210], [1.1892071150027210 .. > > 1.1892071150027213]*I, [-1.1892071150027213 .. -1.1892071150027208]*I] > > ** > > 1 items had failures: > >1 of 3 in __main__.example_76 > > ***Test Failed*** 1 failures. > > Hi Francois, > > This is actually a numerical issue (from numpy or pari, but I am not > sure where the precision cutoff for roots is) and easily fixable. This > is now #1880 and it should be fixed in the next couple hours depending > on what I do first ;) > > > Thanks for looking into it, but I should have made something clear before sending you on a possible chase. I have two copy of sage currently on my system. The ebuild one and a regular one in my own home directory to check everything works OK. So the ebuild one fails the test but the regular one passes it. If you still think that's fixable then that's very good. On the funny side of things my regular copy fails the calculus.py test because it takes too much time, my ebuild one passes it without problem. Cheers, Francois --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Sage/Scipy Days 8 reminder: Feb 29-March 4.
Hi all, Just a quick reminder for all about the upcoming Sage/Scipy Days 8 at Enthought collaborative meeting: http://wiki.sagemath.org/days8 Email me directly ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) if you plan on coming, so we can have a proper count and plan accordingly. Cheers, f --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: MPolynomialRing.__str__
On Jan 20, 2008, at 11:13 PM, William Stein wrote:
> On Jan 20, 2008 2:58 PM, Nick Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 20-Jan-08, at 2:47 PM, Simon King wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Dear Nick
>>>
>>> On Jan 20, 8:24 pm, Nick Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I've always hated that x/y and print x/y can do different things at
the prompt, but it sounds like I'm fighting a losing battle.
>>>
>>> Sorry for coming into your discussion. I actually appreciate that
>>> x/y
>>> and print x/y do different things, for the following reason.
>>>
>>> If someone defines some sage object X and just types
>>> sage: X
>>> then the command is very short, and when i ask a short question, the
>>> answer ought to be short as well.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, if the user's demand on displaying X is more
>>> elaborate, such as
>>> sage: print X
>>> then the displayed information should be more elaborate as well.
>>
>> One reason that I don't like this is that in the notebook, only the
>> final 'sage: X' shows that way. Before that, one must use print.
>> Why the different semantics?
>>
>
> Currently in the notebook we have this behavior:
>
> {{{id=14|
> a = 5
> a
> 2 + 2
> ///
> 4
> }}}
>
> Nick asks why this doesn't happen:
>
> {{{id=14|
> a = 5
> a
> 2 + 2
> ///
> 5
> 4
> }}}
>
> The answer is --- I couldn't figure out how to implement the latter
> (in sage/server/notebook/worksheet.py).
> That's it. I just don't know how to do it. It's nothing more
> mysterious than that. If I could figure
> out how to implement the latter I would.
I'd imagine one would do it the same was as doctests, (almost) always
assigning to a variable and then spitting out the string if it is not
None... This doesn't solve the issue printing things from within a
function (and detecting that would require more complicated parsing
too).
- Robert
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[sage-devel] Re: MPolynomialRing.__str__
On Jan 20, 2008, at 2:47 PM, Simon King wrote: > On Jan 20, 8:24 pm, Nick Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I've always hated that x/y and print x/y can do different things at >> the prompt, but it sounds like I'm fighting a losing battle. I've always disliked this as well. It has never been very intrusive until the symbolics package though, but is now especially annoying when printing lists, or other compound objects. And having to do "print repr(x), repr(y)" seems kludgy compared to "print x, y" (either before the last line in a notebook cell, or within a function anywhere). If we want to use "pretty printing" for symbolics I think it should be handled the same way jsmath representations are in the notebook. > Sorry for coming into your discussion. I actually appreciate that x/y > and print x/y do different things, for the following reason. > > If someone defines some sage object X and just types > sage: X > then the command is very short, and when i ask a short question, the > answer ought to be short as well. > > On the other hand, if the user's demand on displaying X is more > elaborate, such as > sage: print X > then the displayed information should be more elaborate as well. > > Hence, it makes sense to me that X.__repr__() (which is invoked by > sage: X) just returns a brief description, while X.__str__() (invoked > by sage: print X) can be more lengthy and should be descriptive enough > to reconstruct X. I think that we have (justifiably) moved away from the requirement that str(x) be descriptive enough to reconstruct x in all cases, and instead focus on good pickling. If one wants more information about x, one can call functions on it, like asking for its parent (rather than requiring parents to be printed in str representations). It has never been very intuitive (to me, at least) to remember which of repr vs. str is the long one, and which is used for print. - Robert --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: rpm's, deb, and ebuilds,
On Jan 21, 2008 5:00 PM, mabshoff < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Soroosh, Hi Michael, > > Hmm, I think there is a problem when building the extensions since you > will need to have write permissions to copy the resulting dynamic > library over. That could be potentially avoided by having the Sage > python directory in there too, but I am not quite sure how much work > needs to be done to make that possible. hmm, why do I need write permission in that directory? Naively, I don't see when sage needs to write to that directory, so I'm curious. Cheers, Soroosh --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: rpm's, deb, and ebuilds,
On Jan 21, 2008 4:59 PM, William Stein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Jan 21, 2008 1:50 PM, Soroosh Yazdani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > there seems to be some exciting progress in making packages for sage. > > However, I'm curious if there is a plan for allowing normal users have > their > > own sage libraries that they can edit. That is, if a normal user runs > "sage > > -clone" on a sage that is globally installed, a copy of the cloned > directory > > will be made in his home directory, and he can edit the appropriate > files. > > And from then on, there is a hg branch that he will have access to. > > Packaging sage for distributions and your question about normal users > editing > copies of the main Sage library are orthogonal issues. The question > you raise has already been around for a long time, since very often Sage > is installed system-wide on a system (e.g., on meccah.math.harvard.edu, > there is no a new system-wide sage install, that only I have write > permission > to use). I am not aware of any plans to address this problem; generally I agree that there are two different problems in here, but I'm not sure if you can consider them orthogonal. Although, my view of this is based on the fact that I keep on playing with the internals of sage, so I assume that everybody is doing that. As you point out at the bottom of your email, that is changing. > > speaking it is best for people to just install their only copy of Sage > in their home directory, which avoids some problematic issues > that any solution to the problem you pose would introduce. E.g., suppose > you make your own branch and start editing it, then your sysadmin upgrades > Sage without you noticing. Of course your branch won't be upgraded, > but suddenly things could (and likely should in some cases) stop working. What do we do right now if we call "sage -upgrade"? The same policy can work. > A link from where to devel/sage? You can't have > /usr/local/sage/devel/sage > point to one random particular users devel/sage. hmm, I meant the other way. I mean a soft link in the user's directory pointing to /usr/local/sage/devel/sage. Anyway, I think you bring up a very valid question. But probably the right > answer is to simply continue doing things they way we currently do. > rpm/debs/etc. are much more for people who are not doing development, > but just want to use sage. Likewise, if people are developing say pari, > they > would certainly build their own version of pari from source in their > home directory, > instead of somehow trying to develop on something installed as an rpm. > > In the not-to-distant future (and probably even now), the majority of > people > who use sage will not be editing the Sage library code directly... Keep > in mind, for example, that the great majority of Sage downloads right > now are of the vmware image for windows (there were about 1400 downloads > of Sage in the last month, and probably 30% were the vmware image). fair enough. Although, the main problem right now is that if you want to develop sage, you have to build pari, gap, maxima, atlas, ... from source as well. I look at packaging the binary as a way to ease up the building process a bit. It's hard to know how much this will help, but that's the mindset that I've had when I made the above post. Cheers, Soroosh --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: [sage-newbie] Re: Sage for MacOS 10.5 (PPC)
