[sage-devel] Re: Remove "A Tour of Sage"

[Simon King]

On 2015-01-13, Volker Braun  wrote:
> On Monday, January 12, 2015 at 7:16:23 PM UTC+1, Simon King wrote:
>>
>> If its purpose is to explain Sage for those who know other CAS, somehow 
>> explaining the differences and common points between various Ma* and 
>> Sage, then it should perhaps be kept under a different name?
>
>
> A First Taste of Sage? 

For example. Or: "Sage for the impatient". "Sage in a nutshell".

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Sage dev scripts

[Robert Bradshaw]

On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 3:00 AM, Simon King  wrote:
> Hi!
>
> On 2015-01-11, Nils Bruin  wrote:
>> On Sunday, January 11, 2015 at 12:54:56 AM UTC-8, Martin von Gagern wrote:
>>>
>>> On 11.01.2015 09:38, Robert Bradshaw wrote:
>>> > Hopefully it's becoming stable enough that
>>> > we should start shipping it as part of Sage?
>>>
>>> At first I thought so, too. But now I'm no longer sure: if you ship it
>>> with Sage, then it will be difficult to use it if you want to work with
>>> a patch from an older branch.
>>
>>
>> So we should *ship* it with sage but not *use* it yet. In a year or so,
>> git-trac will have been stable enough for long enough that most people can
>> start using the version shipped with sage, because any branch they meet
>> will have about the same git-trac.
>
> Or: We should ship it with Sage, but it should live in a repository that
> is independent of the rest of Sage. Hence, if one works on an old branch
> of Sage, git-trac would still be available.

Yes, I meant that it should be an spkg. You can install it in old
sage's, you can have a different version, but at least you get some
version by default.

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Re: [sage-devel] reducing upstream tarballs in a reproducible way

[Nils Bruin]

On Monday, January 12, 2015 at 4:13:33 PM UTC-8, François wrote:
>
> I agree with you that it is not deterministic. What is really important is 
> that the 
> checksums and the tarball come from a source you trust and are in 
> agreement. 
>

The checksum of the file itself is simply a way of establishing that the 
*file* is bitwise identical to your reference copy. 
 

> It is a simple security measure and I am not sure there is value in making 
> it 
> deterministic. I have a feeling that if you want to do that we may have to 
> change 
> packaging tool radically. 
>

It actually isn't, but computing the sum is very likely going to involve 
unpacking the archive, after which 
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1657232/how-can-i-calculate-an-md5-checksum-of-a-directory
 
might give you some ideas on how to get a "deterministic" checksum of a 
directory tree (there are more complications than one would expect 
initially!). There may be prepackaged solutions such as tarsum (I have no 
experience with that), but there are plenty of "one-liners" available, 
although they do stretch the concept of what a line is a bit.

Note that computing a checksum to compare two directory trees (or two tar 
files) only makes sense if they are sitting on separate systems and you 
can't afford sending one to the other. If you have the two trees readily 
available, you can just use the recursive features of diff to compare the 
trees.

You will have to choose how much of the meta-data you want to check. 
Modification dates and ownership are probably not relevant, but permissions 
possibly are. 

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[sage-devel] Re: Remove "A Tour of Sage"

[Volker Braun]

On Monday, January 12, 2015 at 7:16:23 PM UTC+1, Simon King wrote:
>
> If its purpose is to explain Sage for those who know other CAS, somehow 
> explaining the differences and common points between various Ma* and 
> Sage, then it should perhaps be kept under a different name?


A First Taste of Sage? 

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Re: [sage-devel] reducing upstream tarballs in a reproducible way

[Francois Bissey]

I agree with you that it is not deterministic. What is really important is that 
the
checksums and the tarball come from a source you trust and are in agreement.
It is a simple security measure and I am not sure there is value in making it
deterministic. I have a feeling that if you want to do that we may have to 
change
packaging tool radically.

François

> On 13/01/2015, at 12:24, mmarco  wrote:
> 
> If the problem is that packaging is not deterministic... what if we run the 
> hash check on the unpacked files instead of the tarball?
> 
> 
> El lunes, 12 de enero de 2015, 11:59:53 (UTC+1), Thierry 
> (sage-googlesucks@xxx) escribió:
> Hi, 
> 
> it is advised to distribute unmodified upstream tarball at much as 
> possible, so that the end-user should be able to check that the tarball 
> shipped by Sage has the same hash that upstreams. However, when size can 
> be reduced by a huge factor, integrity arguments become pretty weak and we 
> randomly upload hand-modified tarballs on tickets without a clear checking 
> process during the review process. 
> 
> In some cases, one possibility is to discuss with upstream to ship both 
> full and trimmed sources (which will benefit to other downstream, e.g. for 
> mathjax that can be considerably reduced while keeping all features). 
> 
> Another mid-term compromise could be to strip some few upstream source, 
> but in a checkable and reproducible manner, that is, with a spkg-src 
> script that will produce deterministic tarballs, so that anyone (in 
> particular the reviewer) can re-run the script and check the hashsums. By 
> default, tarballs are quite volatile because of timestamps and ownership, 
> also the file ordering seems to depend on the computer, the posix format 
> is nondeterministic, and i may have missed some other subtleties. 
> 
> In order to try such possibility on the next matplotlib update, could some 
> people (especially someone using OSX) give me (with minimal info on their 
> OS, arch, and tar --version) the result of: 
> 
> wget 
> https://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/matplotlib/matplotlib/matplotlib-1.4.2/matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.gz
>  
> tar xf matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.gz 
> rm -rf matplotlib-1.4.2/lib/matplotlib/tests/baseline_images/* 
> find matplotlib-1.4.2 | sort | tar --no-recursion -cj --format=gnu 
> --mtime='1970-01-01 01:00' --group=0 --owner=0 -f matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.bz2 -T 
> - 
> shasum matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.bz2 
> 
> Thanks, 
> Thierry 
> 
> 
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Re: [sage-devel] Build error for sage-6.4.1 in pynac-0.3.2

[Francois Bissey]

It looks like something has gone wrong with LD_LIBRARY_PATH & co. This means
that libstdc++ found when running sage is from older version of gcc than the 
one used 
to compile sage. Here you find libstdc++ from the system (gcc-4.3.4 I presume) 
rather
than whatever you used to compile. 
I assume you have a build environment that is different from the system one (I 
have at
least 5 on the local power7 cluster).

François
> On 13/01/2015, at 11:21, crooksc...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Setting the effective group to the same as the group on the build directory 
> did allow pynac to compile.  I am now stuck on an error in 
> conway_polynomials-0.4.p0.
> 
> ImportError: /usr/lib64/libstdc++.so.6: version `GLIBCXX_3.4.20' not found 
> (required by 
> /hpc/tstapps/src/sage/sage-6.4.1/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/matrix/matrix_modn_dense_float.so)
> 
> I have not had a chance to investigate, yet.  It may be a couple of days 
> before I can get back to this.
> 
> Cindy
> 
> 
> On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 1:43:22 PM UTC-6, crook...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am trying to compile sage-6.4.1 for one of my users.  I am working on a 
> SLES11 SP2 machine using gcc 4.9.2 and python 2.7.7.  I am using my personal 
> account and I own the build directory and all of the directories/files for 
> gcc and python.  I am still getting the following error:
> 
> checking for a version of Python >= '2.1.0'... sys:1: RuntimeWarning: not 
> adding
>  directory '' to sys.path since it's writable by an untrusted group.
> Untrusted users could put files in this directory which might then be 
> imported b
> y your Python code. As a general precaution from similar exploits, you should 
> no
> t execute Python code from this directory
> 
> I have attached the sage_pynac-0.3.2.log for you to review.  I have tried 
> looking through previous posts, but I don't see anything that quite matches 
> this situation.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help.
> 
> Cindy
> 
> On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 1:43:22 PM UTC-6, crook...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am trying to compile sage-6.4.1 for one of my users.  I am working on a 
> SLES11 SP2 machine using gcc 4.9.2 and python 2.7.7.  I am using my personal 
> account and I own the build directory and all of the directories/files for 
> gcc and python.  I am still getting the following error:
> 
> checking for a version of Python >= '2.1.0'... sys:1: RuntimeWarning: not 
> adding
>  directory '' to sys.path since it's writable by an untrusted group.
> Untrusted users could put files in this directory which might then be 
> imported b
> y your Python code. As a general precaution from similar exploits, you should 
> no
> t execute Python code from this directory
> 
> I have attached the sage_pynac-0.3.2.log for you to review.  I have tried 
> looking through previous posts, but I don't see anything that quite matches 
> this situation.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help.
> 
> Cindy
> 
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[sage-devel] Re: reducing upstream tarballs in a reproducible way

[mmarco]

If the problem is that packaging is not deterministic... what if we run the 
hash check on the unpacked files instead of the tarball?


