Re: [sage-devel] git and patchbot
Oh, one more prerequisite: we need to populate the commit field on trac (preferably automatically) so the patchbot can tell when a commit gets out of date. Alternatively, perhaps there's a way to query the commit a branch points to via http without having to fetch it? - Robert On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Robert Bradshaw rober...@gmail.com wrote: No. It's mostly done; I set out to finish it up just a couple of days ago (but ran into a bunch of other issues trying to figure out what branch to build, merge into, and the fact that tests didn't even all pass in the git branch). Actually being able to pull, build, and pass tests is a prerequisite; there are tickets out for this (#15120 and #14968) that need to be merged. On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 4:41 AM, Frédéric Chapoton fchapot...@gmail.comwrote: Hello, so far, the patchbot is not able to test the tickets given by a git branch (and it seems that it does not recognize the branch field) Would it be hard to get that working ? There are already several tickets with a git branch waiting for review (just one example #15054) Frederic -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[sage-devel] Graph neighbors slowdown - could it be caused by wrapping objects?
This is a follow up of the thread [1] in which we noticed that there is a substantial performance issue in the Graph.neighbors method. The point of this thread is mainly to draw your attention and perhaps spot what is causing the described issue. As it turns out our default graph backend is actually quite efficient and the slowdown appears to be caused by wrapping it up within higher level objects. Examples. sage: G = graphs.RandomBarabasiAlbert(1000,2) sage: %timeit E = [(u,v) for u in xrange(1000) for v in G.neighbor_iterator(u)] 100 loops, best of 3:* 4.64 ms* per loop What G.neighbors_iterator() *essentially* does is calls the out_neighbors() method in the SparseGraph backend. Calling this method directly is quite efficient : sage: %timeit E = [(u,v) for u in xrange(1000) for v in G._backend._cg.out_neighbors(u)] 1000 loops, best of 3:* 719 us* per loop As well as directly creating a SparseGraph object. sage: from sage.graphs.base.sparse_graph import SparseGraph sage: S = SparseGraph(1000) sage: for i,j in G.edges(labels=False): S.add_arc(i,j) sage: %timeit E = [(u,v) for u in xrange(1000) for v in S.out_neighbors(u)] 1000 loops, best of 3: *386 us* per loop In particular, the same slowdown happens if we use use the NetworkX backend for our Graph object. sage: H = G.networkx_graph() # this creates a NetworkX graph sage: %timeit EE = [(u,v) for u in xrange(1000) for v in H[u]] 1000 loops, best of 3: *636 us *per loop BUT sage: I = Graph(implementation='networkx') # this uses networkX as the graph backend for Graph sage: for i,j in G.edges(labels=False): I.add_edge(i,j) sage: %timeit EE = [(u,v) for u in xrange(1000) for v in I.neighbor_iterator(u)] 100 loops, best of 3: *2.03 ms* per loop The calling trace from Graph.neighbor_iterator to the point in the backend where neighbors are actually retrieved is quite simple and does not appear to cause the slowdown directly (though if it does you're wellcome to point to the specific section of the code in which the slowdon occurs) Instead it smells like there is some implicit overhead in wrapping objects like that. At this point we are quite desperate to spot the slowdown hence if you have *any* kind of suggestions at what to try or check, let us know in this thread! [1] Graph neighbours - room for huge performance boost, https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sage-devel/eWu_01zQNwM -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [sage-devel] git and patchbot
On Friday, August 30, 2013 8:48:04 AM UTC+1, Marc Mezzarobba wrote: Would git ls-remote be suitable? That just gives you the current branch head. In that case you can just fetch the branch and use whatever the current branch head is. This is probably what should happen if the Commit trac field has not been filled in: Use the current branch head, but show the yellow light to indicate that the Commit is not there so you don't know if thats really the commit to review. I can look into a receive hook for git that would automatically make changes to the Commit field, that ought to be easy enough. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: Re: [sage-devel] Re: use Sage!
