Re: [sage-devel] maxima install should not consider local config files

[Francois Bissey]

> On 24/09/2015, at 16:51, Bill Janssen  wrote:
> 
> Compiling Sage from scratch (6.8 sources) fails because the maxima install 
> fails, because it loads ~/quicklisp/setup.lisp.
> 
> Am I the first Lisp programmer to try this?

I suspect you are. Is there a variable you can set to point to a “setup.lisp” 
file?
If there is we could had a location in the sage install tree to bypass any local
files. And can you open a ticket.

François

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Re: [sage-devel] how should the expression relation test be named?

[Ralf Stephan]

>
>   ex.is_zero(simplify=False) 
>   ex.is_zero(simplify=True) 


This fits if ex is an equality. But what about: if x>0 ?
Two functions are necessary for inequalities because (x>0).__nonzero__
is called by (x>0)._cmp_ in case of eg. uniq(list of exes) and
here print or alphabetical order is called for, not proof.

So there is still a need for hold/truth() etc it seems.

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Re: [sage-devel] how should the expression relation test be named?

[Ralf Stephan]

On Wednesday, September 23, 2015 at 11:14:32 PM UTC+2, William wrote:

>   ex.is_zero(simplify=False) 
>   ex.is_zero(simplify=True) 


Most consistent. Why didn't I think of this. 

On Wednesday, September 23, 2015 at 10:08:52 PM UTC+2, Michael Orlitzky 
wrote:
>
> Doesn't `bool(x == y)` already try to simplify `x - y` to zero? 
>
 
At the moment yes. But it is also invoked when people want to compare
objects and write if (ex!=0). See example confusion at
http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/18979

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[sage-devel] Re: sage -update not working

[Bill Janssen]

I'm trying to get around a build problem with sqlite3.  I thought that 
doing an update might address that (I was wrong about that).  But that's 
incidental; shouldn't "sage -update" work even if it's pointless?

Bill

On Wednesday, September 23, 2015 at 3:45:54 PM UTC-7, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 15:38:11 UTC-7, Bill Janssen wrote:
>>
>> I downloaded the OS X version of Sage 6.8, unpacked it, and tried to run 
>> "sage -update".  However, it fails immediately:
>>
>
> 6.8 is the latest stable version. What are you trying to upgrade?
>
>  
>
>>
>> touch /Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/var/lib/sage/installed/prereq
>> /Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/build/pipestatus "sage-spkg -f 
>> bzip2-1.0.6.20140317 2>&1" "tee -a 
>> /Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/logs/pkgs/bzip2-1.0.6.20140317.log"
>> Found local metadata for bzip2-1.0.6.20140317
>> Attempting to download package bzip2-1.0.6.20140317
>> >>> Trying to download http://
>> www.sagemath.org/packages/upstream/bzip2/bzip2-1.0.6.20140317.tar.gz
>> [Traceback (most recent call last):
>>   File "", line 35, in 
>>   File "/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/python/urllib.py", 
>> line 240, in retrieve
>> fp = self.open(url, data)
>>   File "/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/python/urllib.py", 
>> line 208, in open
>> return getattr(self, name)(url)
>>   File "/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/python/urllib.py", 
>> line 359, in open_http
>> return self.http_error(url, fp, errcode, errmsg, headers)
>>   File "/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/python/urllib.py", 
>> line 376, in http_error
>> return self.http_error_default(url, fp, errcode, errmsg, headers)
>>   File "", line 17, in http_error_default
>> IOError: [Errno 404] Not Found: '//
>> www.sagemath.org/packages/upstream/bzip2/bzip2-1.0.6.20140317.tar.gz'
>> Error: failed to download package bzip2-1.0.6.20140317
>> make[2]: *** [/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/var/lib/sage/
>> installed/bzip2-1.0.6.20140317] Error 1
>> make[1]: *** [all] Error 2
>>
>> real0m8.869s
>> user0m1.960s
>> sys0m2.425s
>> ***
>> Error building Sage.
>>
>> The following package(s) may have failed to build:
>>
>> package: bzip2-1.0.6.20140317
>> log file: /Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/logs/pkgs/bzip2-1.0.6.20140317.
>> log
>> build directory: /Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/var/tmp/sage/build
>> /bzip2-1.0.6.20140317
>>
>>
>> Sure enough, if I try to wget that location (
>> https://www.sagemath.org/packages/upstream/bzip2/bzip2-1.0.6.20140317.tar.gz),
>>  
>> I get a 404 error.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>

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[sage-devel] maxima install should not consider local config files

[Bill Janssen]

Compiling Sage from scratch (6.8 sources) fails because the maxima install 
fails, because it loads ~/quicklisp/setup.lisp.

Am I the first Lisp programmer to try this?

