Re: [sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?
On 01/30/11 03:27 PM, Jonathan wrote: As one of the "non-mathematicians" (as a physical chemist who teaches quantum mechanics and kinetics = nonlinear differential equations and systems of differential equations, I'm not sure that is quite the right term, but I think you get the idea), I thought I should chime in. 1) I think SAGE has an adequate plan. I disagree. It is a community project. The successful open source projects I know about serve a need for the community(s) they serve, because the actual users contribute code that does what they want. Firefox, OpenOffice and FreeBSD are all successful open-source projects, but have a documented plans with at least projected time scales. If dates are regularly missed, then one needs to determine if they were unrealistic, and so allow more time for future plans. IMHO, Sage lacks a real direction/plan. Developers don't just add whatever they fancy to Firefox. Just because someone wants to be able to do something obscure in Firefox, their code does not get committed to the core. Instead they write an add-on https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/developers/docs/getting-started which is then available for download. This keeps the basic Firefox code reasonably compact and easy to manage. If the author of an add-on does not develop it further and it fails to work with more recent versions of Firefox, then so be it. Is solving Rubiks cubes really needed in Sage, or would that have been better if it was an add-on, which people installed if they needed it? It appears to me that if someone wants some quite obscure functionality in Sage, they write code and it gets added to the library. That might be really useful to that person, as they use it as part of their research. But IMHO, unless it is generally useful to a reasonable number of people it should not be in Sage. Put another way, there should be a discussion about what Sage needs, how urgent it is, and a plan drawn up. I thought porting Sage to Windows via Cygwin was seen as important, as it will dramatically increase the number of users. But this seems to have stalled. 2.5 years ago (June 2008 to be precise), Mike Hansen said "The first step which should be done within a few weeks is to get a Cygwin version of Sage for Windows." http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/browse_thread/thread/80cd1fa0c2f48eaa/94e06945347d6466?lnk=gst&q=cygwin+mike#94e06945347d6466 It was several months ago William said it would not take a lot of work if him and Mike worked on it. IIRC, it would a couple of weeks of work. That was before William start Psage, which seemed to be quite badly timed given the Cygwin port status. This Cygwin related page: http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/6743 has not been updated for a year, and another one: http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/wiki/CygwinPort has not been updated for 4 months. Michael Abshoff was *employed* to work on the Solaris port of Sage, yet went off on a tangent and did things that interested him. I tried to help on the Solaris port at that time, but got frustrated that changes Micheal knew of were not put into Sage. I was simply wasting my time, so I gave up for a few years. The key here is that you need a few dedicated individuals directing the project and ensuring that it moves forward. But that is not happening. For them it needs to be a nearly full- time job. Not necessarily. I'm involved in the Jmol project and we depend on one person who does the bulk of the work. Finding these people is difficult because they need to be supported in some way. This means the software has to be important for a company or this person has to be an academic who can convince their institution that the work is worthwhile and scholarly. I know in the case of the Solaris port, some body was convinced to pay Micheal to do the port, but IMHO he did not do an alful lot. In fact, several of his changes just made things more difficult. 2) I agree that SAGE could use more exposure. I have found it better for my teaching than Maple, which my institution has a license for. I can't speak of recent Mathematica editions, but I know that 15 years ago I found serious problems with it and gave up on it. Anyway, there are lots of people who could use SAGE, but there are two key issues: a) for Windows an install that runs in Windows as an application would be nice; Agreed - see comments above. I would like to introduce someone to Sage, but I'm wasting my time if she needs to learn Linux, Solaris, or buy a Mac first. So I'm suggesting she use Mathematica on Windows. As much as I don't like that idea, I don't feel able to recommend Sage. If there was a Windows port, then I might change my mind. 3) I think the issue of crackpots and bad code dragging things down is not much of a problem. I agree. My example may be a little slower than many people's because I also have very little time to contribute to this, but I still think