Hi John, [sage-devel] awesome! I shall put what I have in a repository on bitbucket and you can then have a look to see what you think might need work etc.? I am somewhat hesitant, though, to go too deep into signature based algorithms and new improvements, this sounds more like research than an introduction using Sage? Cheers, Martin On Thursday 29 Aug 2013 20:53:32 you wrote: Martin I'd be willing to help with this. Aside from having worked with you on a couple of the programs, I've been working on resurrecting the dynamic algorithms of Caboara and Gritzmann and Sturmfels, using a new technique. I also have some stuff you could probably use for introductory material. The toy implementation shows some promise, even before tying it to signature techniques (which is planned) and would illustrate how Sage lets you tie symbolic numerical techniques together. The research led to a few bug fixes in the Mixed Integer Programming last year! :-) john perry On Thursday, August 29, 2013 4:18:11 AM UTC-5, Martin Albrecht wrote: On Wednesday 28 Aug 2013 11:17:10 Rob Beezer wrote: If you think this is a good project for the Sage community, then consider demonstrate the viability by volunteering as an author, editor, producer and/or manager of such an effort (in addition to those expressing interest already above). Hi all, fwiw I toyed with the idea of turning part 2 of my thesis which introduce Gröbner bases and algorithms for computing them using Sage into a stand-alone text. It could be expanded, for example I have toy implementations of F4, F5, F4/F5 and Matrix-F5 in Sage, all algorithms that people could benefit from playing around with to wrap their heads around them. However, since I am not a mathematician but a cryptographer with a computer science degree (I think that shows in the material) and I am still a mere postdoc, I think it would need a second author or so. Perhaps someone with a stronger background in commutative algebra could partner up with me. Just an idea to throw into the ring. Cheers, Martin -- name: Martin Albrecht _pgp: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6532AFB4 _otr: 47F43D1A 5D68C36F 468BAEBA 640E8856 D7951CCF _www: http://martinralbrecht.wordpress.com/ _jab: martinralbre...@jabber.ccc.de signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [sage-devel] Graph neighbors slowdown - could it be caused by wrapping objects?
For a quick summary, the current implementation of graphs is as follows: - there is a C backend which uses only integers as vertices. This version uses B-tree (which are written from scratch with some non optimizes routines, see in particular #14690) which allows dynamical graphs (ie adding/removing vertices and edges). - the graph we see from Sage stores a dictionnary (label) - (integer) to communicate with the C backend Actually, this is not quite True as there is an intermediate layer between those two to deal with graph vs digraph. Note that in order to enuerate the neighbors, there is no use of the dictionnary as we go in the other direction (integer) - (label) which is just a C array PythonObject **. This method conversion is moreover implemented in C and I guess that it is quite efficient (but I did not check that). Now, that being said there is some overhead in neighbors iteration as each layer actually build the list of neighbors and iterate through it. The main reason was because it was not possible to use iterator with Cython. I guess that neighbor iterations may be simplified in that direction but, if I remember well you tried it in #13730. One other option would be to pass the iteration of neighbor iteration to some level down in the hierarchy of backends. This, together with #14690, might be enough to get some speed up. Best Vincent 2013/8/30 Jernej Azarija azi.std...@gmail.com: This is a follow up of the thread [1] in which we noticed that there is a substantial performance issue in the Graph.neighbors method. The point of this thread is mainly to draw your attention and perhaps spot what is causing the described issue. As it turns out our default graph backend is actually quite efficient and the slowdown appears to be caused by wrapping it up within higher level objects. Examples. sage: G = graphs.RandomBarabasiAlbert(1000,2) sage: %timeit E = [(u,v) for u in xrange(1000) for v in G.neighbor_iterator(u)] 100 loops, best of 3: 4.64 ms per loop What G.neighbors_iterator() *essentially* does is calls the out_neighbors() method in the SparseGraph backend. Calling this method directly is quite efficient : sage: %timeit E = [(u,v) for u in xrange(1000) for v in G._backend._cg.out_neighbors(u)] 1000 loops, best of 3: 719 us per loop As well as directly creating a SparseGraph object. sage: from sage.graphs.base.sparse_graph import SparseGraph sage: S = SparseGraph(1000) sage: for i,j in G.edges(labels=False): S.add_arc(i,j) sage: %timeit E = [(u,v) for u in xrange(1000) for v in S.out_neighbors(u)] 1000 loops, best of 3: 386 us per loop In particular, the same slowdown happens if we use use the NetworkX backend for our Graph object. sage: H = G.networkx_graph() # this creates a NetworkX graph sage: %timeit EE = [(u,v) for u in xrange(1000) for v in H[u]] 1000 loops, best of 3: 636 us per loop BUT sage: I = Graph(implementation='networkx') # this uses networkX as the graph backend for Graph sage: for i,j in G.edges(labels=False): I.add_edge(i,j) sage: %timeit EE = [(u,v) for u in xrange(1000) for v in I.neighbor_iterator(u)] 100 loops, best of 3: 2.03 ms per loop The calling trace from Graph.neighbor_iterator to the point in the backend where neighbors are actually retrieved is quite simple and does not appear to cause the slowdown directly (though if it does you're wellcome to point to the specific section of the code in which the slowdon occurs) Instead it smells like there is some implicit overhead in wrapping objects like that. At this point we are quite desperate to spot the slowdown hence if you have *any* kind of suggestions at what to try or check, let us know in this thread! [1] Graph neighbours - room for huge performance boost, https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sage-devel/eWu_01zQNwM -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: Re: [sage-devel] Re: use Sage!
