[sage-devel] Re: extending of notebook interface

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

OK.
Source code seems reasonably readable.
I'll start playing with the code, and see where I'll end up.

On 29 svi, 03:10, "Timothy Clemans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for showing your interest in working on the Notebook. I'm one
> of the Notebook developers.
>
> I did some work on some an administrator portal over a week ago
> however I forgot about it, and it was deleted today when I was
> cleaning up my home directory. I had implemented an administration
> page with a frontend to banning individual users from logging in.
>
> I don't plan on writing new code until after the work I've already
> done on some other Notebook stuff has been merged into Sage, 
> seehttp://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/browse_thread/thread/624262
> You could get started on Notebook development by reviewing one of
> those. E-mail Michael Abshoff at [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a
> TRAC account so you can add and contribute to tickets.
>
> We have a tutorial on doing general development 
> athttp://sagemath.org/doc/html/prog/index.html. The Notebook source code
> is in sage/server/notebook, 
> seehttp://www.sagemath.org/hg/sage-main/file/6a6766d05f3b/sage/server/no
>
> I recommend working on implementing your administration ideas as small
> projects. For example the user settings page in the Notebook now was
> originally just a change password page and then a more general page
> was created out of it, seehttp://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/3213. 
> Then on top of that
> there is a patch up that implements better styling for that page and
> also a change auto-save interval control.
>
> Timothy
>
> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 5:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > I would like to incorporate Sage in a web-application which, among
> > other things, enables remote editing and executing of programs in
> > various programming languages and mathematical/engineering tools,
> > written by the group of researchers from our university.
> > Specifically, we would like to extend the capabilities of notebook so
> > that we can add/delete users and their data programatically while the
> > Sage web server is running. Perhaps it would be also interesting to
> > include user management in the Setting part of the notebook web
> > interface?
> > I have some experience in Python, but none in Twisted framework. Could
> > you give me some hints where to look in Sage source? Do you already
> > have some plans in this direction?
>
> > Thanks for a great application.
>
> > Ivica Nakic
> > Assistant Professor of Mathematics
> > University of Zagreb
> > Croatia
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[sage-devel] Re: extending of notebook interface

[millin]

Emil Morales


I would like to help with the coding, specially if it is with the
notebook interface. Ive used sage for cryptography research and I
would like to integrate the notebook interface in a facebook
application. Contact me for more details.

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[sage-devel] Re: extending of notebook interface

[Timothy Clemans]

Hi,

Thanks for showing your interest in working on the Notebook. I'm one
of the Notebook developers.

I did some work on some an administrator portal over a week ago
however I forgot about it, and it was deleted today when I was
cleaning up my home directory. I had implemented an administration
page with a frontend to banning individual users from logging in.

I don't plan on writing new code until after the work I've already
done on some other Notebook stuff has been merged into Sage, see
http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/browse_thread/thread/624262e39644fb57.
You could get started on Notebook development by reviewing one of
those. E-mail Michael Abshoff at [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a
TRAC account so you can add and contribute to tickets.

We have a tutorial on doing general development at
http://sagemath.org/doc/html/prog/index.html. The Notebook source code
is in sage/server/notebook, see
http://www.sagemath.org/hg/sage-main/file/6a6766d05f3b/sage/server/notebook/.

I recommend working on implementing your administration ideas as small
projects. For example the user settings page in the Notebook now was
originally just a change password page and then a more general page
was created out of it, see
http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/3213. Then on top of that
there is a patch up that implements better styling for that page and
also a change auto-save interval control.

Timothy

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 5:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I would like to incorporate Sage in a web-application which, among
> other things, enables remote editing and executing of programs in
> various programming languages and mathematical/engineering tools,
> written by the group of researchers from our university.
> Specifically, we would like to extend the capabilities of notebook so
> that we can add/delete users and their data programatically while the
> Sage web server is running. Perhaps it would be also interesting to
> include user management in the Setting part of the notebook web
> interface?
> I have some experience in Python, but none in Twisted framework. Could
> you give me some hints where to look in Sage source? Do you already
> have some plans in this direction?
>
> Thanks for a great application.
>
> Ivica Nakic
> Assistant Professor of Mathematics
> University of Zagreb
> Croatia
>
> >
>

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[sage-devel] extending of notebook interface

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Hi,
I would like to incorporate Sage in a web-application which, among
other things, enables remote editing and executing of programs in
various programming languages and mathematical/engineering tools,
written by the group of researchers from our university.
Specifically, we would like to extend the capabilities of notebook so
that we can add/delete users and their data programatically while the
Sage web server is running. Perhaps it would be also interesting to
include user management in the Setting part of the notebook web
interface?
I have some experience in Python, but none in Twisted framework. Could
you give me some hints where to look in Sage source? Do you already
have some plans in this direction?

Thanks for a great application.

Ivica Nakic
Assistant Professor of Mathematics
University of Zagreb
Croatia

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[sage-devel] Re: problem installing fricas

[mabshoff]

On May 28, 11:01 pm, "Bill Page" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi Bill,



> > It seems to expect gcl to be installed, so it is likely that once you
> > install a system wide gcl it would get beyond that point. In the past
> > there was trouble building FriCAS/Axiom/OpenAxiom with the clisp
> > Sage provides since we do not build libsigsev [Maxima doesn't require
> > it] and we do wrap the binary clisp into a thin shell wrapper because
> > otherwise on relocation clisp does not find its default memory image.
> > Maxima is build with some switch telling it to use clisp as clisp.bin
> > for example.
>
> Apparently this is a result of changes made by Burcin Eroal.
>
> Fricas without X support can be built with the version of clisp
> included with Sage. X is only required to run Axiom graphics and
> Hyperdoc - neither of which are normally accessible from within Sage.

ok, I didn't know that, so thanks for clearing that up.

> http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/browse_thread/thread/90bd5c...
>
> > We will soon [a months or two] switch to using ecl [Maxima in
> > interpreted mode works already] and FriCAS's test suite on
> > the latest ecl is actually about 30% faster than clisp. And there
> > are already speed ups beyond that.
>
> Has this result for FriCAS been previously reported somewhere?

Yes, on the ecls mailing list on May 10th, 2008:

[Ecls-list] FriCAS timings

I have compared speed of running FriCAS testsuite.  All measurements
are on 1.8 GHz Athlon 64 (Athlon 3000) running Gentoo.  I compared:

- ecl CVS 2008-05-09 15:30, build with --enable-smallcons and
  setting safety to 0 during FriCAS build
- ecl CVS 2008-05-07 11:23, build with default settings and
  setting safety to 1 during FriCAS build
- Gentoo sbcl 1.0.9
- Gentoo clisp 2.43

Results (measured by 'time'):

ecl 05-09 ecl 05-07   sbclclisp

real36m16.106s162m43.116s10m1.985s   47m51.595s
user35m49.750s162m14.250s9m38.560s   47m10.280s
sys  0m25.880s  0m28.280s0m23.240s   0m41.010s


I did not measure gcl and Open MCL times, but past measurements
indicate that both are faster than ecl and slower than sbcl.

Nice things is that now ecl based FriCAs is faster than clisp
based one.

Remark: I had some noise measuring build time, so I do not report
it.  But it seems that ecl 05-09 gives about 20% saving in build
time compared to ecl 05-07.

-- Waldek Hebisch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference
Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save
$100. Use priority code J8TL2D2.
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[end quote]


Notice today's email by Juan, so there are good things to come and he
has been responsive to eliminate bottle necks in FriCAS or Maxima code
that so far has escaped to be noticed by the other lisp code people
have used ecls with:

[Ecls-list] Status of ECL

Still pending to get CVS imported in Sourceforge, there is progress in
my local tree. I have optimized TYPEP and COERCE, at least in the
compiled versions, though the interpreted ones can also benefit if one
wishes so -- the mechanism is based on compiler macros --. In
addition, I discovered bottlenecks in GENSYM, GENTEMP, MAKE-ARRAY and
MAKE-VECTOR, which have been corrected.