Bill

 /usr/bin/install -c mgnuplot 
'/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/libexec/maxima/5.35.1'
/bin/sh /Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/var/tmp/sage/build/maxima-5.35
.1.p2/src/install-sh -d 
make[5]: Nothing to be done for `install-exec-am'.
/bin/sh 
/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/var/tmp/sage/build/maxima-5.35.1.p2/src/install-sh
 
-d 
;;; Warning: Lisp compilation had style-warnings while
 compiling #

Now installing the Maxima library as ';;; Loading 
#P"/tilde/janssen/quicklisp/setup.lisp"
;;; Loading #P"/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/ecl/cmp.fas"
;;; Loading #P"/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/ecl/asdf.fas"
;;; Style warning:
;;;   in file client.lisp, position 809
;;;   at (DEFMETHOD QUICKLOAD ...)
;;;   ! The variable EXPLAIN is not used.
;;; Style warning:
;;;   in file client.lisp, position 809
;;;   at (DEFMETHOD QUICKLOAD ...)
;;;   ! The variable PROMPT is not used.
;;; Style warning:
;;;   in file client.lisp, position 809
;;;   at (DEFMETHOD QUICKLOAD ...)
;;;   ! The variable VERBOSE is not used.
;;; Style warning:
;;;   in file client.lisp, position 809
;;;   at (DEFMETHOD QUICKLOAD ...)
;;;   ! The variable SYSTEMS is not 
used./Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/ecl//maxima.fas'...
cp: ;;; Loading #P"/tilde/janssen/quicklisp/setup.lisp"
;;; Loading #P"/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/ecl/cmp.fas"
;;; Loading #P"/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/ecl/asdf.fas"
;;; Style warning:
;;;   in file client.lisp, position 809
;;;   at (DEFMETHOD QUICKLOAD ...)
;;;   ! The variable EXPLAIN is not used.
;;; Style warning:
;;;   in file client.lisp, position 809
;;;   at (DEFMETHOD QUICKLOAD ...)
;;;   ! The variable PROMPT is not used.
;;; Style warning:
;;;   in file client.lisp, position 809
;;;   at (DEFMETHOD QUICKLOAD ...)
;;;   ! The variable VERBOSE is not used.
;;; Style warning:
;;;   in file client.lisp, position 809
;;;   at (DEFMETHOD QUICKLOAD ...)
;;;   ! The variable SYSTEMS is not 
used./Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/ecl//maxima.fas: No such 
file or directory
***
Error: Failed to install 
'/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/var/tmp/sage/build/maxima-5.35.1.p2/src/src/binary-ecl/maxima.fas'
 
as ';;; Loading #P"/tilde/janssen/quicklisp/setup.lisp" ;;; Loading 
#P"/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/ecl/cmp.fas" ;;; Loading 
#P"/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/ecl/asdf.fas" ;;; Style 
warning: ;;; in file client.lisp, position 809 ;;; at (DEFMETHOD QUICKLOAD 
...) ;;; ! The variable EXPLAIN is not used. ;;; Style warning: ;;; in file 
client.lisp, position 809 ;;; at (DEFMETHOD QUICKLOAD ...) ;;; ! The 
variable PROMPT is not used. ;;; Style warning: ;;; in file client.lisp, 
position 809 ;;; at (DEFMETHOD QUICKLOAD ...) ;;; ! The variable VERBOSE is 
not used. ;;; Style warning: ;;; in file client.lisp, position 809 ;;; at 
(DEFMETHOD QUICKLOAD ...) ;;; ! The variable SYSTEMS is not 
used./Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/ecl//maxima.fas'.
***

real6m27.393s
user5m9.944s
sys0m52.326s

Error installing package maxima-5.35.1.p2

Please email sage-devel (http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel)
explaining the problem and including the relevant part of the log file
  /Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/logs/pkgs/maxima-5.35.1.p2.log
Describe your computer, operating system, etc.
If you want to try to fix the problem yourself, *don't* just cd to
/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/var/tmp/sage/build/maxima-5.35.1.p2 
and type 'make' or whatever is appropriate.
Instead, the following commands setup all environment variables
correctly and load a subshell for you to debug the error:
  (cd 
'/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/var/tmp/sage/build/maxima-5.35.1.p2' 
&& '/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/sage' --sh)
When you are done debugging, you can type "exit" to leave the subshell.

make[2]: *** 
[/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/var/lib/sage/installed/maxima-5.35.1.p2] 
Error 1
make[1]: *** [all] Error 2

real268m48.226s
user224m41.870s
sys33m53.334s
***
Error building Sage.

The following package(s) may have failed to build (not necessarily
during this run of 'make all'):

* package: maxima-5.35.1.p2
  log file: /Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/logs/pkgs/maxima-5.35.1.p2.log
  build directory: 
/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/var/tmp/sage/build/maxima-5.35.1.p2

The build directory may contain configur

[sage-devel] Re: sage -update not working

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 15:38:11 UTC-7, Bill Janssen wrote:
>
> I downloaded the OS X version of Sage 6.8, unpacked it, and tried to run 
> "sage -update".  However, it fails immediately:
>

6.8 is the latest stable version. What are you trying to upgrade?

 