Hi all, it’s here: https://bitbucket.org/malb/sage-gb-book Cheers, Martin On Thursday 29 Aug 2013 20:53:32 john_perry_usm wrote: Martin I'd be willing to help with this. Aside from having worked with you on a couple of the programs, I've been working on resurrecting the dynamic algorithms of Caboara and Gritzmann and Sturmfels, using a new technique. I also have some stuff you could probably use for introductory material. The toy implementation shows some promise, even before tying it to signature techniques (which is planned) and would illustrate how Sage lets you tie symbolic numerical techniques together. The research led to a few bug fixes in the Mixed Integer Programming last year! :-) john perry On Thursday, August 29, 2013 4:18:11 AM UTC-5, Martin Albrecht wrote: On Wednesday 28 Aug 2013 11:17:10 Rob Beezer wrote: If you think this is a good project for the Sage community, then consider demonstrate the viability by volunteering as an author, editor, producer and/or manager of such an effort (in addition to those expressing interest already above). Hi all, fwiw I toyed with the idea of turning part 2 of my thesis which introduce Gröbner bases and algorithms for computing them using Sage into a stand-alone text. It could be expanded, for example I have toy implementations of F4, F5, F4/F5 and Matrix-F5 in Sage, all algorithms that people could benefit from playing around with to wrap their heads around them. However, since I am not a mathematician but a cryptographer with a computer science degree (I think that shows in the material) and I am still a mere postdoc, I think it would need a second author or so. Perhaps someone with a stronger background in commutative algebra could partner up with me. Just an idea to throw into the ring. Cheers, Martin -- name: Martin Albrecht _pgp: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6532AFB4 _otr: 47F43D1A 5D68C36F 468BAEBA 640E8856 D7951CCF _www: http://martinralbrecht.wordpress.com/ _jab: martinralbre...@jabber.ccc.de signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
[sage-devel] Re: Graph neighbours - room for huge performance boost
FYI, often I will first convert a graph to a list of bitsets representing the neighbors, then I use Cython to access the bitsets for really fast access. Wayyy later : you may like patch #14589 ! Nathann -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[sage-devel] Re: Hashing elements from the same ring
On Thursday, August 29, 2013 12:54:02 PM UTC-4, Nils Bruin wrote: On Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:52:02 AM UTC-7, Simon King wrote: Hi Stefan, On 2013-08-29, Stefan stefan...@gmail.com wrote: Actually, this is not quite true. reduce() is, by default, called automatically for elements of exact rings at creation time. It will correctly get rid of common factors, but it does not normalize the leading coefficients: Bad. But of course, it is all only defined up to units. On the other hand, in a lot of cases there are ways of normalizing, such as making the leading coefficient of the denominator monic. There are also many fields where there is no GCD, but a denominator can still be uniquely defined: think number fields and function fields that are a finite extension of a rational function field. I suspect avoiding normalization is only seemingly a saving: When you start adding elements together, you'll quickly see things explode if you're not normalizing fractions. Of course, keeping elements in product form can be a very large saving if you really need to compute in the multiplicative group of the function field, so there is room for using multiple internal representations of elements. So I'd say: equip domains with an optional normalize_fraction routine that normalizes a tuple (N,D) to (N',D') with a unique denominator D'. If that method is available, use it (always!) in FractionField and make elements hashable. I like this solution! Maybe I'll get around to working on it soon(ish). --Stefan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: use Sage!
