[sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Bill Janssen]

It's hard to sufficiently emphasize how ugly this looks in an Emacs shell 
buffer.  I use the Inconsolata font with emacs, and it doesn't have those 
characters (the dashes and corner characters), so Emacs goes to a different 
fixed-width font for them, and that font has a different width, so the 
horizontal dashes are about twice the width of the text lines!  I just turn 
it off by setting SAGE_BANNER to "no".

Bill

On Friday, August 2, 2013 at 6:49:21 PM UTC-7, Volker Braun wrote:
>
> Its always hard to please everybody, We haven't really reached any 
> consensus, nor does it sound like there is much to be gained by further 
> discussion. So i'll set the ticket to positive review and leave you with 
> Lichtenberg's aphorism: 
>
> Ich weiss nicht, ob es besser wird, wenn es anders wird. Aber es muss 
> anders werden, wenn es besser werden soll.
>
> (I don't know if it'll become better if it is changed. But it must be 
> changed to become better.)
>
>
>
>

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[sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Volker Braun]

Its always hard to please everybody, We haven't really reached any 
consensus, nor does it sound like there is much to be gained by further 
discussion. So i'll set the ticket to positive review and leave you with 
Lichtenberg's aphorism: 

Ich weiss nicht, ob es besser wird, wenn es anders wird. Aber es muss 
anders werden, wenn es besser werden soll.

(I don't know if it'll become better if it is changed. But it must be 
changed to become better.)



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[sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Keshav Kini]

William Stein  writes:
> Also, UTF is clearly the future of strings, having native default
> support in modern interpreters, editors, etc., and also being critical
> to supporting users who aren't using English.

Maybe one day Sage will support something like agda-input-method in
Emacs :)

-Keshav

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Volker Braun]

Although (perhaps?) surprising, some languages don't have spaces and 
require zero-width space to designate word boundaries for line breaks.


On Friday, July 26, 2013 3:02:41 PM UTC-4, Robert Bradshaw wrote:
>
> At the very least, lets be careful to avoid fancy invisible unicode 
> characters: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sage-devel/LjC75cae7XI 
>
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Robert Bradshaw]

At the very least, lets be careful to avoid fancy invisible unicode
characters: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sage-devel/LjC75cae7XI

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:52 PM, William Stein  wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Robert Bradshaw
>  wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 1:55 AM, Julien Puydt 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Le 08/07/2013 10:51, Nils Bruin a écrit :

 On Monday, July 8, 2013 4:05:29 AM UTC+2, Volker Braun wrote:

 Frédéric Chapoton has written a patch at
 http://trac.sagemath.org/14733  that

 will beautify the Sage startup banner using some UTF-8 characters to
 draw the box. This will display incorrectly in terminals that do not
 support UTF-8. In that case, Sage still works but the box around the
 banner is garbled (most likely rendered by placeholder signs for
 non-ASCII characters).


 -1 to a UTF-8 banner. There's hardly anything in the sage command line
 that requires a UTF-8 capable terminal (all the colour stuff should shut
 off automatically for a "dumb" terminal). Why require it for *just* the
 banner?

 More personally, I dislike the UTF-8 banner because it looks too nice.
 To me it doesn't fit with the simple prompt-and-return-value interface
 (see banners of magma, maple, R, matlab, pari/GP, python, IPython, GAP,
 Singular). The "graphics" looking lines are more suggestive of a
 menu-driven interface to me, like the text-based "dialog" interfaces. So
 to me, the "+-|"-built borders raise expectations more appropriate for
 what sage command line offers.
>>>
>>>
>>> -1 too for the same reasons.
>>>
>>> Keep the banner short and simple ; people don't come to sage to enjoy that
>>> sight!
>>
>>
>> I agree, no need to have fancy unicode here. If you're doing something that
>> requires nice output you should probably be using a notebook interface
>> anyways; the CLI interface just isn't going to go there and going part way
>> is worse than just keeping things simple.
>
> I used the patch, and I think it is beautiful.  I completely disagree
> with the comments such as " I dislike the UTF-8 banner because it
> looks too nice." and "Keep the banner short and simple ; people don't
> come to sage to enjoy that sight!"Clean beauty is exactly what
> people (at least me!) want in software.  The banner in Sage right now,
> which I probably wrote (?), looks frankly ugly and like a hack,
> compared to the one on this patch.
>
> Also, UTF is clearly the future of strings, having native default
> support in modern interpreters, editors, etc., and also being critical
> to supporting users who aren't using English.
>
> This patch is along the same lines as the recent inclusion of a nice
> color prompt (thanks Volker)  in that it makes Sage prettier and more
> pleasant to use.
>
> So my strong vote *for* this ticket.  Moreover, I like it so much I'll
> be henceforth applying it to the standard system-wide version of Sage
> at https://cloud.sagemath.com, even if it doesn't get into Sage.
> In particular, I disagree with " If you're doing something that
> requires nice output you should probably be using a notebook interface
> anyways" -- since the terminal interface *is* part of the notebook
> interface now, and it must look nice.
>
>  -- William
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[William Stein]