>
> touch /Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/var/lib/sage/installed/prereq
> /Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/build/pipestatus "sage-spkg -f 
> bzip2-1.0.6.20140317 2>&1" "tee -a 
> /Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/logs/pkgs/bzip2-1.0.6.20140317.log"
> Found local metadata for bzip2-1.0.6.20140317
> Attempting to download package bzip2-1.0.6.20140317
> >>> Trying to download http://
> www.sagemath.org/packages/upstream/bzip2/bzip2-1.0.6.20140317.tar.gz
> [Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "", line 35, in 
>   File "/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/python/urllib.py", line 
> 240, in retrieve
> fp = self.open(url, data)
>   File "/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/python/urllib.py", line 
> 208, in open
> return getattr(self, name)(url)
>   File "/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/python/urllib.py", line 
> 359, in open_http
> return self.http_error(url, fp, errcode, errmsg, headers)
>   File "/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/python/urllib.py", line 
> 376, in http_error
> return self.http_error_default(url, fp, errcode, errmsg, headers)
>   File "", line 17, in http_error_default
> IOError: [Errno 404] Not Found: '//
> www.sagemath.org/packages/upstream/bzip2/bzip2-1.0.6.20140317.tar.gz'
> Error: failed to download package bzip2-1.0.6.20140317
> make[2]: *** [/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/var/lib/sage/installed
> /bzip2-1.0.6.20140317] Error 1
> make[1]: *** [all] Error 2
>
> real0m8.869s
> user0m1.960s
> sys0m2.425s
> ***
> Error building Sage.
>
> The following package(s) may have failed to build:
>
> package: bzip2-1.0.6.20140317
> log file: /Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/logs/pkgs/bzip2-1.0.6.20140317.
> log
> build directory: /Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/var/tmp/sage/build/
> bzip2-1.0.6.20140317
>
>
> Sure enough, if I try to wget that location (
> https://www.sagemath.org/packages/upstream/bzip2/bzip2-1.0.6.20140317.tar.gz),
>  
> I get a 404 error.
>
> Bill
>

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[sage-devel] sage -update not working

[Bill Janssen]

I downloaded the OS X version of Sage 6.8, unpacked it, and tried to run 
"sage -update".  However, it fails immediately:

touch /Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/var/lib/sage/installed/prereq
/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/build/pipestatus "sage-spkg -f 
bzip2-1.0.6.20140317 2>&1" "tee -a 
/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/logs/pkgs/bzip2-1.0.6.20140317.log"
Found local metadata for bzip2-1.0.6.20140317
Attempting to download package bzip2-1.0.6.20140317
>>> Trying to download http:
//www.sagemath.org/packages/upstream/bzip2/bzip2-1.0.6.20140317.tar.gz
[Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "", line 35, in 
  File "/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/python/urllib.py", line 
240, in retrieve
fp = self.open(url, data)
  File "/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/python/urllib.py", line 
208, in open
return getattr(self, name)(url)
  File "/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/python/urllib.py", line 
359, in open_http
return self.http_error(url, fp, errcode, errmsg, headers)
  File "/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/lib/python/urllib.py", line 
376, in http_error
return self.http_error_default(url, fp, errcode, errmsg, headers)
  File "", line 17, in http_error_default
IOError: [Errno 404] Not Found: 
'//www.sagemath.org/packages/upstream/bzip2/bzip2-1.0.6.20140317.tar.gz'
Error: failed to download package bzip2-1.0.6.20140317
make[2]: *** [/Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/var/lib/sage/installed/
bzip2-1.0.6.20140317] Error 1
make[1]: *** [all] Error 2

real0m8.869s
user0m1.960s
sys0m2.425s
***
Error building Sage.

The following package(s) may have failed to build:

package: bzip2-1.0.6.20140317
log file: /Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/logs/pkgs/bzip2-1.0.6.20140317.log
build directory: /Volumes/datanew/local/sage-6.8/local/var/tmp/sage/build/
bzip2-1.0.6.20140317


Sure enough, if I try to wget that location 
(https://www.sagemath.org/packages/upstream/bzip2/bzip2-1.0.6.20140317.tar.gz), 
I get a 404 error.

Bill

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Re: [sage-devel] how should the expression relation test be named?

[William Stein]

On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 9:31 AM, Ralf Stephan  wrote:
> Symbolic expressions are tested for zero with bool(ex) at the moment,
> regardless if one wants to know if ex is identical with the zero object
> or if one wants a simplification of ex (which is slow).
>
> Because a finer-grained interface is needed that does not surprise the
> user I would like to have your opinion how the function should be
> named that attempts a simplification/proof.
>
> [ ] - ex.holds() and holds(ex)
> [ ] - ex.truth() and truth(ex)
> [ ] - your idea: ...
>
> Thanks in advance for your opinion!

So you want to name a function that tests whether or not ex is
"identical with the zero object".  What about

   ex.is_zero_object()

or

  ex.is_identical_to_zero()

or

  ex.is_zero(simplify=False)
  ex.is_zero(simplify=True)

-- William


>
> You can see the bigger picture with code at:
> http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19040
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
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-- 
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Re: [sage-devel] how should the expression relation test be named?

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 09/23/2015 12:31 PM, Ralf Stephan wrote:
> Symbolic expressions are tested for zero with bool(ex) at the moment,
> regardless if one wants to know if ex is identical with the zero object
> or if one wants a simplification of ex (which is slow).
> 
> Because a finer-grained interface is needed that does not surprise the
> user I would like to have your opinion how the function should be
> named that attempts a simplification/proof.
> 

Doesn't `bool(x == y)` already try to simplify `x - y` to zero?