Before, runing Paul's testsuite

real time : 572.967 secs
run time  : 396.084 secs
gc count  : 647 times
consed: 5325200048 bytes

Right now

real time : 476.979 secs
run time  : 268.773 secs
gc count  : 590 times
consed: 3833384924 bytes

None of the optimizations are usafe: it is just using information
about the known types to produce the simplest type checks and type
coercions possibles. And everything is rather standard Common Lisp, so
I expect it to be robust.

Juanjo
[end quote]

> What is the build time for the complete system?

Somthing about that come up today when Waldek inquired about the start
up time of ecl. It is slower than the other lisps, but that discussion
seems to be ongoing.

> Is anyone working on making preparing a Sage spkg for FriCAS based on ecl?

Not to my knowledge, but something in that direction was discussed
with Martin Rubey in sage-devel a couple weeks back.

Ecl in Sage is currently being held up by me working on the Solaris,
OSX 64 bit and Cygwin ports, but it should be fairly straight forward.
We only need to package boehmgc as dependency, so that is something
that will happen soon. Since M2 also depends on boehm gc it will
happen before their M2 meeting in Snowbird Utah at the end of June
since some Sage people will be there and then the current M2 will
exist as a working optional spkg again. It is on my to do list in the
medium priority, but the work is b

[sage-devel] Re: problem installing fricas

[Burcin Erocal]

On Wed, 28 May 2008 13:47:08 -0700 (PDT)
mabshoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> On May 28, 10:41 pm, "Bill Page" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Hi Bill,
> 
> > William is right, GCL was not required to install fricas. The original
> > version I uploaded 10 months ago built fricas from pre-generated lisp
> > source using clisp. The install took about 10 minutes to complete.
> >
> > After downloading and untaring the file 'fricas-1.0.2.spkg' from:
> >
> > http://www.sagemath.org/packages/optional
> >
> > the file SPKG.txt shows that the version apparently came from Burcin
> > Erocal on April 1, 2008:
> 
> IIRC correctly Burcin packages the 1.0.2 release upon request of Ralf
> Hemmecke, but my mind might mix up things here. So if Ralf of Brucin
> could enlighten us that would be good.

For the record, I packaged this after spending some time installing
fricas because I wanted to use Martin Rubey's GUESS package to
demonstrate the axiom interface in Sage in a presentation. It wasn't
Ralf's request.

It definitely didn't take anywhere near 2 hours to compile on my
workstation (3.4GHz 32-bit Pentium D). I thought since it built so
easily and without any errors, I would update the package which seemed
to be really old. I tested on my laptop (which apparently also has
gcl), then sent it to Michael.

I'm sorry I caused such confusion.


Burcin

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[sage-devel] New 64 bit OSX Sage binary posted

[mabshoff]

Hello folks,

I have updated my current OSX 64 bit binary and it can be downloaded
from

http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/mabshoff/release-cycles-3.0.2/sage-sage-3.0.2.a1-64bit-osx-2008-05-27-i386-Darwin.dmg

The reason I did another release is that I got the the notebook to
work by fixing _ctypes in 64 bit mode. It starts up, but I never did
any work, so it might still blow up in your face.

It has shrunk considerably from the last try and now weighs in at
318MB. The last one was 0.5GB and the reduction is size is due to me
merging fixes upstream and consequently deleting various of my spkg
porting trees from $SAGE_ROOT/devel/spkg. After fixing a bunch of
other issues I can now concentrate on my porting work again, so expect
an update before the end of the week. Hopefully then I will have
merged all my fixes upstream so that the next release will be based on
3.0.3.

That being said you should be aware that as is the binary is still
somewhat broken, i.e. about 20+ doctests still fail for various
reasons. So while you can play around with this release it certainly
isn't ready for prime time, but if you care about 64 bit OSX support
it would be great if you could give it a spin and report problems.
There is no point in opening trac tickets yet since I have a list of
things to fix at

http://wiki.sagemath.org/osx64

so please report problems here and I can stick the issues on my for
now internal ToDo list. Should things go as planned [and we know they
never do] Sage 3.0.3 might be pretty close to an "out of the box
compile experience".

Thoughts?

Cheers,

Michael

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[sage-devel] Re: problem installing fricas

[Bill Page]

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 3:23 PM, mabshoff wrote:
>
> On May 28, 9:12 pm, John Cremona wrote:
>
>> I tried to install fricas (prompted by an earlier thread -- I wonder
>> which?) but this happened (with 3.0.2 on linux):
>>
>>  axiom_build_bindir =
>> /home/jec/sage-3.0.1/spkg/build/fricas-1.0.2/build-dir/build/x86_64-suse-linux/bin
>> checking for gcl... no
>> configure: error: GCL and GCL sources missing, see README.wh
>
> It seems to expect gcl to be installed, so it is likely that once you
> install a system wide gcl it would get beyond that point. In the past
> there was trouble building FriCAS/Axiom/OpenAxiom with the clisp
> Sage provides since we do not build libsigsev [Maxima doesn't require
> it] and we do wrap the binary clisp into a thin shell wrapper because
> otherwise on relocation clisp does not find its default memory image.
> Maxima is build with some switch telling it to use clisp as clisp.bin
> for example.

Apparently this is a result of changes made by Burcin Eroal.

Fricas without X support can be built with the version of clisp
included with Sage. X is only required to run Axiom graphics and
Hyperdoc - neither of which are normally accessible from within Sage.

http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/browse_thread/thread/90bd5cd51238c848/a891aee4688e88f3?lnk=gst&q=fricas+clisp#a891aee4688e88f3

> We will soon [a months or two] switch to using ecl [Maxima in
> interpreted mode works already] and FriCAS's test suite on
> the latest ecl is actually about 30% faster than clisp. And there
> are already speed ups beyond that.
>


Has this result for FriCAS been previously reported somewhere? What is
the build time for the complete system? Is anyone working on making
preparing a Sage spkg for FriCAS based on ecl?

> ...

Regards,
Bill Page.

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[sage-devel] Sage 3.0.3.alpha0 released!

[mabshoff]

Hello folks,

this is Sage 3.0.3.alpha0. It looks like we we are continuing our
somewhat slow development pace while waiting for the coercion
rewrite to finish. Trac still has a staggering 75+ patches waiting
for review, so if you can spare a little time it would be nice if
you could review a patch or two.

Other than the usual fixes we have fixed dsage.setup() to work
again, did merge the latest M4RI which contains all the great
work done by Martin Albrech and Bill Hart, merged more of Tim
Abbott's Debianization work, some combinat improvments by Mike
Hansen and Mike Zabrocki, my work on OSX 64 bit build support
which I will plug in a separate email and much more. Apologies
to anybody not mentioned by name here, but below you can see
all the gory details.

As usual there are the sources and a sage.math only binary:

http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/mabshoff/release-cycles-3.0.3/sage-3.0.3.alpha0.tar

http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/mabshoff/release-cycles-3.0.3/sage-3.0.3.alpha0-sage.math-only-x86_64-Linux.tar.gz

I am not sure how the rest of the release cycle will play out
timewise because it all depends to a large extend on when the
coercion code is ready to be merged. Either way I want to do a
release by June 5th since I will be traveling to UW  on June
7th. So we might do 3.0.4 before the 3.1 release which will
be largely limited to the coercion merge.

Thoughts?