Hi, First off, indeed, I do run a OSX 10.5 PPC system, and Sage does build correctly from source just fine. I've had weird build issues over time with fink installed ... I got rid of fink when I upgraded to 10.5, so I don't know if any remain. Just post to sage-support if you run into anything weird trying to build, and I'll try to help out. > > > > Is there a binary download of the PowerPC version of MacOS 10.5 > > > > Leopard? > > > > > > If not, it it possible to build from source on a 10.5 PPC system? > > > > > I know for a fact that Craig Citro builds Sage on OSX 10.5 PPC, so > > > building Sage does work. Maybe Craig can supply binaries in the future > > > since we do not have a PPC build box with OSX 10.5 on it? > > So I just downloaded and tested the 10.4 OSX PPC binary that is posted on www.sagemath.org. It passed sage -testall no problem on my machine. > > Right now I build all Sage binaries -- it's almost completely automatic. I > > am > > very reluctant to have to depend on some complicated pinging of people to > > build binaries for me, etc., (and also somewhat worried about the security > > implications of posting random binaries made by people). > I think I'm on William's side on this one -- my PPC machine is my laptop, which means it tends to go places with me, and generally wouldn't be reliably available to build binaries on. (Also, my ISP leaves something to be desired.) Here's my vote: given that the 10.4 binary seems to work just fine, I'd say we should continue just building the 10.4 binary until someone says that it doesn't work on 10.5. Hopefully, by that point, I'll have a new laptop, and then I can just donate this one to the Sage build farm ... -cc --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Wiris -- something like the Sage notebook sort of
On Jan 21, 2008 6:30 PM, Ted Kosan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> William wrote:
>
> > > Was the idea of Wiris using Sage as an additional calculation engine
> > > for their client discussed at all?
> >
> > No. Wiris is a commercial company
> > and I got the very strong impression that they view Sage as basically
> > potential competition whose mere existence is bad for them. In fact,
> > they're right to be worried, since there have been discussions
> > on sage-devel about modifying Sage
> > so that it could be rolled out in France/Spain for high school and college
> > use -- and that is _exactly_ the current market of Wiris. I definitely
> > suggested various times opportunities for collaboration, but I don't think
> > they
> > were interested at all and would rather we just didn't exist.
>
> This is what I suspected happened.
>
> The reason I bring this up is that I was just about to create some
> marketing materials which stated how much more powerful Sage was than
> a scientific calculator, and how people should seriously consider
> using Sage instead. I acquired a TI84 calculator recently and I was
> going to use it to show how Sage could absolutely run rings around it
> at a far lower cost.
>
> But then it came to me that instead of making TI an enemy, what I
> really wanted to see happen was for TI to embrace Sage and find ways
> to give their customers an enhanced level of service with it. TI
> might lose calculator sales to Sage in some areas, but if Sage is able
> to increase the use of mathematics in the world by, say, 5%, this
> should also expand the market for calculators which should benefit TI
> in the long run. TI should also be able to find other ways to make
> money with Sage.
>
> The reason this idea came to me was that I have followed Sun
> Microsystems very closely from about 1998 to the present and I watched
> how the open source community applied steady and relentless pressure
> to them during this period until they were transformed into an almost
> completely open source company. The transformation is so complete
> that they are even open sourcing their chip designs now and an
> increasing number of their upper-level managers are open source "rock
> stars".
>
> The way that you and Tom describe Wiris' reaction to Sage and the idea
> of collaboration sounds very similar to Sun's reaction to open source
> before their transformation. What I am thinking is that, if an
> arrogant company like Sun can be transformed by open source, then
> companies like Wiris and TI can be transformed too with enough
> persistence.
>
Interesting. I tried many times to convince John Cannon to open
source Magma, and always failed. In some ways, Sage is my final
attempt to convince Magma to open source. So far unfortunately
it is failed completely to achieve that, and I fear it never will, because
too many egos are involved (unlike Sun, which is probably more
about the bottom line).
> > I was also pretty soundly criticized by someone else at the Wiris booth for
> > (1)
> > not using OpenMath/MathML for communication between different components
> > of Sage, and (2) for not having an OpenMath output / input format for every
> > Sage object. I'm not really interested in starting a discussion
> > about this here
> > on sage-devel -- all that OpenMath stuff is nice in theory, but it doesn't
> > have
> > much to do with the sort of problems Sage is built to solve. With Sage the
> > goal is to create the best system we can using when possible very good
> > existing tools -- and the question is how best to do this. OpenMath doesn't
> > fit in at all for that problem. It may be very relevant for other
> > problems later on;
> > I don't know.
>
> The LaTeX --> OpenOffice translator I have been working on has forced
> me to think about LaTeX and MathML quite a bit and I think a separate
> thread on this topic would be interesting.
Sure, start another thread. Just to be clear, I meant only to be talking
about *content* MathML above, not presentation MathML.
> Anyway, while I was researching translators, I located the following
> python program that translates LaTeX to MathML. Perhaps it would be
> useful to add to Sage?:
>
> http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/tkosan/misc/latex2mathml.py
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~/hp_backup/tmp/scripts/scripts $ python latex2mathml.py
> "\frac{{x}^{2} }{7}"
>
> x27
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~/hp_backup/tmp/scripts/scripts $ python latex2mathml.py
> "{{{3 \cdot \sin \left( a \right)} \cdot b} \cdot {e}^{\frac{4}{c}} }"
>
> 3â
> sin minsize="1">(a)â
> bâ
> e4c
>
>
>
> Ted
>
> >
>
--
William Stein
Associate Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org
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[sage-devel] Re: Wiris -- something like the Sage notebook sort of
William wrote:
> > Was the idea of Wiris using Sage as an additional calculation engine
> > for their client discussed at all?
>
> No. Wiris is a commercial company
> and I got the very strong impression that they view Sage as basically
> potential competition whose mere existence is bad for them. In fact,
> they're right to be worried, since there have been discussions
> on sage-devel about modifying Sage
> so that it could be rolled out in France/Spain for high school and college
> use -- and that is _exactly_ the current market of Wiris. I definitely
> suggested various times opportunities for collaboration, but I don't think
> they
> were interested at all and would rather we just didn't exist.
This is what I suspected happened.
The reason I bring this up is that I was just about to create some
marketing materials which stated how much more powerful Sage was than
a scientific calculator, and how people should seriously consider
using Sage instead. I acquired a TI84 calculator recently and I was
going to use it to show how Sage could absolutely run rings around it
at a far lower cost.