El lunes, 12 de enero de 2015, 11:59:53 (UTC+1), Thierry 
(sage-googlesucks@xxx) escribió:
>
> Hi, 
>
> it is advised to distribute unmodified upstream tarball at much as 
> possible, so that the end-user should be able to check that the tarball 
> shipped by Sage has the same hash that upstreams. However, when size can 
> be reduced by a huge factor, integrity arguments become pretty weak and we 
> randomly upload hand-modified tarballs on tickets without a clear checking 
> process during the review process. 
>
> In some cases, one possibility is to discuss with upstream to ship both 
> full and trimmed sources (which will benefit to other downstream, e.g. for 
> mathjax that can be considerably reduced while keeping all features). 
>
> Another mid-term compromise could be to strip some few upstream source, 
> but in a checkable and reproducible manner, that is, with a spkg-src 
> script that will produce deterministic tarballs, so that anyone (in 
> particular the reviewer) can re-run the script and check the hashsums. By 
> default, tarballs are quite volatile because of timestamps and ownership, 
> also the file ordering seems to depend on the computer, the posix format 
> is nondeterministic, and i may have missed some other subtleties. 
>
> In order to try such possibility on the next matplotlib update, could some 
> people (especially someone using OSX) give me (with minimal info on their 
> OS, arch, and tar --version) the result of: 
>
> wget 
> https://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/matplotlib/matplotlib/matplotlib-1.4.2/matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.gz
>  
> tar xf matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.gz 
> rm -rf matplotlib-1.4.2/lib/matplotlib/tests/baseline_images/* 
> find matplotlib-1.4.2 | sort | tar --no-recursion -cj --format=gnu 
> --mtime='1970-01-01 01:00' --group=0 --owner=0 -f matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.bz2 
> -T - 
> shasum matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.bz2 
>
> Thanks, 
> Thierry 
>
>

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[sage-devel] Re: Build error for sage-6.4.1 in pynac-0.3.2

[crookscj02]

Setting the effective group to the same as the group on the build directory 
did allow pynac to compile.  I am now stuck on an error in 
conway_polynomials-0.4.p0.

ImportError: /usr/lib64/libstdc++.so.6: version `GLIBCXX_3.4.20' not found 
(required by 
/hpc/tstapps/src/sage/sage-6.4.1/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/matrix/matrix_modn_dense_float.so)

I have not had a chance to investigate, yet.  It may be a couple of days 
before I can get back to this.

Cindy


On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 1:43:22 PM UTC-6, crook...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I am trying to compile sage-6.4.1 for one of my users.  I am working on a 
> SLES11 SP2 machine using gcc 4.9.2 and python 2.7.7.  I am using my 
> personal account and I own the build directory and all of the 
> directories/files for gcc and python.  I am still getting the following 
> error:
>
> checking for a version of Python >= '2.1.0'... sys:1: RuntimeWarning: not 
> adding
>  directory '' to sys.path since it's writable by an untrusted group.
> Untrusted users could put files in this directory which might then be 
> imported b
> y your Python code. As a general precaution from similar exploits, you 
> should no
> t execute Python code from this directory
>
> I have attached the sage_pynac-0.3.2.log for you to review.  I have tried 
> looking through previous posts, but I don't see anything that quite matches 
> this situation.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help.
>
> Cindy
>

On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 1:43:22 PM UTC-6, crook...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I am trying to compile sage-6.4.1 for one of my users.  I am working on a 
> SLES11 SP2 machine using gcc 4.9.2 and python 2.7.7.  I am using my 
> personal account and I own the build directory and all of the 
> directories/files for gcc and python.  I am still getting the following 
> error:
>
> checking for a version of Python >= '2.1.0'... sys:1: RuntimeWarning: not 
> adding
>  directory '' to sys.path since it's writable by an untrusted group.
> Untrusted users could put files in this directory which might then be 
> imported b
> y your Python code. As a general precaution from similar exploits, you 
> should no
> t execute Python code from this directory
>
> I have attached the sage_pynac-0.3.2.log for you to review.  I have tried 
> looking through previous posts, but I don't see anything that quite matches 
> this situation.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help.
>
> Cindy
>

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Re: [sage-devel] inherit group from monoid

[David Roe]

This is a circular import error.  If you look at the chain of imports,
you'll see that earlier you're in the file "sage/rings/all.py," and the
error occurs when you later try to import sage.rings.all.

A brief glance at your code doesn't reveal the cause of the problem for me,
though it could be related to creating a new top level folder
sage/monoids.  I would say that, ideally, the kind of functionality that
you're moving from Group to Monoid should go in the categories.  Then we
don't need an intermediate class in the Python inheritance tree.
David

On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Daniel Krenn  wrote:

> In
>
>   http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/17626
>
> the group class should have a newly created monoid class as a base. At
> the moment the group and the monoid parent do not have much in common
> (but their elements have).
>
> I've started implementing this, but have a rather strange problem. See
> below the output of "sage -t" of the commit c51a914.
>
> Any ideas what goes wrong?
>
> Daniel
>
>
> krenn@brown:somewhere$ ./sage -t src/sage/monoids/ src/sage/groups/
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/sage/6.5.beta4/src/bin/sage-runtests", line 79, in 
> from sage.doctest.control import DocTestController
>   File
>
> "/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/doctest/control.py",
> line 28, in 
> from sources import FileDocTestSource, DictAsObject
>   File
>
> "/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/doctest/sources.py",
> line 27, in 
> from parsing import SageDocTestParser
>   File
>
> "/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/doctest/parsing.py",
> line 49, in 
> from sage.all import RealIntervalField
>   File "/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/all.py",
> line 101, in 
> from sage.rings.all  import *
>   File
> "/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/rings/all.py",
> line 69, in 
> from number_field.all import *
>   File
>
> "/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/rings/number_field/all.py",
> line 1, in 
> from number_field import (NumberField, NumberFieldTower,
> CyclotomicField, QuadraticField,
>   File
>
> "/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/rings/number_field/number_field.py",
> line 113, in 
> from unit_group import UnitGroup
>   File
>
> "/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/rings/number_field/unit_group.py",
> line 140, in 
> from sage.groups.abelian_gps.values import AbelianGroupWithValues_class
>   File
>
> "/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/groups/abelian_gps/values.py",
> line 77, in 
> from sage.groups.abelian_gps.abelian_group import
> AbelianGroup_class, _normalize
>   File
>
> "/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/groups/abelian_gps/abelian_group.py",
> line 215, in 
> from sage.groups.group import AbelianGroup as AbelianGroupBase
>   File "sage/groups/group.pyx", line 1, in init sage.groups.group
> (build/cythonized/sage/groups/group.c:5180)
>   File
>
> "/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/monoids/__init__.py",
> line 1, in 
> import all
>   File
> "/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/monoids/all.py",
> line 1, in 
> from free_monoid import FreeMonoid
>   File
>
> "/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/monoids/free_monoid.py",
> line 39, in 
> from sage.combinat.words.finite_word import FiniteWord_class
>   File
>
> "/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/combinat/words/__init__.py",
> line 20, in 
> import all
>   File
>
> "/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/combinat/words/all.py",
> line 5, in 
> from morphism import WordMorphism
>   File
>
> "/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/combinat/words/morphism.py",
> line 96, in 
> from sage.matrix.constructor import Matrix
>   File
>
> "/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/matrix/constructor.py",
> line 20, in 
> import sage.rings.all as rings
> AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'all'
>
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[sage-devel] Re: What is "Interface Issues" doing in the "Constructions" document ?

[kcrisman]

>
> >> 
> > Lots of *users* of group theory use Sage, though. 
>
> My impression is that group theorists use GAP but not necessarily Sage. 
>
>
I don't count group theorists as users of group theory (or at least, not 
only).  My point was this is useful even if all group theorists use GAP 
only; lots of other people use groups. 

