Re: [sage-devel] SPKG Maintainers??

[William Stein]

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 11:12 AM, Dima Pasechnik  wrote:

>> Who?
>> Is he removing his own name or other people's name?
>
> see done by the request of the reviewer

Nathann Cohen seems to have written:

   "what is this?" about this in your patch: "+- cf. ``git blame`` for
the others involved"

Then there was some bizarre banter starting with "It committed suicide
last month, but through an exorcist I was..."

> http://git.sagemath.org/sage.git/commit/?id=edb886e9f9d0f505f272fe769e69e8a51ab265df
> on http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19098
>
> One way or another, there are Copyright notices with names in many files,
> and Author entries,

True.  As there should be.  Contributors keep their copyright.
Authors should get as much and as explicit of credit as we can
possibly give them.

 People probably don't remember the early days of Sage, but there was
often a belief that the project would be *impossible* due to the math
culture in which authorship had to be clearly maintained.  Many people
sincerely thought that the GAP or PARI developers would be very angry
that their system was used in Sage, and that people wouldn't
contribute since their contributions wouldn't be acknowledged.

> sometimes they
> have to do something with each other, sometimes not, sometimes there are
> huge additions done
> by people without adding their names to either of these fields...
> It's a mess.

I don't think we should impose a ton of bureaucracy on the AUTHORS blocks.

However, we should definitely not have reviewers asking people to
remove their names from it, and not removing other people's names
either.

 -- William

>
>
>>>
>>> IMHO we need an official policy on this.
>>>
>>>

  -- William

 > documentation but these information, like TODO and TESTS, is not
 > usually
 > what the user expects to see in the doc.  These developer-oriented
 > blocks
 > are better to be hidden or placed in less prominent place for the end
 > users.
 >
 > --
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 --
 William (http://wstein.org)
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my massive iPhone 6 plus.
>
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Re: [sage-devel] SPKG Maintainers??

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Tuesday, 22 September 2015 11:49:37 UTC-7, William wrote:
>
> On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 11:12 AM, Dima Pasechnik  > wrote: 
>
> >> Who? 
> >> Is he removing his own name or other people's name? 
> > 
> > see done by the request of the reviewer 
>
> Nathann Cohen seems to have written: 
>
>"what is this?" about this in your patch: "+- cf. ``git blame`` for 
> the others involved" 
>
> Then there was some bizarre banter starting with "It committed suicide 
> last month, but through an exorcist I was..." 
>
> > 
> http://git.sagemath.org/sage.git/commit/?id=edb886e9f9d0f505f272fe769e69e8a51ab265df
>  
> > on http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19098 
> > 
> > One way or another, there are Copyright notices with names in many 
> files, 
> > and Author entries, 
>
> True.  As there should be.  Contributors keep their copyright. 
> Authors should get as much and as explicit of credit as we can 
> possibly give them. 
>
>  People probably don't remember the early days of Sage, but there was 
> often a belief that the project would be *impossible* due to the math 
> culture in which authorship had to be clearly maintained.  Many people 
> sincerely thought that the GAP or PARI developers would be very angry 
> that their system was used in Sage, and that people wouldn't 
> contribute since their contributions wouldn't be acknowledged. 
>
> > sometimes they 
> > have to do something with each other, sometimes not, sometimes there are 
> > huge additions done 
> > by people without adding their names to either of these fields... 
> > It's a mess. 
>
> I don't think we should impose a ton of bureaucracy on the AUTHORS blocks. 
>
> However, we should definitely not have reviewers asking people to 
> remove their names from it, and not removing other people's names 
> either. 
>
> this is not enough, as non-mentioning your name has a viral effect - 
people won't feel like putting their names 
in the AUTHORS block if there is none, or if it is obsolete.
One example is provided by src/sage/graphs/generators/families.py
(featured in the commit above)
 more examples:
sage/combinat/matrices/hadamard.py
 (Only 50% is by wdj, in AUTHORS)

more extreme:
sage/numerical/mip.pyx

(it has Nathann's name in copyright - I guess he cared more about
acknowledgements, as he was still a postdoc, IIRC...)
The only AUTHORS listed is my former student Risan, now at Facebook...