[sage-devel] Re: Sage 4.6.1 build failure in symmetrica-2.0.p5.spkg
Upon a closer look at the symmetrica spkg I noticed a lot of other oddities. Particularly ironic is the fact that the binary that fails to link on your machine is actually not used. I've updated my spkg (http://www.stp.dias.ie/~vbraun/Sage/spkg/symmetrica-2.0.p6.spkg), can you give it another try and let me know if it works for you? Volker -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:20 AM, Jason Grout wrote: > On 1/31/11 5:49 AM, Timothy Clemans wrote: > >> >> I think the first step is making it so one can easily edit the >> notebook if they built Sage from source. The test notebook would >> automatically be launched. Once you've launched the notebook you >> shouldn't have to touch the command line. > > > That's an interesting opportunity. Maybe the /src url, which apparently > currently shows the source tree, could have an "edit" link, like google code > or github does. We already ship (an old version of) codemirror. The edit > link could load the file into codemirror, allow an edit, check in the > changes, and then restart Sage. Edits on the notebook repository are > immediately live, and edits on the sage library would just require kicking > off a sage -br in the background (until some current projects I've been > hearing noises about fix that so that you don't have to do sage -br) > > It sounds possible, and almost immediately implementable for the notebook. > I suppose one nontrivial thing is maybe having some sort of user permission > to edit the notebook, and implementing the copying of the file and checking > in of changes (I certainly wouldn't want just anybody editing the public > sagenb.org notebook live!) Something like google code already lets you post patches, and it shouldn't be too hard to have a buildbot going in the background picking it up. For Python code the "build" overhead is minimal, and as long as you're not editing element.pxd, the feedback time shouldn't be too bad. (I wouldn't recommend rolling our own though unless we had to.) Editing the notebook itself online might be a bit dicey, but being able to swap out the backend is totally feasible (and something we should add to the patchbot). There's also the question of how little of Sage we could get away with copying to have many simultaneous users editing code. I wonder if a de-duping filesystem would be an easy solution. And for editing docstrings, adding examples, etc. it's a real shame one can't do that online. - Robert -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: Sage 4.6.1 build failure in symmetrica-2.0.p5.spkg
Hi Volker On Feb 1, 2:27 am, Volker Braun wrote: > I've made a trac ticket > > http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/10719 > > and an updated spkg: > > http://www.stp.dias.ie/~vbraun/Sage/spkg/symmetrica-2.0.p6.spkg Thanks again. I tested your spkg. It doesn't work. You also need to change makefile: - $(CC) $(CFLAGS) -lm test.c bar.o bi.o boe.o bruch.o classical.o de.o di.o ff.o galois.o ga.o gra.o hash.o hiccup.o io.o ko.o list.o lo.o ma.o mee.o mem.o mes.o mhe.o mhh.o mhm.o mhp.o mhs.o mmm.o mms.o mod_dg_sbd.o mo.o mpp.o mps.o mse.o msh.o msm.o mss.o muir.o na.o nb.o nc.o nu.o part.o pee.o peh.o pem.o perm.o pes.o phe.o phh.o phm.o phs.o plet.o pme.o pmh.o poly.o ppe.o pph.o ppm.o ppp.o pps.o pr.o pse.o psh.o psm.o pss.o rest.o rh.o sab.o sb.o sc.o sr.o ta.o teh.o tem.o tep.o tes.o the.o thm.o thp.o ths.o tme.o tmh.o tmp.o tms.o tpe.o tph.o tpm.o tps.o tse.o tsh.o tsm.o tsp.o vc.o zo.o zykelind.o zyk.o -o test + $(CC) $(CFLAGS) test.c bar.o bi.o boe.o bruch.o classical.o de.o di.o ff.o galois.o ga.o gra.o hash.o hiccup.o io.o ko.o list.o lo.o ma.o mee.o mem.o mes.o mhe.o mhh.o mhm.o mhp.o mhs.o mmm.o mms.o mod_dg_sbd.o mo.o mpp.o mps.o mse.o msh.o msm.o mss.o muir.o na.o nb.o nc.o nu.o part.o pee.o peh.o pem.o perm.o pes.o phe.o phh.o phm.o phs.o plet.o pme.o pmh.o poly.o ppe.o pph.o ppm.o ppp.o pps.o pr.o pse.o psh.o psm.o pss.o rest.o rh.o sab.o sb.o sc.o sr.o ta.o teh.o tem.o tep.o tes.o the.o thm.o thp.o ths.o tme.o tmh.o tmp.o tms.o tpe.o tph.o tpm.o tps.o tse.o tsh.o tsm.o tsp.o vc.o zo.o zykelind.o zyk.o -lm -o test -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: Sage 4.6.1 build failure in symmetrica-2.0.p5.spkg
On Feb 1, 2:27 am, Volker Braun wrote: > Are you still using gcc 4.4.1? I'm actually surprised that you were able to > compile the rest of Sage with that compiler. > > I've made a trac ticket > > http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/10719 > > and an updated spkg: > > http://www.stp.dias.ie/~vbraun/Sage/spkg/symmetrica-2.0.p6.spkg Thanks. I'm using: %gcc -v Using built-in specs. COLLECT_GCC=gcc COLLECT_LTO_WRAPPER=/usr/local/libexec/gcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/ 4.5.1/lto-wrapper Target: x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu Configured with: ../gcc-4.5.1/configure Thread model: posix gcc version 4.5.1 (GCC -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?