Cheers,

Michael

Merged in alpha0:

#1284: Robert Miller: G.subgroup([...]) for G an abelian group has
   at least one lame property
#1605: Burcin Erocal: conversion of sage vectors to magma vectors
   not implemented
#2040: John Palmieri: 2d graphics - problems with axes_labels options
#3193: Michael Abshoff: fix 64 bit OSX build support for twisted
#3196: Michael Abshoff: fix 64 bit OSX build support for R
#3204: Martin Albrecht: update M4RI to newest upstream release
   libm4ri-20080521.p0.spkg
#3208: John Palmieri: a bunch of small changes to the tutorial
#3217: Craig Citro: Serious bug in modular symbols for GammaH
#3244: Mike Hansen: add support for inner plethysms of symmetric
   functions
#3247: Mike Zabrocki: add skew and generalized Hall-Littlewood
   creation operators to symmetric functions
#3255: Mike Hansen: Add support for generic backtracking algorithms
#3259: Tim Abbott, Michael Abshoff: shared library versioning for
flint
#3278: Mike Hansen: update the crystal iterator to use the new
   backtracking code
#3286: Jason Bandlow: Minor fixes (mostly doc) to partition.py
#3292: Burcin Erocal: conversion of FractionFieldElements to magma
#3293: Burcin Erocal: MPolynomialRing_generic.random_element returns
   tuple when degree=0
#3295: Marshall Hampton: misspelled "parrallel" in graphs
#3300: Tim Abbott: ntl soname for Debian package
#3303: Tim Abbott: Add shared library to tachyon Debian package
#3305: Tim Abbott: man page for lcalc Debian package
#3307: Tim Abbott: Move genus2reduction to /usr/lib for Debian package
#3308: Tim Abbott: Update sage-sbuildhack to work with new sbuild
   in Debian
#3311: Michael Abshoff, Gary Furnish: dsage.setup() is broken in
   Sage 3.0.2
#3318: Michael Abshoff: improve 64 bit osx python 2.5.2 build
#3322: Gary Furnish: new python spkg with -j enabled
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[sage-devel] Re: Expose sage_search on sagemath.org

[Daniel Black]

William Stein wrote:

> There is no function "sage_search", which is surely causing a lot
> of confusion here.

Aha.  Maybe I took the top of page 9 of the posted PDF of _Sage
Programming Guide_ too literally:

"Using sage_search from the Sage prompt or grep one can easily find
aforementioned keywords . . . ."

>I think it would be really cool if possible to make it so one
> can search the sage source code from sagemath.org.   One could
> have full text search of:
>
> * just the sage library
> * sage library and all math components of sage (pari, maxima, etc)
> * all components of sage (including python, etc.)
>
> I think this would be a great project for somebody to implement.
> Volunteers?

I'm not sure what's involved, but I'm definitely up for helping out.
Is it more convoluted than to tie a Python script to an (X)HTML form
field, that feeds the search parameters to search_src?

Daniel

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[sage-devel] Re: problem installing fricas

[mabshoff]

On May 28, 10:41 pm, "Bill Page" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi Bill,

> William is right, GCL was not required to install fricas. The original
> version I uploaded 10 months ago built fricas from pre-generated lisp
> source using clisp. The install took about 10 minutes to complete.
>
> After downloading and untaring the file 'fricas-1.0.2.spkg' from:
>
> http://www.sagemath.org/packages/optional
>
> the file SPKG.txt shows that the version apparently came from Burcin
> Erocal on April 1, 2008:

IIRC correctly Burcin packages the 1.0.2 release upon request of Ralf
Hemmecke, but my mind might mix up things here. So if Ralf of Brucin
could enlighten us that would be good.

> == Changelog ==
>
> === fricas-1.0.2 (Burcin Erocal) ===
>  * update to FriCAS-1.0.2 release
>
> === fricas-0.3.1 (Bill Page) ===
>  * FriCAS-0.3.1 release
>
> Certainly it is the not the spkg that I created. This new version
> seems to require GCL and builds from source. This takes much! longer
> (~2 hours?).
>
> The version I uploaded last is here:
>
> http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/page/packages
>
> But I must admit that I have not tried it with more recent releases of Sage.

It will likely be affected by the clisp -> clisp.bin rename - at least
Maxima did. If you coujld provide an updated 1.0.2 release that uses
prebild lisp files and does work with Sage 3.0.x I can upload it right
away.

> Regards,
> Bill Page.

Cheers,

Michael
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[sage-devel] Re: problem installing fricas

[Bill Page]

William is right, GCL was not required to install fricas. The original
version I uploaded 10 months ago built fricas from pre-generated lisp
source using clisp. The install took about 10 minutes to complete.

After downloading and untaring the file 'fricas-1.0.2.spkg' from:

http://www.sagemath.org/packages/optional

the file SPKG.txt shows that the version apparently came from Burcin
Erocal on April 1, 2008:

...

== Changelog ==

=== fricas-1.0.2 (Burcin Erocal) ===
 * update to FriCAS-1.0.2 release

=== fricas-0.3.1 (Bill Page) ===
 * FriCAS-0.3.1 release

Certainly it is the not the spkg that I created. This new version
seems to require GCL and builds from source. This takes much! longer
(~2 hours?).

The version I uploaded last is here:

http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/page/packages

But I must admit that I have not tried it with more recent releases of Sage.

Regards,
Bill Page.

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 3:22 PM, William Stein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 12:12 PM, John Cremona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> I tried to install fricas (prompted by an earlier thread -- I wonder
>> which?) but this happened (with 3.0.2 on linux):
>>
>>  axiom_build_bindir =
>> /home/jec/sage-3.0.1/spkg/build/fricas-1.0.2/build-dir/build/x86_64-suse-linux/bin
>> checking for gcl... no
>> configure: error: GCL and GCL sources missing, see README.wh
>> ***
>> Failed to configure Axiom.
>> ***
>
> Wow, that stinks.   The situation last time I tested fricas
> was that it didn't require gcl to build (only clisp, which we
> shipped), and I'm very unpleasantly surprised this is now broken.
>
> Maybe Bill Page or Waldek Hebisch could comment...
> In any case, we should open a ticket, I think.
>
>
>>
>> real0m0.546s
>> user0m0.280s
>> sys 0m0.268s
>> sage: An error occurred while installing fricas-1.0.2
>> Please email sage-devel http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
>> explaining the problem and send the relevant part of
>> of /home/jec/sage-3.0.1/install.log.  Describe your computer,
>> operating system, etc.
>> If you want to try to fix the problem, yourself *don't* just cd to
>> /home/jec/sage-3.0.1/spkg/build/fricas-1.0.2 and type 'make'.
>> Instead type "/home/jec/sage-3.0.1/sage -sh"
>> in order to set all environment variables correctly, then cd to
>> /home/jec/sage-3.0.1/spkg/build/fricas-1.0.2
>> (When you are done debugging, you can type "exit" to leave the
>> subshell.)
>>
>>
>> Is there somewhere where package dependencies are listed?  Are these
>> checked (I guess not)?
>>
>> John

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[sage-devel] Need reviewer(s) for Notebook tickets

[Timothy Clemans]

Hi,

I have two new usability features for the Sage Notebook implemented
that need review. The most important one is a page for controlling the
publication of a worksheet with controls such as stop publishing,
re-publish, and auto publish, see
http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/3240. The other is a
section, on the "Account Settings" page already in Sage, for changing
the auto-save interval for worksheets along with visual improvements
to that page, see http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/3228.

If you have been wanting these features, then please review one of
them so they can get into to Sage soon and be used by the hundreds of
Notebook users.

Thanks,
Timothy

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[sage-devel] Re: bug with %html?

[John H Palmieri]

On May 28, 12:17 pm, "William Stein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 12:05 PM, John H Palmieri
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Is this a bug?  Trailing question marks are parsed in %html blocks.
> > In the notebook:
>
> > sage: %html
> > ...   How are you?
>
> > No object 'you' currently defined.
>
> That's definitely a bug.  Please report it to trac.  Thanks!