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Re: [sage-devel] reducing upstream tarballs in a reproducible way

[David Roe]

I'm on OS X 10.9.2, Macbook Pro, tar --version returns
bsdtar 2.8.3 - libarchive 2.8.3

For me, your last line resulted in:
tar: Option --mtime=1970-01-01 01:00 is not supported
David


On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 5:59 AM, Thierry 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> it is advised to distribute unmodified upstream tarball at much as
> possible, so that the end-user should be able to check that the tarball
> shipped by Sage has the same hash that upstreams. However, when size can
> be reduced by a huge factor, integrity arguments become pretty weak and we
> randomly upload hand-modified tarballs on tickets without a clear checking
> process during the review process.
>
> In some cases, one possibility is to discuss with upstream to ship both
> full and trimmed sources (which will benefit to other downstream, e.g. for
> mathjax that can be considerably reduced while keeping all features).
>
> Another mid-term compromise could be to strip some few upstream source,
> but in a checkable and reproducible manner, that is, with a spkg-src
> script that will produce deterministic tarballs, so that anyone (in
> particular the reviewer) can re-run the script and check the hashsums. By
> default, tarballs are quite volatile because of timestamps and ownership,
> also the file ordering seems to depend on the computer, the posix format
> is nondeterministic, and i may have missed some other subtleties.
>
> In order to try such possibility on the next matplotlib update, could some
> people (especially someone using OSX) give me (with minimal info on their
> OS, arch, and tar --version) the result of:
>
> wget
> https://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/matplotlib/matplotlib/matplotlib-1.4.2/matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.gz
> tar xf matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.gz
> rm -rf matplotlib-1.4.2/lib/matplotlib/tests/baseline_images/*
> find matplotlib-1.4.2 | sort | tar --no-recursion -cj --format=gnu
> --mtime='1970-01-01 01:00' --group=0 --owner=0 -f matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.bz2
> -T -
> shasum matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.bz2
>
> Thanks,
> Thierry
>
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Re: [sage-devel] reducing upstream tarballs in a reproducible way

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 01/12/2015 05:59 AM, Thierry wrote:
> 
> In order to try such possibility on the next matplotlib update, could some
> people (especially someone using OSX) give me (with minimal info on their
> OS, arch, and tar --version) the result of:
> 
> wget 
> https://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/matplotlib/matplotlib/matplotlib-1.4.2/matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.gz
> tar xf matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.gz
> rm -rf matplotlib-1.4.2/lib/matplotlib/tests/baseline_images/*
> find matplotlib-1.4.2 | sort | tar --no-recursion -cj --format=gnu 
> --mtime='1970-01-01 01:00' --group=0 --owner=0 -f matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.bz2 -T 
> -
> shasum matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.bz2
> 

Simply switching to "xz -9" from "gz" gives a big improvement:

  50139344 Oct 22 22:07 matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.gz
  43625140 Jan 12 15:45 matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.xz

The default "xz" that you get from "tar -cJf" was very close but
slightly bigger (it will depend on the contents of the directory).

That's an easy feature request that we could send upstream.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: What is "Interface Issues" doing in the "Constructions" document ?

[Vincent Delecroix]

2015-01-12 16:08 UTC+01:00, William Stein :
> By the way, yesterday at the Sage booth at the Joint Math meetings somebody
> walked up and said, "can you use Sage to enumerate the groups of order 16?"
>   For a group theorist, this is a very natural basic question. I tried
> groups.[tab] and found nothing useful.  I tried searching the sage
> reference manual and couldn't figure it out.  I then of course googled for
> GAP and that sort of question, and found how to do it directly with GAP and
> did.  However, I could not figure out how to convert a gap group back to
> Sage.  And I couldn't figure out how to list the elements of a GAP group.
>  So I'm definitely not so happy with the group theory functionality in
> Sage, or at least its documentation.
> Remember, this was all in front of an impatient *potential* Sage users, so
> I don't get 20 minutes to try to figure out each thing -- if I can't in 1
> minute, we lose.

That's a pity... we have everything

1) gap stuff

sage: for g in gap.AllGroups(12): print g
Group( [ f1, f2, f3 ] )
Group( [ f1, f2, f3 ] )
Group( [ f1, f2, f3 ] )
Group( [ f1, f2, f3 ] )
Group( [ f1, f2, f3 ] )

2) gap wrappers for finitely presented groups

sage: G. = FreeGroup()
sage: H = G / [a, b^3]
sage: H
Finitely presented group < a, b | a, b^3 >

But there is currently no way to initialize 2) with a group from GAP!
Too bad. I created #17627 for that.

Vincent

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Remove "A Tour of Sage"

[William Stein]

On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 11:08 AM, Nathann Cohen 
wrote:

>
>
> > What is the argument for removing the tour? I have seen absolutely no
> > arguments at for removing it, except maybe "the first section of that
> manual
> > is also named "A guided tour".' That's not a compelling argument. A
> > piece of our documentation has a target audience (or audience) and a goal
> > about what it should accomplish for them. The tour presumably has as a
> > target audience people who want to learn something about sage, probably
> > interactively, in about 10 minutes. And it's aimed at people who have
> > never used Sage before.
>
> Please William, do not be so defensive.
>

Sorry -- I didn't mean to offend you -- I was just writing  in a hurry when
I got a moment at the booth.  I should be reported to sage-abuse and
looking at the above, I can totally understand why you were offended.


>
> I am not your enemy, I am not Sage's enemy, and I spent my whole
> week-end writing doc patches [1]. I only want to improve our
> documentation, for all users.
>
> Here is the reason why I believe that this document is not
> something we want to show to the users [2]
>
> - It is entitled "A tour of Sage", and it does not (at all) give
>   an overview of what Sage does (and makes it a perfect tool in
>   some fields)
>

> - It only shows basic things that you can do with one thousand
>   other softwares
>
> - It looks unfinished: look at the bottom of the page. Please
>   look at it.
>
> Here is why I think that it is advertised at the wrong place:
>
> - It appears at the root of all our documentation [3], on the
>   same level as the developer's manual, the reference manual, or
>   the actual 'tutorial' (thematic or not)
>
> - If you do not know better, you could honestly believe that this
>   'Tour of Sage' is the only documentation we have for very very
>   new users
>
> Why I think that we should remove it:
>
> - You witnessed that plenty of our documentation is outdated. We
>   cannot keep and maintain all this doc. We need to have fewer
>   documents, we cannot do it otherwise.
>
> - We cannot make a document update itself, and we cannot order
>   anybody to do it. If we keep it, it will stay as it is for a
>   long time (since Mike Hansen wrote it in 2009, only broken
>   doctests have been changed).
>
> If you refuse to see it removed [4], I believe that it should be
> turned into a sub-document of the tutorial. Under a different
> name. Something like 'A 5-minutes overview of Sage'.
>
> I honestly believe that it would be a pity to not remove it. Some
> short document, at this entry level, is indeed needed but this
> page alone is bad work. Let us remove it, and re-do it from
> scratch later. This document does not help us: in its current
> state, new users should rather consult the 'tutorial'
> document (and its table of contents, for a quick overview).
>
> Nathann
>
> P.S.: I need help to review the trac tickets from [1]. This is
>   only documentation to review, it is easy, but I need those
>   ticket to be reviewed before I can write more.
>
> [1]
> http://trac.sagemath.org/query?status=needs_review&component=documentation&col=id&col=summary&col=status&col=type&col=priority&col=milestone&col=component&order=priority
> [2] http://www.sagemath.org/doc/a_tour_of_sage/index.html
> [3] http://www.sagemath.org/doc/index.html
> [4] I am powerless against that. The same way that in the review
> process the reviewer is all-powerful, and the author can only
> obey if he wants his patch to pass.
>


OK, I am completely convinced by your arguments above.  Thanks for taking
time to put them together.

 -- William



-- 
William Stein
Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: What is "Interface Issues" doing in the "Constructions" document ?

[William Stein]

On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 12:30 PM, Simon King  wrote:

> Hi!
>
> On 2015-01-12, David Joyner  wrote:
> > Depends on the group:
> >
> > ...
> >
> > The simplest explanation would be to use the small groups database
> > which can be installed into Sage, but it is not open-source licensed.
>
> For example:
>
> sage:
> [PermutationGroup(gap.SmallGroup(16,i).IsomorphismPermGroup().Range().GeneratorsOfGroup())
> for i in range(1,15)]
>
> Note that an explicit transformation to a permutation group is needed.
> Simply doing ".sage()" on a gap group doesn't work.
>

Yes, I tried .sage() but didn't think of [PermutationGroup(...)], and
didn't know about Range(), and didn't know about GeneratorsOfGroup().


>
> In any case, it needs database_gap installed, and it certainly isn't
> obvious how to do.
>
> Best regards,
> Simon
>
>
>
>
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-- 
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[sage-devel] Re: What is "Interface Issues" doing in the "Constructions" document ?