I don't know how widespread this is, absence/incompleteness of AUTHORS.

Probably some automated check should be run,  comparing output of 'git 
blame' with AUTHORS.

Dima

 -- William 
>
> > 
> > 
> >>> 
> >>> IMHO we need an official policy on this. 
> >>> 
> >>> 
>  
>   -- William 
>  
>  > documentation but these information, like TODO and TESTS, is not 
>  > usually 
>  > what the user expects to see in the doc.  These developer-oriented 
>  > blocks 
>  > are better to be hidden or placed in less prominent place for the 
> end 
>  > users. 
>  > 
>  > -- 
>  > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>  > Groups 
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>  > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
>  
>  
>  
>  -- 
>  William (http://wstein.org) 
> >>> 
> >>> -- 
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> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> -- 
> >> Sent from my massive iPhone 6 plus. 
> > 
> > -- 
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>
>
>
> -- 
> William (http://wstein.org) 
>

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Re: [sage-devel] SPKG Maintainers??

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Tuesday, 22 September 2015 12:00:36 UTC-7, Volker Braun wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 8:12:26 PM UTC+2, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>>
>> One way or another, there are Copyright notices with names in many files,
>>
>
> Copyright notices are an entirely different topic from this thread. No / 
> unclear copyright means: No right for Sage to distribute. So they are 
> essentially a legal requirement. License information is also not tracked by 
> git, only authorship is
>

many files have no copyright... Should we fix this in an automated way?

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Re: [sage-devel] SPKG Maintainers??

[Volker Braun]

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 8:12:26 PM UTC+2, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
> One way or another, there are Copyright notices with names in many files,
>

Copyright notices are an entirely different topic from this thread. No / 
unclear copyright means: No right for Sage to distribute. So they are 
essentially a legal requirement. License information is also not tracked by 
git, only authorship is.

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Re: [sage-devel] SPKG Maintainers??

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Tuesday, 22 September 2015 01:38:03 UTC-7, William wrote:
>
>
>
> On Monday, September 21, 2015, Dima Pasechnik  > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, 21 September 2015 21:42:31 UTC-7, William wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 7:58 PM, Kwankyu Lee  wrote: 
>>> > I have written a couple of AUTHORS-blocks, but I think I did it not to 
>>> have 
>>> > a credit but to be responsible for the code. 
>>> > 
>>> > AUTHORS blocks are rather for developers, not for end users. 
>>> These blocks 
>>> > are rather hindrance for end users as  they usually appear at the head 
>>> of a 
>>>
>>> When I "invented" this idea of AUTHORS blocks, they were definitelynot 
>>> only for developers but also for end users.They were partly meant 
>>> as an antidote to what happened with Magma when "they" deleted all the 
>>> names of many of the contributors to Magma from the beginnings of the 
>>> relevant sections of the reference manual, which pissed a lot of 
>>> contributors off. 
>>>
>>> When you read a mathematics paper you don't say "this statement of the 
>>> authors of this paper at the top is not for readers and is a 
>>> hindrance". 
>>>
>>> If anything, I think we should systematically do vastly *more* to 
>>> clearly acknowledge and appreciate the code contributors to Sage. 
>>> They are by far the most important people to the existence of Sage. g
>>>
>>
>> I know at least one prolific Sage contributor who does not add himself to 
>> AUTHORS block,
>> and actually is removing these blocks.
>>
>
> Who?
> Is he removing his own name or other people's name?
>
see done by the request of the reviewer

http://git.sagemath.org/sage.git/commit/?id=edb886e9f9d0f505f272fe769e69e8a51ab265df
on http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19098 

One way or another, there are Copyright notices with names in many files, 
and Author entries, sometimes they
have to do something with each other, sometimes not, sometimes there are 
huge additions done
by people without adding their names to either of these fields...
It's a mess.