>
> (What's happening behind the scenes is introspection, of course...)
>
>  -- William
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[sage-devel] Re: Expose sage_search on sagemath.org

[William Stein]

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Daniel Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi, Harald,
>
> Harald Schilly wrote:
>
>> I don't really get the point about sage_search,
>
> I read that section and thought of searching for all #todo instances;
> if there's effort made to document intent, seems it's worthwhile to
> review it.  Then came the idea to tie a web form to the sagemath.org-
> hosted Sage installation.  Maybe interesting, but probably not as
> useful as using a consolidated source (Trac).
>

There is no function "sage_search", which is surely causing a lot
of confusion here.

There is a function search_src that searches the sage *source code*
(not the documentation) using grep. That's what Daniel is asking
about.  I think it would be really cool if possible to make it so one
can search the sage source code from sagemath.org.   One could
have full text search of:

* just the sage library
* sage library and all math components of sage (pari, maxima, etc)
* all components of sage (including python, etc.)

I think this would be a great project for somebody to implement.
Volunteers?


>> but in my opinion, the
>> best place to see where to start working is the trac site: there is a
>> wish list http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/query?milestone=sage-wishlist
>> and open tickets.
>
> I had looked around the site, but apparently hadn't looked at Trac
> nearly enough.  Thanks for the pointer.
>
> Daniel
> >
>



-- 
William Stein
Associate Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org

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[sage-devel] Re: problem installing fricas

[John Cremona]

Thanks.  It's not my machine so installing gcl is not an easy option.

John

2008/5/28 mabshoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> On May 28, 9:12 pm, "John Cremona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
>> I tried to install fricas (prompted by an earlier thread -- I wonder
>> which?) but this happened (with 3.0.2 on linux):
>>
>>  axiom_build_bindir =
>> /home/jec/sage-3.0.1/spkg/build/fricas-1.0.2/build-dir/build/x86_64-suse-linux/bin
>> checking for gcl... no
>> configure: error: GCL and GCL sources missing, see README.wh
>
> It seems to expect gcl to be installed, so it is likely that once you
> install a system wide gcl it would get beyond that point. In the past
> there was trouble building FriCAS/Axiom/OpenAxiom with the clips Sage
> provides since we do not build libsigsev [Maxima doesn't require it]
> and we do wrap the binary clisp into a thin shell wrapper because
> otherwise on relocation clisp does not find its default memory image.
> Maxima is build with some switch telling it to use clisp as clisp.bin
> for example. We will soon [a months or two] switch to using ecl
> [Maxima in interpreted mode works already] and FriCAS's test suite on
> the latest ecl is actually about 30% faster than clisp. And there  are
> already speed ups beyond that.
>
>> ***
>> Failed to configure Axiom.
>> ***
>
> 
>
>> Is there somewhere where package dependencies are listed?  Are these
>> checked (I guess not)?
>
> For packages I build the dependencies are listed in the subpages
> linked from
>
> http://wiki.sagemath.org/Sage_Spkg_Tracking
>
> Not all packages are up there [or even current], but I have been
> updating the pages as I go along and usually write SPKG.txt for each
> indivisual spkg I work on. Burcin Eroal did also create a such an
> SPKG.txt for Fricas at
>
> http://wiki.sagemath.org/spkg/fricas
>
> but he left the dependencies blank. So updating that will certainly
> help. As is we do not have an optional or experimental gcl.spkg.
>
>> John
>
> Cheers,
>
> Michael
> >
>

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[sage-devel] Re: Expose sage_search on sagemath.org

[Daniel Black]

Hi, Harald,

Harald Schilly wrote:

> I don't really get the point about sage_search,

I read that section and thought of searching for all #todo instances;
if there's effort made to document intent, seems it's worthwhile to
review it.  Then came the idea to tie a web form to the sagemath.org-
hosted Sage installation.  Maybe interesting, but probably not as
useful as using a consolidated source (Trac).

> but in my opinion, the
> best place to see where to start working is the trac site: there is a
> wish list http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/query?milestone=sage-wishlist
> and open tickets.

I had looked around the site, but apparently hadn't looked at Trac
nearly enough.  Thanks for the pointer.

Daniel
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[sage-devel] Re: problem installing fricas

[mabshoff]

On May 28, 9:12 pm, "John Cremona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi John,

> I tried to install fricas (prompted by an earlier thread -- I wonder
> which?) but this happened (with 3.0.2 on linux):
>
>  axiom_build_bindir =
> /home/jec/sage-3.0.1/spkg/build/fricas-1.0.2/build-dir/build/x86_64-suse-linux/bin
> checking for gcl... no
> configure: error: GCL and GCL sources missing, see README.wh

It seems to expect gcl to be installed, so it is likely that once you
install a system wide gcl it would get beyond that point. In the past
there was trouble building FriCAS/Axiom/OpenAxiom with the clips Sage
provides since we do not build libsigsev [Maxima doesn't require it]
and we do wrap the binary clisp into a thin shell wrapper because
otherwise on relocation clisp does not find its default memory image.
Maxima is build with some switch telling it to use clisp as clisp.bin
for example. We will soon [a months or two] switch to using ecl
[Maxima in interpreted mode works already] and FriCAS's test suite on
the latest ecl is actually about 30% faster than clisp. And there  are
already speed ups beyond that.

> ***
> Failed to configure Axiom.
> ***



> Is there somewhere where package dependencies are listed?  Are these
> checked (I guess not)?

For packages I build the dependencies are listed in the subpages
linked from

http://wiki.sagemath.org/Sage_Spkg_Tracking

Not all packages are up there [or even current], but I have been
updating the pages as I go along and usually write SPKG.txt for each
indivisual spkg I work on. Burcin Eroal did also create a such an
SPKG.txt for Fricas at

http://wiki.sagemath.org/spkg/fricas

but he left the dependencies blank. So updating that will certainly
help. As is we do not have an optional or experimental gcl.spkg.

> John

Cheers,

Michael
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[sage-devel] Re: problem installing fricas

[William Stein]

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 12:12 PM, John Cremona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I tried to install fricas (prompted by an earlier thread -- I wonder
> which?) but this happened (with 3.0.2 on linux):
>
>  axiom_build_bindir =
> /home/jec/sage-3.0.1/spkg/build/fricas-1.0.2/build-dir/build/x86_64-suse-linux/bin
> checking for gcl... no
> configure: error: GCL and GCL sources missing, see README.wh
> ***
> Failed to configure Axiom.
> ***

Wow, that stinks.   The situation last time I tested fricas
was that it didn't require gcl to build (only clisp, which we
shipped), and I'm very unpleasantly surprised this is now broken.

Maybe Bill Page or Waldek Hebisch could comment...
In any case, we should open a ticket, I think.


>
> real0m0.546s
> user0m0.280s
> sys 0m0.268s
> sage: An error occurred while installing fricas-1.0.2
> Please email sage-devel http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
> explaining the problem and send the relevant part of
> of /home/jec/sage-3.0.1/install.log.  Describe your computer,
> operating system, etc.
> If you want to try to fix the problem, yourself *don't* just cd to
> /home/jec/sage-3.0.1/spkg/build/fricas-1.0.2 and type 'make'.
> Instead type "/home/jec/sage-3.0.1/sage -sh"
> in order to set all environment variables correctly, then cd to
> /home/jec/sage-3.0.1/spkg/build/fricas-1.0.2
> (When you are done debugging, you can type "exit" to leave the
> subshell.)
>
>
> Is there somewhere where package dependencies are listed?  Are these
> checked (I guess not)?
>
> John
>
> >
>



-- 
William Stein
Associate Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org

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[sage-devel] Re: bug with %html?

