Re: [Scons-dev] sconsign database discussion

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 6:02 PM Mats Wichmann  wrote:
>
> I did get a quick implementation going, and the informal timing I did on
> that were somewhat disappointing.

Disappointing for SQLite or for pickled dict?
Is there still an easy way to do SCons benchmarks and share them?
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Re: [Scons-dev] sconsign database discussion

[anatoly techtonik]

> There's been some discussion of making sconsign be a "real" database,
> not least because the "dump the entire dictionary (pickling as we go) to
> database on exit" behavior is pretty irritating - quite a slow operation
> if you didn't do any work.

Can we start with some digits? Otherwise how do we know that the new
way is actually solving the problem.
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Re: [Scons-dev] scons copyto /path/to/project

[anatoly techtonik]

1. Does argument order matters? Will that work?

scons scons-local SCONS_LOCAL_DIR=/path/to/where/I/want/it

2. There is no way at all to access such positional arguments?
Is it because all arguments are targets?
Using `--` doesn't produce an error for missing File target for
/path/to/where/I/want/it, so maybe it can still be used?

scons scons-local -- /path/to/where/I/want/it

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 8:54 PM Bill Deegan  wrote:
>
> no more likely
> scons SCONS_LOCAL_DIR=/path/to/where/I/want/it scons-local
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:50 AM anatoly techtonik  wrote:
>>
>> Do you mean the command will becomes `scons scons-local /path/to/project`?
>>
>> I still haven't found the way to pass the location to either command.
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 6:25 PM Bill Deegan  wrote:
>> >
>> > This is probably the wrong way to go about this.
>> > I'd rather just allow passing in the location to build the scons-local and 
>> > not copy it after it's been constructed.
>> > Seems a much simpler method.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 1:03 PM anatoly techtonik  
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 6:13 PM Bill Deegan  
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > yes. it belongs in the users mailing list.
>> >> > It's about using scons.
>> >> > (whether that's about installing scons it doesn't matter)
>> >> >
>> >> > So you're proposing to add this logic into SCons' own SConstruct?
>> >>
>> >> Exactly. PR message asked to discuss it first.
>> >>
>> >> > On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 11:01 AM anatoly techtonik  
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 12:23 AM Bill Deegan 
>> >> >>  wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > probably should be on the users mailing list.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Not really. I want to add a feature to copy scons-local to another
>> >> >> project directory without zipping and unzipping it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Go take a look at the manpage.
>> >> >> > I think env.Install() is what you want..
>> >> >>
>> >> >> https://scons.org/doc/4.0.1/HTML/scons-user/ch11.html
>> >> >> Looks like installation is just a copy. Or is there something I missed?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 10:33 AM anatoly techtonik 
>> >> >> >  wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Hi.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Is it possible to create a build command that will copy
>> >> >> >> SCons local to the target directory?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> SCons/ -> /path/to/project/SCons/
>> >> >> >> scripts/scons.py -> /path/to/project/scons
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I haven't used SCons for a while and I don't remember
>> >> >> >> how to create phony target "copyto" and handle path
>> >> >> >> parameter to it.
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> anatoly t.
>> >> >> >> ___
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>> >> >> >> Scons-dev@scons.org
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>> >> >> >
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>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> anatoly t.
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>> >> >> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
>> >> >
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>> >> > Scons-dev@scons.org
>> >> > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
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>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Scons-dev] scons copyto /path/to/project

[anatoly techtonik]

Do you mean the command will becomes `scons scons-local /path/to/project`?

I still haven't found the way to pass the location to either command.

On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 6:25 PM Bill Deegan  wrote:
>
> This is probably the wrong way to go about this.
> I'd rather just allow passing in the location to build the scons-local and 
> not copy it after it's been constructed.
> Seems a much simpler method.
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 1:03 PM anatoly techtonik  wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 6:13 PM Bill Deegan  wrote:
>> >
>> > yes. it belongs in the users mailing list.
>> > It's about using scons.
>> > (whether that's about installing scons it doesn't matter)
>> >
>> > So you're proposing to add this logic into SCons' own SConstruct?
>>
>> Exactly. PR message asked to discuss it first.
>>
>> > On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 11:01 AM anatoly techtonik  
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 12:23 AM Bill Deegan  
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > probably should be on the users mailing list.
>> >>
>> >> Not really. I want to add a feature to copy scons-local to another
>> >> project directory without zipping and unzipping it.
>> >>
>> >> > Go take a look at the manpage.
>> >> > I think env.Install() is what you want..
>> >>
>> >> https://scons.org/doc/4.0.1/HTML/scons-user/ch11.html
>> >> Looks like installation is just a copy. Or is there something I missed?
>> >>
>> >> > On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 10:33 AM anatoly techtonik  
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hi.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Is it possible to create a build command that will copy
>> >> >> SCons local to the target directory?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> SCons/ -> /path/to/project/SCons/
>> >> >> scripts/scons.py -> /path/to/project/scons
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I haven't used SCons for a while and I don't remember
>> >> >> how to create phony target "copyto" and handle path
>> >> >> parameter to it.
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> anatoly t.
>> >> >> ___
>> >> >> Scons-dev mailing list
>> >> >> Scons-dev@scons.org
>> >> >> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
>> >> >
>> >> > ___
>> >> > Scons-dev mailing list
>> >> > Scons-dev@scons.org
>> >> > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> anatoly t.
>> >> ___
>> >> Scons-dev mailing list
>> >> Scons-dev@scons.org
>> >> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Scons-dev mailing list
>> > Scons-dev@scons.org
>> > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> anatoly t.
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Re: [Scons-dev] scons copyto /path/to/project

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 6:13 PM Bill Deegan  wrote:
>
> yes. it belongs in the users mailing list.
> It's about using scons.
> (whether that's about installing scons it doesn't matter)
>
> So you're proposing to add this logic into SCons' own SConstruct?

Exactly. PR message asked to discuss it first.

> On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 11:01 AM anatoly techtonik  wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 12:23 AM Bill Deegan  
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > probably should be on the users mailing list.
>>
>> Not really. I want to add a feature to copy scons-local to another
>> project directory without zipping and unzipping it.
>>
>> > Go take a look at the manpage.
>> > I think env.Install() is what you want..
>>
>> https://scons.org/doc/4.0.1/HTML/scons-user/ch11.html
>> Looks like installation is just a copy. Or is there something I missed?
>>
>> > On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 10:33 AM anatoly techtonik  
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi.
>> >>
>> >> Is it possible to create a build command that will copy
>> >> SCons local to the target directory?
>> >>
>> >> SCons/ -> /path/to/project/SCons/
>> >> scripts/scons.py -> /path/to/project/scons
>> >>
>> >> I haven't used SCons for a while and I don't remember
>> >> how to create phony target "copyto" and handle path
>> >> parameter to it.
>> >> --
>> >> anatoly t.
>> >> ___
>> >> Scons-dev mailing list
>> >> Scons-dev@scons.org
>> >> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Scons-dev mailing list
>> > Scons-dev@scons.org
>> > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> anatoly t.
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>
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Re: [Scons-dev] scons copyto /path/to/project