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: About abbreviation in function names

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 11:10:46 UTC-7, Jeroen Demeyer wrote:
>
> On 2015-09-23 19:43, Dima Pasechnik wrote: 
> > There are well-accepted abbreviations in various areas of maths, e.g. 
> > ILP for Integer Linear Programming. 
>
> Let me answer this with a real life anecdote: 
>
> When I was a young graduate student, I attended some seminar. Literally 
> the first sentence of the talk was "Let R be a D.V.R.". The speaker said 
> the abbreviation "D.V.R.". I couldn't understand anything of the 
> introduction and only after 10 minutes or so, I realized that the talk 
> was about discrete valuation rings, a concept which I knew. So, 
> "well-accepted" is not the same as "known by everybody". 
>

I don't buy it, for lectures are often much less interactive compared to 
using Sage.
We're talking about being able to have 

rings.integral_domains.DVR()
instead of 
rings.integral_domains.DiscreteValuationRing()

(well, we don't have rings.TAB, but we do have graphs.TAB, with plenty of 
graphs.BlahBlahGraph() there)



> Jeroen. 
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: About abbreviation in function names

[John H Palmieri]

On Wednesday, September 23, 2015 at 10:43:43 AM UTC-7, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 10:32:08 UTC-7, Thierry 
> (sage-googlesucks@xxx) wrote:
>>
>> Hi, 
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 06:46:10PM +0200, Jeroen Demeyer wrote: 
>> > On 2015-09-23 18:44, Dima Pasechnik wrote: 
>> > >one has to draw a line somewhere; 40-symbol names must be forbidden 
>> > >outright, and 20-symbol names ought to be 
>> > >avoided  without a very good reasons to the contrary... 
>> > 
>> > On the other hand, with TAB-completion, that doesn't really matter so 
>> much. 
>>
>> Note that adding abbreviations actually *breaks* tab-completion and turns 
>> out to be counter-productive: 
>>
>> sage: a = 0.1 
>> sage: a.alg 
>>
>> Here, the pseudo-faster 'algdep' breaks the autocompletion of 
>> algebraic_dependency, and makes both algdep and algebraic_dependency 
>> slower to find, for no benefit. 
>>
>
> I don't think this thread is about adding abbreviations for function 
> names, it's about
> the names themselves.
>
> There are well-accepted abbreviations in various areas of maths, e.g. ILP 
> for Integer Linear Programming.
> Would it be acceptable to have ILP rather than LinearProgramming in a 
> function name, e.g.
> BlahFooByILP rather than BlahFooByIntegerLinearProgramming ?
>

In my opinion, "BlahFooByILP" would be okay as long as the unabbreviated 
phrase "Integer Linear Programming" is mentioned early and prominently in 
the docstring. "This does Blah Foo using integer linear programming (ILP)". 
It is important in my answer that "BlahFooByILP" doesn't interfere much 
with tab completion. If you had asked about "ILP_BlahFoo" vs. 
"IntegerLinearProgramming_BlahFoo", I might prefer the second.

On the other hand, if someone wants to search for methods, functions, 
classes, etc., which use linear programming, they might do

  sage: search_def('linear', 'program')

and get some hits. They may not think to do

   sage: search_def('ilp')

This argues against using abbreviations much.

-- 
John

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: About abbreviation in function names

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 11:09:25 UTC-7, Jori Mäntysalo wrote:
>
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2015, Dima Pasechnik wrote: 
>
> > Posets.DoD() ? 
>
> DoD? 
>
google "Pentagon" :) 

>
> And should it be PartiallyOrderedSets.*? :=) 
>
> -- 
> Jori Mäntysalo 
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: About abbreviation in function names

[Travis Scrimshaw]

On Wednesday, September 23, 2015 at 1:09:25 PM UTC-5, Jori Mäntysalo wrote:
>
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2015, Dima Pasechnik wrote: 
>
> > Posets.DoD() ? 
>
> DoD? 
>
> Department of Defense. Although my first thought was "Day of Defeat"...

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: About abbreviation in function names

[Jeroen Demeyer]

On 2015-09-23 19:43, Dima Pasechnik wrote:

There are well-accepted abbreviations in various areas of maths, e.g.
ILP for Integer Linear Programming.


Let me answer this with a real life anecdote:

When I was a young graduate student, I attended some seminar. Literally 
the first sentence of the talk was "Let R be a D.V.R.". The speaker said 
the abbreviation "D.V.R.". I couldn't understand anything of the 
introduction and only after 10 minutes or so, I realized that the talk 
was about discrete valuation rings, a concept which I knew. So, 
"well-accepted" is not the same as "known by everybody".


Jeroen.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: About abbreviation in function names

[Jori Mäntysalo]

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015, Dima Pasechnik wrote:


Posets.DoD() ?


DoD?

And should it be PartiallyOrderedSets.*? :=)

--
Jori Mäntysalo

Re: [sage-devel] Re: About abbreviation in function names

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 10:32:08 UTC-7, Thierry 
(sage-googlesucks@xxx) wrote:
>
> Hi, 
>
> On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 06:46:10PM +0200, Jeroen Demeyer wrote: 
> > On 2015-09-23 18:44, Dima Pasechnik wrote: 
> > >one has to draw a line somewhere; 40-symbol names must be forbidden 
> > >outright, and 20-symbol names ought to be 
> > >avoided  without a very good reasons to the contrary... 
> > 
> > On the other hand, with TAB-completion, that doesn't really matter so 
> much. 
>
> Note that adding abbreviations actually *breaks* tab-completion and turns 
> out to be counter-productive: 
>
> sage: a = 0.1 
> sage: a.alg 
>
> Here, the pseudo-faster 'algdep' breaks the autocompletion of 
> algebraic_dependency, and makes both algdep and algebraic_dependency 
> slower to find, for no benefit. 
>

I don't think this thread is about adding abbreviations for function names, 
it's about
the names themselves.

There are well-accepted abbreviations in various areas of maths, e.g. ILP 
for Integer Linear Programming.
Would it be acceptable to have ILP rather than LinearProgramming in a 
function name, e.g.
BlahFooByILP rather than BlahFooByIntegerLinearProgramming ?




