Re: [sage-devel] [ARM] The failed numerical tests only show the tests are bad!
Le Mon, 6 Feb 2012 17:59:57 -0800 (PST), Dima Pasechnik a écrit : > still, might be worth trying (unlike with (e)glibc) Well, after some poking around, it seems it's a mistake to confuse eglibc and glibc, especially when considering upstream friendliness to suggestions/bug reports/patches ; here is a blog post about the debian developper which uploaded eglibc in debian : http://blog.aurel32.net/47 (now eglibc is the default libc in debian, and hence in ubuntu) So perhaps that isn't such a bad idea to try to fix the issue at its root : in eglibc! Snark -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] Re: [ARM] The failed numerical tests only show the tests are bad!
Le Mon, 6 Feb 2012 15:27:48 -0800 (PST), rjf a écrit : > On Feb 6, 9:00 am, Julien Puydt wrote: > > Still, I'm glad you think the problem is trivial/doesn't exist : > > that means you'll be able to provide a nice patch real soon. > > > > Looking forward for your fix, thanks for your suggestions, > I wasn't offering a patch. The problem is a PICNIC. > == Problem in Chair not in Computer. I have a ptestlong.log with failing test, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't sit in a chair. Please get out of that thread since you think it's not worth your attention, Snark on #sagemath -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] [ARM] The failed numerical tests only show the tests are bad!
On Tuesday, February 7, 2012 7:57:11 AM UTC+8, Jonathan Bober wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Dr. David Kirkby <> wrote: > >> On 02/ 5/12 10:16 PM, Jonathan Bober wrote: >> >> Never mind all that: the gsl implementation is not very good at all, >>> whereas the libc implementation on my machine seems quite good. Old >>> (libc): >>> >> >> If that's the case, why not report the fact to the appropiate mailing >> list - bug-gsl at gnu.org? >> >> dave >> > > Well, I just sort of assume that the gsl developers have some idea how > accurate their gamma function is and perhaps they consider their > implementation just fine. It might not be a bug --- it might just be a > design decision. Instead of "not very good" I should have said "not as > accurate as eglibc". > still, might be worth trying (unlike with (e)glibc) Dima -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: Saving GAP objects across sessions
A workaround is to use GAP facilities to encode a pc group using a pair of integers. Cutting from the GAP manual on CodePcgs gap> G := SmallGroup( 24, 12 );; gap> p := Pcgs( G );; gap> code := CodePcgs( p ); 5790338948 gap> H := PcGroupCode( code, 24 ); gap> map := GroupHomomorphismByImages( G, H, p, FamilyPcgs(H) ); Pcgs([ f1, f2, f3, f4 ]) -> Pcgs([ f1, f2, f3, f4 ]) gap> IsBijective(map); true That is, in Sage you'd do sage: G = gap.SmallGroup( 24, 12 ) sage: code=gap.CodePcgs(gap.Pcgs( G )) sage: code 5790338948 (and you can easily store 24 and 5790338948), and then recover them: sage: gap.PcGroupCode(code,24) Group( [ f1, f2, f3, f4 ] ) HTH, Dima -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] [ARM] The failed numerical tests only show the tests are bad!
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Dr. David Kirkby wrote: > On 02/ 5/12 10:16 PM, Jonathan Bober wrote: > > Never mind all that: the gsl implementation is not very good at all, >> whereas the libc implementation on my machine seems quite good. Old >> (libc): >> > > If that's the case, why not report the fact to the appropiate mailing list > - bug-gsl at gnu.org? > > dave > Well, I just sort of assume that the gsl developers have some idea how accurate their gamma function is and perhaps they consider their implementation just fine. It might not be a bug --- it might just be a design decision. Instead of "not very good" I should have said "not as accurate as eglibc". -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] use "./configure; make" for Sage?
On 02/ 6/12 09:09 AM, Jeroen Demeyer wrote: On 2012-02-06 09:33, Dr. David Kirkby wrote: I think trying to replicate autotools would be just silly. That's what PARI tried and they are probably the spkg with the *most* patches to the configuration system. More fool them. SCons is another attempt at a build system, but I was not keen on it. I noticed another Sage developer removed it from some package, as he too found it frustrating. I think autoconf/automake is very convenient for users, though it is not the easiest program for developers. I pretty much re-wrote the "prereq" script from scratch, as that was written to use autoconf, but whoever wrote it did not read the autoconf documentation. They just started coding, which is very unwise with autoconf. Dave -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: [ARM] The failed numerical tests only show the tests are bad!
to quote from the Kahan/Darcy paper.. http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~wkahan/JAVAhurt.pdf Strictly speaking, a number can possess neither precision nor accuracy. A number possesses only its value. Precision attaches to the format into which the number is written or stored or rounded. Better ( higher or wider ) precision implies finer resolution or higher density among the numbers representable in that format. All three of 3 3.0 E0 3.0 D0 have exactly the same value though the first is written like a 2-byte INTEGER in Fortran or int in C, the second is written like a 4-byte REAL in Fortran or 8-byte double in C, and the third is written for 8-byte DOUBLE PRECISION in Fortran. To some eyes these numbers are written in order of increasing precision. To other eyes the integer “ 3 ” is exact and therefore more precise than any floating-point “ 3.0 ” can be. Precision ( usually Relative precision ) is commonly gauged in “ significant digits ” regardless of a number’s significance. Many a textbook asserts that a floating-point number represents the set of all numbers that differ from it by no more than a fraction of the difference between it and its neighbors with the same floating-point format. This figment of the author’s imagination may influence programmers who read it but cannot otherwise affect computers that do not read minds. A number can represent only itself, and does that perfectly. -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: [ARM] The failed numerical tests only show the tests are bad!