[anatoly techtonik]

But it will be be a patch for
https://github.com/SCons/scons/blob/master/SConstruct

On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 6:02 PM Bill Deegan  wrote:
>
> THis belongs in scons-user mailing list. Moving it there.
>
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 10:33 AM anatoly techtonik  wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 7:12 PM Mats Wichmann  wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Is it possible to create a build command that will copy
>> > > SCons local to the target directory?
>> > >
>> > > SCons/ -> /path/to/project/SCons/
>> > > scripts/scons.py -> /path/to/project/scons
>> > >
>> > > I haven't used SCons for a while and I don't remember
>> > > how to create phony target "copyto" and handle path
>> > > parameter to it.
>> >
>> > Phony targets are Alias.
>> > Copying stuff usually involves some combination of Install and Default.
>> >
>> > If that's what you are asking...
>>
>> Yup, thanks. I created a target that copies `scripts/scons.py` to `scons`,
>> which is invoked as `scons copyto`:
>>
>> Command('scons', [], Copy('$TARGET', 'scripts/scons.py'))
>> Alias('copyto', 'scons')
>>
>> Now how to parse `/path/to/project` param to `copyto`?
>> --
>> anatoly t.
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Re: [Scons-dev] scons copyto /path/to/project

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 12:23 AM Bill Deegan  wrote:
>
> probably should be on the users mailing list.

Not really. I want to add a feature to copy scons-local to another
project directory without zipping and unzipping it.

> Go take a look at the manpage.
> I think env.Install() is what you want..

https://scons.org/doc/4.0.1/HTML/scons-user/ch11.html
Looks like installation is just a copy. Or is there something I missed?

> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 10:33 AM anatoly techtonik  wrote:
>>
>> Hi.
>>
>> Is it possible to create a build command that will copy
>> SCons local to the target directory?
>>
>> SCons/ -> /path/to/project/SCons/
>> scripts/scons.py -> /path/to/project/scons
>>
>> I haven't used SCons for a while and I don't remember
>> how to create phony target "copyto" and handle path
>> parameter to it.
>> --
>> anatoly t.
>> ___
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>> Scons-dev@scons.org
>> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
>
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Re: [Scons-dev] scons copyto /path/to/project

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 7:12 PM Mats Wichmann  wrote:
> >
> > Is it possible to create a build command that will copy
> > SCons local to the target directory?
> >
> > SCons/ -> /path/to/project/SCons/
> > scripts/scons.py -> /path/to/project/scons
> >
> > I haven't used SCons for a while and I don't remember
> > how to create phony target "copyto" and handle path
> > parameter to it.
>
> Phony targets are Alias.
> Copying stuff usually involves some combination of Install and Default.
>
> If that's what you are asking...

Yup, thanks. I created a target that copies `scripts/scons.py` to `scons`,
which is invoked as `scons copyto`:

Command('scons', [], Copy('$TARGET', 'scripts/scons.py'))
Alias('copyto', 'scons')

Now how to parse `/path/to/project` param to `copyto`?
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[Scons-dev] scons copyto /path/to/project

[anatoly techtonik]

Hi.

Is it possible to create a build command that will copy
SCons local to the target directory?

SCons/ -> /path/to/project/SCons/
scripts/scons.py -> /path/to/project/scons

I haven't used SCons for a while and I don't remember
how to create phony target "copyto" and handle path
parameter to it.
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Re: [Scons-dev] Twitter poll on dropping py27 support

[anatoly techtonik]

What are pros and cons of dropping `py27`?

I did not monitor anything recently. Can SCons still be dropped into
target repository and work from there without any additional
dependencies?

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:51 PM Bill Deegan  wrote:
>
> Feel free to send to users mailing list
>
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 5:52 AM anatoly techtonik  wrote:
>>
>> Any voting options for non-Twitter people?
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 10:23 PM Bill Deegan  
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > https://twitter.com/SConsProject/status/1169688929903230976?s=20
>> > ___
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>> > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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Re: [Scons-dev] Twitter poll on dropping py27 support

[anatoly techtonik]

Any voting options for non-Twitter people?


On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 10:23 PM Bill Deegan  wrote:
>
> https://twitter.com/SConsProject/status/1169688929903230976?s=20
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Re: [Scons-dev] Fwd: SourceForge Project of the Week January 7th, 2019

[anatoly techtonik]

Without absolute digits it is hard to tell if it is not the result of
exodus of other projects to GitLab etc. =)

On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 5:54 PM Mats Wichmann  wrote:
>
> On 1/13/19 9:24 PM, William Deegan wrote:
> > FYI!
> >
> > -- Forwarded message -
> > From: Joan Uy Ang 
> > Date: Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 6:08 PM
> > Subject: SourceForge Project of the Week January 7th, 2019
> > To:
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > If you’re receiving this email it is because you are listed as an admin on
> > our next Projects of the Week Issue for January 7th, 2019 on the
> > SourceForge Blog.
>
> Which is pretty cool considering scons isn't "on" sourceforge except for
> the downloadable bundles  :)
>
>
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Re: [Scons-dev] Should we remove python 3.5 from our CI tests

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 4:12 AM Jonathon Reinhart
 wrote:
>
> I think SCons would be making a serious mistake if it dropped support
> for Python 3.5. Just because the distro is using an older version of
> SCons, doesn't mean that SCons shouldn't support the latest version of
> Python available on the system.
>
> This is particularly troublesome for me as I consider putting together
> a new build image, based on Debian 9, but with latest SCons installed
> from source.

Forgot to add that that sounds valid reason. I guess installing never Python
on older Debian is just too cumbersome.
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Re: [Scons-dev] Should we remove python 3.5 from our CI tests

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 7:39 PM Russel Winder  wrote:
>
> On Sat, 2018-07-21 at 13:54 -0700, Bill Deegan wrote:
> > […]
> >
> > Regardless I think we've covered the bases in this discussion and
> > let's
> > revisit Jan 2019 to see what makes sense.
> > The thoughtful discussion is much appreciated!
>
> In the end, SCons development must be a do-ocracy (an Apache concept I
> believe), in that those who actually do development stuff have vastly
> more votes than those who watch development. Obviously those who use
> and report back also must have a voice.

Just a reminder that mindless do-ocracy is the best way to kill backward
compatibility and lose user base. From the other side, it always possible to
fork away something like waf. :)
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Re: [Scons-dev] Should we remove python 3.5 from our CI tests

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 7:18 PM Gary Oberbrunner  wrote:
>
> Pretty certain Gary's with me in saying,
> SCons will support Python 2.7 and 3.5+ in (at least) the 3.x releases.
> Most likely through (at least) the end of 2018.
>
>
> Yes, absolutely. SCons is used by lots of people on older legacy systems. 
> IMHO it is and needs to be a solid, reliable build tool, not (just) a 
> leading-edge dev tool.