> Ciao, 
> Thierry 
>
>
> > 
> > -- 
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> > 
> > 
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: About abbreviation in function names

[Thierry]

Hi,

On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 06:46:10PM +0200, Jeroen Demeyer wrote:
> On 2015-09-23 18:44, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
> >one has to draw a line somewhere; 40-symbol names must be forbidden
> >outright, and 20-symbol names ought to be
> >avoided  without a very good reasons to the contrary...
> 
> On the other hand, with TAB-completion, that doesn't really matter so much.

Note that adding abbreviations actually *breaks* tab-completion and turns
out to be counter-productive:

sage: a = 0.1
sage: a.alg

Here, the pseudo-faster 'algdep' breaks the autocompletion of
algebraic_dependency, and makes both algdep and algebraic_dependency
slower to find, for no benefit.

Ciao,
Thierry


> 
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> 
> 

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[sage-devel] Re: About abbreviation in function names

[Simon King]

On 2015-09-23, Jori =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E4ntysalo?=  wrote:
> Maybe for native english speakers it is easier to read abbreviations. At 
> least we should not use something like 'sublats' for 'sublattices' and so 
> on. On the other hand (as I have said before), Posets.PentagonPoset() 
> could just be Posets.Pentagon().

+1

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Re: [sage-devel] SSL

[Thierry]

Hi,


On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 06:56:41PM +0200, Jan Groenewald wrote:
[...]
> Basic question: What does it take to enable SSL? Do those commands work on
> 1) source build

On Debian/Ubuntu just install 'libssl-dev' before building, and 'openssl'
before running.

> 2) binary (LTS)

Sage is compiled with ssl support, so just install 'openssl' before
running.

> 3) PPA

It depends whether you use a binary that is built with or without
openssl. If yes, go to 2, if not:

sage -i openssl
sage -i -f python2

Ciao,
Thierry

> 
> Regards,
> Jan

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[sage-devel] Re: About abbreviation in function names

[Simon King]

On 2015-09-23, Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
> Do we have a vim plugin that will do these tab-completions for you?

Since recently I use geany, and when writing C or Python or Cython code
it gives rather decent name completion.

Cheers,
Simon

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: About abbreviation in function names

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 10:00:33 UTC-7, Jori Mäntysalo wrote:
>
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2015, Dima Pasechnik wrote: 
>
> > one has to draw a line somewhere; 40-symbol names must be forbidden 
> > outright, and 20-symbol names ought to be 
> > avoided  without a very good reasons to the contrary... 
>
> True. 
>
> Maybe for native english speakers it is easier to read abbreviations. At 
> least we should not use something like 'sublats' for 'sublattices' and so 
> on. On the other hand (as I have said before), Posets.PentagonPoset() 
> could just be Posets.Pentagon(). 
>
Posets.DoD() ?

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: About abbreviation in function names

[Jori Mäntysalo]

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015, Dima Pasechnik wrote:


one has to draw a line somewhere; 40-symbol names must be forbidden
outright, and 20-symbol names ought to be
avoided  without a very good reasons to the contrary...


True.

Maybe for native english speakers it is easier to read abbreviations. At 
least we should not use something like 'sublats' for 'sublattices' and so 
on. On the other hand (as I have said before), Posets.PentagonPoset() 
could just be Posets.Pentagon().


--
Jori Mäntysalo

Re: [sage-devel] Re: About abbreviation in function names

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 09:46:15 UTC-7, Jeroen Demeyer wrote:
>
> On 2015-09-23 18:44, Dima Pasechnik wrote: 
> > one has to draw a line somewhere; 40-symbol names must be forbidden 
> > outright, and 20-symbol names ought to be 
> > avoided  without a very good reasons to the contrary... 
>
> On the other hand, with TAB-completion, that doesn't really matter so 
> much. 
>

Ohh yeah, to Hell with all attempts to bring in meaningful namespaces 
etc... ;-) 
The ideal program is one that fits in one name:
InitialiseAndDoStuffAndBackTrackOrAbortElseBarf(), 
just as the ideal haiku needs only one character...

Do we have a vim plugin that will do these tab-completions for you?
Anyhow, the code starts looking as  if is written in Java or in German (no 
offence to Germans here :-))
as opposed to normal sensible readable ways...

 

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[sage-devel] Re: SSL

[Jan Groenewald]

When replying, please exclude sage-release.

Regards,
Jan

On 23 September 2015 at 18:56, Jan Groenewald  wrote:

> Hi
>
> I'm not sure. Can we move this thread to sage-devel and ask there?
>
> This was more about getting at least a working PPA out. I will follow on
> sage-devel though.
>
> Basic question: What does it take to enable SSL? Do those commands work on
> 1) source build
> 2) binary (LTS)
> 3) PPA
>
> Regards,
> Jan
>
> On 23 September 2015 at 18:53, Henri Girard 
> wrote:
>
>> You said it could be easy to integrate ssl can you tell me how to do ?
>> sage - f python works in your version but while trying to run it, it
>> doesn't work and I alway get ssl missing.
>> But if you haven't time don't worry I still can use ubuntu version. Just
>> to see if it would work and integrate ssl
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 23/09/2015 18:43, Jan Groenewald a écrit :
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> What is Sage 6.8 LTS?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jan
>>
>> On 23 September 2015 at 18:42, Henri Girard 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I noticed something : Your version compile python sage -f python
>>> sage 6.8 LTS failed sage -f python
>>> Now I will try make and see if it works
>>> Regards
>>> Henri
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 23/09/2015 17:43, Jan Groenewald a écrit :
>>>
>>> The same working package is now uploading to the stable PPA. It is
>>> already in the dev PPA. We will probably next week turn on weekly
>>> autouploads to the dev PPA. And then release whenever there is a new sage
>>> and it is ready, to the stable PPA.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Jan
>>>
>>> On 23 September 2015 at 17:41, Jan Groenewald < 
>>> j...@aims.ac.za> wrote:
>>>
 Hi