On Feb 6, 9:00 am, Julien Puydt wrote: > ... > 0.0 is a range of numbers, and zero is in that range, and I think they > shouldn't be considered equal. That is your opinion. People have other opinions. Some programming languages implement 0.0 numerically equal to (integer) 0. For example, ANSI standard common lisp. Ordinarily, object equality would work only for items of the same type, though inheritance and such muddies the water. I think that numerical analysts' most useful view is that the floating point number 0.0 is a representation of the exact number zero, and no other number or range. The view that floats are ranges leads to a host of really bad designs. Like, can you construct an interval as a pair of floats? Uh, no, because the upper and lower bounds are themselves floats, which are themselves intervals... > > I know most compilers/interpreters in most languages will tell > otherwise, but it is a lie, That is your opinion, and not commonly shared by persons skilled in the art. > and some languages *do* refuse such > comparisons, so the idea isn't unhelpful ; it's a design choice that > others made. I am not aware of any programming languages that refuse to test for equality of floating-point numbers. It is a useful operation in some cases, e.g. did an iterative refinement leave a floating-point number unchanged? Time to exit the loop. > > Even if the ARM eglibc has precision issues, the fact that sage makes > float computations then tests with an equality is still wrong (worse, > it's converting them to strings then testing that for equality!) I expect that Sage (and Sage testing) does a large number of things wrong. There is a large literature on testing of numerical software, and I daresay that none of it suggests converting numbers to strings to test for equality. >: that > makes those tests portable essentially to x86_64/linux, x86_64/mosx, > x86_64/win32... > > > I suggest you become better informed on the topic. > > I'm conscious of the difference between an exact computation > and a numerical computation, which I think is a pretty good start, even > if I admit (again) it isn't perfect. You may be mistaken in your understanding. > > > In order to keep this note from being complete snark, > > I chose my nickname years ago in reference to "The hunting of the > snark", by Lewis Carroll (see [1]); and since I'm not a native english > speaker, I wasn't (back then) even aware of the word/meaning you just > used. Now I do know it, and I find you choice of words quite petty. Quite petty? How kind of you. In referring to my own comments as snark, I was characterizing them as sarcastic/abusive. > > > let me suggest > > you (and others concerned about these matters look at this) > >http://www.cims.nyu.edu/~dbindel/class/cs279/dsb-bib.pdf > > It is a nice list of references ; if you could have a look at [2], I > think you would see that the problem isn't as simple as you think it > is. The first two paragraphs will be enough. I am well aware of the distinction between the precision of a double- float and a double-float-extended. That does not alter the fact that 0.0 in double or double-extended is numerically equal to 0. For a dissertation on the problems caused by the interaction of language designers, compilers and arithmetic systems that either allow or forbid double- extended and its affect on programming language implementation, see http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~wkahan/JAVAhurt.pdf If the tests are performed all on the same machine with the same arithmetic, it would make sense to check various identities such as sin^2+cos^2==1, or gamma(5.0)==24.0 rather than reading in a text string. > > Still, I'm glad you think the problem is trivial/doesn't exist : that > means you'll be able to provide a nice patch real soon. > > Looking forward for your fix, thanks for your suggestions, I wasn't offering a patch. The problem is a PICNIC. == Problem in Chair not in Computer. RJF > > Snark on #sagemath > > [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunting_of_the_Snark > [2]http://www.network-theory.co.uk/docs/gccintro/gccintro_70.html -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] [ARM] The failed numerical tests only show the tests are bad!
On 02/ 5/12 10:16 PM, Jonathan Bober wrote: Never mind all that: the gsl implementation is not very good at all, whereas the libc implementation on my machine seems quite good. Old (libc): If that's the case, why not report the fact to the appropiate mailing list - bug-gsl at gnu.org? dave -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: sage -b compiler/linker flags
Cython uses the distutils CFLAGS by default:
sage: from distutils import sysconfig
sage: sysconfig.get_config_var('CFLAGS')
'-fno-strict-aliasing -g -O2 -DNDEBUG -g -O3 -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes'
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[sage-devel] Re: Programming animation
On Feb 6, 2:58 pm, Socius wrote: > On 6 Feb, 18:57, LFS wrote: > > > I have to admit that I use GeoGebra for almost everything not 3d. It > > is absolutely fantastic (I do videos on the youtube.com/ > > geogebrachannel and have a wiki and a moodle on ggb.) > > > But sage is great (and I have started a youtube.com/sagemath channel > > and a sage wiki, but they are in their infancy.) > > (a) for 3d and > > (b) for creating "solvers" because of its linearity which helps kids > > focus on the steps. > > (c) I really like the "organization" in sage with the text fields and > > sage fields. > > > (I also use scratch to teach my kids to test their probability > > results). > > Hi Linda. > Congrats for your activities with Geogebra and now Sage. Do you > publish videos on the official Youtube geogebra channel? I often visit > the channel, and I am surely interested also in new videos about Sage. So you did http://www.youtube.com/sagemath ? Very interesting! Jason Grout has already been singing your 3D worksheets' praises. We do post a lot of videos from Sage Days at YouTube (see http://www.youtube.co/user/wstein389, William's posted videos), but I didn't realize someone (LFS) had started a channel. That could be useful. cc:ing sage-devel - there should be some coordination here among people who upload videos. > Actually my secret (not so) dream is a program with all the modules of > Sage, the simplicity and interactivity (also for animations) of > Geogebra, and a free structure notebook-style as Mathcad. I hope that > both GG and Sage (maybe together one day?) will develop towards that > goal. Could be hard! But at least you can use Geogebra from within Sage to some extent because of the web start for GG. http://flask.sagenb.org/home/pub/87/ A longer-term ticket, with a lot of work on it done already: http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/7489 - kcrisman -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] Re: Unifying Command line options
That SEP suggests adding subcommands similar to what Andrew suggested. But I don't agree with removing sage -t etc because you can get the same functionality with make. David On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 05:08, Keshav Kini wrote: > I just found this SEP (Sage Enhancement Proposal), which one might want to > take a look at: http://wiki.sagemath.org/UnifiedCommandLineSEP > > > -Keshav > > > Join us in #sagemath on irc.freenode.net ! > > -- > To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to > sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel > URL: http://www.sagemath.org > -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] sage -b compiler/linker flags
Where does "./sage -b" get its compiler/linker executable name and flags from? I'm not talking about module-specific options, but the general ones like "-O2 -g". -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: Should we slowly move the .py files to .pyx files now that we have iterators ?