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 8:40 AM, Jason Grout
jason-s...@creativetrax.com wrote:
On 8/30/13 5:53 AM, Martin Albrecht wrote:
Hi all,
it’s here: https://bitbucket.org/malb/sage-gb-book
Also, you could create a project on cloud.sagemath.com and collaboratively
edit the textbook right there. Live, real-time. And push changes back to
bitbucket. And have automatic side-by-side pdf previews, which include
sagetex output.
The book is in several different files and my implementation isn't
perfect (yet) in the case of multiple files (so watch out -- that
said, this could be a good sample input for dealing with multiple
files). That said, I don't know how to build the book.
pdflatex sage-gb-book.tex
Error with minionpro, and I see
% I really like MinionPro but you can comment this out if it causes problems:
% http://carlo-hamalainen.net/blog/2007/12/11/installing-minion-pro-fonts
\usepackage{MinionPro}
so I comment out it, since MinionPro isn't in Ubuntu (even the latest
13.10 as far as I can tell), and installing it involves a bunch of
steps. I tried commenting out that line and...
pdflatex sage-gb-book.tex
l.1 \chapter
{Introduction} [1]
Chapter 1.
! Undefined control sequence.
argument \mathbb
{F}
l.8 \item $\F
$ is a field, not necessarily algebraically closed. $\overline{...
Martin, how is one supposed to build your book?
Just an idea
Thanks,
Jason
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
sage-devel group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
--
William Stein
Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
sage-devel group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[sage-devel] Sage GB Book
Hi John,
On Friday 30 Aug 2013 08:32:39 john_perry_usm wrote:
Martin
Maybe one of us misunderstands the other ( maybe this should become a new
thread? dunno).
I am somewhat hesitant, though, to go too deep into signature based
algorithms
and new improvements...
It was not my intention to go deep into signature based algorithms; I was
trying to qualify the dynamic algorithm as not being signature based. As it
dates from 1993, it's much older than F5 variants. There's no need to put
the newer stuff in there, but I was thinking the dynamic algorithm would be
useful in a text that introduces to Sage, as an illustration of how to make
two very different parts work together (MILP and Singular). If you think
otherwise, okay.
ah, gotcha! Sorry for the confusion, yep, this makes sense!
Out of curiosity, though, what do you think is wrong with the mathematical
aspect? Did you have specific applications to commutative algebra in mind?
If so, someone like Simon might be a better contributor.
I defined an environment called citeproof, which prints
Proof: See \cite{some reference}
“””
which is a good indication that I didn’t care about proofs too much, something
which should rub some people the wrong way. It’s strongly biased towards
intuitions about algorithms and applications in cryptography.
For example, I only talk about solving systems of equations. A proper text on
GBs should talk about commutative algebra problems more general I guess.
All in all, it’s not necessarily well rounded and might not be the text that
the Sage community expects when it hears Sage Book on Gröbner Bases.
Cheers,
Martin
--
name: Martin Albrecht
_pgp: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6532AFB4
_otr: 47F43D1A 5D68C36F 468BAEBA 640E8856 D7951CCF
_www: http://martinralbrecht.wordpress.com/
_jab: martinralbre...@jabber.ccc.de
signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
[sage-devel] Re: use Sage!
On 8/30/13 5:53 AM, Martin Albrecht wrote: Hi all, it’s here: https://bitbucket.org/malb/sage-gb-book Also, you could create a project on cloud.sagemath.com and collaboratively edit the textbook right there. Live, real-time. And push changes back to bitbucket. And have automatic side-by-side pdf previews, which include sagetex output. Just an idea Thanks, Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: Re: [sage-devel] Re: use Sage!
Martin Maybe one of us misunderstands the other ( maybe this should become a new thread? dunno). I am somewhat hesitant, though, to go too deep into signature based algorithms and new improvements... It was not my intention to go deep into signature based algorithms; I was trying to qualify the dynamic algorithm as not being signature based. As it dates from 1993, it's much older than F5 variants. There's no need to put the newer stuff in there, but I was thinking the dynamic algorithm would be useful in a text that introduces to Sage, as an illustration of how to make two very different parts work together (MILP and Singular). If you think otherwise, okay. Out of curiosity, though, what do you think is wrong with the mathematical aspect? Did you have specific applications to commutative algebra in mind? If so, someone like Simon might be a better contributor. john perry -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: [sage-devel] Re: use Sage!