[William Stein]

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 12:05 PM, John H Palmieri
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Is this a bug?  Trailing question marks are parsed in %html blocks.
> In the notebook:
>
> sage: %html
> ...   How are you?
>
> No object 'you' currently defined.

That's definitely a bug.  Please report it to trac.  Thanks!

(What's happening behind the scenes is introspection, of course...)

 -- William

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[sage-devel] problem installing fricas

[John Cremona]

I tried to install fricas (prompted by an earlier thread -- I wonder
which?) but this happened (with 3.0.2 on linux):

 axiom_build_bindir =
/home/jec/sage-3.0.1/spkg/build/fricas-1.0.2/build-dir/build/x86_64-suse-linux/bin
checking for gcl... no
configure: error: GCL and GCL sources missing, see README.wh
***
Failed to configure Axiom.
***

real0m0.546s
user0m0.280s
sys 0m0.268s
sage: An error occurred while installing fricas-1.0.2
Please email sage-devel http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
explaining the problem and send the relevant part of
of /home/jec/sage-3.0.1/install.log.  Describe your computer,
operating system, etc.
If you want to try to fix the problem, yourself *don't* just cd to
/home/jec/sage-3.0.1/spkg/build/fricas-1.0.2 and type 'make'.
Instead type "/home/jec/sage-3.0.1/sage -sh"
in order to set all environment variables correctly, then cd to
/home/jec/sage-3.0.1/spkg/build/fricas-1.0.2
(When you are done debugging, you can type "exit" to leave the
subshell.)


Is there somewhere where package dependencies are listed?  Are these
checked (I guess not)?

John

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[sage-devel] bug with %html?

[John H Palmieri]

Is this a bug?  Trailing question marks are parsed in %html blocks.
In the notebook:

sage: %html
...   How are you?

No object 'you' currently defined.


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[sage-devel] Re: proof and open-source

[Harald Schilly]

On May 28, 7:28 pm, rjf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think my Tivo DVR runs Linux, and in principle I have access
> to the source, but I would no more consider trying to fix a bug in it than I
> would remove my own appendix.

This is more a problem of commercialization and being a closed system.
There are DVRs/recievers that are Linux based, open for installing new
software and have their own community of people who develop their own
code. So, this is in the wild, just not by TiVo!
The conclusion for me - about that and the current topic - is, that
you not only need a public source code, but also the community, the
ability and tools to develop, (in that case also an open hardware),
howtos, and yes, basically encuragement for those who want to write
software on their DVR and so on. i.e. I know that there are RSS
readers for DVRs with LAN... that's geeky, but cool ;)

About proofs: I think, the current state of understanding software and
hardware is just not mature enough to do this. As mentioned above,
this is a chain of respoinsibilites. It can't be a serious requirement
to proof basic cpu commands for doing abstract algebra - maybe every
time again for each command and each software package. This needs
layers and a new understanding what's going on. My (prbably naiive
understanding) is, that there are much more problems mentioned than in
reality. e.g. if you proof a statement X in pure mathematics, you
don't have to make sure that it is printed correctly in every place in
the universe - it just has to be correct in some virtual space of
imagination! (think of typos, ink problems, ...) The same holds true,
i think, for hardware flaws. Someone just has to trust into the
hardware to write correct algorithms. Also, the software itself is
layered: system libraries, kernel, management tools, APIs, ... It is
impossible to have to proof them just for using them. Therefore, only
the actual implementation using that whole stack should be checked...

At that point, maybe some time in the future, some abstract mapping of
code lines to logic with inferencing for correctness and back to code
will exist? To transform code into something canonical to analyze? I
don't know.
Also, I heared that the language Fortress want's to be close to typed
math (2d formula rendering in source code ...). Maybe that's a first
step towards closeing that gap between pure math and software
implementations?

H
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[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: [sage-devel] sage

[William Stein]

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 9:59 AM, rjf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> oh well. I'll try to respond civilly.

Because you've responded mostly civilly I'll respond civilly as well
to your civil questions.

> That is, I think it is  marketing hype to claim that SAGE, given its
> current trajectory, is now or will ever
> be an alternative to Mathematica  (as, say, Octave might be an
> alternative to Matlab).

The statement "The goal of the Sage project is to provide a free open
source viable alternative to Maple, Mathematica, Matlab, and Magma"
is not marketing hype.  It is not a claim that Sage is now such an alternative,
it's not a claim that Sage will ever be such an alternative, and it's
not a claim
that Sage is or will be the unique such alternative.  It is simply the
*goal* of the
Sage project.The purpose of this goal is to focus the direction of the
project, and help us decide what we should and shouldn't do.

> Well, it is true I have not tried to run it everywhere.  But I thought
> it ran on Mac, Linux, and (for me) on Windows.
> I never tried to compile Axiom myself, and I do not deem  "runs
> everywhere" to  mean "compiles everywhere".
> My impression is that the latter claim is what makes Axiom
> problematical for SAGE, but I never really got
> a confirmation of that.

The Sage package inclusion procedure is described here:

http://wiki.sagemath.org/spkg/InclusionProcedure

>> (c) In any case, rejecting Axiom is not how I would characterize things
>> and we are extremely grateful to Bill Page for helping Fricas work with
>> SAGE. Possibly with more work, Axiom would be part of SAGE, but that
>> is a SAGE community decision.
>
> I guess that from my perspective it indeed looks like you have
> rejected Axiom: it is a system with obvious merits, and it is not in
> SAGE.

Axiom (actually Fricas) is "in Sage".  It's just not included standard
with every copy of Sage.  It's easy to install into Sage though by doing

sage -i fricas-1.0.2

This uses pre-compiled lisp and should install pretty quickly (a few minutes)
on all Sage-supported platforms.   (Many thanks to the hard work of
Bill Page, Waldek Habisch, and Gaby Dos Reis for this!)

Your claim that Axiom is not in Sage is identical to claiming g++ isn't in
Ubuntu, because it doesn't come with the standard live/install cd.
However g++ is in Ubuntu because you can do

   apt-get install g++

> If I'm part of the community, given my current understanding of the
> situation,  my vote is to allow Axiom

Axiom is already in Sage.

> and reject (or change) your Design Principle.

Are you calling a vote to change

http://wiki.sagemath.org/spkg/InclusionProcedure

to remove the section about Build Support?

> As far as research being much easier with free and open source, that
> is itself a weak argument too, if you then make a rule that you cannot
> do research unless
> You can compile a program with a proprietary C compiler and if you
> wish, look at the assembler.
> Do you refuse to read journals that charge for subscriptions?  It is
> marginally easier to read articles if you have free access to them,
> but at least for me, I can get library access on my computer after
> typing in a password, so it is almost as easy, and has the added
> benefit that I am getting the actual article, not some "author's
> preprint".  Do you refuse to join scientific societies that
> charge dues? I pay dues.

I regularly read journals that charge for subscriptions, and I regularly
use commercial mathematical software.   I have valid licenses for
Maple, Magma, Mathematica, and Matlab, and I've used all these
programs in the last month.   In the last week I've downloaded dozens
of papers from pay-only subscription journals.

And yet, I find Sage/Python and open source math software in general
very useful.   Perhaps Fateman doesn't understand how this can
be possible because he is not engaged in pure math research, or
doesn't understand the current capabilities and drawbacks of the
aformentioned systems in all areas of mathematics.

>> Even if the code is "public" but not
>> FOSS, then that can potentially cause problems since copyright laws
>> can restrict
>> distributing modifications.
>
> Though I am not a lawyer, my understanding is that theorems and
> algorithms cannot be copyrighted.

Algorithms can be patented.   Anything a person writes down has a
reasonable chance of being copyrighted.