On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Robert Bradshaw
 wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 1:55 AM, Julien Puydt 
> wrote:
>>
>> Le 08/07/2013 10:51, Nils Bruin a écrit :
>>>
>>> On Monday, July 8, 2013 4:05:29 AM UTC+2, Volker Braun wrote:
>>>
>>> Frédéric Chapoton has written a patch at
>>> http://trac.sagemath.org/14733  that
>>>
>>> will beautify the Sage startup banner using some UTF-8 characters to
>>> draw the box. This will display incorrectly in terminals that do not
>>> support UTF-8. In that case, Sage still works but the box around the
>>> banner is garbled (most likely rendered by placeholder signs for
>>> non-ASCII characters).
>>>
>>>
>>> -1 to a UTF-8 banner. There's hardly anything in the sage command line
>>> that requires a UTF-8 capable terminal (all the colour stuff should shut
>>> off automatically for a "dumb" terminal). Why require it for *just* the
>>> banner?
>>>
>>> More personally, I dislike the UTF-8 banner because it looks too nice.
>>> To me it doesn't fit with the simple prompt-and-return-value interface
>>> (see banners of magma, maple, R, matlab, pari/GP, python, IPython, GAP,
>>> Singular). The "graphics" looking lines are more suggestive of a
>>> menu-driven interface to me, like the text-based "dialog" interfaces. So
>>> to me, the "+-|"-built borders raise expectations more appropriate for
>>> what sage command line offers.
>>
>>
>> -1 too for the same reasons.
>>
>> Keep the banner short and simple ; people don't come to sage to enjoy that
>> sight!
>
>
> I agree, no need to have fancy unicode here. If you're doing something that
> requires nice output you should probably be using a notebook interface
> anyways; the CLI interface just isn't going to go there and going part way
> is worse than just keeping things simple.

I used the patch, and I think it is beautiful.  I completely disagree
with the comments such as " I dislike the UTF-8 banner because it
looks too nice." and "Keep the banner short and simple ; people don't
come to sage to enjoy that sight!"Clean beauty is exactly what
people (at least me!) want in software.  The banner in Sage right now,
which I probably wrote (?), looks frankly ugly and like a hack,
compared to the one on this patch.

Also, UTF is clearly the future of strings, having native default
support in modern interpreters, editors, etc., and also being critical
to supporting users who aren't using English.

This patch is along the same lines as the recent inclusion of a nice
color prompt (thanks Volker)  in that it makes Sage prettier and more
pleasant to use.

So my strong vote *for* this ticket.  Moreover, I like it so much I'll
be henceforth applying it to the standard system-wide version of Sage
at https://cloud.sagemath.com, even if it doesn't get into Sage.
In particular, I disagree with " If you're doing something that
requires nice output you should probably be using a notebook interface
anyways" -- since the terminal interface *is* part of the notebook
interface now, and it must look nice.

 -- William

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[sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Volker Braun]

Since evidently nobody who weighted in so far has actually tried the patch, 
here are screenshots of a few different terminals:

http://boxen.math.washington.edu/home/vbraun/UTF8/

In particular, Putty works beautifully if you set it to UTF-8. And if you 
don't then you can still use Sage just fine, but it'll be clear from the 
banner that you are using the wrong encoding.  


On Wednesday, July 10, 2013 5:09:26 PM UTC-4, Dima Pasechnik wrote:

> well, it gives me a headache to even think of what happens when one does 
> ssh to a Windows host, running Sage with Cygwin, and how different 
> Cygwin terminals behave wrt UTF-8.


Again, the UTF-8 bytestream cannot be misinterpreted as terminal escape 
sequence, this is one of the main features of UTF-8. If your terminal 
doesn't know about UTF-8 then it'll display a high bit character (0x80 - 
0xff) which will generally be some accented letter. By design, this is the 
worst that can happen if you have a broken terminal.