>> IMHO we need an official policy on this. 
>>
>>
>>
>>>  -- William 
>>>
>>> > documentation but these information, like TODO and TESTS, is not 
>>> usually 
>>> > what the user expects to see in the doc.  These developer-oriented 
>>> blocks 
>>> > are better to be hidden or placed in less prominent place for the end 
>>> users. 
>>> > 
>>> > -- 
>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups 
>>> > "sage-devel" group. 
>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an 
>>> > email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. 
>>> > To post to this group, send email to sage-...@googlegroups.com. 
>>> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. 
>>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> William (http://wstein.org) 
>>>
>> -- 
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>>
>
>
> -- 
> Sent from my massive iPhone 6 plus.
>

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Re: [sage-devel] SPKG Maintainers??

[Kwankyu Lee]

I am not that developer :-) 

How about this system?

We trim the AUTHOR blocks by just listing the names of contributors to the 
given module (to give credits to the contributors); 
And we recommend a new contributor to add his/her name to the end of the 
list (to give more credits to the initial creators); 
And this AUTHORS block only appears at the end of the documentation of the 
module (not to clutter the doc for the end users, but still give them 
motivations to contribute).

The incomplete information about "who did what" in the current AUTHORS 
blocks are removed but can be recovered in git.  


Kwankyu

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Re: [sage-devel] SPKG Maintainers??

[Andrey Novoseltsev]

I had some random people contact me with questions about the modules I've 
written and I suspect it was due to the AUTHORS block, so it is useful to 
users.

Regarding git, it took me a while to get reasonably comfortable with it and 
while I like it now, it is unreasonable to expect someone to learn using it 
just for the sake of figuring out who wrote what.

And for git blame specifically - it is often ugly when there were multiple 
layers of semi-automated changes in the file and each line has its own 
commit (rather than some logical blocks). Personally I find "History" on 
github for a particular module much more useful than blame display.

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Re: [sage-devel] SPKG Maintainers??

[Andrey Novoseltsev]

On Tuesday, 22 September 2015 14:22:14 UTC-6, Jeroen Demeyer wrote:
>
> On 2015-09-22 21:24, Dima Pasechnik wrote: 
> > I guess he cared more about acknowledgements 
>
> There is nothing wrong with caring about acknowledgements. 
>
> I usually add my name as author when I feel that I'm contributing 
> something new, not just fixing bugs. 
>
> Note that the "git blame" doesn't tell much about the effort that people 
> put into the code: usually bugfixes or incremental additions are a lot 
> easier than writing the code in the first place. Also, sometimes code is 
> just moved around or refactored which completely changes the "git blame" 
> output. 
>
> I think it's theoretically possible for a person X to be a significant 
> author to some piece of code, even though "git blame" doesn't list a 
> single line authored by X. 
>
> Exactly. I think this is the only time I've listed myself as an author of 
a function:
https://github.com/sagemath/sage/blame/master/src/sage/geometry/hasse_diagram.py
It required me quite a bit of time to read a paper to understand the 
algorithm, throw away optimizations that I judged irrelevant for Python, 
and write the code which was orders of magnitude faster than its previous 
implementation in Sage (the current bottleneck is poset constructor, 
getting input data for it is fast). I am not visible in git blame at all 
among 5 people that are. Plus github mysteriously shows only "1 
contributor" (Nathann visible after clicking the link) under the name of Marc 
Mezzarobba (who was the last contributor and whose contribution was to move 
a reference to another file). From this git does not seem to be designed 
for showing who wrote the code.

Jeroen. 
>

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Re: [sage-devel] SPKG Maintainers??

[Nathann Cohen]

> I usually add my name as author when I feel that I'm contributing something
> new, not just fixing bugs.

It can make sense to add your name when you add something new, but
code is not static like a scientific paper. Contrary to it, code is
modified over time and after a while an authors block does not make
any sense.

The best we can have when it comes to acknowledgement is our trac
server: it stores what each of us did, and this history does not
change. Then we have 'git blame' when we want to know who wrote one
specific line.