Speaking of which - what is the current code coverage?
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Re: [Scons-dev] Website Sources to GitHub

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 12:10 AM Bill Deegan  wrote:
>
> Anatoly,
>
> What do you mean by "PR interface from GitHub"?

The Edit button on GitHub interface allows to edit any file in
repository online and send PR request.

> Use Travis-ci or some such to build website?
> Or use something to render the wiki sources onto a "normal" website via 
> travis or buildbot or other?

I use https://www.netlify.com/ for both building and hosting static
content. Render wiki sources on the web site with added edit button,
yes.

>
> -Bill
>
> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 11:38 AM, anatoly techtonik  
> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 11:16 PM Mats Wichmann  wrote:
>> >
>> > On 07/20/2018 05:57 AM, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>> > > And add https:// to URL at the top https://github.com/SCons/scons for
>> > > the same reason.
>> > > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 5:31 PM anatoly techtonik  
>> > > wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Long time no see. =)
>> > >>
>> > >> Is there a plan to move website sources to https://github.com/SCons/web 
>> > >> ?
>> >
>> > Speaking of which (indirectly), the wiki *is* in github, but is
>> > surprisingly awkward to use.  Wikis kind of depend on many people being
>> > able to edit, and the normal way is you edit through your browser, but
>> > that behavior is disabled unless you are listed as a project committer.
>> > So all you can do is check out the project (looks like
>> > github.com/SCons/scons.wiki.git) and prepare pull requests.
>> >
>> > Just thought I'd mention
>>
>> That's certainly should be merged into website generator now that
>> there is PR interface from GitHub.
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Re: [Scons-dev] Website Sources to GitHub

[anatoly techtonik]

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 11:16 PM Mats Wichmann  wrote:
>
> On 07/20/2018 05:57 AM, anatoly techtonik wrote:
> > And add https:// to URL at the top https://github.com/SCons/scons for
> > the same reason.
> > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 5:31 PM anatoly techtonik  
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Long time no see. =)
> >>
> >> Is there a plan to move website sources to https://github.com/SCons/web ?
>
> Speaking of which (indirectly), the wiki *is* in github, but is
> surprisingly awkward to use.  Wikis kind of depend on many people being
> able to edit, and the normal way is you edit through your browser, but
> that behavior is disabled unless you are listed as a project committer.
> So all you can do is check out the project (looks like
> github.com/SCons/scons.wiki.git) and prepare pull requests.
>
> Just thought I'd mention

That's certainly should be merged into website generator now that
there is PR interface from GitHub.
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Re: [Scons-dev] Should we remove python 3.5 from our CI tests

[anatoly techtonik]

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 6:14 PM Russel Winder  wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2018-07-20 at 16:13 +0800, anatoly techtonik wrote:
> > On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 5:43 AM Jonathon Reinhart
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > No way. Distros (e.g. Debian 9) package Python 3.5.
> >
> > They are not going to upgrade to SCons 3.x, so it is safe.
> > https://packages.debian.org/stretch/scons
>
> Of course they have already upgraded.
>
> https://packages.debian.org/sid/scons

But the question was about Debian 9. Anyway 10th ships with Python 3.6
https://packages.debian.org/buster/python3 and SCons 3 with python2 as
dependency, which is most unfortunate, because SConstructs will start
to break not when SCons switched to next major version, but when next
Debian hideously updates dependency to python3. =/

But at least Python 3.5 can be forgotten.

> +1 for dropping 2.7 ;-)

2.7 +1 == 2.8 =)
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Re: [Scons-dev] Website Sources to GitHub

[anatoly techtonik]

And add https:// to URL at the top https://github.com/SCons/scons for
the same reason.
On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 5:31 PM anatoly techtonik  wrote:
>
> Long time no see. =)
>
> Is there a plan to move website sources to https://github.com/SCons/web ?
>
> And setup redirect from https://www.scons.org/ to https://scons.org/ for
> consistency?
>
> --
> anatoly t.



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[Scons-dev] Website Sources to GitHub

[anatoly techtonik]

Long time no see. =)

Is there a plan to move website sources to https://github.com/SCons/web ?

And setup redirect from https://www.scons.org/ to https://scons.org/ for
consistency?

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Re: [Scons-dev] Should we remove python 3.5 from our CI tests

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 5:43 AM Jonathon Reinhart
 wrote:
>
> No way. Distros (e.g. Debian 9) package Python 3.5.

They are not going to upgrade to SCons 3.x, so it is safe.
https://packages.debian.org/stretch/scons

> >> Downside is longer ci iterations and using more resources from the
> >> generously free ci platforms.
> >
> > I'd vote - once 3.7 is out (that likely next month, no?), 3.5 should be
> > dropped. Can't test every version.

+1 for dropping 3.5. 3.7 has some nifty features, but that maybe
incompatible with 2.7
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Re: [Scons-dev] [Scons-users] Github Project renamed from SConsProject to SCons

[anatoly techtonik]

Awesome. ) More proposals from my side.

1. SCons repos need `scons` label to compete in this list:
https://github.com/topics/scons

2. SCons website need to be moved to GitHub as well:
https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons-new-website
https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons-website

This should probably be killed:
https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons-pelican-bootstrap3

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 10:00 PM, Bill Deegan  wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Bassem Girgis  wrote:
>>
>> This is great news. I would recommend consolidating all the online
>> references to the new repo. Also what is the role of the bitbucket repo? The
>> user contribution builders also need some sorting. I would be more than glad
>> to help in any activity.
>
>
> Where are you seeing references to the bitbucket repo?
> Most likely they should all be changed.
>
> At this point the bitbucket repo is just historical.
> There are some outstanding pull requests which have yet to be migrated to
> github.
>
> -Bill
>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Bassem
>>
>> 
>> Bassem Girgis, PhD
>> Cell: +1(256)479-6124
>>
>> On Nov 22, 2017 10:48 AM, "Eric Fahlgren"  wrote:
>>>
>>> Special thanks to you, Bill, and all the others for reviving SCons and
>>> bringing it back to active life!  It made my life so much easier being able
>>> to continue using SCons as part of our migration to Python 3.  I had been
>>> right at the start of attempting to convert our build system over to CMake
>>> when the stable 3.0 port came out, which saved me untold hours (or days or
>>> weeks) of converting our build system, some parts of which are almost 20
>>> years old now.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 7:11 AM, Bill Deegan 
>>> wrote:

 Special Thanks to Anatoly for tracking down the previous owner of
 "SCons" and asking him to change thus freeing up SCons.

 Special Thanks to Steve Constable (formerly SCons on github) for
 changing his github user id to free up SCons!

 You will have to update your remote settings under git.

 Assuming "upstream" was the remote name you're using to point at the
 master SCons repo, the following command will update your git sandbox.

 git remote set-url upstream g...@github.com:SCons/scons.git

 I'll be updating various bits of SCons wiki, buildbot, and website today
 to make sure they are all pointing at the proper (changed) URLs.