 

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[sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Dima Pasechnik]

On 2013-07-10, Volker Braun  wrote:
> --=_Part_2978_26839636.1373472114217
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Wednesday, July 10, 2013 10:27:08 AM UTC-4, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
>> ssh from strange terminals often garbles any kind of ascii art, leave 
>> alone being UTF-8 clean etc. 
>> I've been doing "export TERM=vt100" much too much to trust 
>> these things. 
>>
>
> Do you actually have an example or are you just hypothesizing? 

well, it gives me a headache to even think of what happens when one does
ssh to a Windows host, running Sage with Cygwin, and how different
Cygwin terminals behave wrt UTF-8.  Or what happens when one runs a
weird ssh implementation on Windows to connect to a Linux host running
Sage, which is a common scenario...


> TERM 
> settings and UTF-8 are completely orthogonal issues. In particular, the 
> UTF-8 bytestream cannot be mis-interpreted as an ansi escape sequence by 
> dumb terminals, which is one of the reasons for using UTF-8 in the first 
> place.
>

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[sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Volker Braun]

On Wednesday, July 10, 2013 10:27:08 AM UTC-4, Dima Pasechnik wrote:

> ssh from strange terminals often garbles any kind of ascii art, leave 
> alone being UTF-8 clean etc. 
> I've been doing "export TERM=vt100" much too much to trust 
> these things. 
>

Do you actually have an example or are you just hypothesizing? TERM 
settings and UTF-8 are completely orthogonal issues. In particular, the 
UTF-8 bytestream cannot be mis-interpreted as an ansi escape sequence by 
dumb terminals, which is one of the reasons for using UTF-8 in the first 
place.

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[sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Dima Pasechnik]

On 2013-07-08, Volker Braun  wrote:
> --=_Part_5933_16822679.1373249129839
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Fr=E9d=E9ric Chapoton has written a patch at http://trac.sagemath.org/14733=
>=20
> that will beautify the Sage startup banner using some UTF-8 characters to=
>=20
> draw the box. This will display incorrectly in terminals that do not=20
> support UTF-8. In that case, Sage still works but the box around the banner=
>=20
> is garbled (most likely rendered by placeholder signs for non-ASCII=20
> characters).
>
> Of course, various Sage source files are already UTF-8 encoded, usually=20
> because of non-ASCII characters in docstrings. These will never render=20
> correctly in ancient terminals, nor will editing such source files lead to=
>=20
> much happiness. The questions is essentially, do we want to make it clear=
>=20
> to the user right at the beginning that his terminal is not up to the task=
>=20
> or would we rather only have more subtle errors later?

ssh from strange terminals often garbles any kind of ascii art, leave
alone being UTF-8 clean etc.
I've been doing "export TERM=vt100" much too much to trust
these things.
-1 to the UTF-8 banner, sorry...

Dima

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Robert Bradshaw]

On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 1:55 AM, Julien Puydt wrote:

> Le 08/07/2013 10:51, Nils Bruin a écrit :
>
>> On Monday, July 8, 2013 4:05:29 AM UTC+2, Volker Braun wrote:
>>
>> Frédéric Chapoton has written a patch at
>> http://trac.sagemath.org/14733 
>> >
>> that
>>
>> will beautify the Sage startup banner using some UTF-8 characters to
>> draw the box. This will display incorrectly in terminals that do not
>> support UTF-8. In that case, Sage still works but the box around the
>> banner is garbled (most likely rendered by placeholder signs for
>> non-ASCII characters).
>>
>>
>> -1 to a UTF-8 banner. There's hardly anything in the sage command line
>> that requires a UTF-8 capable terminal (all the colour stuff should shut
>> off automatically for a "dumb" terminal). Why require it for *just* the
>> banner?
>>
>> More personally, I dislike the UTF-8 banner because it looks too nice.
>> To me it doesn't fit with the simple prompt-and-return-value interface
>> (see banners of magma, maple, R, matlab, pari/GP, python, IPython, GAP,
>> Singular). The "graphics" looking lines are more suggestive of a
>> menu-driven interface to me, like the text-based "dialog" interfaces. So
>> to me, the "+-|"-built borders raise expectations more appropriate for
>> what sage command line offers.
>>
>
> -1 too for the same reasons.
>
> Keep the banner short and simple ; people don't come to sage to enjoy that
> sight!