 -- William

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[sage-devel] Re: Sage Days

[Bjarke Hammersholt Roune]

I think something that would help Sage's correctness a lot would be
code for checking that structures in Sage has the properties that
those structure ought to have. As an example consider the very general
description of coercion at

http://www.sagemath.org/doc/html/prog/node17.html

If each structure in sage is able to produce a few interesting
examples of elements of that structure, then it is possible to write
some code that tests each of these rules for every structure in Sage.
That would uncover current bugs, and it would enable people to know
immediately if their code violates some requirement that the coercion
system depends on. This would work even better if each structure can
also return random elements.

I do not know if this has already been done for coercion, though I get
the impression that Sage is tested using doctests and in no other way.
However, this way of testing of course applies to any collection of
structures that share some abstract properties, such as groups and
rings.

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[sage-devel] Re: proof and open-source

[rjf]

To the vast majority of users, Linux is just as much a black box as
Windows.
Indeed, I think my Tivo DVR runs Linux, and in principle I have access
to the
source, but I would no more consider trying to fix a bug in it than I
would
remove my own appendix.

Given the whole range of programs and projects, some open, some not, I
find
it hard to say that I have more confidence in one class than
another ...
compare Adobe Acrobat to GCC?

In the realm of computer algebra systems, one trick is to do the same
computation in different systems.
If you get different answers, one or all of them are mistakes.
If you get the same answers, all of them are either correct or all of
them are wrong.  That last possibility is unfortunately credible; I
have encountered a number of  "system independent" errors.
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[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: [sage-devel] sage

[rjf]

oh well. I'll try to respond civilly.



<.. big snip..>


>
> > [RJF] I really don't care about Magma.  I know that some mathematicians do.
>
> This rather vague statement I think might signal a different between
> philosophies.

I did not mean to be vague.  I know that some mathematicians want to
do the calculations that are enabled by Magma.
So far as I can tell, I don't.

> Mathematicians I think agree that applications are great but that to
> create good and useful mathematics often starts by understanding an exploiting
> general mathematical principles. You and many others start with a real-world
> problem and try to solve it. Both approaches have their merits. This
> reminds me of a
> story I read in which the Queen of England asked Maxwell what good
> electricity was
> (which has just been discovered at the time). He replied, "Your
> majesty, what good
> is a baby?" May or may not be a true story but I think illustrates the
> difference in
> philosophies.

As long as we are posting stories, here's a riddle:

Question: What is the difference between a graduate student in pure
mathematics and a graduate student in theology?

Answer: The theology student has a career path after graduation.

Actually I think that one of the flaws in computer algebra system
design is that they are frequently technology driven, rather than
application driven or driven by what you seem to think are "general
principles".  What does this mean?

technology driven means (for example)  I know how to write an
algorithm to do X so I will include it in my program.
Or computers have 2 or 3 or 4 processors.  I know how to make
algorithm X run in parallel. so I will rewrite it. If you look at
recent conference or journal articles in symbolic math, you will see
many papers solving problems that no one else knew existed.

"general principles" probably means that it fits into the standard
structure of (say) modern algebra, or perhaps geometry, or some basic
logical foundational combinatorial computation.  Unfortunately, there
tends to be a large gap between (say) algebra and applications using
(say) analysis.  Viewing CAS from the general principles perspective
means that to do something practical you must build tools to reduce
everything you want to compute to something like polynomials or linear
algebra.  That means that regardless of how well you implement
polynomials, you haven't solved the analysis problem, or even improved
the prospect of solving analysis problems.

"application driven" has its problematical aspects too.  Some people
are happy with programs that sometimes give the wrong answers, because
"any physicist [etc] would check the answer from a computer to make
sure it made sense, anyway".
Yet, the inspiration from applications can be helpful.  I suppose
"applications to pure mathematics" can be helpful to some people, even
though it sounds like a contradiction  in terms to me.


>
>
>
> > Well, to say that Sage uniquely provides a viable free (etc)
> > alternative to Mathematica,
> > and then to admit that Sage calls Maxima, a viable free (etc) program
> > as the principal alternative to Mathematica,
> > suggests that there is a certain insincerity to the claim that Sage is
> > UNIQUE in providing that alternative.. free etc.
>
> > After all, Maxima is already free, open-source etc, and just as much
> > an alternative.
>
> It seems to me that this discussion can be summarized that you don't like
> the statement that one of SAGE's goals is to be a " viable free (etc)
> alternative to Mathematica, ...". That is fine. It is your opinion. William
> Stein likes that statement. You don't. He explained why he likes it and
> you've explained why you don't. However, it seems to be more of an
> argument over marketing hype rather than SAGE development, isn't it?

I agree entirely with your assessment!

That is, I think it is  marketing hype to claim that SAGE, given its
current trajectory, is now or will ever
be an alternative to Mathematica  (as, say, Octave might be an
alternative to Matlab).  And to
the extent that it is similar to Mathematica in (say) symbolic
integration, it is because it
simply uses another program, also available free, open-source etc,
written by people who, for
the most part, never heard of SAGE.



> Or are you trying to point out a specific decision of the SAGE development 
> team
> that you think is both (a) based on this goal, (b) a bad decision?
> If you are saying something to the effect "I think you should spend
> more time on X than Y" then I am missing the point and would be interested
> in a clarification.

No, I think the marketing hype assessment is the key.  Though if in
fact the SAGE development team
truly WANTS to reverse-engineer Mathematica, they need a better plan
than maybe trying to hire a high school student for the summer. And
probably a lawyer.



< more snip.. >

> > RJF:  Instead of standing on Axiom's shoulders, you stand on its toes. This
> > is, from a technical standpoint,
> 

[sage-devel] Re: Expose sage_search on sagemath.org

[Harald Schilly]

On May 28, 4:08 pm, Daniel Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ... that would provide
> another way for folks to see where they might apply their effort.

I don't really get the point about sage_search, but in my opinion, the
best place to see where to start working is the trac site: there is a
wish list http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/query?milestone=sage-wishlist
and open tickets. Probably, the kind of work one want's to put into
Sage is also restricted by the personal experience and knowledge.

Harald
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[sage-devel] Re: proof and open-source

[Dr. David Kirkby]

On 28 May, 05:39, rjf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I sent a note to boothby, asking that he forward it to sage-devel if
> my cc didn't work, which it didn't. But he didn't forward it. That's
> ok, I guess.
> In the unlikely event that you want to read the whole back-and-forth,
> please contact me or Tom.
>
> But there is one point that I think is worth discussing, and that is
> Tom's contention, not entirely novel, that the reason for open-
> source :.  "It's about proof; you can't prove a result with
> Mathematica, since one can't readily inspect the source."
>
> my reply, which you may chew on...
>
> You assume that seeing the source code is either necessary or
> sufficient for a proof. Can you prove that?
>
>  Read the paper by Demillon,Lipson, Perlis,  about proofs and social
> processes.
>
> How do you know that a program written in python, is correct unless
> you prove the compiler/interpreter is correct, the hardware it runs on
> is correct down to the gate level, there are no hardware glitches, the
> memory is proved, etc.

I agree, you can't prove the correctness. Also from a practical point
of view, even assuming the hardware, compliers, python etc are all ok,
not that many people will inspect the Sage code to see how a proof of
interest to them has been performed.

Even if the code is correct, cosmic events can flip a bit.  PROOF, in
the mathematical sense is not practical.

BUT experience with many pieces of software shown that having the
source open tends to help find bugs.

The Sage bug database is open too. If you know you used Bessel
functions in version X of Sage, it would be worth looking at the bug
list and see if there are any bugs related to Bessel functions which
have been fixed since you used it. If so, one would be wise to
investigage whether that bug  might have messed up your results. You
could not do this with Mathematica. WRI don't tend to publish their
bugs. Your good friend VB from the Ukraine has shown numerous bugs in
Mathematica, and even more in Maple.