 -Bill Deegan
 SCons Project Co-Manager




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[Scons-dev] Site News Update

[anatoly techtonik]

Hi,

Nice to see things are moving.

I wonder why site is not updated with new info?
Is it hard or just not included in any release checklists?

http://scons.org/tag/news.html

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Re: [Scons-dev] SCons moves to GitHub! https://github.com/SConsProject/scons

[anatoly techtonik]

I pushed my repository to https://github.com/techtonik/sconsize
and now git clone downloads only 9 Mb instead of 100 Mb,

$ git clone https://github.com/techtonik/sconsize
...
Receiving objects: 100% (50034/50034), 9.08 MiB | 1.48 MiB/s, done.

Cloning official repo still takes 10 times longer.

$ git clone https://github.com/SConsProject/scons
...
Receiving objects: 100% (51561/51561), 109.12 MiB | 1.06 MiB/s, done.



On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Dirk Bächle <tshor...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Anatoly,
>
>
> this isn't quite correct. The figures you show here are for
>
> - removing the docbook folder, AND
>
> - compressing the repository.
>
> Your pastebin shows that you don't run a compression *before* removing
> docbook. If I do a fresh checkout:
>
> git clone https://github.com/SConsProject/scons
>
> and then a
>
> git reflog expire --expire=now --all && git gc --prune=now --aggressive
>
> I get
>
> git count-objects -vH
>
> ...
>
> size-pack: 12.26 MiB
>
> So, compressing the repo is a good idea in general, and I'm totally for it.
> But removing docbook (which isn't easily possible anyway because our doc
> toolchain relies on it currently) would save us only 2MB roughly.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Dirk
>
>
> On 24.09.2017 10:50, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>>
>> Just removing docbook-xsl-1.76.1 brings compressed repository
>> size from 110.50 MiB down to 10.45 MiB
>>
>> https://pastebin.mozilla.org/9068127
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 10:50 AM, anatoly techtonik <techto...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> HI Bill.
>>>
>>> History is ok, but repository size is now too big.
>>>
>>>  Receiving objects: 100% (51561/51561), 109.12 MiB | 1.08 MiB/s,
>>> done.
>>>
>>> We should take the opportunity to clean up binaries
>>> and huge commits made by mistake. I am trying to
>>> see what are they.
>>>
>
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Re: [Scons-dev] SCons moves to GitHub! https://github.com/SConsProject/scons

[anatoly techtonik]

Just removing docbook-xsl-1.76.1 brings compressed repository
size from 110.50 MiB down to 10.45 MiB

https://pastebin.mozilla.org/9068127

On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 10:50 AM, anatoly techtonik <techto...@gmail.com> wrote:
> HI Bill.
>
> History is ok, but repository size is now too big.
>
> Receiving objects: 100% (51561/51561), 109.12 MiB | 1.08 MiB/s, done.
>
> We should take the opportunity to clean up binaries
> and huge commits made by mistake. I am trying to
> see what are they.
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 10:37 PM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com> 
> wrote:
>> Anatoly,
>>
>> How's this one look?
>> https://github.com/SConsProject/test/commits/master/src/script/scons.py
>>
>> As far as I can tell the hg-fast-import did a proper conversion.
>> Please take a look and let me know if you see any issues, if not,I'll pull
>> the other repo and migrate the changes.
>>
>> -Bill
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> let me try re-converting with hg-fast-import.
>>> The internets say it does a better job.
>>>
>>> -Bill
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 2:13 PM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Looks that way. This repo was converted earlier than the main one.
>>>>
>>>> https://github.com/SConsProject/scons-gh-convert-git/commits/master/src/script/scons.py
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Must be the conversion from multiple heads to one, and the current one
>>>>> was short?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 6:46 AM, anatoly techtonik <techto...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Except that all history is lost on master.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://github.com/SConsProject/scons/commits/master/src/script
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blame doesn't show anything useful too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 1:34 PM, Jonathon Reinhart
>>>>>> <jonathon.reinh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> > I am confident that this was the right move. I see this really
>>>>>> > lowering the
>>>>>> > barrier to entry for people wishing to contribute.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Bill Deegan
>>>>>> > <b...@baddogconsulting.com>
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Greetings,
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Well the day has finally come.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> SCons is moving to Github and git.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Outstanding pull requests on bitbucket.org will need to be migrated
>>>>>> >> to the
>>>>>> >> new repo.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> The bugtracker is still at scons.tigris.org, but will be moved (real
>>>>>> >> soon
>>>>>> >> now) to github.
>>>>>> >> Dirk has a start on a script to migrate from scons.tigris.org, but
>>>>>> >> we need
>>>>>> >> some help completing the logic to upload the bugs (and their
>>>>>> >> attachments) to
>>>>>> >> github.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> The wiki is still at https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/wiki, but
>>>>>> >> will also
>>>>>> >> be migrated real soon now.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> The Project repo is now at:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> https://github.com/SConsProject/scons
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> There is another test repo we will use to work on migrating the
>>>>>> >> issues and
>>>>>> >> wiki. Please do not use that repo. (
>>>>>> >> https://github.com/SConsProject/scons-gh-convert-git )
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> -Bill
>>>>>> >> SCons Project Co-Manager
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> ___
>>>>>> >> Scons-dev mailing list
>>>>>> >> Scons-dev@scons.org
>>>>>> >> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > ___
>>>>>> > Scons-dev mailing list
>>>>>> > Scons-dev@scons.org
>>>>>> > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
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>>>>>> ___
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>>>>>> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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Re: [Scons-dev] SCons moves to GitHub! https://github.com/SConsProject/scons

[anatoly techtonik]

HI Bill.

History is ok, but repository size is now too big.

Receiving objects: 100% (51561/51561), 109.12 MiB | 1.08 MiB/s, done.

We should take the opportunity to clean up binaries
and huge commits made by mistake. I am trying to
see what are they.