[Simon King]

On 2015-01-12, kcrisman  wrote:
>> I don't even know if there any group theorists at all that use Sage...  
>>
>>
> Lots of *users* of group theory use Sage, though.

My impression is that group theorists use GAP but not necessarily Sage.

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Re: [sage-devel] reducing upstream tarballs in a reproducible way

[Volker Braun]

Also compression programs sometimes improve (without changing the 
decompression routine), and/or their default parameters might be 
machine-dependent. 

On Monday, January 12, 2015 at 3:22:53 PM UTC+1, Thierry 
(sage-googlesucks@xxx) wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 04:47:55PM +0530, Nathann Cohen wrote: 
> > Hello Thierry ! 
> > 
> > What about checking that there is nothing wrong without a hashsum ? 
> > 
> > 1) Download the author's .tar.bz2 file 
> > 2) Use the sage-src script to generate the .tar.bz2 file yourself 
> > 3a) If the hashed match you are done 
> > 3b) If they do not match, extract them both and compare their content 
> > with diff -r dir1 dir2 
> > 
> > Doesn't it always work ? 
>
> This is precisely what i would like to have ! But for 3a to work, the 
> spkg-src script must behave deterministically, which is not the case at 
> all, since the tarballs contain some info about timestamps, user, group, 
> it depends on the order in which files are stored and so on. 
>
> Simple example (not really about tar but about its way to handle gzip): 
>
> touch plop 
> for i in $(seq 10); do 
> tar czf plop.tar.gz plop 
> sleep 1 
> shasum plop.tar.gz 
> done 
>
> This is why i am looking for a way to rewrite spkg-src in a deterministic 
> way (across all machines). Currently, when i review a package, i have to 
> extract the tarball and hashsum every file and compare them to my own 
> build of the tarball. 
>
> The aim of this thread is to check whether the line 
>
> find matplotlib-1.4.2 | sort | tar --no-recursion -cj --format=gnu 
> --mtime='1970-01-01 01:00' --group=0 --owner=0 -f matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.bz2 
> -T - 
>
> does the job or if they are still some variations depending on the tar 
> version, the OS, the arch or whatever. 
>
> Ciao, 
> Thierry 
>
>
>
> > Nathann 
> > 
> > -- 
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>

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[sage-devel] Re: Bug Days?

[Jean-Pierre Flori]

On Thursday, January 8, 2015 at 4:34:22 PM UTC+1, William wrote:
>
> Hi, 
>
> Would anybody be interested in helping me to organize a bug days 
> workshop sometime in the next few months? 
> I have plenty of funding for this for US people and can scrounge up 
> some funds for some non-US people. 
>
Hi,

I'd definitely be interested in attending, and even though I'm motivated, 
not sure if I could really help organizing as I'm not US based (and I would 
have to check that my employer is ok, but I guess it won't be an issue)...

Best,
JP

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Re: [sage-devel] Python 3 focused Sage Days

[Francois Bissey]

I have been thinking of converting polybori to distutils the same way that 
cvxopt does
thing. It may turn out not to be possible without a bit of auto tools because 
of polybori
builds proper libraries not just python extensions. 
But at best it is a band aid as no more development will be done.
Someone else would have to step up to maintain the code in the long term
even without new development.

François

> On 12/01/2015, at 22:58, Martin Albrecht  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi, here's a reply from a PolyBoRi developer:
> 
> --  Forwarded Message  --
> 
> Subject: Re: [Polybori-discuss] Fwd: Re: [sage-devel] Re: Python 3 focused 
> Sage  Days
> Date: Saturday 10 Jan 2015, 22:19:16
> From: Alexander Dreyer 
> To: Martin Albrecht , Polybori Discuss 
> 
> 
> Hi Martin,
> Unfortunately, Andrew's right, PolyBoRi died when its developers left the 
> scientific community. I'm not sure, what's the best way for SAGE to deal with 
> it. Porting PolyBoRi's py files shouldn't be a big deal, and Sage already 
> uses  
> it's own Cython-bindings for the data structures. What remains is scons. 
> Perhaps, it's easier to set up a setup.py or another build system than 
> removing PolyBoRi from all the crypto modules. (You probably know the 
> dependencies better than me.) For working around lots of scons issues, most 
> of 
> the SConstruct file is plain python anyway.
> 
> Best regards,
>  Alexander
> -
> 
> On Thursday 08 Jan 2015 18:06:59 R. Andrew Ohana wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 5:38 PM, kcrisman  wrote:
>>> All our dependencies have proper support for Python 3,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> What about 17 and 18 at http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/15530?
>> 
>> Yes, you are right. I had forgotten about those when I posted this. 17
>> (scons) only exists because of 18 (polybori) and csage, although there has
>> been some work to move off of scons for csage. I'm not really familiar with
>> the polybori situation, other than from the outside, the project appears to
>> be dead, so we would have to handle that somehow. Certainly, most of sage
>> *should* be usable without polybori, so we *should* be able to get
>> something up and running without it (considering how messed up the imports
>> are in sage though, it wouldn't surprise me if it would take a ton of work
>> to make sage usable without polybori).
>> 
>> --
>> 
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[sage-devel] Re: What is "Interface Issues" doing in the "Constructions" document ?

[Simon King]

Hi!

On 2015-01-12, David Joyner  wrote:
> Depends on the group:
>
> ...
>
> The simplest explanation would be to use the small groups database
> which can be installed into Sage, but it is not open-source licensed.

For example:

sage: 
[PermutationGroup(gap.SmallGroup(16,i).IsomorphismPermGroup().Range().GeneratorsOfGroup())
 for i in range(1,15)]

Note that an explicit transformation to a permutation group is needed.
Simply doing ".sage()" on a gap group doesn't work.

In any case, it needs database_gap installed, and it certainly isn't
obvious how to do.

Best regards,
Simon




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[sage-devel] Re: Remove "A Tour of Sage"

[Simon King]

Hi!

On 2015-01-12, kcrisman  wrote:
> The "Tutorial" is the original, *general* "intro to Sage" that was written 
> in the age of the dinosaurs.  It is still quite useful for people who 
> already know a similar CAS, but a lot of the content dates to when we had 
> much less robust communication among the various sub-parts of Sage. 
> ...
> I imagine that William or someone else added this very early on for people 
> familiar with Mma, and as a short document.  

To me, tutorial sounds like a general introduction, starting from scratch
and steering quickly to things that typical users want to achieve. So, I
would not expect a comparison of CASs in such a document (did never read it,
though).

If its purpose is to explain Sage for those who know other CAS, somehow
explaining the differences and common points between various Ma* and
Sage, then it should perhaps be kept under a different name? 

Cheers,
Simon

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: What is "Interface Issues" doing in the "Constructions" document ?

[kcrisman]

>
> You are assuming that the only target audience of the constructions guide 
> is a person actively using an interactive Sage session, but that is not the 
> only target audience.   Google searches, especially from people who might 
> have never heard of Sage, are a big target audience for the constructions 
> guide.
>

Interesting, and makes sense.  In which case we need volunteers to make it 
useful.
 

> Remember, this was all in front of an impatient *potential* Sage users, so 
> I don't get 20 minutes to try to figure out each thing -- if I can't in 1 
> minute, we lose. 
>
>
Agreed, I have very often had this experience.  (Sorry I couldn't help out 
this year.)
 

> I don't even know if there any group theorists at all that use Sage...  
>
>
Lots of *users* of group theory use Sage, though.
 

> Anyway, an ideal entry in the constructions guide would be "How do I 
> construct a list of all groups of order 16?"
>

+1 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Remove "A Tour of Sage"

[kcrisman]

>
> > What is the argument for removing the tour? I have seen absolutely no
> > arguments at for removing it, except maybe "the first section of that 
> manual
> > is also named "A guided tour".' That's not a compelling argument. A
> > piece of our documentation has a target audience (or audience) and a goal
> > about what it should accomplish for them. The tour presumably has as a
> > target audience people who want to learn something about sage, probably
> > interactively, in about 10 minutes. And it's aimed at people who have
> > never used Sage before.
>
>
I don't myself know what the target audience is for that document.  The 
reason that this would even come up, from my point of view, is the comment 
I mentioned before at http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/7192#comment:26 

 (not 
my comment) that this document shouldn't exist:

"Moreover I am not sure if it is a good idea to include this code. It looks 
like a copy of the mathematica book, so it could be seen as a copyright 
infringement."
"Well, in fact I think that the en, de, fr versions should also be deleted. 
Moreover, the copy is incomplete and I think that it does not apport 
anything to the newby with respect to the other documentation."
 