Hi all,
seems like my environment is very very forgiving. I missed amsmath and amssym.
I’ve just committed a new version which should compile in standard
environments.
Cheers,
Martin
On Friday 30 Aug 2013 09:13:02 William Stein wrote:
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 8:40 AM, Jason Grout
jason-s...@creativetrax.com wrote:
On 8/30/13 5:53 AM, Martin Albrecht wrote:
Hi all,
it’s here: https://bitbucket.org/malb/sage-gb-book
Also, you could create a project on cloud.sagemath.com and collaboratively
edit the textbook right there. Live, real-time. And push changes back to
bitbucket. And have automatic side-by-side pdf previews, which include
sagetex output.
Btw. I tend to work while offline quite a bit (I have a very long commute
involving planes and international borders) so cloud.sagemath.org doesn’t seem
like the right environment for *me*. Yet, if people want to collaborate there
that shouldn’t affect them.
The book is in several different files and my implementation isn't
perfect (yet) in the case of multiple files (so watch out -- that
said, this could be a good sample input for dealing with multiple
files). That said, I don't know how to build the book.
pdflatex sage-gb-book.tex
Error with minionpro, and I see
% I really like MinionPro but you can comment this out if it causes
problems: %
http://carlo-hamalainen.net/blog/2007/12/11/installing-minion-pro-fonts
\usepackage{MinionPro}
so I comment out it, since MinionPro isn't in Ubuntu (even the latest
13.10 as far as I can tell), and installing it involves a bunch of
steps. I tried commenting out that line and...
pdflatex sage-gb-book.tex
l.1 \chapter
{Introduction} [1]
Chapter 1.
! Undefined control sequence.
argument \mathbb
{F}
l.8 \item $\F
$ is a field, not necessarily algebraically closed.
$\overline{...
Martin, how is one supposed to build your book?
Just an idea
Thanks,
Jason
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
sage-devel group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
--
name: Martin Albrecht
_pgp: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6532AFB4
_otr: 47F43D1A 5D68C36F 468BAEBA 640E8856 D7951CCF
_www: http://martinralbrecht.wordpress.com/
_jab: martinralbre...@jabber.ccc.de
signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [sage-devel] Magma
2013/8/30, William Stein wst...@gmail.com: On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 11:07 AM, XXX wrote: Hi William, I know you have had a long and interesting history with Magma. You're probably already aware of this but if you're not, apparently the Simons Foundation is now funding the distribution of Magma to qualified U.S.-based institutions: http://magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/magma/simons/ Whether that means anything in regards to more competition for Sage, I don't know. At least that might mean more U.S.-based developers could use it to maybe compare any computational differences between Sage and Magma and work on improving the Sage code even more? Whaow! Sadly, I think the only impact will be to reduce Sage development activities and interest in using Sage. This could thus harm options for researchers outside the US. Access and price is a big motivating factor for people using Sage, with Sage being open source often a secondary criterion.I hope I'm wrong. There is something else in which Sage is better than other software: contribution of users. I had a little background in programming (and all mathemtical software available on my computers) when I started to use Sage. Quickly I was able to produce a patch which turns out to be integrated in Sage few months later. That to say: my code is reviewed and always up to date even if I do not use it. Moreover, when I will use it again it will be better because of other's contributions. I think this is a strong avantage of Sage. The other pro I see is the community of users. Though, I do not know how is it with Magma. Last summer, I participated in a roundtable discussion at the Simons Foundation in New York City, which was billed as being about encouraging the development of open source math and physics software. The room was full of representatives of various such open source projects. We came up with ideas and discussed things all day. At the end of the day Simons came in, demonstrated a lack of knowledge about open source software and unfortunately wasn't very interested in listening to us, then said their (clearly pre-determined) plan was to make Magma free to US institutions and also maybe have a software prize. He can of course do whatever he wants with his power.But the overall experience was *extraordinarily* frustrating (for me, and probably others in the room), and prompted me to start work to create a company to eventually earn money, which can be used to fund Sage development. That's what https://cloud.sagemath.com is about. I think that the Magma exclusiveness proposed by the Simons foundation is much more nocive than the fact they do not support an open software... Cheers Vincent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[sage-devel] Magma