With the trac history and the git history, I believe that we have
trustworthy information in both directions.

Authors block, however, are maintained manually and represent more
accurately how we feel with respec to acknowledgement than the
work/sweat we put into it.

You, Jeroen, believe that it is not worth adding your name when you
add a bugfix. If you read the 'authors' block of the graph.py file
(the module, not some specific function) you will see that some people
added their name there after fixing a docstring!

http://doc.sagemath.org/html/en/reference/graphs/sage/graphs/graph.html#graph-format

On the other side of the spectra, Vincent's name and mine appear twice
in the whole combinat/design/ folder, and we basically wrote (or
rewrote) everything that is in there. I spent months for what it is
that folder.

If we start adding our names to authors block at every patch, I will
have to decide whether I want everybody else's name but mine to
appear, or whether I want every single function of the graph/ folder
to have an 'AUTHORS' block with my name on it.

And I will hate myself.

Nathann

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Re: [sage-devel] SPKG Maintainers??

[Jeroen Demeyer]

On 2015-09-22 21:24, Dima Pasechnik wrote:

I guess he cared more about acknowledgements


There is nothing wrong with caring about acknowledgements.

I usually add my name as author when I feel that I'm contributing 
something new, not just fixing bugs.


Note that the "git blame" doesn't tell much about the effort that people 
put into the code: usually bugfixes or incremental additions are a lot 
easier than writing the code in the first place. Also, sometimes code is 
just moved around or refactored which completely changes the "git blame" 
output.


I think it's theoretically possible for a person X to be a significant 
author to some piece of code, even though "git blame" doesn't list a 
single line authored by X.


Jeroen.

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Re: [sage-devel] SPKG Maintainers??

[Jori Mäntysalo]

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015, Andrey Novoseltsev wrote:

I had some random people contact me with questions about the modules 
I've written and I suspect it was due to the AUTHORS block, so it is 
useful to users.


On Tue, 22 Sep 2015, Nathann Cohen wrote:


code is not static like a scientific paper. Contrary to it, code is
modified over time and after a while an authors block does not make
any sense.


I think that both of the above are correct. So I wild(?) idea...

Could we have some kind of "contact"-chain? Are developers ready to answer 
questions about their code and documentation? Then the point would shift 
from "I made this." to "I can debug or clarify this, if needed."?


I have no specific idea about how to do it. Something like "contact" for 
whole SageMath would be sage-support, then there could have 
sage-partX-support or person X taking care of large part of Sage, other 
would have "responsibility" for sage-partX_1, and lastly there could be 
function level?


An example of chain:

is_supersolvable < lattices < posets < combinat < SageMath

A person writing .is_supersolvable? would get, say, name of somebody 
"responsible" for posets, if there is nobody handling specially just 
is_supersolvable or lattices.


Is something like this done in any software before?

--
Jori Mäntysalo

Re: [sage-devel] SPKG Maintainers??

[William Stein]

On Monday, September 21, 2015, Dima Pasechnik  wrote:

>
>
> On Monday, 21 September 2015 21:42:31 UTC-7, William wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 7:58 PM, Kwankyu Lee  wrote:
>> > I have written a couple of AUTHORS-blocks, but I think I did it not to
>> have
>> > a credit but to be responsible for the code.
>> >
>> > AUTHORS blocks are rather for developers, not for end users.
>> These blocks
>> > are rather hindrance for end users as  they usually appear at the head
>> of a
>>
>> When I "invented" this idea of AUTHORS blocks, they were definitelynot
>> only for developers but also for end users.They were partly meant
>> as an antidote to what happened with Magma when "they" deleted all the
>> names of many of the contributors to Magma from the beginnings of the
>> relevant sections of the reference manual, which pissed a lot of
>> contributors off.
>>
>> When you read a mathematics paper you don't say "this statement of the
>> authors of this paper at the top is not for readers and is a
>> hindrance".
>>
>> If anything, I think we should systematically do vastly *more* to
>> clearly acknowledge and appreciate the code contributors to Sage.
>> They are by far the most important people to the existence of Sage. g
>>
>
> I know at least one prolific Sage contributor who does not add himself to
> AUTHORS block,
> and actually is removing these blocks.
>

Who?
Is he removing his own name or other people's name?