 I think that it now works because our latest PPA package includes all
 the build/bin folder in /usr/lib/sagemath.
 Then when you have libssl-dev installed and do sudo sage -f python it
 is installed with ssl. I'm guessing though.

 Regards,
 Jan

 On 23 September 2015 at 17:00, Henri Girard < 
 henri.gir...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In fact we must obtain (sagemanifolds and I... maybe more...(I guess
> but i don't want to speak in name of Eric) the following : sage
> --notebook=ipython so we have access to sage kernel.
> With the following link you sent to me it works. Apparently ssl is
> inside or at least it doesn't ask for !
>   I too installed all the libs you mentioned. But no way to get the
> deb working (pity but not dramatic), I have to install it by hand sudo mv
> sage /usr/share/sage and sudo ln -s /usr/share/sage/sage /usr/bin/sage
> (before delete sage in bin sudo rm /usr/bin/sage), but that's not ubuntu
> original installation : /usr/lib/sagemath (but it's helping me when
> something get wrong like at the moment !), so I have two sage installed in
> different location and when there is a problem I connect to the working
> version.
> Anticipating a little wily seems to have problems with dir path python
> but I might be working properly when ready.
> Anyway thanks for your great job. For me it's not too annoying and I
> don't want to give you more work than necessary, it's a only a whish that
> maybe others can have. I am not qualified enaugh to tell you what's the
> problem with ssl (In my opinion it's more a problem of right or directory
> than ssl as I have put all lib ?)
> Kind regards
> Henri
>
>
>
> Le 23/09/2015 11:42, Jan Groenewald a écrit :
>
> Hi
>
> On 23 September 2015 at 10:40, Henri Girard < 
> henri.gir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I just test it, ssl is always lacking
>> But I am not sure this is the reason because libssl-dev is installed.
>> Why not put in deb the sage-6.8 LTS, I installed it and it works
>> (that's just a suggestion, but sorry if it's a bad idea ?)
>> Before I could compile sage but now I got errors that's why I like
>> your deb and it's automatically updated.
>>
>
> I think due to other problems on many platforms the ssl is disabled by
> default in the Sage binaries.  Other sage developers are more qualified to
> discuss that and answer that.
>
> What is the "sage 6.8 LTS"?  Do you mean include something other than
> 
> http://sagemath.mirror.ac.za/linux/64bit/Ubuntu_14.04_LTS_sage-6.8-x86_64-Linux.tar.lrz
> in the PPA? Or do you mean depend on libssl-dev and include a rebuilt sage
> with pyopenssl in the deb? I coudl then be introducing errors/bugs to the
> downstream users if I include a rebuilt python with ssl. I want to confirm
> that it is possible though, with one or two lines, to add SSL capability.
>
> Our (AIMS) main use case, by the way, is standalone laptop installs,
> that can work offline, so we use a per-user installation, not a multi-user
> server, so the https is irrelevant for us. I'd like to stay close to the
> upstream wi

[sage-devel] SSL

[Jan Groenewald]

Hi

I'm not sure. Can we move this thread to sage-devel and ask there?

This was more about getting at least a working PPA out. I will follow on
sage-devel though.

Basic question: What does it take to enable SSL? Do those commands work on
1) source build
2) binary (LTS)
3) PPA

Regards,
Jan

On 23 September 2015 at 18:53, Henri Girard  wrote:

> You said it could be easy to integrate ssl can you tell me how to do ?
> sage - f python works in your version but while trying to run it, it
> doesn't work and I alway get ssl missing.
> But if you haven't time don't worry I still can use ubuntu version. Just
> to see if it would work and integrate ssl
>
>
>
> Le 23/09/2015 18:43, Jan Groenewald a écrit :
>
> Hi
>
> What is Sage 6.8 LTS?
>
> Regards,
> Jan
>
> On 23 September 2015 at 18:42, Henri Girard 
> wrote:
>
>> I noticed something : Your version compile python sage -f python
>> sage 6.8 LTS failed sage -f python
>> Now I will try make and see if it works
>> Regards
>> Henri
>>
>>
>> Le 23/09/2015 17:43, Jan Groenewald a écrit :
>>
>> The same working package is now uploading to the stable PPA. It is
>> already in the dev PPA. We will probably next week turn on weekly
>> autouploads to the dev PPA. And then release whenever there is a new sage
>> and it is ready, to the stable PPA.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jan
>>
>> On 23 September 2015 at 17:41, Jan Groenewald < 
>> j...@aims.ac.za> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> I think that it now works because our latest PPA package includes all
>>> the build/bin folder in /usr/lib/sagemath.
>>> Then when you have libssl-dev installed and do sudo sage -f python it is
>>> installed with ssl. I'm guessing though.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Jan
>>>
>>> On 23 September 2015 at 17:00, Henri Girard < 
>>> henri.gir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 In fact we must obtain (sagemanifolds and I... maybe more...(I guess
 but i don't want to speak in name of Eric) the following : sage
 --notebook=ipython so we have access to sage kernel.
 With the following link you sent to me it works. Apparently ssl is
 inside or at least it doesn't ask for !
   I too installed all the libs you mentioned. But no way to get the deb
 working (pity but not dramatic), I have to install it by hand sudo mv sage
 /usr/share/sage and sudo ln -s /usr/share/sage/sage /usr/bin/sage (before
 delete sage in bin sudo rm /usr/bin/sage), but that's not ubuntu original
 installation : /usr/lib/sagemath (but it's helping me when something get
 wrong like at the moment !), so I have two sage installed in different
 location and when there is a problem I connect to the working version.
 Anticipating a little wily seems to have problems with dir path python
 but I might be working properly when ready.
 Anyway thanks for your great job. For me it's not too annoying and I
 don't want to give you more work than necessary, it's a only a whish that
 maybe others can have. I am not qualified enaugh to tell you what's the
 problem with ssl (In my opinion it's more a problem of right or directory
 than ssl as I have put all lib ?)
 Kind regards
 Henri