On 2/5/12 1:25 AM, Keshav Kini wrote: I remember being told that [the owner field] is meaningless now and we should CC someone if we want them to see the ticket. Yes, that is pretty much still the situation. Jason -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Sage Days 38 in Montreal : First Announcement
PLEASE ADVERTISE WHERE APPROPRIATE Prière de diffuser cette information le plus largement possible. L'annonce en français suit l'anglais. Sage Days 38 First Announcement CRM, Montreal, May 7--11, 2012 Sage (www.sagemath.org) is a mathematics software package, developed by and for the mathematics community. It aims to become a viable alternative to commercial software packages on the basis of an open-source model. This workshop will be a 5-day intensive workshop to serve both as introduction to Sage and as an open developers meeting. The event will include a combination of mathematical talks, tutorials, demonstrations of Sage functionality as well as time spent on Sage development. The principal focus of the developers meeting is algebraic combinatorics and the representation theory of algebras. Further information is available at the following websites: http://wiki.sagemath.org/days38 INVITED SPEAKERS * Meinolf Geck, University of Aberdeen * Florent Hivert, LRI, Université Paris-Sud * Anne Schilling, University of California Davis * Øyvind Solberg, Norwegian University of Science and Technology * Nicolas Thiéry, LMO, Université Paris-Sud WHO SHOULD ATTEND You! A specific goal of the workshop is to provide a venue for faculty, graduate students and undergraduate students to learn more about the software. This will make it accessible to researchers at all levels, *even those without any prior experience with Sage*. Since it will be held in May, it is an excellent opportunity for undergraduate students embarking on summer research projects and graduate students looking to incorporate scientific computation into their research projects. REGISTRATION AND FINANCIAL SUPPORT Online registration will be available starting at the end of February through the official CRM website. In the meantime, you can express your intention to participate by completing the following questionnaire: http://goo.gl/q8o9j A limited amount of financial support is available for students, postdocs, and researchers without grants. You can register and apply for financial support through the conference website once the forms become available. Sincerely Yours, The organizing committee Srecko Brlek, Université du Québec à Montréal Sébastien Labbé, Université du Québec à Montréal Franco Saliola, Université du Québec à Montréal Sage Days 38 Première annonce CRM, Montréal, du 7 au 11 mai 2012 Sage (www.sagemath.org) est un logiciel libre de mathématiques développé par et pour la communauté mathématique visant à devenir une alternative viable aux logiciels commerciaux tels que Magma, Maple, Mathematica et Matlab. La conférence prendra la forme d'un atelier intensif de cinq jours et servira à la fois d'introduction au logiciel Sage et de réunion pour les utilisateurs et les développeurs. La conférence comprendra des présentations mathématiques, des tutoriels sur Sage et ses fonctionalités ainsi que des séances de développement de Sage. Le thème principal de la réunion des développeurs est la combinatoire algébrique et la théorie des représentations des algèbres. Information supplémentaire est disponible sur les pages web suivantes: http://wiki.sagemath.org/days38 CONFÉRENCIERS INVITÉS * Meinolf Geck, University of Aberdeen * Florent Hivert, LRI, Université Paris-Sud * Anne Schilling, University of California Davis * Øyvind Solberg, Norwegian University of Science and Technology * Nicolas Thiéry, LMO, Université Paris-Sud QUI DEVRAIT PARTICIPER ? Vous! Un objectif spécifique de l'atelier est de fournir un lieu pour les professeurs et les étudiants du premier cycle et des cycles supérieurs pour apprendre à utiliser Sage. Il sera accessible aux chercheurs et enseignants de tous les niveaux, *même ceux sans aucune expérience avec Sage*. Comme il sera tenu en mai, il sera une occasion en or pour les étudiants de premier cycle qui se lanceront dans des projets de recherche à l'été 2012 et pour les étudiants des cycles supérieurs qui cherchent à incorporer le calcul scientifique dans leurs projets de recherche. INSCRIPTION ET AIDE FINANCIÈRE L'inscription en ligne sera disponible à partir de la fin du mois de février sur le site web officiel du CRM. En attendant, vous pouvez exprimer votre intention de participer en remplissant le questionnaire ci-dessous: http://goo.gl/q8o9j Une aide financière est disponible pour les étudiants, post-docs et chercheurs sans subventions. Vous pouvez vous inscrire et demander l'aide financière à partir du site web de la conférence (lorsque les formulaires seront disponibles). Cordialement, Le comité d'organisation Srecko Brlek, Université du Québec à Montréal Sébastien Labbé, Université du Québec à Montréal Franco Saliola, Univ
[sage-devel] Re: VirtualBox
On Monday, February 6, 2012 3:23:13 AM UTC-8, Emil Widmann wrote: > > > VBscript is an ugly abomination, nobody in his right mind will > voluntarily > > use it. > Lots of people (windows folks) use it even voluntarily They even use Windows voluntarily ;-) My first thought was it might be overkill to ship a complete > programming language and a Gui frontend [...] I agree that when you just need a shell script then VBscript is the path of least resistance. But I'm talking about a non-trivial app that drives VBoxManage through a pexpect interface, network access, GUI, maybe even wrap a browser component. -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] small MAX_MODULUS in modular matrix charpoly computation
On 6 February 2012 17:21, John Cremona wrote: > Thanks! > > Barinder has genuine matrices A, B which give a representation of A_4 > in 26 dimensions over Q(zeta_11), i.e. A^2=I and B^3 = I and some > commutator relation holds. I was surprised when he told me that > A.eigenspaces_right() had beeen running for 2 days (though it turned > out that that A was wrong, it did satisfy A^2=I). > > My example was random: I took J=diag(1,1,...,1,-1,-1,...,-1) with 13 > +1's and 13 -1's and conjugated by a random M (which was > unsurprisingly invertible) to get an Q whose char poly was (X-1)^13 * > (X+1)^13. Using algorithm='pari' gave that correctly, but took > quite a while (the time has scrolled off my screen, it was > 2000s I > think). But in our computation we know that A and B both have +1 as > an eigenvalue and we only want their +1-eigenspaces, which (for my > random A) only takes 87s. > > The matrix is in sagemath:/home/cremona/M26.sobj if you want to play > with it; but remember that this is a random M with M^2=I, not one we > actually want for real. > Sorry I mixed up notation. The conjugating matrix (now lost) was random; the result of conjugating is the one called M, which I saved, and it does satisfy M^2=I with char poly (X-1)^13*(X+1)^13. John > John > > On 6 February 2012 17:01, William Stein wrote: >> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 6:49 AM, John Cremona wrote: >>> I was trying to find eigenspaces of a 26x26 matrix over Q(zeta_11) >>> (for a modular forms application) and ran into: >> >> Can you make your matrix available, e.g., as an sobj on sage.math (or >> somewhere) that I can download. >> It's possible that the real problem is a bug in the echelon routine, >> not the size of the modulus. >> If the multimodular echelon fails to stabilize -- due to a bug -- then >> the consequence is that eventually >> the primes would run out. However, this is highly unlikely to happen >> in practice unless the entries of >> the answer are truly gigantic. >> >> -- William >> >>> >>> RuntimeError: we ran out of primes in multimodular charpoly algorithm >>> >>> which on investigation led me to the following lines in >>> sage/ext/multi_modular.pyx: >>> >>> # We use both integer and double operations, hence the min. >>> # MAX_MODULUS = min(int(sqrt(int(MOD_INT_OVERFLOW))-1), int(2)**int(20)) >>> >>> # Hard coded because currently matrix_modn_dense is implemented using C ints >>> # which are always 32-bit. Once this gets fixed, i.e., there is a better >>> # matrix_modn class, then this can change. >>> MAX_MODULUS = 46341 >>> >>> so I am just wondering if anyone out there has this on their to-do >>> list. Meanwhile using algorithm='pari' will have to do, though it is >>> slow >>> >>> This is a small trial run. We'll be doing a 50x50 over Q(zeta_13) for >>> real >>> >>> John >>> >>> -- >>> To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to >>> sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel >>> URL: http://www.sagemath.org >> >> >> >> -- >> William Stein >> Professor of Mathematics >> University of Washington >> http://wstein.org >> >> -- >> To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to >> sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel >> URL: http://www.sagemath.org -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] small MAX_MODULUS in modular matrix charpoly computation