>
> IMHO we need an official policy on this.
>
>
>
>>  -- William
>>
>> > documentation but these information, like TODO and TESTS, is not
>> usually
>> > what the user expects to see in the doc.  These developer-oriented
>> blocks
>> > are better to be hidden or placed in less prominent place for the end
>> users.
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups
>> > "sage-devel" group.
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>> an
>> > email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com.
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>> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> William (http://wstein.org)
>>
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Re: [sage-devel] SPKG Maintainers??

[Thierry]

Hi,

this decision, which appears to have reached a consensus, is now
implemented at: http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19238

Ciao,
Thierry


On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 07:55:56AM -0700, William Stein wrote:
> On Oct 30, 2014 5:26 AM, "kcrisman"  wrote:
> >
> > Ordinarily I'd be against this sort of thing, but I agree that this
> concept has not proved to be useful - any given maintainer rarely actually
> does keep up with things for more than a year or two, though in aggregate
> the community does pretty well with many of them.
> >
> > I think that the concept of "owner" of a given Trac component, especially
> the auto-assigned ones, also have outlived its usefulness.
> >
> >>
> 
> +1 and these facts really speak to a surprising strength of our community.
> 
> >> I agree let's get rid of this.
> >>
> >> I've updated a bunch of packages but did not feel like filling this
> field with my name as I couldn't promise I'll keep on maintaining the
> packages.
> >
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Re: [sage-devel] SPKG Maintainers??

[William Stein]

On Oct 30, 2014 5:26 AM, kcrisman kcris...@gmail.com wrote:

 Ordinarily I'd be against this sort of thing, but I agree that this
concept has not proved to be useful - any given maintainer rarely actually
does keep up with things for more than a year or two, though in aggregate
the community does pretty well with many of them.

 I think that the concept of owner of a given Trac component, especially
the auto-assigned ones, also have outlived its usefulness.



+1 and these facts really speak to a surprising strength of our community.

 I agree let's get rid of this.

 I've updated a bunch of packages but did not feel like filling this
field with my name as I couldn't promise I'll keep on maintaining the
packages.

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Re: [sage-devel] SPKG Maintainers??

[Francois Bissey]

+1
 On 29/10/2014, at 21:24, Jeroen Demeyer jdeme...@cage.ugent.be wrote:
 
 Hello,
 
 all SPKG.txt files list SPKG Maintainers. I never quite understood the 
 reason for this. Mostly, this seems to have been added once when creating the 
 SPKG and indeed many maintainers have long left Sage. Since these sections 
 doesn't seem to have a purpose, can we just remove those?
 
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Re: [sage-devel] SPKG Maintainers??

[Clemens Heuberger]

On 2014-10-29 09:32, Francois Bissey wrote:
 +1
 On 29/10/2014, at 21:24, Jeroen Demeyer jdeme...@cage.ugent.be wrote:

 Hello,

 all SPKG.txt files list SPKG Maintainers. I never quite understood the 
 reason for this. Mostly, this seems to have been added once when creating 
 the SPKG and indeed many maintainers have long left Sage. Since these 
 sections doesn't seem to have a purpose, can we just remove those?

+1

I was wondering why SKPG's have maintainers and other modules do not.

One example would be #16747 (Arb - arbitrary precision floating point ball
arithmetic), where the SPKG Maintainers proposed inclusion in July and we have
not heard anything from them since that time.

Regards, CH

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Re: [sage-devel] SPKG Maintainers??

[Jean-Pierre Flori]

I agree let's get rid of this.

I've updated a bunch of packages but did not feel like filling this field 
with my name as I couldn't promise I'll keep on maintaining the packages.

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