 Le 23/09/2015 11:42, Jan Groenewald a écrit :

 Hi

 On 23 September 2015 at 10:40, Henri Girard < 
 henri.gir...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I just test it, ssl is always lacking
> But I am not sure this is the reason because libssl-dev is installed.
> Why not put in deb the sage-6.8 LTS, I installed it and it works
> (that's just a suggestion, but sorry if it's a bad idea ?)
> Before I could compile sage but now I got errors that's why I like
> your deb and it's automatically updated.
>

 I think due to other problems on many platforms the ssl is disabled by
 default in the Sage binaries.  Other sage developers are more qualified to
 discuss that and answer that.

 What is the "sage 6.8 LTS"?  Do you mean include something other than
 
 http://sagemath.mirror.ac.za/linux/64bit/Ubuntu_14.04_LTS_sage-6.8-x86_64-Linux.tar.lrz
 in the PPA? Or do you mean depend on libssl-dev and include a rebuilt sage
 with pyopenssl in the deb? I coudl then be introducing errors/bugs to the
 downstream users if I include a rebuilt python with ssl. I want to confirm
 that it is possible though, with one or two lines, to add SSL capability.

 Our (AIMS) main use case, by the way, is standalone laptop installs,
 that can work offline, so we use a per-user installation, not a multi-user
 server, so the https is irrelevant for us. I'd like to stay close to the
 upstream with the PPA. We do however have students ssh from a laptop into
 their own account on a campus desktop to use a notebook on a more powerful
 machine or just to access their worksheets conveniently from their rooms.

 Right now we cannot on the

[sage-devel] Re: What can we assume about our C compiler

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 08:19:54 UTC-7, Ralf Stephan wrote:
>
> So, assuming gcc-4.7 (or equivalent) is needed by a package, what problems 
> are
> to be expected? Linux is fine, but other supported systems?
>

Other? OSX is the only other, and it comes with a broken native compiler 
lately, anyway.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: About abbreviation in function names

[Jeroen Demeyer]

On 2015-09-23 18:44, Dima Pasechnik wrote:

one has to draw a line somewhere; 40-symbol names must be forbidden
outright, and 20-symbol names ought to be
avoided  without a very good reasons to the contrary...


On the other hand, with TAB-completion, that doesn't really matter so much.

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[sage-devel] Re: About abbreviation in function names

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 09:25:51 UTC-7, Nathann Cohen wrote:
>
> Hello everybody, 
>
> What is our policy with respect to abbreviations in fuctions/methods? 
>
> I believe that we "tried to avoid them", but it does not seem to be 
> written anywhere in the developer's manual. 
>

one has to draw a line somewhere; 40-symbol names must be forbidden 
outright, and 20-symbol names ought to be
avoided  without a very good reasons to the contrary...

Long-naming decease is reaching epidemic proportions in some parts of sage, 
where we have 
blah.FooBarBlah all over the place, whereas blah.FooBar is shorter and 
carries as much info
then the current form.




> Nathann 
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: What can we assume about our C compiler

[Jeroen Demeyer]

On 2015-09-23 17:19, Ralf Stephan wrote:

So, assuming gcc-4.7 (or equivalent) is needed by a package, what
problems are to be expected?

None.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: SPKG Maintainers??

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 09:33:55 UTC-7, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 08:04:28 UTC-7, Nathann Cohen wrote:
>>
>> I am  feeling inclined to open a trac ticket with the purpose of going 
>>> through everyhting I have written in the Sage library and making sure 
>>> that there's an AUTHOR block with my name on it wherever appropriate! 
>>> And if all current developers would do the same 
>>>
>>
>> We can do it semi-automatically:
>>
>> For every function that does not have an 'AUTHOR' block we can initialize 
>> one with the list of authors obtained from 'git blame' applied to this 
>> function.
>>
>
> while this is silly,
>
I mean, having an AUTHOR block for every function in the source.

But the following is not:
 

> it's possible to write a Sage function which will provide such a list, by 
> analysing the history via 'git blame'.
> (contrary to what several people on this thread seem to assume, git blame 
> can provide you full history...)
>
> Dima
>
>  
>
>>
>> Nathann
>>
>> P.S.: for me it is clearly a joke, and I would be alarmed if anybody 
>> thought that it actually makes sense.
>>
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: SPKG Maintainers??