Thanks! Barinder has genuine matrices A, B which give a representation of A_4 in 26 dimensions over Q(zeta_11), i.e. A^2=I and B^3 = I and some commutator relation holds. I was surprised when he told me that A.eigenspaces_right() had beeen running for 2 days (though it turned out that that A was wrong, it did satisfy A^2=I). My example was random: I took J=diag(1,1,...,1,-1,-1,...,-1) with 13 +1's and 13 -1's and conjugated by a random M (which was unsurprisingly invertible) to get an Q whose char poly was (X-1)^13 * (X+1)^13.Using algorithm='pari' gave that correctly, but took quite a while (the time has scrolled off my screen, it was > 2000s I think). But in our computation we know that A and B both have +1 as an eigenvalue and we only want their +1-eigenspaces, which (for my random A) only takes 87s. The matrix is in sagemath:/home/cremona/M26.sobj if you want to play with it; but remember that this is a random M with M^2=I, not one we actually want for real. John On 6 February 2012 17:01, William Stein wrote: > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 6:49 AM, John Cremona wrote: >> I was trying to find eigenspaces of a 26x26 matrix over Q(zeta_11) >> (for a modular forms application) and ran into: > > Can you make your matrix available, e.g., as an sobj on sage.math (or > somewhere) that I can download. > It's possible that the real problem is a bug in the echelon routine, > not the size of the modulus. > If the multimodular echelon fails to stabilize -- due to a bug -- then > the consequence is that eventually > the primes would run out. However, this is highly unlikely to happen > in practice unless the entries of > the answer are truly gigantic. > > -- William > >> >> RuntimeError: we ran out of primes in multimodular charpoly algorithm >> >> which on investigation led me to the following lines in >> sage/ext/multi_modular.pyx: >> >> # We use both integer and double operations, hence the min. >> # MAX_MODULUS = min(int(sqrt(int(MOD_INT_OVERFLOW))-1), int(2)**int(20)) >> >> # Hard coded because currently matrix_modn_dense is implemented using C ints >> # which are always 32-bit. Once this gets fixed, i.e., there is a better >> # matrix_modn class, then this can change. >> MAX_MODULUS = 46341 >> >> so I am just wondering if anyone out there has this on their to-do >> list. Meanwhile using algorithm='pari' will have to do, though it is >> slow >> >> This is a small trial run. We'll be doing a 50x50 over Q(zeta_13) for >> real >> >> John >> >> -- >> To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to >> sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel >> URL: http://www.sagemath.org > > > > -- > William Stein > Professor of Mathematics > University of Washington > http://wstein.org > > -- > To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to > sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel > URL: http://www.sagemath.org -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] small MAX_MODULUS in modular matrix charpoly computation
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 6:49 AM, John Cremona wrote: > I was trying to find eigenspaces of a 26x26 matrix over Q(zeta_11) > (for a modular forms application) and ran into: Can you make your matrix available, e.g., as an sobj on sage.math (or somewhere) that I can download. It's possible that the real problem is a bug in the echelon routine, not the size of the modulus. If the multimodular echelon fails to stabilize -- due to a bug -- then the consequence is that eventually the primes would run out. However, this is highly unlikely to happen in practice unless the entries of the answer are truly gigantic. -- William > > RuntimeError: we ran out of primes in multimodular charpoly algorithm > > which on investigation led me to the following lines in > sage/ext/multi_modular.pyx: > > # We use both integer and double operations, hence the min. > # MAX_MODULUS = min(int(sqrt(int(MOD_INT_OVERFLOW))-1), int(2)**int(20)) > > # Hard coded because currently matrix_modn_dense is implemented using C ints > # which are always 32-bit. Once this gets fixed, i.e., there is a better > # matrix_modn class, then this can change. > MAX_MODULUS = 46341 > > so I am just wondering if anyone out there has this on their to-do > list. Meanwhile using algorithm='pari' will have to do, though it is > slow > > This is a small trial run. We'll be doing a 50x50 over Q(zeta_13) for > real > > John > > -- > To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to > sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel > URL: http://www.sagemath.org -- William Stein Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] Re: [ARM] The failed numerical tests only show the tests are bad!
Le Mon, 6 Feb 2012 07:45:49 -0800 (PST), rjf a écrit : > > On Feb 5, 3:02 am, Julien Puydt wrote: > > Le 04/02/2012 23:11, Robert Bradshaw a crit : > > > > . > > > I think cos(0.0) != 1.0 isn't bad, since 0.0 isn't zero anyway, and > > 1.0 isn't one anyway. In fact, I would welcome if using strict > > comparisons on floats triggered an exception. > > > > And this monotonicity condition in numerical approximations is new > > to me... do you have a reference handy? I always thought the only > > condition was on relative error. > > > Given your admitted ignorance on the topic of numerical > approximations, I admit again that I don't know enough details to be confortable with it -- or I wouldn't call for feedback and help here : I would just provide a nice patch! > how much weight should we give to your expressed thought that 0.0 > isn't zero > and 1.0 isn't one? (etc.) Hint: your thoughts are unhelpful. 0.0 is a range of numbers, and zero is in that range, and I think they shouldn't be considered equal. I know most compilers/interpreters in most languages will tell otherwise, but it is a lie, and some languages *do* refuse such comparisons, so the idea isn't unhelpful ; it's a design choice that others made. Even if the ARM eglibc has precision issues, the fact that sage makes float computations then tests with an equality is still wrong (worse, it's converting them to strings then testing that for equality!): that makes those tests portable essentially to x86_64/linux, x86_64/mosx, x86_64/win32... > I suggest you become better informed on the topic. I'm conscious of the difference between an exact computation and a numerical computation, which I think is a pretty good start, even if I admit (again) it isn't perfect. > In order to keep this note from being complete snark, I chose my nickname years ago in reference to "The hunting of the snark", by Lewis Carroll (see [1]); and since I'm not a native english speaker, I wasn't (back then) even aware of the word/meaning you just used. Now I do know it, and I find you choice of words quite petty. > let me suggest > you (and others concerned about these matters look at this) > http://www.cims.nyu.edu/~dbindel/class/cs279/dsb-bib.pdf It is a nice list of references ; if you could have a look at [2], I think you would see that the problem isn't as simple as you think it is. The first two paragraphs will be enough. Still, I'm glad you think the problem is trivial/doesn't exist : that means you'll be able to provide a nice patch real soon. Looking forward for your fix, thanks for your suggestions, Snark on #sagemath [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunting_of_the_Snark [2] http://www.network-theory.co.uk/docs/gccintro/gccintro_70.html -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: [ARM] The failed numerical tests only show the tests are bad!