>> I think a cool thing would be a forum for users, where they can >> present their work with sage and also interact and work together on a >> project. ... > Why don't you research open source web apps that > could provide something like that? preliminary: http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/emil/doc/Demo/ -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?
> > My suggestions for improvements would be: > > Consolidate the forum. It is the main communication platform of the > > project (together with the trac system). It might be a good idea to > > reduce to maybe 3 google groups (Devel, Support, Users). One thing > > that bogs me is that in the current groups there are lists with no new > > postings for long time, and then there are other lists where postings > > fall "off the radar" very quickly, because there is much traffic and > > the listing on the front page is rather short. I don't know if this > > debatable at all, but there are other and more flexible forum/mailing > > list packages out there, which give more possibilities with user > > interaction (like attachements). > > Deleting other forums might alienate the people that lobbied for their > creation, and who do use them, so closing the other forums is not > going to happen. +1 also for those of us who don't want to wade through traffic in disciplines somewhat far from our expertise. > > > Since it was said that sage needs more people with engineering > > background: > > I think a cool thing would be a forum for users, where they can > > present their work with sage and also interact and work together on a > > project. Something like Wolfram Demonstration project, but even more > > community driven. So to say: give people the space to be an expert > > user of sage and be a respected member of the community without being > > a top notch programmer at sage-devel. > > That is a good idea. Why don't you research open source web apps that > could provide something like that? I better there is something ready > made, just likehttp://ask.sagemath.orgwas pretty much ready made. I > would be happy to provide the hardware resources to host something. Making the interacts doable without logging in (on the docket, I know) and then making the interact library MUCH more extensive than #9623 will make them (please review! I just need a review of a reviewer patch!) will essentially give us a Demonstrations-like thing. It might even be useful to have a server which only served low-load interacts, interact.sagenb.org or something... for Mma Demos I think you need both Player and to download the interact, as opposed to a Geogebra applet one can just put in a webpage (which would also be nice, but probably not practical for Sage). Also, there definitely *is* space for such people at Sage, and there are quite a few; however, many of them fill that role without posting much on sage-devel. sage-support and sage-edu have many such contributors. Most people I've met on the pedagogical side who use Sage *use* it, and are glad they don't have to know much programming to do so. - kcrisman -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] Re: post more
On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 02:49:03AM -0800, Robert Bradshaw wrote: > +1 I might not consolidate to 2 lists, but the -algebra one at least > is very low traffic and often highly relevant to sage-devel (and > anything not mentioned here is probably even lower). If I recall correctly, every message to sage-algebra is automatically forwarded to sage-devel. Or was just an intention that we agreed upon but did not actually get implemented? By the way, shall we do the same for sage-combinat-devel? Best, Nicolas -- Nicolas M. Thiéry "Isil" http://Nicolas.Thiery.name/ -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: Sage 4.6.1 build failure in symmetrica-2.0.p5.spkg
Are you still using gcc 4.4.1? I'm actually surprised that you were able to compile the rest of Sage with that compiler. I've made a trac ticket http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/10719 and an updated spkg: http://www.stp.dias.ie/~vbraun/Sage/spkg/symmetrica-2.0.p6.spkg Volker -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Sage 4.6.1 build failure in symmetrica-2.0.p5.spkg