On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 10:37 PM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com> wrote:
> Anatoly,
>
> How's this one look?
> https://github.com/SConsProject/test/commits/master/src/script/scons.py
>
> As far as I can tell the hg-fast-import did a proper conversion.
> Please take a look and let me know if you see any issues, if not,I'll pull
> the other repo and migrate the changes.
>
> -Bill
>
> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> let me try re-converting with hg-fast-import.
>> The internets say it does a better job.
>>
>> -Bill
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 2:13 PM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Looks that way. This repo was converted earlier than the main one.
>>>
>>> https://github.com/SConsProject/scons-gh-convert-git/commits/master/src/script/scons.py
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Must be the conversion from multiple heads to one, and the current one
>>>> was short?
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 6:46 AM, anatoly techtonik <techto...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Except that all history is lost on master.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://github.com/SConsProject/scons/commits/master/src/script
>>>>>
>>>>> Blame doesn't show anything useful too.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 1:34 PM, Jonathon Reinhart
>>>>> <jonathon.reinh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> > I am confident that this was the right move. I see this really
>>>>> > lowering the
>>>>> > barrier to entry for people wishing to contribute.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Bill Deegan
>>>>> > <b...@baddogconsulting.com>
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Greetings,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Well the day has finally come.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> SCons is moving to Github and git.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Outstanding pull requests on bitbucket.org will need to be migrated
>>>>> >> to the
>>>>> >> new repo.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> The bugtracker is still at scons.tigris.org, but will be moved (real
>>>>> >> soon
>>>>> >> now) to github.
>>>>> >> Dirk has a start on a script to migrate from scons.tigris.org, but
>>>>> >> we need
>>>>> >> some help completing the logic to upload the bugs (and their
>>>>> >> attachments) to
>>>>> >> github.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> The wiki is still at https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/wiki, but
>>>>> >> will also
>>>>> >> be migrated real soon now.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> The Project repo is now at:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> https://github.com/SConsProject/scons
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> There is another test repo we will use to work on migrating the
>>>>> >> issues and
>>>>> >> wiki. Please do not use that repo. (
>>>>> >> https://github.com/SConsProject/scons-gh-convert-git )
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> -Bill
>>>>> >> SCons Project Co-Manager
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> ___
>>>>> >> Scons-dev mailing list
>>>>> >> Scons-dev@scons.org
>>>>> >> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
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>>>>> > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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[Scons-dev] SCons run phases

[anatoly techtonik]

Hi,

I've tried to explain how SCons run works. Please, tell me that I wrote
everything correctly.

https://stackoverflow.com/documentation/scons/10170/scons-run-phases

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Re: [Scons-dev] .scons/

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Russel Winder <rus...@winder.org.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 2017-05-21 at 15:18 +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>> I am thinking about introducing project level .scons/
>> directory located in the same directory as top level
>> SConstruct.
>
> I believe there is already a per project capability using the same
> naming as for per person. So:
>
> /site_scons/site_tools

Yes. There is. However, the convention is awkward. I'd deprecate it
for something more up to date with modern standard. And those
standards say that configuration for various development helpers
is better kept separated by prefixing it with dotted name.

Another reason is that "tools" concept is not intuitive, because
SCons tools usually wrap real tools and that creates confusion. It
is better if plugins wrap tools.
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Re: [Scons-dev] Windows executables

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 4:22 AM, William Blevins  wrote:
> Team,
>
> I have a really dumb question (probably).

Dumb questions are the most interesting. =)

> Some of the SCons tests that execute binaries have code to check whether or
> not the platform is win32. If win32, then add ".exe" extension to the
> executable name. Is this a requirement or just a convention?
>
> Can you not run an executable on Windows that doesn't have the extension?

Native Windows file systems doesn't have flag that marks file as
executable, so it uses file extension to figure that out. Well, you
still can specify custom commands to run for specific extensions
http://stackoverflow.com/a/1936078/239247
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Re: [Scons-dev] pip install scons

[anatoly techtonik]

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Alexandre Feblot  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Supporting multiple versions at the same time will be required as soon as a
> SCons release breaks compatibility. If you want your older product sources
> built with an old SCons to keep building, you need to keep this old Scons
> available for them.

And what `scons` binary should refer to then?

> Unless virtual env is the official and documented method to have multiple
> versions in production? (never used it, don't know exactly how it's supposed
> to be used).

Try and tell us your experience.
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Re: [Scons-dev] Hg vs Git

[anatoly techtonik]

To sum up my opinion - I am not against going to Git+GitHub, but only
when current repository history is cleaned up of the garbage, such as
DocBook templates and is kept small of that garbage and binary files.
SCons repository size shows that it is untidy mess.
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Re: [Scons-dev] Hg vs Git

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 8:13 PM, Bill Deegan  wrote:
> All,
>
> So it sounds like (from limited consensus), that switching to Git now, would
> remove a significant barrier to contributing code/fixes?

No. Let's run a Git mirror and see how many fixes will end up there.
HG is able to pull them,
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Re: [Scons-dev] Two questions…

[anatoly techtonik]

On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Russel Winder  wrote:
> 1. Is there a good reasons for having Perl code in our SCons
> repository?

Where?

> 2. Is there a good reason why we have lots of Python code in XML files?
>
> Oh and…
>
> 3. Is there any reason why we should not switch from DocBook/XML to
> Asciidoctor for all the documentation?

There is only reason - lack of manpower to review alternatives and do
transition.

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Re: [Scons-dev] pip install scons

[anatoly techtonik]

On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 8:43 PM, Bill Deegan  wrote:
> One question for the user base would be if anyone uses this ability anymore?
> If not, good let's drop it.
>
> I'm all for moving to a pip based install as the primary method, with
> scons-local still supported.
> Though perhaps single file scons-local would be useful and/or better?
>
> Thoughts?

First, the status quo needs to be documented - blog post or something.
It took me few years to figure SCons installation scenarios,  and I am
still not 100% sure that I get everything right, especially on Linux/OS X.

I would drop hacks to install multiple versions of SCons into single
Python environment in favor of using multiple environments.

Then I would also consider refactoring SCons-local to SCons portable
making current codebase portable by default, so that you can run
SCons as a Python package.

Speaking of portability, I'd also experiment with modular SCons
structure - make a version that consists of core with all tools stripped
and an ability to quickly add/discover/embed modules to that.

So that people can construct their maintainable set and checkin
it to their repository.

So, goals:

1. one SCons per Python

2. easy override with own importable SCons
(own SCons committed to repository)

3. describe SCons installation scenarios

4. refactor SCons-local to copy of repository source

5. experiment with modular structure

P.S. I am getting back to it from
https://github.com/GodotBuilder/godot-builds/pull/2
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Re: [Scons-dev] Repository README file

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Russel Winder  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Has anyone had a read over of the README.rst file recently to make sure
> it is still up to date and correct?

No, but if you're going to proofread this, making a small commit to
README.rst with a note that it was reviewed for 2.5.0 will make it it
easier to answer this question later on.

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Re: [Scons-dev] Release 2.5.0

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:01 PM, Bill Deegan  wrote:
> Anatoly,
>
> Why would they be rebuilding the cache?
> The contents are the same, it's simply the directory structure which
> changes.
>
> Most users use the cachedir because building the contents thereof is
> "expensive".
> Preserving what they've build when we're re-organizing the storage makes a
> lot of sense.
>
> If they're just going to wipe out their old cache none of this hurts them.
>
> So to put it simply, there will be a migration script provided.
> The method listed by Tom looks good to me.


I expect that cache needs to be cleaned once in a while. If target binary, such
as the one for godot engine is 20Mb, then after 100 builds the wasted space
will be 2Gb.