On Feb 5, 3:02 am, Julien Puydt wrote: > Le 04/02/2012 23:11, Robert Bradshaw a crit : > > . > I think cos(0.0) != 1.0 isn't bad, since 0.0 isn't zero anyway, and 1.0 > isn't one anyway. In fact, I would welcome if using strict comparisons > on floats triggered an exception. > > And this monotonicity condition in numerical approximations is new to > me... do you have a reference handy? I always thought the only condition > was on relative error. > Given your admitted ignorance on the topic of numerical approximations, how much weight should we give to your expressed thought that 0.0 isn't zero and 1.0 isn't one? (etc.) Hint: your thoughts are unhelpful. I suggest you become better informed on the topic. In order to keep this note from being complete snark, let me suggest you (and others concerned about these matters look at this) http://www.cims.nyu.edu/~dbindel/class/cs279/dsb-bib.pdf RJF -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] small MAX_MODULUS in modular matrix charpoly computation
I was trying to find eigenspaces of a 26x26 matrix over Q(zeta_11) (for a modular forms application) and ran into: RuntimeError: we ran out of primes in multimodular charpoly algorithm which on investigation led me to the following lines in sage/ext/multi_modular.pyx: # We use both integer and double operations, hence the min. # MAX_MODULUS = min(int(sqrt(int(MOD_INT_OVERFLOW))-1), int(2)**int(20)) # Hard coded because currently matrix_modn_dense is implemented using C ints # which are always 32-bit. Once this gets fixed, i.e., there is a better # matrix_modn class, then this can change. MAX_MODULUS = 46341 so I am just wondering if anyone out there has this on their to-do list. Meanwhile using algorithm='pari' will have to do, though it is slow This is a small trial run. We'll be doing a 50x50 over Q(zeta_13) for real John -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: Saving GAP objects across sessions
Hi Javier, On 6 Feb., 14:34, David Joyner wrote: > There is a way to save the gap workspace. I think it is > explained in the gap interface module somewhere. > That might help. But, as much as I know, one can not save individual GAP objects. Note that in some cases (e.g., Permutation Groups) you can work around the problem by saving the string representation of the GAP object, and reconstruct the object from that string representation. That won't always work (and I think this is quite a weakness of GAP), but in your example it does work: sage: G = gap.SymmetricGroup(4) sage: G SymmetricGroup( [ 1 .. 4 ] ) sage: s = repr(G) sage: tmp = tmp_filename() sage: save(s,tmp) sage: gap(load(tmp)) SymmetricGroup( [ 1 .. 4 ] ) Cheers, Simon -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] Saving GAP objects across sessions
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:46 AM, javier wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> is there a way of saving (a list of) GAP objects so that they can be
> recovered in a different session?
There is a way to save the gap workspace. I think it is
explained in the gap interface module somewhere.
That might help.
>
> This is a minimal example of what we get right now. In my particular
> situation, the group(s) are obtained from the Small Group Library
> (contained in the database-gap optional package) so they cannot be
> easily converted to sage groups:
>
>
> sage: G = gap.SymmetricGroup(4)
> sage: save(G, "Ggap")
> sage: exit
>
> And after opening sage again:
>
> sage: H = load("Ggap")
> sage: H
> ---
> ValueError Traceback (most recent call
> last)
>
> /Users/javier/code/ in ()
>
> /Applications/sage/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/IPython/
> Prompts.pyc in __call__(self, arg)
> 550
> 551 # and now call a possibly user-defined print
> mechanism
>
> --> 552 manipulated_val = self.display(arg)
> 553
> 554 # user display hooks can change the variable to be
> stored in
>
>
> /Applications/sage/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/IPython/
> Prompts.pyc in _display(self, arg)
> 576 return IPython.generics.result_display(arg)
> 577 except TryNext:
> --> 578 return self.shell.hooks.result_display(arg)
> 579
> 580 # Assign the default display method:
>
>
> /Applications/sage/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/IPython/hooks.pyc
> in __call__(self, *args, **kw)
> 139 #print "prio",prio,"cmd",cmd #dbg
>
> 140 try:
> --> 141 ret = cmd(*args, **kw)
> 142 return ret
> 143 except ipapi.TryNext, exc:
>
> /Applications/sage/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/misc/
> displayhook.pyc in result_display(ip_self, obj)
> 148 # IPython's default result_display() uses the
> IPython.genutils.Term.cout stream.
>
> 149 # See also local/lib/python2.6/site-packages/IPython/
> hooks.py.
>
> --> 150 print_obj(IPython.genutils.Term.cout, obj)
> 151
> 152 def displayhook(obj):
>
> /Applications/sage/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/misc/
> displayhook.pyc in print_obj(out_stream, obj)
> 140 if _check_tall_list_and_print(out_stream, obj):
> 141 return
> --> 142 print >>out_stream, `obj`
> 143
> 144 def result_display(ip_self, obj):
>
> /Applications/sage/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/interfaces/
> gap.pyc in __repr__(self)
> 714 2
> 715 """
> --> 716 s = ExpectElement.__repr__(self)
> 717 if s.find('must have a value') != -1:
> 718 raise RuntimeError, "An error occurred creating an
> object in %s from:\n'%s'\n%s"%(self.parent().name(), self._create, s)
>
> /Applications/sage/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/interfaces/
> interface.pyc in __repr__(self)
> 869
> 870 def __repr__(self):
> --> 871 self._check_valid()
> 872 try:
> 873 if self._get_using_file:
>
> /Applications/sage/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/interfaces/
> expect.pyc in _check_valid(self)
> 1157 raise ValueError, "The %s session in which
> this object was defined is no longer running."%P.name()
> 1158 except AttributeError:
> -> 1159 raise ValueError, "The session in which this
> object was defined is no longer running."
> 1160 return P
> 1161
>
> ValueError: The session in which this object was defined is no longer
> running.