> Please William, do not be so defensive.
>

I don't think that was the intent, just that he didn't get why it should be 
removed.  I think there are good arguments to remove it (mainly that it's 
not particularly useful, or wouldn't have been to me as a newbie) but also 
keeping it in as a "Five-minute intro" seems quite reasonable.

In any case I'm sorry I got this going, because Nathann's original idea was 
just whether this should be removed or possibly moved to a more sensible 
(not top-level) location.

I agree that the document seems partial; the Hungarian translation I think 
was one that almost didn't happen because of that objection.

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[sage-devel] inherit group from monoid

[Daniel Krenn]

In

  http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/17626

the group class should have a newly created monoid class as a base. At
the moment the group and the monoid parent do not have much in common
(but their elements have).

I've started implementing this, but have a rather strange problem. See
below the output of "sage -t" of the commit c51a914.

Any ideas what goes wrong?

Daniel


krenn@brown:somewhere$ ./sage -t src/sage/monoids/ src/sage/groups/
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/sage/6.5.beta4/src/bin/sage-runtests", line 79, in 
from sage.doctest.control import DocTestController
  File
"/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/doctest/control.py",
line 28, in 
from sources import FileDocTestSource, DictAsObject
  File
"/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/doctest/sources.py",
line 27, in 
from parsing import SageDocTestParser
  File
"/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/doctest/parsing.py",
line 49, in 
from sage.all import RealIntervalField
  File "/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/all.py",
line 101, in 
from sage.rings.all  import *
  File
"/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/rings/all.py",
line 69, in 
from number_field.all import *
  File
"/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/rings/number_field/all.py",
line 1, in 
from number_field import (NumberField, NumberFieldTower,
CyclotomicField, QuadraticField,
  File
"/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/rings/number_field/number_field.py",
line 113, in 
from unit_group import UnitGroup
  File
"/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/rings/number_field/unit_group.py",
line 140, in 
from sage.groups.abelian_gps.values import AbelianGroupWithValues_class
  File
"/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/groups/abelian_gps/values.py",
line 77, in 
from sage.groups.abelian_gps.abelian_group import
AbelianGroup_class, _normalize
  File
"/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/groups/abelian_gps/abelian_group.py",
line 215, in 
from sage.groups.group import AbelianGroup as AbelianGroupBase
  File "sage/groups/group.pyx", line 1, in init sage.groups.group
(build/cythonized/sage/groups/group.c:5180)
  File
"/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/monoids/__init__.py",
line 1, in 
import all
  File
"/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/monoids/all.py",
line 1, in 
from free_monoid import FreeMonoid
  File
"/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/monoids/free_monoid.py",
line 39, in 
from sage.combinat.words.finite_word import FiniteWord_class
  File
"/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/combinat/words/__init__.py",
line 20, in 
import all
  File
"/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/combinat/words/all.py",
line 5, in 
from morphism import WordMorphism
  File
"/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/combinat/words/morphism.py",
line 96, in 
from sage.matrix.constructor import Matrix
  File
"/sage/6.5.beta4/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/matrix/constructor.py",
line 20, in 
import sage.rings.all as rings
AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'all'

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: What is "Interface Issues" doing in the "Constructions" document ?

[Nathann Cohen]

> Interesting.  A lot of this should go in the Tutorial or FAQ, I think.

Okay. I will write a patch for that, but I will wait before the other
patches are reviewed as I worry about conflicts. Many things are being
rewritten and moved around in all directions.

Nathann

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Remove "A Tour of Sage"

[Nathann Cohen]

> What is the argument for removing the tour? I have seen absolutely no
> arguments at for removing it, except maybe "the first section of that
manual
> is also named "A guided tour".' That's not a compelling argument. A
> piece of our documentation has a target audience (or audience) and a goal
> about what it should accomplish for them. The tour presumably has as a
> target audience people who want to learn something about sage, probably
> interactively, in about 10 minutes. And it's aimed at people who have
> never used Sage before.

Please William, do not be so defensive.

I am not your enemy, I am not Sage's enemy, and I spent my whole
week-end writing doc patches [1]. I only want to improve our
documentation, for all users.

Here is the reason why I believe that this document is not
something we want to show to the users [2]

- It is entitled "A tour of Sage", and it does not (at all) give
  an overview of what Sage does (and makes it a perfect tool in
  some fields)

- It only shows basic things that you can do with one thousand
  other softwares

- It looks unfinished: look at the bottom of the page. Please
  look at it.

Here is why I think that it is advertised at the wrong place:

- It appears at the root of all our documentation [3], on the
  same level as the developer's manual, the reference manual, or
  the actual 'tutorial' (thematic or not)

- If you do not know better, you could honestly believe that this
  'Tour of Sage' is the only documentation we have for very very
  new users

Why I think that we should remove it:

- You witnessed that plenty of our documentation is outdated. We
  cannot keep and maintain all this doc. We need to have fewer
  documents, we cannot do it otherwise.

- We cannot make a document update itself, and we cannot order
  anybody to do it. If we keep it, it will stay as it is for a
  long time (since Mike Hansen wrote it in 2009, only broken
  doctests have been changed).

If you refuse to see it removed [4], I believe that it should be
turned into a sub-document of the tutorial. Under a different
name. Something like 'A 5-minutes overview of Sage'.

I honestly believe that it would be a pity to not remove it. Some
short document, at this entry level, is indeed needed but this
page alone is bad work. Let us remove it, and re-do it from
scratch later. This document does not help us: in its current
state, new users should rather consult the 'tutorial'
document (and its table of contents, for a quick overview).

Nathann

P.S.: I need help to review the trac tickets from [1]. This is
  only documentation to review, it is easy, but I need those
  ticket to be reviewed before I can write more.

[1]
http://trac.sagemath.org/query?status=needs_review&component=documentation&col=id&col=summary&col=status&col=type&col=priority&col=milestone&col=component&order=priority
[2] http://www.sagemath.org/doc/a_tour_of_sage/index.html
[3] http://www.sagemath.org/doc/index.html
[4] I am powerless against that. The same way that in the review
process the reviewer is all-powerful, and the author can only
obey if he wants his patch to pass.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: What is "Interface Issues" doing in the "Constructions" document ?

[David Joyner]

On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 10:08 AM, William Stein  wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 8:58 AM, Nathann Cohen 
> wrote:
>>
>> > The best outcome would be to have a true "how do I do *** in Sage"
>> > document
>> > that keeps being updated;
>>
>> A small remark: in combinatorial designs and graphs the anser to "How
>> do I build ***" is rather well answered by graphs.,
>> digraphs., designs.. It gives a nice entry point for the
>> functions that "build something", and from there the classes/functions
>> doc is sufficient in our case.
>>
>> Of course I have no idea how that applies for other fields. But I
>> would not be surprised if we could simply remove the groups/codes
>> entries of the construction manual, after checking that all that it
>> says can already be found through the groups. and codes.
>> objects.
>>
>
> You are assuming that the only target audience of the constructions guide is
> a person actively using an interactive Sage session, but that is not the
> only target audience.   Google searches, especially from people who might
> have never heard of Sage, are a big target audience for the constructions
> guide.
>
> I definitely would encourage you to do the above though and make sure
> blah. is as good as possible.
>
> By the way, yesterday at the Sage booth at the Joint Math meetings somebody
> walked up and said, "can you use Sage to enumerate the groups of order 16?"
> For a group theorist, this is a very natural basic question. I tried
> groups.[tab] and found nothing useful.  I tried searching the sage reference
> manual and couldn't figure it out.  I then of course googled for GAP and
> that sort of question, and found how to do it directly with GAP and did.
> However, I could not figure out how to convert a gap group back to Sage.

Depends on the group:

sage: G = gap("DihedralGroup(4)")
sage: G.sage()
---
...
NotImplementedError: Unable to parse output: Group( [ f1, f2 ] )
sage: G = gap("SymmetricGroup(4)")
sage: G.sage()
Symmetric group of order 4! as a permutation group



> And I couldn't figure out how to list the elements of a GAP group.So I'm

I didn't know either but after G. I looked for a command involving either
List or Element and found AsSortedList:

sage: G = gap("DihedralGroup(4)")
sage: G.AsSortedList()
[  of ..., f1, f2, f1*f2 ]

> definitely not so happy with the group theory functionality in Sage, or at
> least its documentation.

I don't know about David Kohel but it would not bother me if our paper
"Group theory in Sage"
http://boxen.math.washington.edu/home/wdj/expository/groups-sage4.pdf
was included in the Sage documentation.