One can't even compare Mathematica to other software on Mathgroup -
how draconian can that be? Even WRI employees can't post there without
their posts being vetted.

I don't use Sage myself, but the fact it is open-sourece would give me
more confidence than with the commercial computer algebra systems.








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[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: [sage-devel] sage

[David Joyner]

I found the tone of this email a little inappropriate but will try to reply in
a polite and I hope civil way. IMHO, it is very important to place a high value
on this email list as a space which one can find encouraging and
inspiring discussion
of the development of mathematical algorithms. Perhaps some of the
developers are old war-horses, who wear their battle-scares from flamewars
with pride, but others are just very bright students who are inspired to help
and learn. This type of tone doesn't help them and potentially can
scare them away.
I hope people will please take that into account when posting.

My replies, for what they are worth, are below.

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 10:04 AM, rjf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> On May 27, 11:22 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Richard, I didn't receive this note.  Perhaps you can re-send it?  Though, I 
>> should say: this topic toes the line between fact and religion.  I'm 
>> interested to hear your thoughts, but I will tire of the topic quickly, and 
>> I assume that much of sage-devel will, too.  Perhaps you could start a blog 
>> and people can read about it there?
>>
>> --tom
>>
>> On Tue, 27 May 2008, rjf wrote:
>>
>> > See the response to  a small part of this in a separate thread on open-
>> > source and proofs (unless the moderator removes that message.).

I'm a moderator and the only messages I have ever removed was porn/spam
which somehow got through. AFAIK, we don't remove messages which
we might not completely agree with.

>>
>> > I joined sage-devel some time ago, but as [EMAIL PROTECTED], and I
>> > haven't figured out how to rejoin it as [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> > If you want the FULL response as sent to Tom, you can ask him or me; I
>> > asked him to forward it to sage-devel but he, perhaps wisely,
>> > declined :)
>>
>> > The new thread is, I hope, of interest.
>>
>> > RJF
>
> ...
> Here is what I sent to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" and was not
> forwarded to sage-devel, apparently because Tom did not receive it.
> Could it be that having been rejected by sage-devel it was not sent on
> to other recipients? well, no matter.  Now recall that William has
> tried to call a moratorium on messages to/from me on this topic, and I
> am not terribly interested in continuing it beyond others' interest in
> responding.  Nevertheless, here is the lost mail from Monday.
>



>
>  The goal of
>> Sage is not to provide a transparent interface to these
>> systems (though I'm often surprised at how well the notebook
>> performs in this respect), but to be a cohesive system that
>> uses the best of each system we include.
>
> ... snip ... re open source equivalent for Magma
>>
>> Every single one of the above fails on the Magma requirement,
>> at the very least.
>>
>
> I really don't care about Magma.  I know that some mathematicians do.
>

This rather vague statement I think might signal a different between
philosophies.
Mathematicians I think agree that applications are great but that to
create good and useful mathematics often starts by understanding an exploiting
general mathematical principles. You and many others start with a real-world
problem and try to solve it. Both approaches have their merits. This
reminds me of a
story I read in which the Queen of England asked Maxwell what good
electricity was
(which has just been discovered at the time). He replied, "Your
majesty, what good
is a baby?" May or may not be a true story but I think illustrates the
difference in
philosophies.


>
> Well, to say that Sage uniquely provides a viable free (etc)
> alternative to Mathematica,
> and then to admit that Sage calls Maxima, a viable free (etc) program
> as the principal alternative to Mathematica,
> suggests that there is a certain insincerity to the claim that Sage is
> UNIQUE in providing that alternative.. free etc.
>
> After all, Maxima is already free, open-source etc, and just as much
> an alternative.

It seems to me that this discussion can be summarized that you don't like
the statement that one of SAGE's goals is to be a " viable free (etc)
alternative to Mathematica, ...". That is fine. It is your opinion. William
Stein likes that statement. You don't. He explained why he likes it and
you've explained why you don't. However, it seems to be more of an
argument over marketing hype rather than SAGE development, isn't it?
Or are you trying to point out a specific decision of the SAGE development team
that you think is both (a) based on this goal, (b) a bad decision?
If you are saying something to the effect "I think you should spend
more time on X than Y" then I am missing the point and would be interested
in a clarification.


>
>>
>> some ranting deleted...
>>
>>  Are you actually criticizing us for porting
>> other projects to previously unsupported platforms?  Is this
>> "standing on the toes of giants"?  Oh, this must be *such* an
>> inconvenience to people, that we're making their code work
>> better on more platforms!
>

[sage-devel] Re: Expose sage_search on sagemath.org

[Daniel Black]

Hi, Michael,

On May 28, 10:59 am, mabshoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On May 28, 4:08 pm, Daniel Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I was reading the Sage Programming Guide this morning (excellent read,
> > by the way), and the the end of section 2.4.1 mentions that "Using
> > sage_search from the Sage prompt . . . one can easily find . . .
> > keywords and in the case of todo: not implemented use the results to
> > motivate further development on Sage."  This got me thinking about the
> > ways I've been looking for areas to which to contribute; if there were
> > even a note, let alone a search field, on sagemath.org, that
> > referenced/searched (respectively) sage_search, that would provide
> > another way for folks to see where they might apply their effort.
>
> The new website has a search field and IIRC it is/can be restricted to
> the Sage documentation. See
>
> http://lite.sagemath.org/search.html

Maybe a blurb letting people know the documentation includes #todo
snippets would be enough.  Currently, unless a would-be contributor
has already read the Programming Guide, or has looked through code
enough to have come across such a string (and maybe not even in that
case), will he or she know these indicators of future development
exist.  Perhaps, instead, to minimize frontpage noise, a fourth bullet
or another sub-bullet on http://lite.sagemath.org/development.html
would be more fitting.

Daniel
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[sage-devel] Re: Sage Days

[Simon King]

On May 27, 9:11 pm, "David Roe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Algebraic topology.

Yes. And i'd be particularly interested in low-dimensional topology.

Reason: If Sage is supposed to become a viable alternative to Ma*,
then it may also try to cover the functionality of the Mathematica
package KnotTheory (see 
http://katlas.org/wiki/The_Mathematica_Package_KnotTheory).

One very important and active topic in knot theory is the Heegaard-
Floer knot homology (see http://katlas.org/wiki/Heegaard_Floer_Knot_Homology).
There is a Python program written by Jean-Marie Droz to compute it,
and it seems to be pretty cool (sources at 
http://www.math.unizh.ch/user/jdroz/).
I don't know if Jean-Marie Droz would be willing to provide his
program under GNU license, though.

Do i remember correctly that there will be Sage Days in Nancy? When
exactly? I'd be interested to participate.

Cheers
   Simon

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[sage-devel] Re: Expose sage_search on sagemath.org

[mabshoff]

On May 28, 4:08 pm, Daniel Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi, folks,

Hi Daniel,

> I was reading the Sage Programming Guide this morning (excellent read,
> by the way), and the the end of section 2.4.1 mentions that "Using
> sage_search from the Sage prompt . . . one can easily find . . .
> keywords and in the case of todo: not implemented use the results to
> motivate further development on Sage."  This got me thinking about the
> ways I've been looking for areas to which to contribute; if there were
> even a note, let alone a search field, on sagemath.org, that
> referenced/searched (respectively) sage_search, that would provide
> another way for folks to see where they might apply their effort.