Hi all, I'm trying to compile Sage 4.6.1 on openSUSE 11.2 x86_64 and have encountered the same bug I reported on May 16 last year with Sage 4.4.1. http://www.mail-archive.com/sage-devel@googlegroups.com/msg38879.html Th fix is to move "-lm" to the right place on the command line. See diff below. How do I file a bug report for this, so that it is fixed properly? Best, Paul diff -rub symmetrica-2.0.p5//patches/makefile.patch symmetrica-2.0.p5.new//patches/makefile.patch --- symmetrica-2.0.p5//patches/makefile.patch 2010-01-07 12:25:08.0 +1100 +++ symmetrica-2.0.p5.new//patches/makefile.patch 2011-01-31 23:13:46.0 +1100 @@ -20,4 +20,4 @@ + $(CC) -c $(CFLAGS) $< test: test.c bar.o bi.o boe.o bruch.o classical.o de.o di.o ff.o galois.o ga.o gra.o hash.o hiccup.o io.o ko.o list.o lo.o ma.o mee.o mem.o mes.o mhe.o mhh.o mhm.o mhp.o mhs.o mmm.o mms.o mod_dg_sbd.o mo.o mpp.o mps.o mse.o msh.o msm.o mss.o muir.o na.o nb.o nc.o nu.o part.o pee.o peh.o pem.o perm.o pes.o phe.o phh.o phm.o phs.o plet.o pme.o pmh.o poly.o ppe.o pph.o ppm.o ppp.o pps.o pr.o pse.o psh.o psm.o pss.o rest.o rh.o sab.o sb.o sc.o sr.o ta.o teh.o tem.o tep.o tes.o the.o thm.o thp.o ths.o tme.o tmh.o tmp.o tms.o tpe.o tph.o tpm.o tps.o tse.o tsh.o tsm.o tsp.o vc.o zo.o zykelind.o zyk.o - gcc -DALLTRUE -DFAST test.c bar.o bi.o boe.o bruch.o classical.o de.o di.o ff.o galois.o ga.o gra.o hash.o hiccup.o io.o ko.o list.o lo.o ma.o mee.o mem.o mes.o mhe.o mhh.o mhm.o mhp.o mhs.o mmm.o mms.o mod_dg_sbd.o mo.o mpp.o mps.o mse.o msh.o msm.o mss.o muir.o na.o nb.o nc.o nu.o part.o pee.o peh.o pem.o perm.o pes.o phe.o phh.o phm.o phs.o plet.o pme.o pmh.o poly.o ppe.o pph.o ppm.o ppp.o pps.o pr.o pse.o psh.o psm.o pss.o rest.o rh.o sab.o sb.o sc.o sr.o ta.o teh.o tem.o tep.o tes.o the.o thm.o thp.o ths.o tme.o tmh.o tmp.o tms.o tpe.o tph.o tpm.o tps.o tse.o tsh.o tsm.o tsp.o vc.o zo.o zykelind.o zyk.o -lm -o test -+ $(CC) $(CFLAGS) -lm test.c bar.o bi.o boe.o bruch.o classical.o de.o di.o ff.o galois.o ga.o gra.o hash.o hiccup.o io.o ko.o list.o lo.o ma.o mee.o mem.o mes.o mhe.o mhh.o mhm.o mhp.o mhs.o mmm.o mms.o mod_dg_sbd.o mo.o mpp.o mps.o mse.o msh.o msm.o mss.o muir.o na.o nb.o nc.o nu.o part.o pee.o peh.o pem.o perm.o pes.o phe.o phh.o phm.o phs.o plet.o pme.o pmh.o poly.o ppe.o pph.o ppm.o ppp.o pps.o pr.o pse.o psh.o psm.o pss.o rest.o rh.o sab.o sb.o sc.o sr.o ta.o teh.o tem.o tep.o tes.o the.o thm.o thp.o ths.o tme.o tmh.o tmp.o tms.o tpe.o tph.o tpm.o tps.o tse.o tsh.o tsm.o tsp.o vc.o zo.o zykelind.o zyk.o -o test ++ $(CC) $(CFLAGS) test.c bar.o bi.o boe.o bruch.o classical.o de.o di.o ff.o galois.o ga.o gra.o hash.o hiccup.o io.o ko.o list.o lo.o ma.o mee.o mem.o mes.o mhe.o mhh.o mhm.o mhp.o mhs.o mmm.o mms.o mod_dg_sbd.o mo.o mpp.o mps.o mse.o msh.o msm.o mss.o muir.o na.o nb.o nc.o nu.o part.o pee.o peh.o pem.o perm.o pes.o phe.o phh.o phm.o phs.o plet.o pme.o pmh.o poly.o ppe.o pph.o ppm.o ppp.o pps.o pr.o pse.o psh.o psm.o pss.o rest.o rh.o sab.o sb.o sc.o sr.o ta.o teh.o tem.o tep.o tes.o the.o thm.o thp.o ths.o tme.o tmh.o tmp.o tms.o tpe.o tph.o tpm.o tps.o tse.o tsh.o tsm.o tsp.o vc.o zo.o zykelind.o zyk.o -lm -o test -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:36 AM, Jason Grout wrote: > On 1/31/11 6:31 AM, Timothy Clemans wrote: >> >> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:20 AM, Jason Grout >> wrote: >>> >>> On 1/31/11 5:49 AM, Timothy Clemans wrote: >>> I think the first step is making it so one can easily edit the notebook if they built Sage from source. The test notebook would automatically be launched. Once you've launched the notebook you shouldn't have to touch the command line. >>> >>> >>> That's an interesting opportunity. Maybe the /src url, which apparently >>> currently shows the source tree, could have an "edit" link, like google >>> code >>> or github does. We already ship (an old version of) codemirror. The edit >>> link could load the file into codemirror, allow an edit, check in the >>> changes, and then restart Sage. Edits on the notebook repository are >>> immediately live, and edits on the sage library would just require >>> kicking >>> off a sage -br in the background (until some current projects I've been >>> hearing noises about fix that so that you don't have to do sage -br) >>> >>> It sounds possible, and almost immediately