> Remember, this was all in front of an impatient *potential* Sage users, so I
> don't get 20 minutes to try to figure out each thing -- if I can't in 1
> minute, we lose.
>
> I don't even know if there any group theorists at all that use Sage...
>

I'm guessing most group theorists deal with infinite groups or modular
representation theory (or both) and Sage does not implement those
via GAP.

> Anyway, an ideal entry in the constructions guide would be "How do I
> construct a list of all groups of order 16?"
>

The simplest explanation would be to use the small groups database
which can be installed into Sage, but it is not open-source licensed.

>  -- William
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Nathann
>>
>> --
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>
>
>
>
> --
> William Stein
> Professor of Mathematics
> University of Washington
> http://wstein.org
>
> --
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Remove "A Tour of Sage"

[William Stein]

On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Nathann Cohen 
wrote:

> Let me add here that removing "A tour of Sage" also means removing all
> of its translations. And bear in mind that some (few) sections of this
> document do not exist elsewhere and need to be moved to some other
> document ("how to cite Sage" -> FAQ, "Background jobs" -> tutorial).
>
> I began to do the work, before noticing this translation problem. I
> will continue to do this job if people here agree that this (very
> incomplete) document can be removed with all its translations, but I
> do not want to take the risk to finish all this work if I end up with
> a patch that never gets reviewed. There is something like 30 minutes
> of work ahead, or something.
>
> http://www.sagemath.org/doc/a_tour_of_sage/index.html
>
>

What is the argument for removing the tour?  I have seen absolutely no
arguments at for removing it, except maybe "the first section of that
manual is also named "A guided tour".'That's not a compelling argument.
  A piece of our documentation has a target audience (or audience) and a
goal about what it should accomplish for them.   The tour presumably has as
a target audience people who want to learn something about sage, probably
interactively, in about 10 minutes.And it's aimed at people who have
never used Sage before.

William




> Good evening,
>
> Nathann
>
> On 12 January 2015 at 20:37, kcrisman  wrote:
> >> > I never thought people would seriously consider deleting the main
> >> > overall
> >> > tutorial for Sage.
> >>
> >> That is because nobody did. This thread is entitled "Remove 'A tour of
> >> Sage'" and it is about whether we should remove "A tour of Sage".
> >>
> >> Which is this document:
> >> http://www.sagemath.org/doc/a_tour_of_sage/index.html
> >>
> >
> > Correct!  Sorry if that someone became unclear in the discussion.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "sage-devel" group.
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>



-- 
William Stein
Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Remove "A Tour of Sage"

[Nathann Cohen]

Let me add here that removing "A tour of Sage" also means removing all
of its translations. And bear in mind that some (few) sections of this
document do not exist elsewhere and need to be moved to some other
document ("how to cite Sage" -> FAQ, "Background jobs" -> tutorial).

I began to do the work, before noticing this translation problem. I
will continue to do this job if people here agree that this (very
incomplete) document can be removed with all its translations, but I
do not want to take the risk to finish all this work if I end up with
a patch that never gets reviewed. There is something like 30 minutes
of work ahead, or something.

http://www.sagemath.org/doc/a_tour_of_sage/index.html

Good evening,

Nathann

On 12 January 2015 at 20:37, kcrisman  wrote:
>> > I never thought people would seriously consider deleting the main
>> > overall
>> > tutorial for Sage.
>>
>> That is because nobody did. This thread is entitled "Remove 'A tour of
>> Sage'" and it is about whether we should remove "A tour of Sage".
>>
>> Which is this document:
>> http://www.sagemath.org/doc/a_tour_of_sage/index.html
>>
>
> Correct!  Sorry if that someone became unclear in the discussion.
>
> --
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: What is "Interface Issues" doing in the "Constructions" document ?

[kcrisman]

>
> A small remark: in combinatorial designs and graphs the anser to "How 
> do I build ***" is rather well answered by graphs., 
> digraphs., designs.. It gives a nice entry point for the 
> functions that "build something", and from there the classes/functions 
> doc is sufficient in our case. 
>
> Of course I have no idea how that applies for other fields. But I 
> would not be surprised if we could simply remove the groups/codes 
> entries of the construction manual, after checking that all that it 
> says can already be found through the groups. and codes. 
> objects. 
>
>
Well, in that event one could (seriously!) just have a short section that 
gives absolute basics and says "graphs.tab" explains the rest.  Though I 
don't think that's really true; graphs.tab just gives you specific graphs, 
but to build your own custom graph from a dictionary one has to look for 
the graph constructor methods etc.   Plus one has to *know* to do 
graphs.tab, which is perhaps nontrivial for someone who hasn't used 
software to do graphs before... but I agree that such a section wouldn't 
have to be long.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: What is "Interface Issues" doing in the "Constructions" document ?

[William Stein]

On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 8:58 AM, Nathann Cohen 
wrote:

> > The best outcome would be to have a true "how do I do *** in Sage"
> document
> > that keeps being updated;
>
> A small remark: in combinatorial designs and graphs the anser to "How
> do I build ***" is rather well answered by graphs.,
> digraphs., designs.. It gives a nice entry point for the
> functions that "build something", and from there the classes/functions
> doc is sufficient in our case.
>
> Of course I have no idea how that applies for other fields. But I
> would not be surprised if we could simply remove the groups/codes
> entries of the construction manual, after checking that all that it
> says can already be found through the groups. and codes.
> objects.
>
>
You are assuming that the only target audience of the constructions guide
is a person actively using an interactive Sage session, but that is not the
only target audience.   Google searches, especially from people who might
have never heard of Sage, are a big target audience for the constructions
guide.

I definitely would encourage you to do the above though and make sure
blah. is as good as possible.

By the way, yesterday at the Sage booth at the Joint Math meetings somebody
walked up and said, "can you use Sage to enumerate the groups of order 16?"
  For a group theorist, this is a very natural basic question. I tried
groups.[tab] and found nothing useful.  I tried searching the sage
reference manual and couldn't figure it out.  I then of course googled for
GAP and that sort of question, and found how to do it directly with GAP and
did.  However, I could not figure out how to convert a gap group back to
Sage.  And I couldn't figure out how to list the elements of a GAP group.
 So I'm definitely not so happy with the group theory functionality in
Sage, or at least its documentation.
Remember, this was all in front of an impatient *potential* Sage users, so
I don't get 20 minutes to try to figure out each thing -- if I can't in 1
minute, we lose.

I don't even know if there any group theorists at all that use Sage...

Anyway, an ideal entry in the constructions guide would be "How do I
construct a list of all groups of order 16?"

 -- William









> Nathann
>
> --
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-- 
William Stein
Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Remove "A Tour of Sage"

[kcrisman]

>
> > I never thought people would seriously consider deleting the main 
> overall 
> > tutorial for Sage. 
>
> That is because nobody did. This thread is entitled "Remove 'A tour of 
> Sage'" and it is about whether we should remove "A tour of Sage". 
>
> Which is this document: 
> http://www.sagemath.org/doc/a_tour_of_sage/index.html 
>
>
Correct!  Sorry if that someone became unclear in the discussion.

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[sage-devel] Re: The Sage dev scripts

[kcrisman]

>
> >> > Hopefully it's becoming stable enough that 
> >> > we should start shipping it as part of Sage? 
> >> 
> >> At first I thought so, too. But now I'm no longer sure: if you ship it 
> >> with Sage, then it will be difficult to use it if you want to work with 
> >> a patch from an older branch. 
> > 
> > 
> > So we should *ship* it with sage but not *use* it yet. In a year or so, 
> > git-trac will have been stable enough for long enough that most people 
> can 
> > start using the version shipped with sage, because any branch they meet 
> > will have about the same git-trac. 
>

Or, we could keep the dev scripts for those who choose to want to have a 
"sealed" environment where they can do all Sage work from within Sage? 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: What is "Interface Issues" doing in the "Constructions" document ?

[Nathann Cohen]

> The best outcome would be to have a true "how do I do *** in Sage" document
> that keeps being updated;

A small remark: in combinatorial designs and graphs the anser to "How
do I build ***" is rather well answered by graphs.,
digraphs., designs.. It gives a nice entry point for the
functions that "build something", and from there the classes/functions
doc is sufficient in our case.

Of course I have no idea how that applies for other fields. But I
would not be surprised if we could simply remove the groups/codes
entries of the construction manual, after checking that all that it
says can already be found through the groups. and codes.
objects.

Nathann

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: What is "Interface Issues" doing in the "Constructions" document ?