But then it came to me that instead of making TI an enemy, what I
really wanted to see happen was for TI to embrace Sage and find ways
to give their customers an enhanced level of service with it. TI
might lose calculator sales to Sage in some areas, but if Sage is able
to increase the use of mathematics in the world by, say, 5%, this
should also expand the market for calculators which should benefit TI
in the long run. TI should also be able to find other ways to make
money with Sage.
The reason this idea came to me was that I have followed Sun
Microsystems very closely from about 1998 to the present and I watched
how the open source community applied steady and relentless pressure
to them during this period until they were transformed into an almost
completely open source company. The transformation is so complete
that they are even open sourcing their chip designs now and an
increasing number of their upper-level managers are open source "rock
stars".
The way that you and Tom describe Wiris' reaction to Sage and the idea
of collaboration sounds very similar to Sun's reaction to open source
before their transformation. What I am thinking is that, if an
arrogant company like Sun can be transformed by open source, then
companies like Wiris and TI can be transformed too with enough
persistence.
> I was also pretty soundly criticized by someone else at the Wiris booth for
> (1)
> not using OpenMath/MathML for communication between different components
> of Sage, and (2) for not having an OpenMath output / input format for every
> Sage object. I'm not really interested in starting a discussion
> about this here
> on sage-devel -- all that OpenMath stuff is nice in theory, but it doesn't
> have
> much to do with the sort of problems Sage is built to solve. With Sage the
> goal is to create the best system we can using when possible very good
> existing tools -- and the question is how best to do this. OpenMath doesn't
> fit in at all for that problem. It may be very relevant for other
> problems later on;
> I don't know.
The LaTeX --> OpenOffice translator I have been working on has forced
me to think about LaTeX and MathML quite a bit and I think a separate
thread on this topic would be interesting.
Anyway, while I was researching translators, I located the following
python program that translates LaTeX to MathML. Perhaps it would be
useful to add to Sage?:
http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/tkosan/misc/latex2mathml.py
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~/hp_backup/tmp/scripts/scripts $ python latex2mathml.py
"\frac{{x}^{2} }{7}"
x27
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~/hp_backup/tmp/scripts/scripts $ python latex2mathml.py
"{{{3 \cdot \sin \left( a \right)} \cdot b} \cdot {e}^{\frac{4}{c}} }"
3â
sin(a)â
bâ
e4c
Ted
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[sage-devel] Re: Wiris -- something like the Sage notebook sort of
On Mon, 21 Jan 2008, William Stein wrote: > > On Jan 21, 2008 4:16 PM, Ted Kosan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> William wrote: >> >>> Today at the AMS meeting Tom Boothby and I had a long talk with the >>> people at the "Wiris Booth": >>> http://www.wiris.com/ >>> Wiris is a closed source commercial math software company that makes a >>> web-based interface to their own custom mathematical software. >> >> Was the idea of Wiris using Sage as an additional calculation engine >> for their client discussed at all? > > No. Wiris is a commercial company > and I got the very strong impression that they view Sage as basically > potential competition whose mere existence is bad for them. In fact, > they're right to be worried... Our chat with them was strange, to say the least. One of them kept complimenting Sage, and saying how awesome it was -- and then, as William said, turned around and practically verbally abused us for not using OpenMath, and then went back to complimenting us. Another was friendly and diplomatic, and seemed really excited to show off the product. The third was quiet, and didn't say much until we left; when I shook his hand, he looked William in the eye, and said, "Wiris is going to beat Sage." Even if they were interested in using Sage as a calculation engine, I wouldn't lift a finger to help them; if it took any changes in our licensing, I'd refuse. They want to dominate the education market -- their literature said it, their salesperson was openly aggressive towards us. Unless they open their code, I will not support working with them one bit. I think that their interface looks nice (w00, rounded corners!) but that's about all that I like about their product. We have nothing to gain that would be worth the means. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Wiris -- something like the Sage notebook sort of
On Jan 21, 2008 4:16 PM, Ted Kosan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > William wrote: > > > Today at the AMS meeting Tom Boothby and I had a long talk with the > > people at the "Wiris Booth": > > http://www.wiris.com/ > > Wiris is a closed source commercial math software company that makes a > > web-based interface to their own custom mathematical software. > > Was the idea of Wiris using Sage as an additional calculation engine > for their client discussed at all? No. Wiris is a commercial company and I got the very strong impression that they view Sage as basically potential competition whose mere existence is bad for them. In fact, they're right to be worried, since there have been discussions on sage-devel about modifying Sage so that it could be rolled out in France/Spain for high school and college use -- and that is _exactly_ the current market of Wiris. I definitely suggested various times opportunities for collaboration, but I don't think they were interested at all and would rather we just didn't exist. I was also pretty soundly criticized by someone else at the Wiris booth for (1) not using OpenMath/MathML for communication between different components of Sage, and (2) for not having an OpenMath output / input format for every Sage object. I'm not really interested in starting a discussion about this here on sage-devel -- all that OpenMath stuff is nice in theory, but it doesn't have much to do with the sort of problems Sage is built to solve. With Sage the goal is to create the best system we can using when possible very good existing tools -- and the question is how best to do this. OpenMath doesn't fit in at all for that problem. It may be very relevant for other problems later on; I don't know. Just for concreteness, imagine if when you typed expand( (x+1)^3 ) the following happened: (1) (x+1)^3 is converted to some sort of XML openmath format. (2) That openmath format is sent to maxima via pexpect (3) A maxima function that I guess I would write converts that XML into a valid Maxima expression (4) Sage then requests calling expand on the result (5) Sage then asks Maxima to take that result and convert it to XML openmath format. (6) Sage asks Maxima to display the XML format and Sage reads it back. (7) Sage parses the XML format and constructs the Sage expression x^3 + 3*x^2 + 3*x + 1 This would just be a much more complicated, slower, and vastly more error prone version of what we already do. I see no value in it whatever. -- William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: generator inconsistencies in finite fields
> In this case, the docstring needs to be corrected, because the statement
> that "All elements x of self are expressed as log_{self.gen()}(p)
> internally" is not true, right? (Extrapolating from this sentence and my
> two examples led me to make my previous statements.) Probably it is true
> that all elements are expressible as polynomials in x, and perhaps this
> is also the internal representation.
Hi,
It is not. For small extension fields of order < 2^16 the elements are
represented using Zech logs internally, so for these finite fields the
docstring "all elements x of self are expressed as log_{self.gen()}(p)
internally" is true.