implementable for the >>> notebook.. >>> I suppose one nontrivial thing is maybe having some sort of user >>> permission >>> to edit the notebook, and implementing the copying of the file and >>> checking >>> in of changes (I certainly wouldn't want just anybody editing the public >>> sagenb.org notebook live!) >> >> My thought is there would be two notebook servers running, the server >> you editing from, and the test server with the new code. > > > Ahh. That would be both safer and probably (slightly?) harder to implement. On a personal machine you probably don't need that for the rest of Sage but I think you do for the notebook. I don't want to be editing the notebook and then all the sudden not be able to edit anymore because one of my edits broke the notebook. Maybe a better first step is letting a personal machine user edit and run something like a Django project from the notebook. > > Jason > > -- > To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to > sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel > URL: http://www.sagemath.org > -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?
On 1/31/11 6:31 AM, Timothy Clemans wrote: On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:20 AM, Jason Grout wrote: On 1/31/11 5:49 AM, Timothy Clemans wrote: I think the first step is making it so one can easily edit the notebook if they built Sage from source. The test notebook would automatically be launched. Once you've launched the notebook you shouldn't have to touch the command line. That's an interesting opportunity. Maybe the /src url, which apparently currently shows the source tree, could have an "edit" link, like google code or github does. We already ship (an old version of) codemirror. The edit link could load the file into codemirror, allow an edit, check in the changes, and then restart Sage. Edits on the notebook repository are immediately live, and edits on the sage library would just require kicking off a sage -br in the background (until some current projects I've been hearing noises about fix that so that you don't have to do sage -br) It sounds possible, and almost immediately implementable for the notebook.. I suppose one nontrivial thing is maybe having some sort of user permission to edit the notebook, and implementing the copying of the file and checking in of changes (I certainly wouldn't want just anybody editing the public sagenb.org notebook live!) My thought is there would be two notebook servers running, the server you editing from, and the test server with the new code. Ahh. That would be both safer and probably (slightly?) harder to implement. Jason -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:20 AM, Jason Grout wrote: > On 1/31/11 5:49 AM, Timothy Clemans wrote: > >> >> I think the first step is making it so one can easily edit the >> notebook if they built Sage from source. The test notebook would >> automatically be launched. Once you've launched the notebook you >> shouldn't have to touch the command line. > > > That's an interesting opportunity. Maybe the /src url, which apparently > currently shows the source tree, could have an "edit" link, like google code > or github does. We already ship (an old version of) codemirror. The edit > link could load the file into codemirror, allow an edit, check in the > changes, and then restart Sage. Edits on the notebook repository are > immediately live, and edits on the sage library would just require kicking > off a sage -br in the background (until some current projects I've been > hearing noises about fix that so that you don't have to do sage -br) > > It sounds possible, and almost immediately implementable for the notebook. > I suppose one nontrivial thing is maybe having some sort of user permission > to edit the notebook, and implementing the copying of the file and checking > in of changes (I certainly wouldn't want just anybody editing the public > sagenb.org notebook live!) My thought is there would be two notebook servers running, the server you editing from, and the test server with the new code. > > Jason > > -- > To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to > sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel > URL: http://www.sagemath.org > -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?