>
> --
> To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to
> sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
> URL: http://www.sagemath.org
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[sage-devel] Re: VirtualBox
> disagrees with the current behavior of > `sage -upgrade`, which tries to merge any committed changes into the > new version you're upgrading to. That doesn't make sense IMO but there > you are. Do avoid another misunderstanding: Of course I don't suggest that sage -upgrade should have a different behaviour. It will work with the compressed filesystem. On the other hand, doing lots of upgrades leads the concept of the layered filesystem ad absurdum, because then you have the old version in the squashfile, and great parts of the new version uncompressed on the disk. I was specifically referring about the proposed possibility to exchange the whole squashfs with a new version. It is asking for trouble to pull out the old base. It is not guaranteed that the overlay of changes will work correctly with the new version. If one does lots of upgrades or have changes in the original sage directory tree, then a normal filesystem is better. On the other hand, if one "just uses" sage, and does just "clean" updates between major versions, then I see no problem in using and exchanging sage as a whole in a new compressed file. Now I don't know if "sage -upgrade" is mostly painless, or if there are caveats or problems hiding around the corner which might hit unexpecting and innocent windows users. So replacing sage as a whole (either the complete VM or just the sage inside the VM) might be the easier and save option for real users. And another clarification: I think at the moment the existing Fedora VM should be used as reference, which has an uncompressed filesystem. The actual implementation of the VM is a - still rather important - detail. > .. _py2exe:http://py2exe.org/ > .. _PySide:http://pyside.org/ Yes I was thinking on rather shipping binaries instead of the whole python bundle. I saw that PySide uses the Qt toolkit which is rather heavy, but I think whoever decides to work on this should choose the toolchain he/ she likes. > Maybe you just > meant that it is a built-in scripting language in Windows, which is > true, but as you said, there's no problem in shipping binaries for > Windows. You can explain better what I mean than myself. That's quite embarrassing, but well ... Thanks emil -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: Unifying Command line options
I just found this SEP (Sage Enhancement Proposal), which one might want to take a look at: http://wiki.sagemath.org/UnifiedCommandLineSEP -Keshav Join us in #sagemath on irc.freenode.net ! -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Saving GAP objects across sessions
Hi all,
is there a way of saving (a list of) GAP objects so that they can be
recovered in a different session?
This is a minimal example of what we get right now. In my particular
situation, the group(s) are obtained from the Small Group Library
(contained in the database-gap optional package) so they cannot be
easily converted to sage groups:
sage: G = gap.SymmetricGroup(4)
sage: save(G, "Ggap")
sage: exit
And after opening sage again:
sage: H = load("Ggap")
sage: H
---
ValueErrorTraceback (most recent call
last)
/Users/javier/code/ in ()
/Applications/sage/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/IPython/
Prompts.pyc in __call__(self, arg)
550
551 # and now call a possibly user-defined print
mechanism
--> 552 manipulated_val = self.display(arg)
553
554 # user display hooks can change the variable to be
stored in
/Applications/sage/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/IPython/
Prompts.pyc in _display(self, arg)
576 return IPython.generics.result_display(arg)
577 except TryNext:
--> 578 return self.shell.hooks.result_display(arg)
579
580 # Assign the default display method:
/Applications/sage/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/IPython/hooks.pyc
in __call__(self, *args, **kw)
139 #print "prio",prio,"cmd",cmd #dbg
140 try:
--> 141 ret = cmd(*args, **kw)
142 return ret
143 except ipapi.TryNext, exc:
/Applications/sage/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/misc/
displayhook.pyc in result_display(ip_self, obj)
148 # IPython's default result_display() uses the
IPython.genutils.Term.cout stream.
149 # See also local/lib/python2.6/site-packages/IPython/
hooks.py.
--> 150 print_obj(IPython.genutils.Term.cout, obj)
151
152 def displayhook(obj):
/Applications/sage/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/misc/
displayhook.pyc in print_obj(out_stream, obj)
140 if _check_tall_list_and_print(out_stream, obj):
141 return
--> 142 print >>out_stream, `obj`
143
144 def result_display(ip_self, obj):
/Applications/sage/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/interfaces/
gap.pyc in __repr__(self)
714 2
715 """
--> 716 s = ExpectElement.__repr__(self)
717 if s.find('must have a value') != -1:
718 raise RuntimeError, "An error occurred creating an
object in %s from:\n'%s'\n%s"%(self.parent().name(), self._create, s)
/Applications/sage/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/interfaces/
interface.pyc in __repr__(self)
869
870 def __repr__(self):
--> 871 self._check_valid()
872 try:
873 if self._get_using_file:
/Applications/sage/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/interfaces/
expect.pyc in _check_valid(self)
1157 raise ValueError, "The %s session in which
this object was defined is no longer running."%P.name()
1158 except AttributeError:
-> 1159 raise ValueError, "The session in which this
object was defined is no longer running."
1160 return P
1161
ValueError: The session in which this object was defined is no longer
running.
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: VirtualBox
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 20:03, mmarco wrote: > I have little experience with pyqt, and i am not sure that would be > the way to go. A windows user that would want to use a pyqt program > would need to have installed in his system: python, pyqt and qt. The > offline windows installer of qt is 1.3 gigs. That's overkill for a > simple gui app. There must be a simpler way to do it. > > I haven't used pyside, but for what i see in the documentation, it > follows the same approach than pyqt. This is 100% avoidable. Here is an example of a standalone Windows executable which is written in Python using PyQt: http://ankisrs.net/ After installation it is a couple dozen megabytes, and this is a full-featured application that does a bunch of stuff including audio/video playback, HTML rendering, network connectivity, sqlite data storage, etc. etc. I'm not sure exactly how it is done but I assume it uses some combination of py2exe and Qt tools. (Taking a look in the source code should prove enlightening: http://github.com/dae/ankiqt ). After installation there are some Qt-named DLL files sitting in the program's directory. You absolutely do not need the Qt SDK, or a copy of Python, or a copy of PyQt to run such an application. To develop the application is a different story of course. -Keshav Join us in #sagemath on irc.freenode.net ! -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] Re: Should we slowly move the .py files to .pyx files now that we have iterators ?