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 11:07 AM, XXX wrote: Hi William, I know you have had a long and interesting history with Magma. You're probably already aware of this but if you're not, apparently the Simons Foundation is now funding the distribution of Magma to qualified U.S.-based institutions: http://magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/magma/simons/ Whether that means anything in regards to more competition for Sage, I don't know. At least that might mean more U.S.-based developers could use it to maybe compare any computational differences between Sage and Magma and work on improving the Sage code even more? Sadly, I think the only impact will be to reduce Sage development activities and interest in using Sage. This could thus harm options for researchers outside the US. Access and price is a big motivating factor for people using Sage, with Sage being open source often a secondary criterion.I hope I'm wrong. Last summer, I participated in a roundtable discussion at the Simons Foundation in New York City, which was billed as being about encouraging the development of open source math and physics software. The room was full of representatives of various such open source projects. We came up with ideas and discussed things all day. At the end of the day Simons came in, demonstrated a lack of knowledge about open source software and unfortunately wasn't very interested in listening to us, then said their (clearly pre-determined) plan was to make Magma free to US institutions and also maybe have a software prize. He can of course do whatever he wants with his power.But the overall experience was *extraordinarily* frustrating (for me, and probably others in the room), and prompted me to start work to create a company to eventually earn money, which can be used to fund Sage development. That's what https://cloud.sagemath.com is about. - William -- William Stein Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [sage-devel] Magma
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 2:44 PM, William Stein wst...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 11:07 AM, XXX wrote: Hi William, I know you have had a long and interesting history with Magma. You're probably already aware of this but if you're not, apparently the Simons Foundation is now funding the distribution of Magma to qualified U.S.-based institutions: http://magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/magma/simons/ Whether that means anything in regards to more competition for Sage, I don't know. At least that might mean more U.S.-based developers could use it to maybe compare any computational differences between Sage and Magma and work on improving the Sage code even more? Sadly, I think the only impact will be to reduce Sage development activities and interest in using Sage. This could thus harm options for researchers outside the US. Access and price is a big motivating factor for people using Sage, with Sage being open source often a secondary criterion.I hope I'm wrong. My 2 cents: Magma is losing customers left and right and IMHO this will have little impact. You know more than I do about this, but my feeling is the number of people who need Magma vs Sage is getting smaller every day. I think Matlab is more of a worry. If Simons were to give away lifetime free copies of Matlab (with the symbolic toolkit) to everyone in the US, I think it would be very hard for Sage to get traction at the university level. Last summer, I participated in a roundtable discussion at the Simons Foundation in New York City, which was billed as being about encouraging the development of open source math and physics software. The room was full of representatives of various such open source projects. We came up with ideas and discussed things all day. At the end of the day Simons came in, demonstrated a lack of knowledge about open source software and unfortunately wasn't very interested in listening to us, then said their (clearly pre-determined) plan was to make Magma free to US institutions and also maybe have a software prize. He can of course do whatever he wants with his power.But the overall experience was *extraordinarily* frustrating (for me, and probably others in the room), and prompted me to start work to create a company to eventually earn money, which can be used to fund Sage development. That's what https://cloud.sagemath.com is about. - William -- William Stein Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [sage-devel] Magma
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 1:35 PM, David Joyner wdjoy...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 2:44 PM, William Stein wst...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 11:07 AM, XXX wrote: Hi William, I know you have had a long and interesting history with Magma. You're probably already aware of this but if you're not, apparently the Simons Foundation is now funding the distribution of Magma to qualified U.S.-based institutions: http://magma.maths.usyd.edu.au/magma/simons/ Whether that means anything in regards to more competition for Sage, I don't know. At least that might mean more U.S.-based developers could use it to maybe compare any computational differences between Sage and Magma and work on improving the Sage code even more? Sadly, I think the only impact will be to reduce Sage development activities and interest in using Sage. This could thus harm options for researchers outside the US. Access and price is a big motivating factor for people using Sage, with Sage being open source often a secondary criterion.I hope I'm wrong. My 2 cents: Magma is losing customers left and right and IMHO this will have little impact. You know more than I do about this, but my feeling is the number of people who need Magma vs Sage is getting smaller every day. I think Matlab is more of a worry. If Simons were to give away lifetime free copies of Matlab (with the symbolic toolkit) to everyone in the US, I think it would be very hard for Sage to get traction at the university level. True regarding Matlab -- in fact, it is already very hard for the scientific python community to get traction against Matlab at the University level, though I'm very impressed with the progress they have made so far. And since we're talking about foundations and their money here, it's worth pointing out that the situation regarding numerical computing is different -- indeed, the Sloane Foundation recently put very substantial monetary support behind development of the scientific Python stack (organized around IPython), which is really awesome. William -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[sage-devel] Re: Magma