Martin
--
name: Martin Albrecht
_pgp: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x8EF0DC99
_www: http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/~malb
_jab: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[sage-devel] Re: Wiris -- something like the Sage notebook sort of
William wrote: > Today at the AMS meeting Tom Boothby and I had a long talk with the > people at the "Wiris Booth": > http://www.wiris.com/ > Wiris is a closed source commercial math software company that makes a > web-based interface to their own custom mathematical software. Was the idea of Wiris using Sage as an additional calculation engine for their client discussed at all? Ted --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: [sage-newbie] Re: Sage for MacOS 10.5 (PPC)
On Jan 22, 12:39 am, "William Stein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Jan 21, 2008 2:49 PM, mabshoff > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Jan 21, 11:45 pm, boyfarrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > Is there a binary download of the PowerPC version of MacOS 10.5 > > > Leopard? > > > > If not, it it possible to build from source on a 10.5 PPC system? > > > > Regards, > > > > Daniel > > > Hi Daniel, > > > I know for a fact that Craig Citro builds Sage on OSX 10.5 PPC, so > > building Sage does work. Maybe Craig can supply binaries in the future > > since we do not have a PPC build box with OSX 10.5 on it? > > I can confirm that I definitely do not have a PPC build box with OS X > 10.5 on it. OSX 10.5 server supposedly allows you to virtualize, but I think it won't be able to run instances of 10.4. So that isn't really a soliution. > Right now I build all Sage binaries -- it's almost completely automatic. I am > very reluctant to have to depend on some complicated pinging of people to > build binaries for me, etc., (and also somewhat worried about the security > implications of posting random binaries made by people). Sure, I didn't suggest to use random binaries off the net :) > It would complicate my workflow. Thus I think > we should post binaries for architure/OS XYZ if and only if somebody will give > me a net-accessible account on machine XYZ. Absolutely. > So Craig, can I have an account on your computer? :-). I would also consider Craig to be a non-random person you and many other people here know and trust. > If anybody else wishes that Sage had binaries for their favorite architecture, > but currently doesn't, e.g., SUSE, Gentoo, etc., consider providing me > with an account. Or alternatively provide a VMWare image so we can build locally. If your favourite Linux distribution is not supported that would probably be the quickest way. > -- William Cheers, Michael > -- > William Stein > Associate Professor of Mathematics > University of Washingtonhttp://wstein.org --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Fwd: [sage-newbie] Re: Sage for MacOS 10.5 (PPC)
On Jan 21, 2008 2:49 PM, mabshoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On Jan 21, 11:45 pm, boyfarrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hello, > > > > Is there a binary download of the PowerPC version of MacOS 10.5 > > Leopard? > > > > If not, it it possible to build from source on a 10.5 PPC system? > > > > Regards, > > > > Daniel > > Hi Daniel, > > I know for a fact that Craig Citro builds Sage on OSX 10.5 PPC, so > building Sage does work. Maybe Craig can supply binaries in the future > since we do not have a PPC build box with OSX 10.5 on it? I can confirm that I definitely do not have a PPC build box with OS X 10.5 on it. Right now I build all Sage binaries -- it's almost completely automatic. I am very reluctant to have to depend on some complicated pinging of people to build binaries for me, etc., (and also somewhat worried about the security implications of posting random binaries made by people). It would complicate my workflow. Thus I think we should post binaries for architure/OS XYZ if and only if somebody will give me a net-accessible account on machine XYZ. So Craig, can I have an account on your computer? :-). If anybody else wishes that Sage had binaries for their favorite architecture, but currently doesn't, e.g., SUSE, Gentoo, etc., consider providing me with an account. -- William -- William Stein Associate Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: http://wiki.sagemath.org/experimental_packages_available_for_SAGE
mabshoff wrote: > > > On Jan 21, 11:24 pm, Jaap Spies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> mabshoff wrote: > > > >>> I also don't like that in such a case some package goes of and >>> downloads other packages without asking the user. So would I would >>> like to see is a script that checks for a listed set of dependencies >>> and then tells the user: >>> I need to install cmake and setuputils. These packages will be >>> downloaded. Proceed ? >> I don't think this is important. When you are downloading, installing >> experimental packages, I suppose you know what you are doing. > > Well, as the user base gets less technically savvy this assumption > won't hold in my eyes. > The warning should be clear! Only do this if you know what you are doing! >>> Bonus points if you list the [approximate] sizes of the packages, >>> which could be stored inside the spkg you are currently installing. >>> This is error prone, but better than to find out that you need to >>> download 50MB additional packages of dialup :) >> See above. Dialup? I think this information could be in the second column >> ofhttp://www.sagemath.org/packages/experimental/ >> together with info os dependencies. > > Sure, but there are enough people out there who have limited download > capacity and we shouldn't assume European/American/Korean/Japanese > broadband standards. > Ok, this is for me a matter of concern too. We need a sponsor providing free DVDs! [...] What is the difference with a meta package like vtk-meta-0.1? This installs without questioning cmake, vtk, mayavi1, etcetera! Jaap --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: http://wiki.sagemath.org/experimental_packages_available_for_SAGE
On Jan 21, 11:24 pm, Jaap Spies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > mabshoff wrote: > > I also don't like that in such a case some package goes of and > > downloads other packages without asking the user. So would I would > > like to see is a script that checks for a listed set of dependencies > > and then tells the user: > > > I need to install cmake and setuputils. These packages will be > > downloaded. Proceed ? > > I don't think this is important. When you are downloading, installing > experimental packages, I suppose you know what you are doing. Well, as the user base gets less technically savvy this assumption won't hold in my eyes. > > Bonus points if you list the [approximate] sizes of the packages, > > which could be stored inside the spkg you are currently installing. > > This is error prone, but better than to find out that you need to > > download 50MB additional packages of dialup :) > > See above. Dialup? I think this information could be in the second column > ofhttp://www.sagemath.org/packages/experimental/ > together with info os dependencies. Sure, but there are enough people out there who have limited download capacity and we shouldn't assume European/American/Korean/Japanese broadband standards. One example is the current M2 release: If you do not have certain libraries present it downloads them for you. I have had off-list discussions with William about that in that past and that is not acceptable for an optional spkg to do that, so why should it be acceptable for experimental spkgs to download other spkgs? The above behavior is actually the reason I haven't done any work on the m2.spkg for the 1.0 release since we had problems to make it recognize the Sage compiled versions of NTL, lapack and so on. Maybe it is time to try this again with the official 1.0 release, since there certainly is some demand for such an spkg. > Jaap Cheers, Michael --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: http://wiki.sagemath.org/experimental_packages_available_for_SAGE