On Monday, February 6, 2012 7:22:46 PM UTC+8, Nathann Cohen wrote: > > > Please stop spreading such paranoid rumours. Nathann didn't look at your > > patch, there is nothing to suggest he "refused to" or even that about > you. > Paranoia is a local favourite kind of illness... Sorry. Perhaps even contagious. :) > Ahem. There actually is no patch on the ticket, as Dima waits for me to > write it. > > The point is that I am at Cernay with the combinat team and already spent > several hours trying to write it. It involves messing with categories and > coercion as the <= and >= operators of the symbolic variables I use are > overridden by Sage's coercion system. I do not know how to solve it for the > moment and decided to do more rewarding things (than fighting with > exceptions I do not understand) in the meantime. > well, sure, it's not such a big rush - but at least this needs to be documented. I cc:'d you on another LP-related ticket that is more fun :) > > Dima, feel free to give it a try too ! > I wish I could feel free now :-) > > Nathann -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: VirtualBox
I have little experience with pyqt, and i am not sure that would be the way to go. A windows user that would want to use a pyqt program would need to have installed in his system: python, pyqt and qt. The offline windows installer of qt is 1.3 gigs. That's overkill for a simple gui app. There must be a simpler way to do it. I haven't used pyside, but for what i see in the documentation, it follows the same approach than pyqt. On 6 feb, 12:22, Keshav Kini wrote: > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 17:20, Emil Widmann wrote: > > I think the unionfs is a well tested technology now, but a clean > > solution would be that in case of such an replacement/upgrade of the > > sage squashfs the whole sage directory tree in the save directory is > > deleted too - then the user starts with a "fresh" install. > > That's what I think too, but it disagrees with the current behavior of > `sage -upgrade`, which tries to merge any committed changes into the > new version you're upgrading to. That doesn't make sense IMO but there > you are. > > > Sounds great! > > This could be just a small application in the beginning with the sage > > logo and a start button , but can be expanded later. > > I am not sure if it is necessary to write this in python - that is > > another dependency. > > Why not use VBscript or precompile it? Distribution of binaries on > > windows should be no problem. > > Python programs can be made into Windows binaries with py2exe_, a > distutils extension. GUIs can be made relatively easily with PySide_, > or so I've heard - haven't gotten around to trying it myself yet. > > .. _py2exe:http://py2exe.org/ > .. _PySide:http://pyside.org/ > > I wonder why you suggest using VBscript. It's not exactly a majority / > serious language among Windows developers as I recall and certainly > nobody on Mac or Linux uses it. I think we should stick to Python if > possible for widest familiarity among our developers. Maybe you just > meant that it is a built-in scripting language in Windows, which is > true, but as you said, there's no problem in shipping binaries for > Windows. > > -Keshav > > > Join us in #sagemath on irc.freenode.net ! -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: VirtualBox
> A launcher written in Python could be used on other OS'es, too. good point > VBscript is an ugly abomination, nobody in his right mind will voluntarily > use it. Lots of people (windows folks) use it even voluntarily - I will not speculate on their (or my) state of mind ... >Not to mention that we have lots of people with Python skills. good point My first thought was it might be overkill to ship a complete programming language and a Gui frontend for the sake of writing a small launcher application (or "rewrite" parts of the VirtualBox control GUI). But OK, this goes into the same line as the "size of the VM" discussion - I won't argue about pulling in additional 1 or 2 MB's ;-). For anybody interested, this is the code (VBscript ) of the NSIS Sage- Virtualbox Windows installer. http://boxen.math.washington.edu/home/emil/Win-Inst/SageWinInstBuildDir/main.nsi It mostly brings up some Messageboxes or calls VBoxManage with "ExecWait", no rocket science involved. So it might be an abomination but one could manage. -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] Re: Should we slowly move the .py files to .pyx files now that we have iterators ?
> Please stop spreading such paranoid rumours. Nathann didn't look at your > patch, there is nothing to suggest he "refused to" or even that about you. Ahem. There actually is no patch on the ticket, as Dima waits for me to write it. The point is that I am at Cernay with the combinat team and already spent several hours trying to write it. It involves messing with categories and coercion as the <= and >= operators of the symbolic variables I use are overridden by Sage's coercion system. I do not know how to solve it for the moment and decided to do more rewarding things (than fighting with exceptions I do not understand) in the meantime. Dima, feel free to give it a try too ! Nathann -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] Re: VirtualBox
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 17:20, Emil Widmann wrote: > I think the unionfs is a well tested technology now, but a clean > solution would be that in case of such an replacement/upgrade of the > sage squashfs the whole sage directory tree in the save directory is > deleted too - then the user starts with a "fresh" install. That's what I think too, but it disagrees with the current behavior of `sage -upgrade`, which tries to merge any committed changes into the new version you're upgrading to. That doesn't make sense IMO but there you are. > Sounds great! > This could be just a small application in the beginning with the sage > logo and a start button , but can be expanded later. > I am not sure if it is necessary to write this in python - that is > another dependency. > Why not use VBscript or precompile it? Distribution of binaries on > windows should be no problem. Python programs can be made into Windows binaries with py2exe_, a distutils extension. GUIs can be made relatively easily with PySide_, or so I've heard - haven't gotten around to trying it myself yet. .. _py2exe: http://py2exe.org/ .. _PySide: http://pyside.org/ I wonder why you suggest using VBscript. It's not exactly a majority / serious language among Windows developers as I recall and certainly nobody on Mac or Linux uses it. I think we should stick to Python if possible for widest familiarity among our developers. Maybe you just meant that it is a built-in scripting language in Windows, which is true, but as you said, there's no problem in shipping binaries for Windows. -Keshav Join us in #sagemath on irc.freenode.net ! -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: VirtualBox
On Monday, February 6, 2012 1:20:13 AM UTC-8, Emil Widmann wrote: > > Why not use VBscript or precompile it? Distribution of binaries on > windows should be no problem. > A launcher written in Python could be used on other OS'es, too. And VBscript is an ugly abomination, nobody in his right mind will voluntarily use it. Not to mention that we have lots of people with Python skills. -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: VirtualBox