[William Stein]

On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 8:46 AM, kcrisman  wrote:

>
>
> On Sunday, January 11, 2015 at 5:22:12 AM UTC-5, Nathann Cohen wrote:
>>
>> Hello everybody !
>>
>> The "constructions" document is meant to "answer some questions along
>> the line 'How do I construct ... in Sage?' "
>>
>> http://www.sagemath.org/doc/constructions/index.html
>>
>>
> In principle, this document needs to be massively updated or simply
> integrated (when useful) into the rest of the documentation.
>

Update it!


>
> The best outcome would be to have a true "how do I do *** in Sage"
> document that keeps being updated; that would go a long way toward
> resolving the current issue that the reference manual is too granular, the
> tutorial not detailed enough (which one would expect of both such
> documents).  But that is a big job.
>

Having a "how to do X in Sage" document is really useful to users.  Having
a document written by David Joyner in 2005 and maybe never (?) updated
since then, is much, much less useful.   So update it.


>
>
>> There is at the end of it a section which seems quite unrelated,
>> called "Interface Issues":
>>
>> http://www.sagemath.org/doc/constructions/interface_issues.html
>> 
>>
>> What do you think should be done about it ?
>>
>
> Interesting.  A lot of this should go in the Tutorial or FAQ, I think.
>
>
>
>>
>> Nathann
>>
>> P.S.: There seem to be *many* places of Sage's doc where the same
>> thing is explained, without any of the two being aware of the other.
>>
>
> This is what happens when you don't have a cathedral planner.
>

Nathann's being our cathedral planner.  Thanks Nathann!


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Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Remove "A Tour of Sage"

[Nathann Cohen]

> -1 to remove the tutorial
>
> +1 to updating and improving it
>
> I never thought people would seriously consider deleting the main overall
> tutorial for Sage.

That is because nobody did. This thread is entitled "Remove 'A tour of
Sage'" and it is about whether we should remove "A tour of Sage".

Which is this document:
http://www.sagemath.org/doc/a_tour_of_sage/index.html

Nathann

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[sage-devel] Re: Remove "A Tour of Sage"

[William Stein]

On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 8:42 AM, kcrisman  wrote:

> We already have many documents that can "contain all kind of stuff" like:
>> - the Constructions manual
>> - the Tutorials manual
>> - the Thematic Tutorials manual
>>
>> The difference between the last two is not precisely obvious (if you
>> look for something, where will it be ?)
>>
>>
> The "Tutorial" is the original, *general* "intro to Sage" that was written
> in the age of the dinosaurs.  It is still quite useful for people who
> already know a similar CAS, but a lot of the content dates to when we had
> much less robust communication among the various sub-parts of Sage.
>  "Thematic tutorials" are supposed to be, well, about some theme.
>
> 1) Should we remove it ? This would 'redirect' users toward more
>> maintained manuals.
>>
>
> I imagine that William or someone else added this very early on for people
> familiar with Mma, and as a short document.  There is a discussion at
> http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/7192 about whether we should even include
> such a document.   (Interestingly, it is the most-translated (because
> shortest?) document we have - en, fr, de, it, pt, tr, and with zh and es
> under review.)
>
>
-1 to remove the tutorial

+1 to updating and improving it

I never thought people would seriously consider deleting the main overall
tutorial for Sage.


>
>
>
>> 2) Alternatively, should we turn it into a section of the "Tutorial"
>> manual ? Note that the first section of that manual is also named "A
>> guided tour".
>> http://www.sagemath.org/doc/tutorial/index.html
>>
>>
> Yes, that is confusing.  My own feeling is that it is not part of the
> "Tutorial" document, but could be a "thematic" one if one wanted to keep
> it.
>



-- 
William Stein
Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org

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[sage-devel] Re: What is "Interface Issues" doing in the "Constructions" document ?

[kcrisman]

On Sunday, January 11, 2015 at 5:22:12 AM UTC-5, Nathann Cohen wrote:
>
> Hello everybody ! 
>
> The "constructions" document is meant to "answer some questions along 
> the line 'How do I construct ... in Sage?' " 
>
> http://www.sagemath.org/doc/constructions/index.html 
>
>
In principle, this document needs to be massively updated or simply 
integrated (when useful) into the rest of the documentation.

The best outcome would be to have a true "how do I do *** in Sage" document 
that keeps being updated; that would go a long way toward resolving the 
current issue that the reference manual is too granular, the tutorial not 
detailed enough (which one would expect of both such documents).  But that 
is a big job.
 

> There is at the end of it a section which seems quite unrelated, 
> called "Interface Issues": 
>
> http://www.sagemath.org/doc/constructions/interface_issues.html 
> 
>  
>
> What do you think should be done about it ? 
>

Interesting.  A lot of this should go in the Tutorial or FAQ, I think.

 

>
> Nathann 
>
> P.S.: There seem to be *many* places of Sage's doc where the same 
> thing is explained, without any of the two being aware of the other. 
>

This is what happens when you don't have a cathedral planner. 

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[sage-devel] Re: Remove "A Tour of Sage"

[kcrisman]

>
> We already have many documents that can "contain all kind of stuff" like: 
> - the Constructions manual 
> - the Tutorials manual 
> - the Thematic Tutorials manual 
>
> The difference between the last two is not precisely obvious (if you 
> look for something, where will it be ?) 
>
>
The "Tutorial" is the original, *general* "intro to Sage" that was written 
in the age of the dinosaurs.  It is still quite useful for people who 
already know a similar CAS, but a lot of the content dates to when we had 
much less robust communication among the various sub-parts of Sage. 
 "Thematic tutorials" are supposed to be, well, about some theme.

1) Should we remove it ? This would 'redirect' users toward more 
> maintained manuals. 
>

I imagine that William or someone else added this very early on for people 
familiar with Mma, and as a short document.  There is a discussion at 
http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/7192 about whether we should even include 
such a document.   (Interestingly, it is the most-translated (because 
shortest?) document we have - en, fr, de, it, pt, tr, and with zh and es 
under review.)


 

> 2) Alternatively, should we turn it into a section of the "Tutorial" 
> manual ? Note that the first section of that manual is also named "A 
> guided tour". 
> http://www.sagemath.org/doc/tutorial/index.html 
>
>
Yes, that is confusing.  My own feeling is that it is not part of the 
"Tutorial" document, but could be a "thematic" one if one wanted to keep 
it. 

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Re: [sage-devel] reducing upstream tarballs in a reproducible way

[Thierry]

On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 04:47:55PM +0530, Nathann Cohen wrote:
> Hello Thierry !
> 
> What about checking that there is nothing wrong without a hashsum ?
> 
> 1) Download the author's .tar.bz2 file
> 2) Use the sage-src script to generate the .tar.bz2 file yourself
> 3a) If the hashed match you are done
> 3b) If they do not match, extract them both and compare their content
> with diff -r dir1 dir2
> 
> Doesn't it always work ?

This is precisely what i would like to have ! But for 3a to work, the
spkg-src script must behave deterministically, which is not the case at
all, since the tarballs contain some info about timestamps, user, group,
it depends on the order in which files are stored and so on.

Simple example (not really about tar but about its way to handle gzip):

touch plop
for i in $(seq 10); do
tar czf plop.tar.gz plop
sleep 1
shasum plop.tar.gz
done

This is why i am looking for a way to rewrite spkg-src in a deterministic
way (across all machines). Currently, when i review a package, i have to
extract the tarball and hashsum every file and compare them to my own
build of the tarball.

The aim of this thread is to check whether the line 

find matplotlib-1.4.2 | sort | tar --no-recursion -cj --format=gnu 
--mtime='1970-01-01 01:00' --group=0 --owner=0 -f matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.bz2 -T -

does the job or if they are still some variations depending on the tar
version, the OS, the arch or whatever.

Ciao,
Thierry



> Nathann
> 
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[sage-devel] Error in Building Sage (particularly ecm-6.4)

[Shadab Zafar]

I am trying to build Sage from the current master branch but it errors in 
installing ecm.

I've attached the log file.

System Info:

Linux version 3.5.0-57-generic (buildd@tipua) (gcc version 4.6.3 
(Ubuntu/Linaro 4.6.3-1ubuntu5) ) #84~precise1-Ubuntu SMP Thu Nov 6 06:09:35 
UTC 2014

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ecm-6.4.4.log
Description: Binary data

Re: [sage-devel] How to link from one 'document' to another ?

[Nathann Cohen]

> The question has been asked before but I think it is not possible to make
> links like that. Only links *to the reference manual* are currently
> possible.

Okay :-/

Then I will use http links. While trying to be a bit smart and use
relative links, so that they still work when you are offline (and so
that you don't load the online doc when you work on a doc patch)

Nathann

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Re: [sage-devel] How to link from one 'document' to another ?