On 1/29/11 9:52 AM, rjf wrote: Even assuming that the junk-submitter takes no time at all from project management on the "front end", the need to review "contributions" is certainly a drain. Realizing, and then explaining to some loser why his code is junk takes time. Ironically, reading much of your post has been a less productive use of my time than helping a motivated student learn from their mistakes and teaching them how to improve themselves and the code they write. My primary professional goal is to help *people* learn and improve (including myself :). Thanks, Jason -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?
On 1/31/11 5:49 AM, Timothy Clemans wrote: I think the first step is making it so one can easily edit the notebook if they built Sage from source. The test notebook would automatically be launched. Once you've launched the notebook you shouldn't have to touch the command line. That's an interesting opportunity. Maybe the /src url, which apparently currently shows the source tree, could have an "edit" link, like google code or github does. We already ship (an old version of) codemirror. The edit link could load the file into codemirror, allow an edit, check in the changes, and then restart Sage. Edits on the notebook repository are immediately live, and edits on the sage library would just require kicking off a sage -br in the background (until some current projects I've been hearing noises about fix that so that you don't have to do sage -br) It sounds possible, and almost immediately implementable for the notebook. I suppose one nontrivial thing is maybe having some sort of user permission to edit the notebook, and implementing the copying of the file and checking in of changes (I certainly wouldn't want just anybody editing the public sagenb.org notebook live!) Jason -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?
On 1/30/11 4:42 PM, Jonathan wrote: Ivan, I am aware that you've been working on this. However, I have not had any time to look at it. If things go well with my classes and administrative responsibilities in the next couple of weeks I may get a chance. I am very glad you have worked on this. I think it is on the download page, at least if you have 10.6: http://boxen.math.washington.edu/sage/osx/intel/index.html (see the -app download) Jason -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 2:18 AM, William Stein wrote: > On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 2:12 AM, Timothy Clemans > wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 1:48 AM, Simon King wrote: >>> On 31 Jan., 07:13, William Stein wrote: On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Emil Widmann wrote: > But. > I strongly resent the comments and "spirit" of Prof. Fateman. Using > classifications like "losers" and "winners", "top producers" and "junk > submitters" he introduces very elitist terminology and patterns of > argumentation into this thread. This spawned terms like "bad apples" > and "crackpot" and moved the focus of the thread. Before it was > positive and open minded with the goal to spread the word of sage and > attract new people for contribution. Afterwards it had negative and > defensive tone and - worst of all - was full of doubt. ... > But sometimes it is not only important if an opinion is > right or wrong, but also which words, phrasings, lines of > argumentation or more general "categories of thinking" are used. Right > and wrong are just relevant in reference to a specific framework. And > it is my strong opinion, that this specific intellectual framework of > categorizing people should not be used on a public (or semi public) > forum about a volunteer open source project. >>> >>> Meanwhile I agree, and I apologise for providing some paragraphs about >>> "losers". One should keep in mind that such categories are not >>> objective and thus ought not to be applied to people (being volunteer >>> for an open source project or not). And you are right that the output >>> of a person (to which "right" and "wrong" might apply) must not be >>> confused with the person itself. >>> I think absolutely *anybody* has the potential to contribute usefully to the Sage project, and for it to be a net positive. Seriously. Anybody. Your grandma. Some people program, some people find bugs, some find typos in documentation, some write documentation, and some write bug-riddled prototypes that point the way or teach us a lesson. >> >> This is Sage's number one strength IMHO. I'm unskilled and give up >> quickly. However because of the culture and ease of building source >> and editing it I was able to create the Notebook's registration page. >> I think the key reason for encouraging unskilled contributors like >> myself is you get important contributions like the Notebook >> registration page that I doubt you would get otherwise. Heck Wikipedia >> changed the world because it encourages ANYONE to edit it. > > +1 > >> >> In my opinion making the Sage development process even easier could go >> a long way. I've often recently thought that people should be able to >> develop sage via the notebook without ever having to download Sage. I >> don't have what it takes to successful extend the notebook to do that. >> But it's at least an idea. > > It's a very good idea. In fact, it's been suggested to me a few > times in the last two months, most recently when I gave a talk to a > bunch of undergrad applied math majors at UW. They just *expected* it > to be possible to edit Sage over the web, like one can edit Wikipedia, > and were surprised when I said it wasn't yet implemented. > > I really hope we