mabshoff wrote: > > > On Jan 21, 8:20 am, "William Stein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On Jan 20, 2008 6:05 AM, Jaap Spies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> William Stein wrote: On Jan 19, 2008 3:51 PM, Jaap Spies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Michael.Abshoff wrote: >>> [...] >> I would suggest that we add a mechanism for optional/experimental spkgs >> to install other components like cmake. > cmake is only needed to build vtk, but generally spoken it would be nice > to > have a mechanisme to resolve dependencies other than making meta packages. One possibility would be to make it so that sage -i foo works to install the newest version of foo-version.spkg. Then at the top of spkg-install you just put sage -i dependency1 sage -i dependency2 This would work fine as long as there are no circular dependency loops. What do you think of this proposal? >>> Works great as long dependency1 and dependency2 are in a place >>> 'sage - i' can find. This makes the creation of meta packages >>> superfluous! >> The spkg-install file could even temporarily change the SAGE_SERVER >> environment variable, so that it could point to the repository of your choice >> for the dependencies. You could test this out already by including version >> numbers in the package names. > > I also don't like that in such a case some package goes of and > downloads other packages without asking the user. So would I would > like to see is a script that checks for a listed set of dependencies > and then tells the user: > > I need to install cmake and setuputils. These packages will be > downloaded. Proceed ? > I don't think this is important. When you are downloading, installing experimental packages, I suppose you know what you are doing. > Bonus points if you list the [approximate] sizes of the packages, > which could be stored inside the spkg you are currently installing. > This is error prone, but better than to find out that you need to > download 50MB additional packages of dialup :) > See above. Dialup? I think this information could be in the second column of http://www.sagemath.org/packages/experimental/ together with info os dependencies. Jaap --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Online free sage notebook slowness
On Monday 21 January 2008, William Stein wrote: > On Jan 21, 2008 9:15 AM, bill purvis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Managed to figure out my password from Firefox password list. > > Logged in OK, but found it rather sluggish compared to my local > > server. I don't have any serious calculations on there, though. > > > > I did notice that my problem (clicking on 'evaluate' label leaves > > workbook in limbo state) happens there, as well as on my local > > server. This suggests it's some interaction with Firefox > > What happens when you try other web browsers, e.g,. opera? > Don't have any other browsers at present. > I just tried and the evaluate button _does_ seem slightly flakie when > I just tested > in Safari, in that sometimes I have > to click it more than once, and once I had to press shift enter > instead. But the whole > state of the worksheet doesn't get messed up for me. > It doesn't mess it up - just leaves it without a cursor - i.e. no 'current' cell. There's no bar to indicate processing in progress. As soon as I click in a cell it's all back to normal. Hoping to find some time tomorrow to try and track it down. Bill -- +---+ | Bill Purvis, Amateur Mathematician| | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | http://bil.members.beeb.net | +---+ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: rpm's, deb, and ebuilds,
On Jan 21, 10:50 pm, "Soroosh Yazdani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, Hi Soroosh, > there seems to be some exciting progress in making packages for sage. > However, I'm curious if there is a plan for allowing normal users have their > own sage libraries that they can edit. That is, if a normal user runs "sage > -clone" on a sage that is globally installed, a copy of the cloned directory > will be made in his home directory, and he can edit the appropriate files. > And from then on, there is a hg branch that he will have access to. > > Any ideas how best this can be done? Right now, what I'm thinking of is > having a sage directory in the user's directory the first time sage is ran, > and a link to the devel/sage in there. Can that work? Hmm, I think there is a problem when building the extensions since you will need to have write permissions to copy the resulting dynamic library over. That could be potentially avoided by having the Sage python directory in there too, but I am not quite sure how much work needs to be done to make that possible. But I agree that for a multi user system with centrally installed Sage such a feature would be great. > Cheers, > Soroosh Cheers, Michael --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: rpm's, deb, and ebuilds,
On Jan 21, 2008 1:50 PM, Soroosh Yazdani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > > there seems to be some exciting progress in making packages for sage. > However, I'm curious if there is a plan for allowing normal users have their > own sage libraries that they can edit. That is, if a normal user runs "sage > -clone" on a sage that is globally installed, a copy of the cloned directory > will be made in his home directory, and he can edit the appropriate files. > And from then on, there is a hg branch that he will have access to. Packaging sage for distributions and your question about normal users editing copies of the main Sage library are orthogonal issues. The question you raise has already been around for a long time, since very often Sage is installed system-wide on a system (e.g., on meccah.math.harvard.edu, there is no a new system-wide sage install, that only I have write permission to use). I am not aware of any plans to address this problem; generally speaking it is best for people to just install their only copy of Sage in their home directory, which avoids some problematic issues that any solution to the problem you pose would introduce. E.g., suppose you make your own branch and start editing it, then your sysadmin upgrades Sage without you noticing. Of course your branch won't be upgraded, but suddenly things could (and likely should in some cases) stop working. > Any ideas how best this can be done? Right now, what I'm thinking of is > having a sage directory in the user's directory the first time sage is ran, > and a link to the devel/sage in there. Can that work? A link from where to devel/sage? You can't have /usr/local/sage/devel/sage point to one random particular users devel/sage. Anyway, I think you bring up a very valid question. But probably the right answer is to simply continue doing things they way we currently do. rpm/debs/etc. are much more for people who are not doing development, but just want to use sage. Likewise, if people are developing say pari, they would certainly build their own version of pari from source in their home directory, instead of somehow trying to develop on something installed as an rpm. In the not-to-distant future (and probably even now), the majority of people who use sage will not be editing the Sage library code directly... Keep in mind, for example, that the great majority of Sage downloads right now are of the vmware image for windows (there were about 1400 downloads of Sage in the last month, and probably 30% were the vmware image). -- William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] rpm's, deb, and ebuilds,
Hi, there seems to be some exciting progress in making packages for sage. However, I'm curious if there is a plan for allowing normal users have their own sage libraries that they can edit. That is, if a normal user runs "sage -clone" on a sage that is globally installed, a copy of the cloned directory will be made in his home directory, and he can edit the appropriate files. And from then on, there is a hg branch that he will have access to. Any ideas how best this can be done? Right now, what I'm thinking of is having a sage directory in the user's directory the first time sage is ran, and a link to the devel/sage in there. Can that work? Cheers, Soroosh --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: sage 2.10 experimental ebuild for Gentoo
On Jan 21, 1:02 am, Francois <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Jan 21, 12:36 pm, mabshoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Hi Michael, > > I will do something about the license. In the maintime here is > qqbar.py failure: > File "qqbar.py", line 3075: > sage: cp.complex_roots(30, 1) > Expected: > [[1.1892071150027208 .. 1.1892071150027213], > [-1.1892071150027213 .. -1.18920711500272...], [1.1892071150027208 .. > 1.1892071150027213]*I, [-1.1892071150027213 .. -1.1892071150027208]*I] > Got: > [[1.1892071150027208 .. 1.1892071150027213], > [-1.1892071150027213 .. -1.1892071150027210], [1.1892071150027210 .. > 1.1892071150027213]*I, [-1.1892071150027213 .. -1.1892071150027208]*I] > ** > 1 items had failures: >1 of 3 in __main__.example_76 > ***Test Failed*** 1 failures. Hi Francois, This is actually a numerical issue (from numpy or pari, but I am not sure where the precision cutoff for roots is) and easily fixable. This is now #1880 and it should be fixed in the next couple hours depending on what I do first ;) > Cheers, > Francois Cheers, Michael --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: http://wiki.sagemath.org/experimental_packages_available_for_SAGE