How SCons helps to keep cache clean of outdates files? I think that migration
script should go somewhere close.
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[Scons-dev] Missing site entry for 2.5.0

[anatoly techtonik]

Hi,

I can barely keep up with amount of incoming mail, so
I can't reply timely to all threads. Sorry. Today I noticed
that 2.5.0 available from
https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SCons
is not announced on releases page
http://scons.org/tag/releases.html

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Re: [Scons-dev] pip install scons

[anatoly techtonik]

Here is SO bug 
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/14296531/what-does-error-option-single-version-externally-managed-not-recognized-ind

I think that the culprit is that SCons historically allowed to install
multiple versions of itself side by side. Maybe that's not actual
anymore?

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Jason Kenny  wrote:
> Ya,
>
>
>
> So no change.
>
>
>
> Oddly enough it works on Ubuntu, but fails on Red Hat, and Windows.
>
>
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Jason Kenny
> Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 4:51 PM
> To: Bill Deegan
>
>
> Cc: SCons developer list
> Subject: Re: [Scons-dev] pip install scons
>
>
>
>
>
> Bill,
>
> I think the point of this is that it is the latest version. Pip 8.1 is the
> latest and it is failing.
>
>
>
> I will try to see if a reinstall will correct the issues
>
>
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Bill Deegan
> Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 2:30 PM
> To: Jason Kenny
> Cc: SCons developer list
> Subject: Re: [Scons-dev] pip install scons
>
>
>
> Jason,
>
> O.k. I've seen that before, but if you upgrade to latest pip
> (pip install --upgrade pip)
> It should install fine.
>
> You're issue is covered in bug:
> http://scons.tigris.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=2769
>
> I'll take another look at it today if I get a chance.
> -Bill
>
> On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Jason Kenny  wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
>
>
> One windows and Linux the error is the same…
>
>> python --version
>
> Python 2.7.10
>
>> pip --version
>
> pip 8.1.2 from C:\Python27\lib\site-packages (python 2.7)
>
>>pip install scons
>
> Collecting scons
>
>   Using cached scons-2.4.1.tar.gz
>
> Installing collected packages: scons
>
>   Running setup.py install for scons ... error
>
> Complete output from command c:\python27\python.exe -u -c "import
> setuptools, tokenize;__file__='c:\\users\\master\\
>
> appdata\\local\\temp\\pip-build-wv5sur\\scons\\setup.py';exec(compile(getattr(tokenize,
> 'open', open)(__file__).read().r
>
> eplace('\r\n', '\n'), __file__, 'exec'))" install --record
> c:\users\master\appdata\local\temp\pip-4cj9x2-record\install-
>
> record.txt --single-version-externally-managed --compile:
>
> usage: -c [global_opts] cmd1 [cmd1_opts] [cmd2 [cmd2_opts] ...]
>
>or: -c --help [cmd1 cmd2 ...]
>
>or: -c --help-commands
>
>or: -c cmd --help
>
>
>
> error: option --single-version-externally-managed not recognized
>
>
>
> 
>
> Command "c:\python27\python.exe -u -c "import setuptools,
> tokenize;__file__='c:\\users\\master\\appdata\\local\\temp\\pi
>
> p-build-wv5sur\\scons\\setup.py';exec(compile(getattr(tokenize, 'open',
> open)(__file__).read().replace('\r\n', '\n'), __
>
> file__, 'exec'))" install --record
> c:\users\master\appdata\local\temp\pip-4cj9x2-record\install-record.txt
> --single-vers
>
> ion-externally-managed --compile" failed with error code 1 in
> c:\users\master\appdata\local\temp\pip-build-wv5sur\scons\
>
>
>
> I added in bold what the main error seems to be. I see this for Linux and
> Windows ( have not tried Mac)
>
> Jason
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
>
>
> From: Bill Deegan
> Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 11:08 AM
> To: SCons developer list
> Subject: Re: [Scons-dev] pip install scons
>
>
>
> Jason,
>
> As far as I know, if you have an updated version of pip it works.
> If you're seeing otherwise with current version of SCons, please post what
> errors you're seeing.
>
> -Bill
>
> On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 11:54 AM, Jason Kenny  wrote:
>
> HI guys,
>
>
>
> What is the status of pip install of SCons. I been trying to integrate this
> with Parts, as well use it for some other projects via automating a pip
> install. On windows and Linux I am having failures.
>
>
>
> Is anyone else seeing these issue, or is this known to not be stable?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Scons-dev] Release 2.5.0

[anatoly techtonik]

Migration won't help old clients who will be rebuilding the cache.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 8:44 PM, William Blevins  wrote:
> Automatic migration sounds legit to me. I just didn't want a SCons option
> for it or something like that :)
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 4:04 PM, Tom Tanner (BLOOMBERG/ LONDON)
>  wrote:
>>
>> mea culpa. I meant to get round to this with
>>
>> 1) Does cachedir exist - if not, create and create config file to indicate
>> 2 char dir name
>> 2) Does cachedir have a config file. if so, read it , otherwise set 1 char
>> dir name
>> 3) update script to copying / moving cache and write version file
>>
>> From: scons-dev@scons.org At: Feb 17 2016 23:22:22
>> To: scons-dev@scons.org
>> Subject: Re: [Scons-dev] Release 2.5.0
>>
>> William,
>>
>> Thinking about what we'd need to pull
>>
>> https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/pull-requests/302/change-the-cache-to-use-2-character/diff
>> Into 2.5.
>>
>> Seems like perhaps default to old one character cachedir, enable 2 two
>> character with deprecation notice.
>> Include tool to migrate.
>> Release notes.
>> Deprecation notice when not switched to 2 char mode.
>>
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> -Bill
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:30 PM, William Blevins 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Bill,
>>>
>>> Are we waiting on anything for 2.5.0? I haven't seen any hint of a
>>> stubprocess pull request.
>>>
>>> V/R,
>>> William
>>>
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Re: [Scons-dev] Missing Wiki page on pkg-config

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 11:01 PM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com> wrote:
> Anatoly,
>
> Yes.
> Was it you or Dirk or Gary who was also trying various upgrade/migrations?

I don't know. I upgraded MoinMoin a few times, but never looked into
its internal structures, and I don't remember having a backup for it.

> On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 2:26 PM, anatoly techtonik <techto...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> If I remember correctly MoinMoin is file based, so every page is a
>> separate file. No?
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Re: [Scons-dev] Missing Wiki page on pkg-config

[anatoly techtonik]

If I remember correctly MoinMoin is file based, so every page is a
separate file. No?
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Re: [Scons-dev] Mercurial remote tracking

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Russel Winder <rus...@winder.org.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 2016-01-31 at 21:57 +0200, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>
> […]
>> Catching magical bugs from merges that join code that was too far
>> away causes much more extra work than just rebasing your branch.
>> What kind of extra work can be caused by rebase?
>
> An unrebased repository should pass the tests. Doing a pull request and
> merge should not cause extra problems, there should be no weird merge
> issues. Rebasing can make a nicer changeset: witness the mess of my
> original changes to the D tooling some while ago. The problem of rebase
> is the reordering of changes that can lead to new and sometimes
> spurious of ten critical new merge conflicts.