I agree, no need to have fancy unicode here. If you're doing something that
requires nice output you should probably be using a notebook interface
anyways; the CLI interface just isn't going to go there and going part way
is worse than just keeping things simple.

- Robert

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Volker Braun]

On Monday, July 8, 2013 6:46:40 AM UTC-4, vdelecroix wrote:

> If we allow an UTF-8 banner then we may also allow UTF-8 string 
> representations for Sage objects (why not?).


Kind of off topic, but I think there is no doubt that we will be using 
UTF-8 for string representations at some point in the future. It would be 
stupid for a mathematics project to not take advantage of all the 
mathematical symbol codepoints in unicode.

Having said that, it is also true that there are still non-UTF8 capable 
terminals in the wild. So until we have an idea of how many people are 
using them, we shouldn't require them to actually use Sage. But the banner 
and the docstrings aren't really crucial to using Sage.
 

> But I think we do not want to force the user to have UTF-8 output because 
> it is always harder to parse an UTF-8 string than an ASCII string (this 
> argument is also valid for the Sage banner).


I disagree, the difficulty right now is that you often get a mix of byte 
strings with various encodings so its not obvious what to do. But Python 3 
has only unicode strings, so basically there will be no such thing as an 
ASCII string. String operations are then naturally unicode and just as easy 
or difficult as if everything were ASCII. 

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[sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Volker Braun]

On Monday, July 8, 2013 4:51:28 AM UTC-4, Nils Bruin wrote:
>
> all the colour stuff should shut off automatically for a "dumb" terminal). 
>

The colors are ansi escape sequences, they have nothing to do with unicode 
for the record
 

> Why require it for *just* the banner?
>

As I said already, we *already*  require it for display of non-ascii 
characters in docstrings.
 

> More personally, I dislike the UTF-8 banner because it looks too nice.
>

These kids nowadays, they have it to easy. When I was young, we had to walk 
an hour through the snow to school. And uphill. In both directions ;-)

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Jean-Pierre Flori]

On Monday, July 8, 2013 12:46:42 PM UTC+2, Nils Bruin wrote:
>
>
>
> On Monday, July 8, 2013 11:33:18 AM UTC+2, Jean-Pierre Flori wrote:
>>
>> IIRC the new GAP banner uses UTF-8.
>>
>  
> You're right. With (to me) the same jarring effect, so I don't like it.
>
That was also a problem to me when I updated some Sage's doc and  latex or 
maybe Sphinx did not like the strange UTF-8 chars used. 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[vdelecroix]

If we allow an UTF-8 banner then we may also allow UTF-8 string 
representations for Sage objects (why not?). But I think we do not want to 
force the user to have UTF-8 output because it is always harder to parse an 
UTF-8 string than an ASCII string (this argument is also valid for the Sage 
banner). It might be useful to have two console modes, ASCII and unicode, 
and I have no objection of having unicode as default. Finally, I strongly 
believe that we do not want to change the sage-banner at each release.

Vincent

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Nils Bruin]

On Monday, July 8, 2013 11:33:18 AM UTC+2, Jean-Pierre Flori wrote:
>
> IIRC the new GAP banner uses UTF-8.
>
 
You're right. With (to me) the same jarring effect, so I don't like it.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Jean-Pierre Flori]

IIRC the new GAP banner uses UTF-8.

On Monday, July 8, 2013 11:28:23 AM UTC+2, tdumont wrote:
>
> Le 08/07/2013 10:51, Nils Bruin a �crit : 
> > On Monday, July 8, 2013 4:05:29 AM UTC+2, Volker Braun wrote: 
> > 
> > Fr�d�ric Chapoton has written a patch at 
> > http://trac.sagemath.org/14733  
> that 
> > will beautify the Sage startup banner using some UTF-8 characters to 
> > draw the box. This will display incorrectly in terminals that do not 
> > support UTF-8. In that case, Sage still works but the box around the 
> > banner is garbled (most likely rendered by placeholder signs for 
> > non-ASCII characters). 
> > 
> > 
> > -1 to a UTF-8 banner. There's hardly anything in the sage command line 
> > that requires a UTF-8 capable terminal (all the colour stuff should shut 
> > off automatically for a "dumb" terminal). Why require it for *just* the 
> > banner? 
> > 
> > More personally, I dislike the UTF-8 banner because it looks too nice. 
> > To me it doesn't fit with the simple prompt-and-return-value interface 
> > (see banners of magma, maple, R, matlab, pari/GP, python, IPython, GAP, 
> > Singular). The "graphics" looking lines are more suggestive of a 
> > menu-driven interface to me, like the text-based "dialog" interfaces. So 
> > to me, the "+-|"-built borders raise expectations more appropriate for 
> > what sage command line offers. 
> > 
>
> Is the banner of R so simple? Probably it does not use UTF8, but it 
> speakes your mother's language (French in my case)... 
> > -- 
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Thierry Dumont]