On Jan 21, 8:20 am, "William Stein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Jan 20, 2008 6:05 AM, Jaap Spies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > William Stein wrote: > > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:51 PM, Jaap Spies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> Michael.Abshoff wrote: > > [...] > > >>> I would suggest that we add a mechanism for optional/experimental spkgs > > >>> to install other components like cmake. > > > >> cmake is only needed to build vtk, but generally spoken it would be nice > > >> to > > >> have a mechanisme to resolve dependencies other than making meta > > >> packages. > > > > One possibility would be to make it so that > > > >sage -i foo > > > > works to install the newest version of foo-version.spkg. Then at the > > > top of spkg-install > > > you just put > > > >sage -i dependency1 > > >sage -i dependency2 > > > > This would work fine as long as there are no circular dependency loops. > > > > What do you think of this proposal? > > > Works great as long dependency1 and dependency2 are in a place > > 'sage - i' can find. This makes the creation of meta packages > > superfluous! > > The spkg-install file could even temporarily change the SAGE_SERVER > environment variable, so that it could point to the repository of your choice > for the dependencies. You could test this out already by including version > numbers in the package names. I also don't like that in such a case some package goes of and downloads other packages without asking the user. So would I would like to see is a script that checks for a listed set of dependencies and then tells the user: I need to install cmake and setuputils. These packages will be downloaded. Proceed ? Bonus points if you list the [approximate] sizes of the packages, which could be stored inside the spkg you are currently installing. This is error prone, but better than to find out that you need to download 50MB additional packages of dialup :) > -- William Cheers, Michael --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Request for review: Sage 2.10.1.alpha cycle
On Jan 21, 5:44 pm, Jason Grout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > mabshoff wrote: > > > On Jan 20, 7:33 am, Nick Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > and just searched for "patch" to create this list. There is no point > > in creating another milestone for ticket with patches only. We used to > > space out the open ticket over several milestones, but that did lead > > to tickets being "forgotten" on those milestones. One the other hand > > dealing with 400 or so open tickets against a given milestone is far > > from an ideal situation either, but I don't know any better way to > > deal with this. So, any suggestions? > > This is probably already widely known here, but in trac 0.11, they have > workflows, which would allow us to have tickets in states "patch needs > review", "patch, negative review", "patch, positive review", "patch in > progress", etc. Then we could have software support for what now is a > naming convention, filter on the state, etc. That version of trac is in > beta now, so hopefully soon it will be officially released. Yep, trac 0.11 will solve a lot of the issues we currently see. I am curious what their time table will be like, the official site offers no indication when 0.11 will be released. Does anybody have experience how long their usual beta phase lasts? > For now, we could have some custom queries that look for "patch" in the > title of an issue to somewhat narrow down the list, right? Anybody willing to do this? I read sage-trac, i.e. I get email on all status changes in trac, but the volume is higher than sage-devel, which doesn't make this a viable solution for the vast majority of people ;) > Jason Cheers, Michael --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Describing Sage as a Mathematics Computing Environment
Robert wrote: > > Mathematics Computing Environment is more what sage is, IMO. > > I like this too, and the suggestion "comprehensive" (if it doesn't > make it too long). So I'd suggest something like > > Comprehensive Mathematics Computing Environment. I like the concept of Sage being comprehensive, but how about using a more widely-used synonym for the word 'comprehensive' like 'universal'?: Universal Mathematics Computing Environment Ted --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: generator inconsistencies in finite fields
Ok, I was wrong. I'm convinced that sage has the correct behavior, which
I think is:
GF(q).gen() returns an element x of GF(q) such that the smallest
subfield of GF(q) containing x is GF(q).
In this case, the docstring needs to be corrected, because the statement
that "All elements x of self are expressed as log_{self.gen()}(p)
internally" is not true, right? (Extrapolating from this sentence and my
two examples led me to make my previous statements.) Probably it is true
that all elements are expressible as polynomials in x, and perhaps this
is also the internal representation.
On Mon, 2008-01-21 at 00:32 -0800, David Kohel wrote:
> Hi,
>
> It is probably a bias of the choice of (additive) generators for
> finite field
> extensions which results in the primitive field element also being a
> generator for the multiplicative group (confusingly called a
> "primitive
> element of the finite field").
>
> It is not possible to set GF(q).gen() to always be a generator for
> the
> multiplicative group, since it is not always computationally feasible
> to
> determine it. In particular requires a factorization of q-1. The
> finite
> field constructor for non-prime fields would then also have to be
> changed to ONLY use primitive elements (since GF(q).gen() must
> certainly return the generator with respect the the defining
> polynomial).
> This would conflict with the desire to allow user-chosen polynomials
> or polynomials of SAGE's choice which are selected for sparseness
> (hence speed) rather than as generator of the multiplicative group.
> Moreover, any such definition for convenience of the user would
> have to be turned off for q > [some arbitrary bound] and could not
> be reliable. Thus I don't see how it would be possible to make the
> definition that GF(q).gen() is a generator for the multiplicative
> group.
>
> For small finite fields, one could set GF(q).gen() to be such a
> generator. This could either be convenient, or confuse users into
> thinking that this is more generally True.
>
> --David
>
> P.S. On the other hand, I find (additive) order confusing and there
> should
> be some checking of the index for FF.i below (i.e. give an error if i !
> = 0).
>
> sage: FF. = GF(7^100);
> sage: x.order()
> 7
> sage: x
> x
> sage: x.multiplicative_order()
> 323447650962475799134464776910021681085720319890462540093389533139169145963692806000
> sage: FF.0
> x
> sage: FF.1
> x
> sage: FF.2
> x
> sage: FF.100
> x
> sage: FF.101
> x
> >
>
>
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[sage-devel] Re: Online free sage notebook slowness
On Jan 21, 2008 9:15 AM, bill purvis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Managed to figure out my password from Firefox password list. > Logged in OK, but found it rather sluggish compared to my local > server. I don't have any serious calculations on there, though. > > I did notice that my problem (clicking on 'evaluate' label leaves > workbook in limbo state) happens there, as well as on my local > server. This suggests it's some interaction with Firefox What happens when you try other web browsers, e.g,. opera? I just tried and the evaluate button _does_ seem slightly flakie when I just tested in Safari, in that sometimes I have to click it more than once, and once I had to press shift enter instead. But the whole state of the worksheet doesn't get messed up for me. -- William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Online free sage notebook slowness
On Jan 21, 2008 7:24 AM, Martin Albrecht <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I also made it so the notebook doesn't require a funny port, so it should > > work fine if you're behind some sort of firewall that doesn't allow > > connections to ports. Finally, I reduced the number of security > > warnings. > > I am behind such a funny firewall and it doesn't work for me. I don't have an > account on this particular NB server yet and registering times out because it > redirects to http:sage.math.washington.edu:8101/register. This is where the > firewall won't let me connect. That's annoying. I wonder why that happens. In any case, if you register you only get sent to 8101 *after* you register -- your registration should still go through fine. You can then login by manually going to sagenb.org (or going back with the browser back button). William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Online free sage notebook slowness