[Jeroen Demeyer]

On 2015-01-11 11:56, Nathann Cohen wrote:

Hello everybody !

Sorry if this question was already asked (I was not able to find it)
but I wondered how to make link in our doc between documents ?
The question has been asked before but I think it is not possible to 
make links like that. Only links *to the reference manual* are currently 
possible.


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Re: [sage-devel] reducing upstream tarballs in a reproducible way

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello Thierry !

What about checking that there is nothing wrong without a hashsum ?

1) Download the author's .tar.bz2 file
2) Use the sage-src script to generate the .tar.bz2 file yourself
3a) If the hashed match you are done
3b) If they do not match, extract them both and compare their content
with diff -r dir1 dir2

Doesn't it always work ?

Nathann

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[sage-devel] reducing upstream tarballs in a reproducible way

[Thierry]

Hi,

it is advised to distribute unmodified upstream tarball at much as
possible, so that the end-user should be able to check that the tarball
shipped by Sage has the same hash that upstreams. However, when size can
be reduced by a huge factor, integrity arguments become pretty weak and we
randomly upload hand-modified tarballs on tickets without a clear checking
process during the review process.

In some cases, one possibility is to discuss with upstream to ship both
full and trimmed sources (which will benefit to other downstream, e.g. for
mathjax that can be considerably reduced while keeping all features).

Another mid-term compromise could be to strip some few upstream source,
but in a checkable and reproducible manner, that is, with a spkg-src
script that will produce deterministic tarballs, so that anyone (in
particular the reviewer) can re-run the script and check the hashsums. By
default, tarballs are quite volatile because of timestamps and ownership,
also the file ordering seems to depend on the computer, the posix format
is nondeterministic, and i may have missed some other subtleties. 

In order to try such possibility on the next matplotlib update, could some
people (especially someone using OSX) give me (with minimal info on their
OS, arch, and tar --version) the result of:

wget 
https://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/matplotlib/matplotlib/matplotlib-1.4.2/matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.gz
tar xf matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.gz
rm -rf matplotlib-1.4.2/lib/matplotlib/tests/baseline_images/*
find matplotlib-1.4.2 | sort | tar --no-recursion -cj --format=gnu 
--mtime='1970-01-01 01:00' --group=0 --owner=0 -f matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.bz2 -T -
shasum matplotlib-1.4.2.tar.bz2

Thanks,
Thierry

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Python 3 focused Sage Days

[Martin Albrecht]

Hi, here's a reply from a PolyBoRi developer:

--  Forwarded Message  --

Subject: Re: [Polybori-discuss] Fwd: Re: [sage-devel] Re: Python 3 focused 
SageDays
Date: Saturday 10 Jan 2015, 22:19:16
From: Alexander Dreyer 
To: Martin Albrecht , Polybori Discuss 


Hi Martin,
Unfortunately, Andrew's right, PolyBoRi died when its developers left the 
scientific community. I'm not sure, what's the best way for SAGE to deal with 
it. Porting PolyBoRi's py files shouldn't be a big deal, and Sage already uses  
it's own Cython-bindings for the data structures. What remains is scons. 
Perhaps, it's easier to set up a setup.py or another build system than 
removing PolyBoRi from all the crypto modules. (You probably know the 
dependencies better than me.) For working around lots of scons issues, most of 
the SConstruct file is plain python anyway.

Best regards,
  Alexander
-

On Thursday 08 Jan 2015 18:06:59 R. Andrew Ohana wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 5:38 PM, kcrisman  wrote:
> > All our dependencies have proper support for Python 3,
> > 
> > 
> > What about 17 and 18 at http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/15530?
> 
> Yes, you are right. I had forgotten about those when I posted this. 17
> (scons) only exists because of 18 (polybori) and csage, although there has
> been some work to move off of scons for csage. I'm not really familiar with
> the polybori situation, other than from the outside, the project appears to
> be dead, so we would have to handle that somehow. Certainly, most of sage
> *should* be usable without polybori, so we *should* be able to get
> something up and running without it (considering how messed up the imports
> are in sage though, it wouldn't surprise me if it would take a ton of work
> to make sage usable without polybori).
> 
>  --
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[sage-devel] Re: number of lines of code in Sage

[mmarco]

Sorry,  when i wrote sloc i meant sloccount.

El lunes, 12 de enero de 2015, 10:55:11 (UTC+1), mmarco escribió:
>
> I did a similar calculation for a talk last october. I used wc -l for the 
> total lines and sloc for the single lines of code. On Sage 6.3 i got the 
> following:
>
> Language  Total Lines Single lines of code
> Python   1117979   598043
> Cython439495218669
> ansi c35597  15123
> bash   96069606
> c++ 69636963
> objective c  12091209
> Lisp6363
>
> So it seems to be a big discrepancy. I guess that sloc and cloc use very 
> different criteria to determine what is a line of code (for starters, sloc 
> does not distinguish blank lines apparently).
>
> El lunes, 12 de enero de 2015, 4:19:12 (UTC+1), William escribió:
>>
>> This [1] program for computing lines of code seems pretty nice.  About 
>> Sage, it says sage-6.4 has 433970 lines of code (in src/sage, so "the sage 
>> library"), with the following breakdown.  Does that make sense?   It also 
>> says we have 858449 lines of comments in our code files, which if true is a 
>> ratio to be proud of.
>>
>> sage-6.4$ cd src/sage; cloc *
>> 2636 text files.
>> 2559 unique files.
>>  557 files ignored.
>>  
>> http://cloc.sourceforge.net v 1.60  T=26.78 s (76.7 files/s, 59718.8 
>> lines/s)
>>
>> 
>> Language  files  blankcomment 
>>   code
>>
>> 
>> Python 1525 217859 621282 
>> 278082
>> Cython  406  81270 226620 
>> 134810
>> C42   4432   6747 
>>  13227
>> C++  16   1534   1643 
>>   5089
>> C/C++ Header 64   1522   2137 
>>   2661
>> Bourne Again Shell1  9 16 
>> 89
>> make  1  8  4 
>> 12
>>
>> 
>> SUM:   2055 306634 858449 
>> 433970
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>> [1] http://cloc.sourceforge.net/
>>
>> -- 
>> William Stein
>> Professor of Mathematics
>> University of Washington
>> http://wstein.org
>>
>

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[sage-devel] Re: number of lines of code in Sage

[mmarco]

I did a similar calculation for a talk last october. I used wc -l for the 
total lines and sloc for the single lines of code. On Sage 6.3 i got the 
following:

Language  Total Lines Single lines of code
Python   1117979   598043
Cython439495218669
ansi c35597  15123
bash   96069606
c++ 69636963
objective c  12091209
Lisp6363

So it seems to be a big discrepancy. I guess that sloc and cloc use very 
different criteria to determine what is a line of code (for starters, sloc 
does not distinguish blank lines apparently).

El lunes, 12 de enero de 2015, 4:19:12 (UTC+1), William escribió:
>
> This [1] program for computing lines of code seems pretty nice.  About 
> Sage, it says sage-6.4 has 433970 lines of code (in src/sage, so "the sage 
> library"), with the following breakdown.  Does that make sense?   It also 
> says we have 858449 lines of comments in our code files, which if true is a 
> ratio to be proud of.
>
> sage-6.4$ cd src/sage; cloc *
> 2636 text files.
> 2559 unique files.
>  557 files ignored.
>  
> http://cloc.sourceforge.net v 1.60  T=26.78 s (76.7 files/s, 59718.8 
> lines/s)
>
> 
> Language  files  blankcomment 
>   code
>
> 
> Python 1525 217859 621282 
> 278082
> Cython  406  81270 226620 
> 134810
> C42   4432   6747 
>  13227
> C++  16   1534   1643 
>   5089
> C/C++ Header 64   1522   2137 
>   2661
> Bourne Again Shell1  9 16 
> 89
> make  1  8  4 
> 12
>
> 
> SUM:   2055 306634 858449 
> 433970
>
> 
>
>
> [1] http://cloc.sourceforge.net/
>
> -- 
> William Stein
> Professor of Mathematics
> University of Washington
> http://wstein.org
>

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[sage-devel] Re: Build error for sage 6.4 beta 5 under cygwin64

[Sebastien Gouezel]

Le 09/01/2015 12:30, Jean-Pierre Flori a écrit :


That is easy to fix.
Just add gmp to the linked libraries in module_list.py for these files.


Indeed, this is very easy, and works like a charm.  After this, 
everything compiles, and a lot of things are working! (well, a lot of 
things are also broken, of course, including pari and ecm)



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