Le 08/07/2013 10:51, Nils Bruin a écrit :

On Monday, July 8, 2013 4:05:29 AM UTC+2, Volker Braun wrote:

Frédéric Chapoton has written a patch at
http://trac.sagemath.org/14733  that
will beautify the Sage startup banner using some UTF-8 characters to
draw the box. This will display incorrectly in terminals that do not
support UTF-8. In that case, Sage still works but the box around the
banner is garbled (most likely rendered by placeholder signs for
non-ASCII characters).


-1 to a UTF-8 banner. There's hardly anything in the sage command line
that requires a UTF-8 capable terminal (all the colour stuff should shut
off automatically for a "dumb" terminal). Why require it for *just* the
banner?

More personally, I dislike the UTF-8 banner because it looks too nice.
To me it doesn't fit with the simple prompt-and-return-value interface
(see banners of magma, maple, R, matlab, pari/GP, python, IPython, GAP,
Singular). The "graphics" looking lines are more suggestive of a
menu-driven interface to me, like the text-based "dialog" interfaces. So
to me, the "+-|"-built borders raise expectations more appropriate for
what sage command line offers.



Is the banner of R so simple? Probably it does not use UTF8, but it 
speakes your mother's language (French in my case)...

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<>

Re: [sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Julien Puydt]

Le 08/07/2013 10:51, Nils Bruin a écrit :

On Monday, July 8, 2013 4:05:29 AM UTC+2, Volker Braun wrote:

Frédéric Chapoton has written a patch at
http://trac.sagemath.org/14733  that
will beautify the Sage startup banner using some UTF-8 characters to
draw the box. This will display incorrectly in terminals that do not
support UTF-8. In that case, Sage still works but the box around the
banner is garbled (most likely rendered by placeholder signs for
non-ASCII characters).


-1 to a UTF-8 banner. There's hardly anything in the sage command line
that requires a UTF-8 capable terminal (all the colour stuff should shut
off automatically for a "dumb" terminal). Why require it for *just* the
banner?

More personally, I dislike the UTF-8 banner because it looks too nice.
To me it doesn't fit with the simple prompt-and-return-value interface
(see banners of magma, maple, R, matlab, pari/GP, python, IPython, GAP,
Singular). The "graphics" looking lines are more suggestive of a
menu-driven interface to me, like the text-based "dialog" interfaces. So
to me, the "+-|"-built borders raise expectations more appropriate for
what sage command line offers.


-1 too for the same reasons.

Keep the banner short and simple ; people don't come to sage to enjoy 
that sight!


Snark on #sagemath

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[sage-devel] Re: UTF-8 and old terminals (new startup banner)

[Nils Bruin]

On Monday, July 8, 2013 4:05:29 AM UTC+2, Volker Braun wrote:
>
> Frédéric Chapoton has written a patch at http://trac.sagemath.org/14733that 
> will beautify the Sage startup banner using some UTF-8 characters to 
> draw the box. This will display incorrectly in terminals that do not 
> support UTF-8. In that case, Sage still works but the box around the banner 
> is garbled (most likely rendered by placeholder signs for non-ASCII 
> characters).


-1 to a UTF-8 banner. There's hardly anything in the sage command line that 
requires a UTF-8 capable terminal (all the colour stuff should shut off 
automatically for a "dumb" terminal). Why require it for *just* the banner?

More personally, I dislike the UTF-8 banner because it looks too nice. To 
me it doesn't fit with the simple prompt-and-return-value interface (see 
banners of magma, maple, R, matlab, pari/GP, python, IPython, GAP, 
Singular). The "graphics" looking lines are more suggestive of a 
menu-driven interface to me, like the text-based "dialog" interfaces. So to 
me, the "+-|"-built borders raise expectations more appropriate for what 
sage command line offers.

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