The new website has a search field and IIRC it is/can be restricted to
the Sage documentation. See

http://lite.sagemath.org/search.html

> Certainly, this doesn't obviate the need to install Sage, nor to talk
> to developers and users; the former makes sage_search available while
> the latter captures planned functionality that might not exist in a
> docstring.  Does it add value, and make extended use of the
> documentation, though?
>
> Daniel

Cheers,

Michael
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[sage-devel] Expose sage_search on sagemath.org

[Daniel Black]

Hi, folks,

I was reading the Sage Programming Guide this morning (excellent read,
by the way), and the the end of section 2.4.1 mentions that "Using
sage_search from the Sage prompt . . . one can easily find . . .
keywords and in the case of todo: not implemented use the results to
motivate further development on Sage."  This got me thinking about the
ways I've been looking for areas to which to contribute; if there were
even a note, let alone a search field, on sagemath.org, that
referenced/searched (respectively) sage_search, that would provide
another way for folks to see where they might apply their effort.

Certainly, this doesn't obviate the need to install Sage, nor to talk
to developers and users; the former makes sage_search available while
the latter captures planned functionality that might not exist in a
docstring.  Does it add value, and make extended use of the
documentation, though?

Daniel
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[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: [sage-devel] sage

[rjf]

On May 27, 11:22 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Richard, I didn't receive this note.  Perhaps you can re-send it?  Though, I 
> should say: this topic toes the line between fact and religion.  I'm 
> interested to hear your thoughts, but I will tire of the topic quickly, and I 
> assume that much of sage-devel will, too.  Perhaps you could start a blog and 
> people can read about it there?
>
> --tom
>
> On Tue, 27 May 2008, rjf wrote:
>
> > See the response to  a small part of this in a separate thread on open-
> > source and proofs (unless the moderator removes that message.).
>
> > I joined sage-devel some time ago, but as [EMAIL PROTECTED], and I
> > haven't figured out how to rejoin it as [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > If you want the FULL response as sent to Tom, you can ask him or me; I
> > asked him to forward it to sage-devel but he, perhaps wisely,
> > declined :)
>
> > The new thread is, I hope, of interest.
>
> > RJF

...
Here is what I sent to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" and was not
forwarded to sage-devel, apparently because Tom did not receive it.
Could it be that having been rejected by sage-devel it was not sent on
to other recipients? well, no matter.  Now recall that William has
tried to call a moratorium on messages to/from me on this topic, and I
am not terribly interested in continuing it beyond others' interest in
responding.  Nevertheless, here is the lost mail from Monday.


I joined sage-devel some time ago, but as [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 I guess I have to fix that if this doesn't get posted.


This is from [EMAIL PROTECTED], responding to boothby..

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 5:57 PM
> To: Richard Fateman
> Cc: sage-devel@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Maxima] Fwd: [sage-devel] sage
>
> I'm posting this here and not the maxima mailing list,
> because this has nothing to do with Maxima.  Richard, why
> don't you join sage-devel and discuss this stuff here, where
> it's more relevant?
>
>
> On Mon, 26 May 2008, Richard Fateman wrote:
>
> > Mike:
> > thanks for forwarding the message.
> > I suppose WS can't actually post to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> without joining
> > the group.
> >
> > Lots of separate points I'd like to make, here.
> >
> > * Will Sage fail or not? there is abundant historical
> perspective for one or
> > another kind of failure, but that was then, not now, so who
> can tell. I
> > think it is too early to declare Sage a success, though
> that hasn't stopped
> > others. It would be nice to have some definition of success
> or failure to
> > measure.
>
> If nothing else, I use Sage on a daily basis for research,
> homework, and play., so that's one measure of success.  It
> seems to make your blood boil, and the Mathematica people
> have expressed concern regarding our mere presence, so that's
> another one.  I can't recall the last figures, but downloads
> are pretty high.
>

It may not come through in my mail, but I do not have a problem with
people using Sage for whatever they want.  I do have a problem with
claims that seem to me to be based on faulty understanding of computer
algebra systems like Maxima and Mathematica.

I would be quite surprised if Mathematica cares about Sage. My
understanding is that they view their competition as Matlab and Excel,
not even Maple.


>
> > * My expectation is that people who want to access Maxima
> should use Maxima
> > through an interface that supports ALL components of
> Maxima. I do not know
> > if Maxima, viewed through the lens of Sage, will reveal all
> its facilities.
> > This is certainly an issue for users of Maple who see it
> only through the
> > lens of Matlab's symbolic toolkit.  Attaching pieces of
> code via pseudo-ttys
> > in Python does not sound like a robust engineering technique.
>
> Yes.  If somebody *just* wants Maxima, they will download and
> run Maxima.  If they find Maxima's feature set lacking,
> they'll probably find what they need in Sage.

I find this absurd.  Consider the set of features S = {features in
Mathematica} - {features in Maxima}.
How many of these features are in Sage? How many will be implemented
in Sage in the near term?
Say, definite integration of special functions in terms of Meier G
functions.


 The goal of
> Sage is not to provide a transparent interface to these
> systems (though I'm often surprised at how well the notebook
> performs in this respect), but to be a cohesive system that
> uses the best of each system we include.

... snip ... re open source equivalent for Magma
>
> Every single one of the above fails on the Magma requirement,
> at the very least.
>

I really don't care about Magma.  I know that some mathematicians do.

.

>
> You're taking the word "viable" out of context here.

I don't think so. I'm using William Stein's criterion.

> I can't
> speak for everybody else, but I define "a viable alternative
> to " as a system which implements the functionality of

[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: [sage-devel] sage

[Harald Schilly]

On May 28, 12:26 pm, bill purvis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't think that's true...
yes, you can register with any email address here. it just has to be
verified... maybe, in the future things like OpenID will also work.

h
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[sage-devel] Re: Adding functions to Sage

[David Kohel]

Hi David, Nick, et al.,

I will also be arriving for SAGE Devel Days, on the 12th (with
jetlag).

I am interested on focusing on p-adic arithmetic and related
constructions.
A GaloisRing class is essentially an finite quotient of an unramified
p-adic
local ring; if a separate class is created, it should inherit from the
p-adic
quotients and have  a common code base.  The interest of users of a
GR
interface is likely to be low precision, normal bases, etc.  For my
use,
I want high precision, and fast Frobenius application balanced with
fast
multiplication.

At a more general level, I'd be interested in finding individuals
interested
in higher algebraic (and geometric) constructions and possibly forming
an
additional working group at SAGE Devel Days.

Cheers,

David


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[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: [sage-devel] sage

[bill purvis]

On Wednesday 28 May 2008, mabshoff wrote:
> On May 28, 6:47 am, rjf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> > See the response to  a small part of this in a separate thread on open-
> > source and proofs (unless the moderator removes that message.).
> >
> > I joined sage-devel some time ago, but as [EMAIL PROTECTED], and I
> > haven't figured out how to rejoin it as [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Usually you cannot join a Google group without a gmail account, so you
> won't be able to join with the cs.berkeley.edu address. I could add
> you to the list of subscribers with that email address if you so
> desire.
>
I don't think that's true - I joined the group with my old email address.
I now have a gmail address, but prefer to use a mail redirecting address
as below which forwards to the gmail mailbox. I had no real problems
setting up the Google groups to use either address.

Bill
-- 
+---+
| Bill Purvis, Amateur Mathematician|
|  email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]|
+---+

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[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: [sage-devel] sage

[John Cremona]

2008/5/28 Nick Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>> but I will tire of the topic quickly, and I assume that much of
>> sage-devel will, too.
>
> Or have already tired.
>

The topic of when we can trust a proof, whether or not
computer-assisted, is a very interesting one.  It is not specific to
Sage, of course.  I use many theorems in my research whose proofs I
have not fully read and/or understood, though I like to believe that I
could go and read them (and maybe understand them in time) if I could.
 I also trust other people (some of them!) who assure me of the
correctness of those proofs.  I would be less likely to trust those
people if they kept those proofs secret and refused to show them to
me, or only would do so if I paid them a lot of money.

ANyway, it is an interesting debate but not specifically relevant to sage-devel.

John Cremona

> Nick
>
> >
>

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