@mmarco >I use unionfs to mix the squashed filesystem with a directory to save >the changes. Maybe that would be a source of errors if somebody makes >changes in his sage directory and then upgrade by replacing the >compressed file. I think the unionfs is a well tested technology now, but a clean solution would be that in case of such an replacement/upgrade of the sage squashfs the whole sage directory tree in the save directory is deleted too - then the user starts with a "fresh" install. > > I was recently thinking about our options for a Sage launcher program This > > would be a relatively small program that controls VirtualBox, hiding the > > normal VirtualBox gui. This is pretty easy using the VBoxManage utility. The > > Sage launcher program could then > > * download new Virtual Machines if necessary > > * let the user choose between different versions of the Sage VM > > * diagnose port / firewall issues > > * automatically export notebooks from the VM using a bundled ssh client > > * write the launcher in Python (which we also include) using some Python > > GUI toolkit (included, too) Sounds great! This could be just a small application in the beginning with the sage logo and a start button , but can be expanded later. I am not sure if it is necessary to write this in python - that is another dependency. Why not use VBscript or precompile it? Distribution of binaries on windows should be no problem. > Big +1. > > I'm curious if anybody else has ever written such a program for > another project? If anybody out there is particularly good at > searching for such things, could you look? It's not inconceivable > there's something out there we can learn from. > > -- william Essentially the documentation of the vboxmanage command shows, that a very detailed control of the VM is possible. As an example the commands "VBoxManage controlvm setlinkstate/ nic" lets you switch on/off network or switch to different network types like "nat/bridged" Or the command "VBoxManage guestcontrol execute" lets you start programs on the guest from the hostmachine. As I am on it let me share some thoughts - some of those may be in the category "premature optimization", but just ignore those you don't like: Autoimport of virtual machines "ovas" is possible, however it might be worth considering to not "import" machines, but to create the VM at runtime and attach the VM on premade bootable vdi harddisk. Advantages: it is possible to create the machine according to the host specs (memory, processor). Attaching disks is much faster than importing ovas (can take minutes). Disadvantage: Autoimport ova is tested - autocreation of VM and attaching of virtual disk is not coded and not tested (maybe 20 lines of VBScript code) Set the Virtual machine Folder to a path where all users can reach the sage VM . Currently the Virtualbox default is to store the ova in the user space, so other accounts cannot use the sage VM. We had at least one support/ask sage question about this. A possible solution would be to have the Virtual Machine available public, but use VBoxManage / Guestadditions to mirror an unique .sage folder in each user directory. The hardware specs of the host machine (processor) are mapped to the VirtualBox - so what policy should apply here? - There could be 1 minimal machine which was compiled for low specs (32 bit, FAT_BINARIES, 1 processor ...), so that it should run on widest range of possible hardware. And maybe a 64bit version with complete modern processor instruction set and more turbo specs available. I found the following links: http://www.virtualbox.org/manual/ch08.html Example GUI: https://github.com/c0state/VirtualBox-Snapshot-Deletion-GUI web interface: http://code.google.com/p/phpvirtualbox/ commercial: http://onapp.com/cloud/how-it-works/control-panel/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VBScript Python Compiler(?): http://nuitka.net/blog/ VirtualBox/Multiuser environment: http://vu1tur.eu.org/vboxctrl cheers -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] use "./configure; make" for Sage?
On 2012-02-06 09:33, Dr. David Kirkby wrote: > I think trying to replicate autotools would be just silly. That's what PARI tried and they are probably the spkg with the *most* patches to the configuration system. -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] use "./configure; make" for Sage?
On 02/ 6/12 08:17 AM, Julien Puydt wrote: Le Mon, 06 Feb 2012 07:58:28 +, "Dr. David Kirkby" a écrit : It must be said, writing configure.ac makefile.am is not the easiest task - the language is not as intuitive as some. But it does work well, if implemented properly. It is indeed not trivial, but doable, and in any case : (1) trying to replicate the autotools won't be easier than just using them ; (2) trying to replicate the autotools would mean you lose the experience gained by their developpers (autotools cover a lot of terrible situations...) ; (3) trying to replicate the autotools would mean you take the burden of maintenance instead of their developpers ; (4) using the autotools there is documentation out there (real-world examples, books, forums, irc channels) ; (5) using the autotools there are people with experience with it out there which could lend a hand. Snark on #sagemath I agree with all of them. I would add, the autoconf mailing list is very active, and questions are answered timely. I think trying to replicate autotools would be just silly. -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] use "./configure; make" for Sage?
On 2012-02-05 22:23, John H Palmieri wrote: > [ ] Switch to autoconf > [ ] Keep the current build system [X] In theory, autoconf is a good idea. But regarding the build system, I think there are other priorities for the moment. -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] use "./configure; make" for Sage?
Le Mon, 06 Feb 2012 07:58:28 +, "Dr. David Kirkby" a écrit : > It must be said, writing configure.ac makefile.am is not the easiest > task - the language is not as intuitive as some. But it does work > well, if implemented properly. It is indeed not trivial, but doable, and in any case : (1) trying to replicate the autotools won't be easier than just using them ; (2) trying to replicate the autotools would mean you lose the experience gained by their developpers (autotools cover a lot of terrible situations...) ; (3) trying to replicate the autotools would mean you take the burden of maintenance instead of their developpers ; (4) using the autotools there is documentation out there (real-world examples, books, forums, irc channels) ; (5) using the autotools there are people with experience with it out there which could lend a hand. Snark on #sagemath -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] [ARM] The failed numerical tests only show the tests are bad!
Le Sun, 5 Feb 2012 20:03:48 -0800, Jonathan Bober a écrit : > The source code does say: > >In extensive but non-exhaustive >random tests, this function proved accurate to within <= 10 ulps > across the >entire float domain. Note that accuracy may depend on the quality > of the system math functions, the pow function in particular. > > So if the accuracy of pow() in eglicb relies on long doubles, then > there may be a problem, but maybe it will work well there. Within 10 ulp? Look at the comment at the start of [1], where they explain how they compute things, then explain the accuracy: * Accuracy: Gamma(x) is accurate to within * x > 0: error provably < 0.9ulp. * Maximum observed in 1,000,000 trials was .87ulp. * x < 0: * Maximum observed error < 4ulp in 1,000,000 trials. This looks pretty good! Snark on #sagemath [1] http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/lib/libm/noieee_src/n_gamma.c -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] use "./configure; make" for Sage?
On Sun, 5 Feb 2012 13:23:19 -0800 (PST) John H Palmieri wrote: > Various aspects of building Sage might be cleaner if we used autoconf: > > ./configure OPTIONS > make > > OPTIONS could include a location to install Sage, various flags for > building ATLAS, and other options which we currently control by > setting environment variables. For typical users, we should aim for > > ./configure > make > > to work. We should also continue to use the current environment > variables--no need to remove them, just provide another way of > setting them. Should we vote? > > [ ] Switch to autoconf > [ ] Keep the current build system There was a similar discussion earlier: http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/t/b2ece135b42b5d98 The SEP Ralf wrote is also mentioned in that thread: http://wiki.sagemath.org/AutoToolsSEP IMHO, moving the checks from prereq to a top level configure file makes sense. I used a waf script to handle this in lmonade: https://bitbucket.org/burcin/lmnd-prefix/src/tip/scripts/wscript Cheers, Burcin -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
Re: [sage-devel] use "./configure; make" for Sage?
On 02/ 5/12 09:36 PM, William Stein wrote: An intermediate option might be of interest to people who have actually tried to write build systems using autoconf, a.k.a., "autohell": I think "autohell" happens when you can't be bothered to read the documentation and examples. The syntax is not the easiest, but nor is particularly difficult if you read the manual. dave -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URL: http://www.sagemath.org