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 08:04:28 UTC-7, Nathann Cohen wrote:
>
> I am  feeling inclined to open a trac ticket with the purpose of going 
>> through everyhting I have written in the Sage library and making sure 
>> that there's an AUTHOR block with my name on it wherever appropriate! 
>> And if all current developers would do the same 
>>
>
> We can do it semi-automatically:
>
> For every function that does not have an 'AUTHOR' block we can initialize 
> one with the list of authors obtained from 'git blame' applied to this 
> function.
>

while this is silly, it's possible to write a Sage function which will 
provide such a list, by analysing the history via 'git blame'.
(contrary to what several people on this thread seem to assume, git blame 
can provide you full history...)

Dima

 

>
> Nathann
>
> P.S.: for me it is clearly a joke, and I would be alarmed if anybody 
> thought that it actually makes sense.
>

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[sage-devel] how should the expression relation test be named?

[Ralf Stephan]

Symbolic expressions are tested for zero with bool(ex) at the moment,
regardless if one wants to know if ex is identical with the zero object
or if one wants a simplification of ex (which is slow).

Because a finer-grained interface is needed that does not surprise the
user I would like to have your opinion how the function should be
named that attempts a simplification/proof.

[ ] - ex.holds() and holds(ex)
[ ] - ex.truth() and truth(ex)
[ ] - your idea: ...

Thanks in advance for your opinion!

You can see the bigger picture with code at:
http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19040

Regards,



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[sage-devel] About abbreviation in function names

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello everybody,

What is our policy with respect to abbreviations in fuctions/methods?

I believe that we "tried to avoid them", but it does not seem to be
written anywhere in the developer's manual.

Nathann

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: SPKG Maintainers??

[kcrisman]

> I am  feeling inclined to open a trac ticket with the purpose of going 
>> through everyhting I have written in the Sage library and making sure 
>> that there's an AUTHOR block with my name on it wherever appropriate! 
>> And if all current developers would do the same 
>>
>
> We can do it semi-automatically:
>
> For every function that does not have an 'AUTHOR' block we can initialize 
> one with the list of authors obtained from 'git blame' applied to this 
> function.
>
> Nathann
>
> P.S.: for me it is clearly a joke, and I would be alarmed if anybody 
> thought that it actually makes sense.
>

But it would be so fun to review all those tickets!  And they wouldn't 
overlap at all! 

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[sage-devel] Re: What can we assume about our C compiler

[Ralf Stephan]

So, assuming gcc-4.7 (or equivalent) is needed by a package, what problems 
are
to be expected? Linux is fine, but other supported systems?

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: SPKG Maintainers??

[Nathann Cohen]

>
> I am  feeling inclined to open a trac ticket with the purpose of going 
> through everyhting I have written in the Sage library and making sure 
> that there's an AUTHOR block with my name on it wherever appropriate! 
> And if all current developers would do the same 
>

We can do it semi-automatically:

For every function that does not have an 'AUTHOR' block we can initialize 
one with the list of authors obtained from 'git blame' applied to this 
function.

Nathann

P.S.: for me it is clearly a joke, and I would be alarmed if anybody 
thought that it actually makes sense.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: SPKG Maintainers??

[John Cremona]

I am  feeling inclined to open a trac ticket with the purpose of going
through everyhting I have written in the Sage library and making sure
that there's an AUTHOR block with my name on it wherever appropriate!
And if all current developers would do the same

John

On 23 September 2015 at 03:08, Nathann Cohen  wrote:
>> This argument is unconvincing to me; it's too black and white.  You
>> could also make the same argument about the majority of content in
>> every research paper ever written.  Just because "people" do things
>> doesn't automatically imply that what they do is not even remotely
>> correct.   And our extensive testing framework in Sage -- which at
>> least helps -- doesn't at all imply that the code in Sage is correct.
>
> You may not like the argument, but appreciate at least the current
> status: it is far from being reliable in any way.
>
> That is is *because* it is maintained manually is my opinion of it,
> but does not change the current status.
>
> Though you cannot ignore it totally either: we don't all manage those
> authors blocks the same way, plus we have different opinions about
> it... I don't see it work anytime soon unless it becomes mandatory
> like the 'author' field in a trac ticket.
>
> And, again, the same way that we removed changelogs from SPKG.txt
> files, let's not have a changelog in every function.
>
> Nathann
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: SPKG Maintainers??

[Nathann Cohen]

> This argument is unconvincing to me; it's too black and white.  You
> could also make the same argument about the majority of content in
> every research paper ever written.  Just because "people" do things
> doesn't automatically imply that what they do is not even remotely
> correct.   And our extensive testing framework in Sage -- which at
> least helps -- doesn't at all imply that the code in Sage is correct.

You may not like the argument, but appreciate at least the current
status: it is far from being reliable in any way.

That is is *because* it is maintained manually is my opinion of it,
but does not change the current status.

Though you cannot ignore it totally either: we don't all manage those
authors blocks the same way, plus we have different opinions about
it... I don't see it work anytime soon unless it becomes mandatory
like the 'author' field in a trac ticket.

And, again, the same way that we removed changelogs from SPKG.txt
files, let's not have a changelog in every function.

Nathann

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