can figure out how to do this, this year. What > are the other *software* projects out there that can be dynamically > edited through the web? > I don't know of ANY projects that do that. http://wiki.sagemath.org/EasyQuickSageDevelopment I think the first step is making it so one can easily edit the notebook if they built Sage from source. The test notebook would automatically be launched. Once you've launched the notebook you shouldn't have to touch the command line. I think the second step would be to create HG patches from the notebook. Third step would be to create tickets, submit patches, etc entirely from the notebook. I have no interest in math anymore but I want to do web development entirely from the web browser. And I want to be able to launch web sites where ALMOST ANYONE can actively edit the site's code live. I started working on a prototype for a WolframAlpha competitor yesterday http://semanticeverything.ep.io/ and I want to make it so people can develop the site from within the site itself. > > > -- > William Stein > Professor of Mathematics > University of Washington > http://wstein.org > > -- > To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to > sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel > URL: http://www.sagemath.org > -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/
Re: [sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 2:12 AM, Timothy Clemans wrote: > On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 1:48 AM, Simon King wrote: >> On 31 Jan., 07:13, William Stein wrote: >>> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Emil Widmann >>> wrote: >>> > But. >>> > I strongly resent the comments and "spirit" of Prof. Fateman. Using >>> > classifications like "losers" and "winners", "top producers" and "junk >>> > submitters" he introduces very elitist terminology and patterns of >>> > argumentation into this thread. This spawned terms like "bad apples" >>> > and "crackpot" and moved the focus of the thread. Before it was >>> > positive and open minded with the goal to spread the word of sage and >>> > attract new people for contribution. Afterwards it had negative and >>> > defensive tone and - worst of all - was full of doubt. >>> ... >>> > But sometimes it is not only important if an opinion is >>> > right or wrong, but also which words, phrasings, lines of >>> > argumentation or more general "categories of thinking" are used. Right >>> > and wrong are just relevant in reference to a specific framework. And >>> > it is my strong opinion, that this specific intellectual framework of >>> > categorizing people should not be used on a public (or semi public) >>> > forum about a volunteer open source project. >> >> Meanwhile I agree, and I apologise for providing some paragraphs about >> "losers". One should keep in mind that such categories are not >> objective and thus ought not to be applied to people (being volunteer >> for an open source project or not). And you are right that the output >> of a person (to which "right" and "wrong" might apply) must not be >> confused with the person itself. >> >>> I think absolutely *anybody* has the potential to >>> contribute usefully to the Sage project, and for it to be a net >>> positive. Seriously. Anybody. Your grandma. Some people program, >>> some people find bugs, some find typos in documentation, some write >>> documentation, and some write bug-riddled prototypes that point the >>> way or teach us a lesson. > > This is Sage's number one strength IMHO. I'm unskilled and give up > quickly. However because of the culture and ease of building source > and editing it I was able to create the Notebook's registration page. > I think the key reason for encouraging unskilled contributors like > myself is you get important contributions like the Notebook > registration page that I doubt you would get otherwise. Heck Wikipedia > changed the world because it encourages ANYONE to edit it. +1 > > In my opinion making the Sage development process even easier could go > a long way. I've often recently thought that people should be able to > develop sage via the notebook without ever having to download Sage. I > don't have what it takes to successful extend the notebook to do that. > But it's at least an idea. It's a very good idea. In fact, it's been suggested to me a few times in the last two months, most recently when I gave a talk to a bunch of undergrad applied math majors at UW. They just *expected* it to be possible to edit Sage over the web, like one can edit Wikipedia, and were surprised when I said it wasn't yet implemented. I really hope we can figure out how to do this, this year. What are the other *software* projects out there that can be dynamically edited through the web? -- William Stein Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 1:48 AM, Simon King wrote: > On 31 Jan., 07:13, William Stein wrote: >> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Emil Widmann wrote: >> > But. >> > I strongly resent the comments and "spirit" of Prof. Fateman. Using >> > classifications like "losers" and "winners", "top producers" and "junk >> > submitters" he introduces very elitist terminology and patterns of >> > argumentation into this thread. This spawned terms like "bad apples" >> > and "crackpot" and moved the focus of the thread. Before it was >> > positive and open minded with the goal to spread the word of sage and >> > attract new people for contribution. Afterwards it had negative and >> > defensive tone and - worst of all - was full of doubt. >> ... >> > But sometimes it is not only important if an opinion is >> > right or