I just tried the public notebook and it feels very snappy for me, including tab completion! Cheers, Yi http://yiqiang.org On Jan 20, 2008 9:22 PM, William Stein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi, > > This email is about the free public online Sage notebook server: > https://www.sagenb.org > > I think I just fixed some scalability issues that were responsible for > the online free > Sage notebook server feel vastly slower than it should have. Let me know > what > your experience is like with it now.I also made it so the notebook doesn't > require a funny port, so it should work fine if you're behind some > sort of firewall > that doesn't allow connections to ports. Finally, I reduced the > number of security > warnings. > > -- William > > > MORE DETAILS, and other changes unifying the servers: > > (Ignore the rest of this unless you're interested in more details etc.) > > I think it turned out that there was a huge amount of user data that > was being saved every few > seconds, so basically the notebook was spending all of its time > backing itself up. This sort > of paranoid constant backing up was really important when the notebook > actually used to crash. > Now the notebook can easily run for many weeks without crashing (in > fact, I don't know how to > crash it -- it just goes and goes). So I changed the parameters for > autosaving. > > Thus if you've quit using the public notebooks in frustration because > they feel very sluggish, > please try again and let me know if they feel more robust and usable now. > > Also, I would really like to go from having three separate servers to > exactly 1 server. > The only reason we ever had three servers was because the previous > (pre-twisted) > version of the notebook would crash regularly, etc. The current notebook is > far > more robust. It would be better to have one server. However, I have > nothing in place > for migrating existing worksheets, etc. The simplest thing to do > would be to just select > one of > >https://sage.math.washington.edu:8101 >https://sage.math.washington.edu:8102 >https://sage.math.washington.edu:8103 > > to be the canonical one, make all the links point to it, and just > leave the other servers > running for people who want to directly connect to them (and tell > people about them > if they freak about their documents all being missing). > > I just made 8101 the canonical one, since it is now the one most people use. > > [...] > > OK, I've now made it so > >https://www.sagenb.org etc > > *all* point to the same server. > > -- > William Stein > Associate Professor of Mathematics > University of Washington > http://wstein.org > > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: trac naming convention for patches and bundles
On Jan 20, 2008, at 11:56 AM, mabshoff wrote: > > On Jan 20, 8:50 pm, Jaap Spies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Nick Alexander wrote: > > Hi, > >>> On 20-Jan-08, at 9:18 AM, Jaap Spies wrote: Maybe it's a good thing to have a naming convention, say > > I am not to big a fan of this since I keep all my open source patches > in another place and I do prefix them with the project and release > number. I am also a big fan of a descriptive patch name versus trac- > .patch because remembering the issue is much simpler than the trac > number. And I assume that I am actually the person who does remember > most trac tickets by content ;) I totally agree with this. My convention is -brief-identifier.patch. This makes it easy to see all patches relevant to a particular ticket, but at the same time remember what the ticket is about. - Robert --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Online free sage notebook slowness
That shouldn't be caused by anything William has described doing, but is a bug. What operating system, and version of firefox are you using? On Mon, 21 Jan 2008, bill purvis wrote: > > Managed to figure out my password from Firefox password list. > Logged in OK, but found it rather sluggish compared to my local > server. I don't have any serious calculations on there, though. > > I did notice that my problem (clicking on 'evaluate' label leaves > workbook in limbo state) happens there, as well as on my local > server. This suggests it's some interaction with Firefox > > Bill > -- > +---+ > | Bill Purvis, Amateur Mathematician| > | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | > | http://bil.members.beeb.net | > +---+ > > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Online free sage notebook slowness
Managed to figure out my password from Firefox password list. Logged in OK, but found it rather sluggish compared to my local server. I don't have any serious calculations on there, though. I did notice that my problem (clicking on 'evaluate' label leaves workbook in limbo state) happens there, as well as on my local server. This suggests it's some interaction with Firefox Bill -- +---+ | Bill Purvis, Amateur Mathematician| | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | http://bil.members.beeb.net | +---+ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Online free sage notebook slowness
I tried! Unfortunately I've already forgotten my password and there's no 'please remind me or reset my password' facility as yet I guess I could have created another id but I'd rather not. Bill -- +---+ | Bill Purvis, Amateur Mathematician| | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | http://bil.members.beeb.net | +---+ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Request for review: Sage 2.10.1.alpha cycle
mabshoff wrote: > > > On Jan 20, 7:33 am, Nick Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On 19-Jan-08, at 10:31 PM, Nick Alexander wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> On 19-Jan-08, at 7:46 PM, mabshoff wrote: Hello folks, Sage 2.10.1.alpha0 is on the way and merging has gone well. But there is a boat-load of patches (about 55) that need reviews to get merged. So if you have a little time come on over to trac or #sage-devel and help out :) Cheers, Michael List of ticket with patches to review: >>> To make it easier to keep track of what patches have been reviewed, >>> the list is at >>> http://wiki.sagemath.org/bug9 >>> Please update the list with reviews, etc there. >> Actually, is there some way to just see this list on trac, mabshoff? > > No really, I use > > http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/report/1?sort=ticket&asc=1 > > and just searched for "patch" to create this list. There is no point > in creating another milestone for ticket with patches only. We used to > space out the open ticket over several milestones, but that did lead > to tickets being "forgotten" on those milestones. One the other hand > dealing with 400 or so open tickets against a given milestone is far > from an ideal situation either, but I don't know any better way to > deal with this. So, any suggestions? This is probably already widely known here, but in trac 0.11, they have workflows, which would allow us to have tickets in states "patch needs review", "patch, negative review", "patch, positive review", "patch in progress", etc. Then we could have software support for what now is a naming convention, filter on the state, etc. That version of trac is in beta now, so hopefully soon it will be officially released. For now, we could have some custom queries that look for "patch" in the title of an issue to somewhat narrow down the list, right? Jason --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Online free sage notebook slowness
> I also made it so the notebook doesn't require a funny port, so it should > work fine if you're behind some sort of firewall that doesn't allow > connections to ports. Finally, I reduced the number of security > warnings. I am behind such a funny firewall and it doesn't work for me. I don't have an account on this particular NB server yet and registering times out because it redirects to http:sage.math.washington.edu:8101/register. This is where the firewall won't let me connect. Martin -- name: Martin Albrecht _pgp: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x8EF0DC99 _www: http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/~malb _jab: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: SAGE in RPM form
The RPM was build for PCLinuxOS. In theory, it should work for Fedora and RedHat as well. However, I have not tested that because that was not the original intent of my packaging. The only reason this may not work is if the ver few dependencies that this RPM has are not called with the same name in those distributions as they are in PCLinuxOS. If you'd like to test out the RPM, I would ask that at least initially you do it in the target distribution, PCLinuxOS (http:// www.pclinuxos.com) or one of its many remasters (TinyMe, PCLOS Gnome edition, PCLOS Business Edition, etc). All of these distros can be made to run in a virtual machine (see http://www.vmware.com/appliances/directory/898 for a somewhat out of date PCLinuxOS Virtual Appliance). TinyMe, as the name implies, is best in VM because of its light weight. Instructions for testing out the SAGE RPMs in these distributions are be found at http://www.matoilnet.net/~santa/three/RPMS.testing/sage.betatesters.txt On Jan 21, 2:36 am, Francois <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Congratulations! Was my last message to you of any use? > > Cheers, > Francois > > On Jan 20, 5:46 am, gri6507 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > As I've posted here before, I have been working on packaging up SAGE > > into an RPM form. Well, I am happy to say that I finally have > > something that (seems to) works. If anyone here has the ability and > > the spare time to test out the fruits of my labor, please take a look > > athttp://www.mypclinuxos.com/forum/index.php?topic=1509.msg13532#msg13532 > > > I would love to hear back some comments on the functionality of sage > > as delivered by this (set of) RPMs. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Confusing Possible GPL & CC Conflict