On 8/30/13 3:41 PM, William Stein wrote: True regarding Matlab -- in fact, it is already very hard for the scientific python community to get traction against Matlab at the University level, though I'm very impressed with the progress they have made so far. And since we're talking about foundations and their money here, it's worth pointing out that the situation regarding numerical computing is different -- indeed, the Sloane Foundation recently put very substantial monetary support behind development of the scientific Python stack (organized around IPython), which is really awesome. And not just Sloan. Travis Oliphant et. al. got the $3 million DARPA grant for moving forward the scientific python stack: http://www.continuum.io/press/continuum-receives-darpa-xdata-funding Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[sage-devel] Re: Magma
On 8/30/13 3:35 PM, David Joyner wrote: On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 2:44 PM, William Stein wst...@gmail.com wrote: My 2 cents: Magma is losing customers left and right and IMHO this will have little impact. You know more than I do about this, but my feeling is the number of people who need Magma vs Sage is getting smaller every day. I think Matlab is more of a worry. If Simons were to give away lifetime free copies of Matlab (with the symbolic toolkit) to everyone in the US, I think it would be very hard for Sage to get traction at the university level. We should tell Simons that it's a lot cheaper to give away free lifetime copies of Sage and R :). (I'm sure William already told them this...) I'm not sure that we're making huge inroads into the Matlab market anyway, but our university presence does seem to be growing. I think we're seen more as Mathematica, Maple, and Magma alternatives than a Matlab alternative at this point. The numpy/scipy/matlab/ipython combination is probably making a lot more inroads into the matlab-using crowd than we are. Thanks, Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: Magma
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Jason Grout jason-s...@creativetrax.com wrote: On 8/30/13 3:35 PM, David Joyner wrote: On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 2:44 PM, William Stein wst...@gmail.com wrote: My 2 cents: Magma is losing customers left and right and IMHO this will have little impact. You know more than I do about this, but my feeling is the number of people who need Magma vs Sage is getting smaller every day. I think Matlab is more of a worry. If Simons were to give away lifetime free copies of Matlab (with the symbolic toolkit) to everyone in the US, I think it would be very hard for Sage to get traction at the university level. We should tell Simons that it's a lot cheaper to give away free lifetime copies of Sage and R :). (I'm sure William already told them this...) I'm not sure that we're making huge inroads into the Matlab market anyway, but our university presence does seem to be growing. I think we're seen more as Mathematica, Maple, and Magma alternatives than a Matlab alternative at this point. The numpy/scipy/matlab/ipython combination is probably making a lot more inroads into the matlab-using crowd than we are. One thing is that with https://cloud.sagemath.com, which is a bit different than Sage proper, I'm hoping to do everything I can to fully support the numpy/scipy/matlab/ipython combination online... and Sage will just happen to be trivially available.I'm working hard right now on ipython notebook integration. William Thanks, Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- William Stein Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: Magma
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Jason Grout jason-s...@creativetrax.com wrote: On 8/30/13 3:41 PM, William Stein wrote: True regarding Matlab -- in fact, it is already very hard for the scientific python community to get traction against Matlab at the University level, though I'm very impressed with the progress they have made so far. And since we're talking about foundations and their money here, it's worth pointing out that the situation regarding numerical computing is different -- indeed, the Sloane Foundation recently put very substantial monetary support behind development of the scientific Python stack (organized around IPython), which is really awesome. And not just Sloan. Travis Oliphant et. al. got the $3 million DARPA grant for moving forward the scientific python stack: http://www.continuum.io/press/continuum-receives-darpa-xdata-funding Jason Yes, indeed, scientific computing using Python has a very bright future! William -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- William Stein Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
