Re: [sage-devel] get_systems() is totally unreliable without profiling enabled in Cython
On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 1:52 PM, Jeroen Demeyer wrote: > On 2017-06-14 12:36, Erik Bray wrote: >> >> The fact that you put "systems" in quotes I think really gets to what >> my question is: How is "systems" defined in this case? > > > Essentially, a "system" is any external math package/library that a > computation uses. So things like Pynac, MPFR, PARI, Maxima, OpenBLAS, ... That's what I thought. So you don't necessarily *need* a trace of every function that's called. That's just how this happens to be implemented in an automated fashion. I think that's still useful to have though, which is why I think option (B) makes sense: Keep the functionality but make it clear that it's not going to work properly without profiling enabled in Cython. > I agree that this is not really objective, for various reasons: > > 1. Why restrict to "math" packages? We could consider Python, Cython, ECL or > CyPari2 to be a "system" too. I agree, I think all of these count in some fashion. It sort of depends on what the individual user's purpose is. If they just want an informal list of technologies they used they might mention Python, etc. Though another more serious use case is if one wants to give citations to the systems they used, and that's only relevant if those systems have a way of being citied (a paper, for example). > 2. What about trivial uses? For example, if we ask to list all elements of > FiniteField(16), does that really "use" Givaro? Technically, it does but > only in a very trivial way. This is another reason I was thinking about some manual system of listing what "systems" are involved in a calculation. That is, for an individual function, what systems are most relevant to obtaining the result it returns? On some level this is subjective, and something that only the human implementing that function can really know. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] get_systems() is totally unreliable without profiling enabled in Cython
On 2017-06-14 12:36, Erik Bray wrote: The fact that you put "systems" in quotes I think really gets to what my question is: How is "systems" defined in this case? Essentially, a "system" is any external math package/library that a computation uses. So things like Pynac, MPFR, PARI, Maxima, OpenBLAS, ... I agree that this is not really objective, for various reasons: 1. Why restrict to "math" packages? We could consider Python, Cython, ECL or CyPari2 to be a "system" too. 2. What about trivial uses? For example, if we ask to list all elements of FiniteField(16), does that really "use" Givaro? Technically, it does but only in a very trivial way. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] get_systems() is totally unreliable without profiling enabled in Cython
On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 11:58 AM, Jeroen Demeyer wrote:
> On 2017-06-14 11:07, Erik Bray wrote:
>>
>> I guess I don't really understand what it's for then.
>
>
> What's your proposed user interface?
I don't understand your question. How do you figure I'm proposing a
"user interface"?
> Currently, it is for example
>
> sage: get_systems("(x^2 - 1).expand()")
>
> to get the list of "systems" involved in the execution of the Sage command
> (x^2 - 1).expand()
The fact that you put "systems" in quotes I think really gets to what
my question is: How is "systems" defined in this case?
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Re: [sage-devel] get_systems() is totally unreliable without profiling enabled in Cython
On 2017-06-14 11:07, Erik Bray wrote:
I guess I don't really understand what it's for then.
What's your proposed user interface?
Currently, it is for example
sage: get_systems("(x^2 - 1).expand()")
to get the list of "systems" involved in the execution of the Sage
command (x^2 - 1).expand()
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Re: [sage-devel] get_systems() is totally unreliable without profiling enabled in Cython
On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 9:31 PM, Jeroen Demeyer wrote: > On 2017-06-06 16:11, Erik Bray wrote: >> >> such as providing a way to manually list systems/libraries used >> by a specific function > > > That's not the problem. The problem is how to determine which functions are > actually called. I guess I don't really understand what it's for then. To me get_systems() implies, "tell me what programs/libraries were used to obtain this result so that I can cite them properly"--not necessarily individual functions (though I suppose that can be relevant in some cases too). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] get_systems() is totally unreliable without profiling enabled in Cython
On 2017-06-06 16:11, Erik Bray wrote: such as providing a way to manually list systems/libraries used by a specific function That's not the problem. The problem is how to determine which functions are actually called. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] get_systems() is totally unreliable without profiling enabled in Cython
On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Jeroen Demeyer wrote:
> Do you know about sage.misc.citation.get_systems()?
>
> It's supposed to tell which underlying "system" (library, package, ...) is
> used for a particular computation.
>
> One example from a docstring:
>
> sage: from sage.misc.citation import get_systems
> sage: get_systems('((x+1)^2).expand()')
> ['ginac']
>
> This is implemented by using cProfile to look at which modules implement the
> functions called when executing the code.
>
> The problem is that this is totally unreliable when Cython is compiled
> without profiling support (which is the default). The above example only
> works because `Expression.expand()` is called by Python instead of Cython.
> If that call would be inside some other Cython code, then Python's profiler
> would not detect it:
>
> sage: cython('def callexpand(x): return x.expand()')
> sage: from sage.misc.citation import get_systems
> sage: get_systems('callexpand(((x+1)^2))')
> []
>
>
> So what should we do?
>
> (A) Silently ignore this issue (status quo).
>
> (B) Give a warning when get_systems() is called when Cython profiling was
> not enabled.
>
> (C) Deprecate get_systems() completely.
>
>
> I am asking because #22747 (compiling Cython code with binding=True) will
> "break" profiling even further as even the top-level call of
> Expression.expand() would not be detected as something to be entered in the
> profiler.
I wonder if there isn't at least some partially technical solution to
this, such as providing a way to manually list systems/libraries used
by a specific function, and make that easily introspectable. Of
course, this is far from foolproof--the developer would have to
hand-code it, and it might not remain accurate.
Absent something like that, I would give a warning,along with
instructions to rebuild with Cython profiling enabled or something.
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