On Jan 21, 2008 1:58 AM, William Stein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Jan 20, 2008 10:50 PM, Timothy Clemans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > The message that started this is > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Possibly_unfree_images/2008_January_21#Image:Sagecontourplot.png > > > > If this person's is right that you can't release a screenshot of the > > Sage Notebook under a CC license then I'm worried that the Sage > > documentation can't actually be licensed under CC-by-sa since it > > includes code from docstrings in the GPLed Sage code. > > That's an excellent question. I personally think that all docstrings in Sage > should be viewed as part of the Sage "documentation", and > hence also be licensed under CC, since we state that all the documentation > of Sage is so licensed (this could be a dual license -- it's under CC > and GPL). > Does anybody disagree? We're the copyright holders on 100% of > this stuff, so it's up to us to decide. This sounds good to me - SAGE docs under a dual license. > > -- william > > > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Confusing Possible GPL & CC Conflict
Hello everybody, > I now understand what you meant that these are just generic copyright > questions that should easily be covered under "fair use". I just want to mention, that "fair use" is a term, which is part of US copyright laws, but it does not have an exact equivalent in the laws of other countries. For instance, the German Wikipedia admins do not per se accept "fair use", because it also covers things like screen shots of movies, which are not permitted by German laws. (Although de.wikipedia.org is located in the US, most of the collaborators live here and have to obey the European laws.) So, in order to avoid the same discussion for any non-English language Wikipedias, one should mention, that the relicensing to CC was done in accordance with the copyright holder. Alternatively, for simple screenshots of the notebooks, one could mention, that the generation of the picture does not need a high level of creativity. Regards, Alexander --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: sage 2.10 experimental ebuild for Gentoo
On Jan 21, 8:51 pm, mabshoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED] dortmund.de> wrote: > On Jan 21, 8:48 am, Francois <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Jan 21, 12:36 pm, mabshoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > LICENSE="GPL-2" > > > > should be "GPL-2 or later" or whatever the Gentoo equivalent of that > > > is. > > > I checked other ebuilds and it seems that the policy is to report only > > GPL-2 unless > > there are exceptions attached. I am not sure of the reasoning behind > > this. > > I seams a little odd. Especially since 2.10.1 will contain GPL V3 or > later and LGPL V3 or later components. So somebody ought to get some > legal gentoo people to clarify this. > You mean as in containing both GPL-2 and GPL-3 licensed code? I wonder if I should put all the licenses involved (I know you can put several licenses in that field) or some special token. That's quite possibly another reason why Gentoo likes to have separate ebuild for each components - no license confusion. I will see what I can find. I cannot promise a speedy answer. Cheers, Francois --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: generator inconsistencies in finite fields
Hi, It is probably a bias of the choice of (additive) generators for finite field extensions which results in the primitive field element also being a generator for the multiplicative group (confusingly called a "primitive element of the finite field"). It is not possible to set GF(q).gen() to always be a generator for the multiplicative group, since it is not always computationally feasible to determine it. In particular requires a factorization of q-1. The finite field constructor for non-prime fields would then also have to be changed to ONLY use primitive elements (since GF(q).gen() must certainly return the generator with respect the the defining polynomial). This would conflict with the desire to allow user-chosen polynomials or polynomials of SAGE's choice which are selected for sparseness (hence speed) rather than as generator of the multiplicative group. Moreover, any such definition for convenience of the user would have to be turned off for q > [some arbitrary bound] and could not be reliable. Thus I don't see how it would be possible to make the definition that GF(q).gen() is a generator for the multiplicative group. For small finite fields, one could set GF(q).gen() to be such a generator. This could either be convenient, or confuse users into thinking that this is more generally True. --David P.S. On the other hand, I find (additive) order confusing and there should be some checking of the index for FF.i below (i.e. give an error if i ! = 0). sage: FF. = GF(7^100); sage: x.order() 7 sage: x x sage: x.multiplicative_order() 323447650962475799134464776910021681085720319890462540093389533139169145963692806000 sage: FF.0 x sage: FF.1 x sage: FF.2 x sage: FF.100 x sage: FF.101 x --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Confusing Possible GPL & CC Conflict
On Jan 20, 2008 11:38 PM, Justin C. Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Jan 20, 2008, at 23:22 , William Stein wrote:
>
> >
> > On Jan 20, 2008 11:18 PM, Justin C. Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jan 20, 2008, at 23:00 , William Stein wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On Jan 20, 2008 10:58 PM, William Stein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Jan 20, 2008 10:50 PM, Timothy Clemans
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > The message that started this is
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Possibly_unfree_images/
> > 2008_January_21#Image:Sagecontourplot.png
> >
> > If this person's is right that you can't release a screenshot
> > of the
> > Sage Notebook under a CC license then I'm worried that the Sage
> > documentation can't actually be licensed under CC-by-sa since it
> > includes code from docstrings in the GPLed Sage code.
> >>>
> >>> You can assure the people in that wikipedia conversation that it is
> >>> definitely
> >>> *not* our intention to disallow CC licensing screenshots of sage
> >>> that show
> >>> the documentation, and that I'm sure we'll be happy to work with
> >>> them
> >>> to clarify the license so that they'll be comfortable with those
> >>> screenshots
> >>> being on Wikipedia.
> >>
> >> Unless I'm reading the wiki comments in the wrong way, they are not
> >> concerned that "we" are disallowing the release of screenshots as CC-
> >> licensed. The question is *can* we release screenshots as CC-
> >> licensed, when the content is GPL-licensed.
> >
> > Good point. However, we own the copyright to 100% of the relevant
> > GPL-licensed code, so we still get to decide the question of
> > whether or
> > not we allow the screenshots. I think they wikipedia people are just
> > being careful and respectful of our copyright, which I greatly
> > appreciate.
>
> I don't get the same impression from the discussion there. I think
> they (actually, "belk") are asking a somewhat more general question,
> although it's not completely clear what their point is. They are
> discussing "(elements of) GPL'd software". I can't tell whether they
> mean
>
>- a screenshot of something that is produced by software that is
> licensed under GPL.
>- a screenshot of a batch of software (code) that is licensed
> under GPL; or
>
> Consider:
>
> This, regarding a shot of a display of a "3D" plot of a function:
>
>"Claimed {{GFDL-self}}, but this is a screenshot of copyrighted
> software. Are there enough copyrighted interface elements here to
> make the screenshot non-free? —Bkell (talk) 05:48, 21 January 2008
> (UTC)"
>
> and this, regarding the Sage shot, which includes Sage code (which I
> will guess has *no* copyright attached to it since it's just a bit of
> scripting to show the result [the plot itself]):
>
>"...What I am wondering here is whether this same restriction
> applies to screenshots of GPL software. —Bkell (talk) 06:47, 21
> January 2008 (UTC)"
>
> In any case, I think this could be an indicator of GPL licensing
> beginning to capsize under its own weight (which will probably have a
> lot of attendant collateral damage when it happens). I would be
> cynical, but they're making it way too difficult...
It probably has nothing to do with the GPL. It's just questions about
copyright in general. I hadn't realized that many of their questions
did not actually involve doing
sage: foo?
or
sage: foo??
I now understand what you meant that these are just generic copyright
questions that should easily be covered under "fair use".
Thanks for the clarification (and for protecting me from the trolls
and flame bait!).
-- William
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[sage-devel] Re: Online free sage notebook slowness
William wrote: > If anybody out there is a java expert, this might be a good problem to look > at, > where this is "loading images many many times using sage's 3d plotting can > lead to problems". When someone has this hanging problem occur, please open the Java console (its under Tools in FireFox) and send the information it contains to the list so we can study it. Thanks, Ted --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