wrong, but also which words, phrasings, lines of >> > argumentation or more general "categories of thinking" are used. Right >> > and wrong are just relevant in reference to a specific framework. And >> > it is my strong opinion, that this specific intellectual framework of >> > categorizing people should not be used on a public (or semi public) >> > forum about a volunteer open source project. > > Meanwhile I agree, and I apologise for providing some paragraphs about > "losers". One should keep in mind that such categories are not > objective and thus ought not to be applied to people (being volunteer > for an open source project or not). And you are right that the output > of a person (to which "right" and "wrong" might apply) must not be > confused with the person itself. > >> I think absolutely *anybody* has the potential to >> contribute usefully to the Sage project, and for it to be a net >> positive. Seriously. Anybody. Your grandma. Some people program, >> some people find bugs, some find typos in documentation, some write >> documentation, and some write bug-riddled prototypes that point the >> way or teach us a lesson. This is Sage's number one strength IMHO. I'm unskilled and give up quickly. However because of the culture and ease of building source and editing it I was able to create the Notebook's registration page. I think the key reason for encouraging unskilled contributors like myself is you get important contributions like the Notebook registration page that I doubt you would get otherwise. Heck Wikipedia changed the world because it encourages ANYONE to edit it. In my opinion making the Sage development process even easier could go a long way. I've often recently thought that people should be able to develop sage via the notebook without ever having to download Sage. I don't have what it takes to successful extend the notebook to do that. But it's at least an idea. Maybe a key goal should be to get at one commit of a patch written by a quarter of students taking a class on Sage. Make Sage even more like Wikipedia. > > I almost agree. You are certainly right about my grandma. But I met > people who have substantial errors in their work and have a self- > esteem that would not allow them to acknowledge that there was > anything wrong at all. I don't mind the errors - it is the ignorance > that I can't stand. It is tempting to try and teach such person, but > the effort is wasted. > > One could argue that "such person drags other people down". But, > convinced by what Emil and William said, I think one should better say > that "some other people let themselves be dragged down". I guess there > are ways of self-defense that allow one to keep a positive attitude, > and that's better than to repulse someone. > > Cheers, > Simon > > -- > To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to > sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel > URL: http://www.sagemath.org > -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?
On 31 Jan., 07:13, William Stein wrote: > On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Emil Widmann wrote: > > But. > > I strongly resent the comments and "spirit" of Prof. Fateman. Using > > classifications like "losers" and "winners", "top producers" and "junk > > submitters" he introduces very elitist terminology and patterns of > > argumentation into this thread. This spawned terms like "bad apples" > > and "crackpot" and moved the focus of the thread. Before it was > > positive and open minded with the goal to spread the word of sage and > > attract new people for contribution. Afterwards it had negative and > > defensive tone and - worst of all - was full of doubt. > ... > > But sometimes it is not only important if an opinion is > > right or wrong, but also which words, phrasings, lines of > > argumentation or more general "categories of thinking" are used. Right > > and wrong are just relevant in reference to a specific framework. And > > it is my strong opinion, that this specific intellectual framework of > > categorizing people should not be used on a public (or semi public) > > forum about a volunteer open source project. Meanwhile I agree, and I apologise for providing some paragraphs about "losers". One should keep in mind that such categories are not objective and thus ought not to be applied to people (being volunteer for an open source project or not). And you are right that the output of a person (to which "right" and "wrong" might apply) must not be confused with the person itself. > I think absolutely *anybody* has the potential to > contribute usefully to the Sage project, and for it to be a net > positive. Seriously. Anybody. Your grandma. Some people program, > some people find bugs, some find typos in documentation, some write > documentation, and some write bug-riddled prototypes that point the > way or teach us a lesson. I almost agree. You are certainly right about my grandma. But I met people who have substantial errors in their work and have a self- esteem that would not allow them to acknowledge that there was anything wrong at all. I don't mind the errors - it is the ignorance that I can't stand. It is tempting to try and teach such person, but the effort is wasted. One could argue that "such person drags other people down". But, convinced by what Emil and William said, I think one should better say that "some other people let themselves be dragged down". I guess there are ways of self-defense that allow one to keep a positive attitude, and that's better than to repulse someone. Cheers, Simon -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