Merge or rebase, the sum of code is the same. If there is merge conflict - it
is good for the reason that you've given the signal that the code is modified.
It is much worse when some API function was removed in some other
commit and you try to call this function. Merge won't save you from this, but
rebase will get nicer changeset which is easier to review.

Merge - more work for reviewer if there are conflicts.
Rebase - more work for submitter.

Sometimes submitters fails at rebasing. I was able to learn rebase in Git
only today while doing this for Jison (and rebased to a wring branch that
contains generated content).

>> > I think the only use
>> > case for rebase (other than with the svn plugin) is to create
>> > changesets for pull requests from a repository that has never been
>> > published.
>>
>> I don't see the connection. You send pull request from your branch,
>> and this branch is not merged, not reviewed, may be dropped at all.
>> In Git world people don't base his work on such branches. Not that
>> much in Mercurial, so "rebases are evil" is a Mercurial way of doing
>> things.
>
> ?
>
> I do not follow the text here, sorry.

If your repository is not the main one, nobody cares if it is published or
not and nobody fetches from it on their own - only when you send pull
and ask people to fetch and merge your branch immediately. While
you work on your changes, I wouldn't expect anybody to pull from you
and expect that these changes won't be rebased - rebase is a common
thing in Git world and uncommon in Mercurial.

>> > I tend to publish repositories and take pull requests, so
>> > when creating the final pull request, to rebase would be to
>> > invalidate
>> > rather than simply amend, history.
>>
>> There is a logical disconnection in your post. You say you take pull
>> requests, but then say that rebase invalidates history only when pull
>> requests are created. There are two logical outcomes:
>
> Where is the disconnect?

Below.

>> 1. You don't use rebases, because you don't create pull requests
>> 2. You wound not use rebase, because it "invalidates" history
>
> I am not sure how this relates.

This relates to the previous block. "Take" vs "create" pull requests
is the point of confusion.

>> An interesting observation is that amend is not "invalidation" of
>> history, so when you erase previous change and commit message
>> it is not invalidation?
>>
>> If you care about history, use Mercurial.
>
> Only if you care about persistence of the names of the branches and
> branch structures over all merges. This is the core Git vs. Mercurial
> debate really. Everything else is secondary.

Except that Git allows to kill remote repository history with force
command. Also, HG bookmarks make names less persistent.

>> > […]
>>
>> Google doesn't know what is "transient in-repo branch". You say
>> that persistent branches are a royal pain, so you prefer to dispose
>> of branch (and lose history of what branch was merged, right?). If
>> you don't rebasing, you need HG bookmarks. You history will be
>> save and sound with them.
>
> What it comes down to is that Mercurial preserves the names of branches
> for eternity and this does not work for people used to using Git. There
> is history and history. The changesets and the labels of the changesets
> are two separate domain. For reasonable workflows, history preservation
> of changesets is more important than history preservations of labels.

I don't know what is "reasonable workflow" workflow. I agree that labels
should be parallel to changesets, but they still a part of history. If you
create feature branches named after features and bugs, you don't want to
lose information about them in annotate output.

BTW, does Git preserve branch names after merge? I've heard that you
need --no-ff  to preserve history, so by default it is just a lot stream of
commits

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Re: [Scons-dev] Shipping one time migration scripts with SCons

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 12:57 AM, William Blevins <wblevins...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 9:13 PM, Dirk Bächle <tshor...@gmx.de> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Anatoly,
>>
>> On 01.02.2016 20:14, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> There is an interesting thread, which needs some
>>> consensus.
>>>
>>> https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/pull-requests/302/change-the-cache-to-use-2-character/
>>>
>>
>> "consensus" between whom? And what is your concrete idea about how this
>> consensus should be reached? It looks to me as if the issue has been
>> properly discussed among the people that are actively working on the pull
>> request...and they've reached a consensus already.
>> One that I support too, I might add...
>
>
> I think that a script of this nature should be revision controlled with the
> software release that it is related to. I'm not sure when this script should
> be removed sadly.

I am not for removing the script. I am against adding it to PATH. Let people
do migrations, but they can discover and/or download the script the other
way. So I am comfortable with it in main SCons repository.

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Re: [Scons-dev] Missing Wiki page on pkg-config

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 7:43 PM, Dirk Bächle <tshor...@gmx.de> wrote:
> On 31.01.2016 13:23, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>>
>> https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/wiki/ParseConfig is missing,
>> referenced from
>> https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/wiki/UsingPkgConfig
>>
>
> hint: ParseConfig is described in the UserGuide.

Wiki usually contains more info and useful user feedback. So is it
possible to recover that page to ensure that nothing important was
lost?

>
>> By the way, is there a tool for SCons that can do the job of
>> pkg-config? Looks like it is a simple parser, no?
>
>
> Depends on what it is exactly that you're trying to parse under Windows for
> example, How do you plan to get at the required infos about which header and
> libs to include?

Currently it is done with
env.ParseConfig("pkg-config --libs --cflags $PKGCONFIG_FLAGS
pango" + backend + version_arg)
https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/scons/pango.py#L22

but it assumes that I have development libs installed on the system in
appropriate location. I am on Windows. But even on Linux I'd prefer not
to install anything anyway just to compile one package. So instead I
unpack 
http://win-builds.org/doku.php/1.5.0_packages#pango_1341-1_-_library_for_layout_and_rendering_of_text
and need to find all files there.

Is that feasible?

I also found this on PyPI - https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pykg-config/1.3.0
which seems like it may help.

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Re: [Scons-dev] Mercurial remote tracking

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 7:43 PM, Russel Winder <rus...@winder.org.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 2016-01-31 at 13:12 +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>> […]
>>
>> Qt allows to build beautiful interfaces. Don't you agree with that?
>
> As does GTK+3, Cocoa, wxWidgets, etc. The toolkit is only an enabler,
> the UI designer and implementer have to the really hard work.

So back to your first message, Qt is not guilty in that person who
coded the interface doesn't have a sufficient design skills and if
he used GTK+ the interface is likely to be ugly as well.

> […]
>> You avoid rebasing in Git? Why?
>
> It can cause extra work, and what is the point.

Catching magical bugs from merges that join code that was too far
away causes much more extra work than just rebasing your branch.
What kind of extra work can be caused by rebase?

> I think the only use
> case for rebase (other than with the svn plugin) is to create
> changesets for pull requests from a repository that has never been
> published.

I don't see the connection. You send pull request from your branch,
and this branch is not merged, not reviewed, may be dropped at all.
In Git world people don't base his work on such branches. Not that
much in Mercurial, so "rebases are evil" is a Mercurial way of doing
things.

> I tend to publish repositories and take pull requests, so
> when creating the final pull request, to rebase would be to invalidate
> rather than simply amend, history.

There is a logical disconnection in your post. You say you take pull
requests, but then say that rebase invalidates history only when pull
requests are created. There are two logical outcomes:

1. You don't use rebases, because you don't create pull requests
2. You wound not use rebase, because it "invalidates" history

An interesting observation is that amend is not "invalidation" of
history, so when you erase previous change and commit message
it is not invalidation?

If you care about history, use Mercurial.

> […]
>>
>> what's the point of "rather use Git" if you don't rebase? Do you use
>> GitHub - is that the reason?
>
> This single most important reason is transient in-repo branches.
> Mercurial persistent named branches are a right royal pain, Git
> internal branches are great for feature working.

Google doesn't know what is "transient in-repo branch". You say
that persistent branches are a royal pain, so you prefer to dispose
of branch (and lose history of what branch was merged, right?). If
you don't rebasing, you need HG bookmarks. You history will be
save and sound with them.
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Re: [Scons-dev] Missing Wiki page on pkg-config

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Russel Winder <rus...@winder.org.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 2016-01-31 at 16:51 +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
> […]
>>
>> Was it a code? Or a documentation?
>
> Not sure, but I have always thought pkg-config support was missing from
> SCons in the form of repository bound code rather than entries on
> wikis.
>
> I have quickly checked one of my bits into:
>
> https://bitbucket.org/russel/sconspkgconfig
>
> Sadly lacking in documentation just now.

So how can I use it? I don't have `pkg-config` installed and I can't install
pango binary package from MinGW, but I need to get to includes, libs and
C flags from this archive.

>> > I have a PkgConfig set up that works fine for me, I'll put it into
>> > a
>> > Git^H^H^H Mercurial repository on BitBucket in a minute.
>>
>> For Windows I hope.
>
> What's Windows?

A most popular desktop system in the world. Somehow it happens that
"Windows is awesome" and "Linux sucks 2016".

Also, a system where the problem with free mingw toolchain and
pkg-config is more actual than for systems where these were designed
to work.

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Re: [Scons-dev] On the state of CI

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Russel Winder <rus...@winder.org.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 2016-01-31 at 13:15 +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>> […]
>>
>> Drone looks dead for me. Not sure if dead drones want money much.
>> Have
>> you tried to offer it that money?
>
> I have not, and I am not sure I would for a FOSS project.

So, you're not going to donate to SCons Foundation? =(
And we could get a nice build graph representation for that
money.

> Codeship seems to be doing the job.
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[Scons-dev] Formula for CacheDir MD5 calculation

[anatoly techtonik]

Hi,

In 
https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/pull-requests/302/change-the-cache-to-use-2-character/diff
it looks like CacheDir() can grow endlessly and needs to be purged
from time to time. The PR propose a migration script for build cache,
but I think it is useless if the cache needs to be purged anyway.

The problems seems actual, because of presence of this page -
https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/wiki/LimitCacheSizeWithProgress

So, the question are - how does SCons decide when a new file should be
added into cache? How does it actually calculate MD5 to find file that
already exists in the cache? Docs don't explain this
http://www.scons.org/doc/HTML/scons-user/ch24.html#idp1403343476

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Re: [Scons-dev] SCons tests bottleneck (Re: CI, Semaphore, Shippable)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 12:04 PM, Russel Winder <rus...@winder.org.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 2016-01-30 at 12:03 +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Russel Winder <rus...@winder.org.uk>
>> wrote:
>> > I have asked Drone for special dispensation for long test times for
>> > SCons repositories.
>>
>> Have you tried to measure what exactly takes so much time and if it
>> is
>> possible to do something about it?
>
> Every full SCons test takes 17 to 25 minutes.

Have you tried to find out what takes the longest time to complete -
file operations, tree parsing, file reading, file writing, temp dir
creating - where the time is wasted most?
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Re: [Scons-dev] On the state of CI

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 12:02 PM, Russel Winder <rus...@winder.org.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 2016-01-30 at 11:57 +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>>
> […]
>> No surprises. Do you have a default branch for testing SCons on
>> drone.io?
>> Mine is here:
>>
>> https://drone.io/bitbucket.org/techtonik/scons
>>
>> But it looks like drone.io was disconnected from Google services and
>> I can
>> not login to it anymore.
>
> Last run 2015-11-25T08:16, run 87. Every single one has failed due to
> the 15 min barrier. Drone have not got back to me on this for my
> repository. Clearly Drone wants the money, not the kudos.

Drone looks dead for me. Not sure if dead drones want money much. Have
you tried to offer it that money?

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[Scons-dev] Missing Wiki page on pkg-config

[anatoly techtonik]

Hi,

https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/wiki/ParseConfig is missing,
referenced from
https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/wiki/UsingPkgConfig

By the way, is there a tool for SCons that can do the job of
pkg-config? Looks like it is a simple parser, no?

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Re: [Scons-dev] Missing Wiki page on pkg-config

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 4:30 PM, Russel Winder <rus...@winder.org.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 2016-01-31 at 15:23 +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>>
>> https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/wiki/ParseConfig is missing,
>> referenced from
>> https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/wiki/UsingPkgConfig
>>
>> By the way, is there a tool for SCons that can do the job of
>> pkg-config? Looks like it is a simple parser, no?
>
> Code should not be on wikis it should be in repositories.

Was it a code? Or a documentation?

> I have a PkgConfig set up that works fine for me, I'll put it into a
> Git^H^H^H Mercurial repository on BitBucket in a minute.

For Windows I hope.

> This is a tool per se, perhaps we need a directory of add-ons as well
> as tools on the website.

What is "tool per se"?

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Re: [Scons-dev] On the state of CI

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 11:21 AM, Russel Winder  wrote:
> I have a Drone.io account and have set up a Python 2.7 test CI on it
> for my SCons__Python3 repository and the python3-port branch. It's very
> red.

No surprises. Do you have a default branch for testing SCons on drone.io?
Mine is here:

https://drone.io/bitbucket.org/techtonik/scons

But it looks like drone.io was disconnected from Google services and I can
not login to it anymore.

>  https://drone.io/bitbucket.org/russel/scons__python3
>
> I have created Shippable and Semaphoe accounts, but there is no CI as
> yet because they cannot see public repositories only private ones.
>
> I have a Codehsip account and added a build:
>
> https://codeship.com/projects/129569
>
> TravisCI is GitHub only, so no activity on that.
>
> TeamCity is not SaaS, you need a server. No action.
>
> Jenkins is not not SaaS, you need a server. No action.
>
>
> Bamboo – experience using this with Groovy, Gant, and GPars was mixed,
> but I cannot find a free Bamboo service that connects with BitBucket.
> This is surprising.
>
>
> --
> Russel.
> =
> Dr Russel Winder  t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip:sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net
> 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: rus...@winder.org.uk
> London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
>
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Re: [Scons-dev] Mercurial remote tracking

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 11:56 AM, Russel Winder  wrote:
> HgView shows remote tracking branches.

AFAIK mercurial doesn't have remote tracking branches. So what is the
purpose of this letter? Inform about a bug in HgView or there is some
deeper rationale behind that?

> Pity HgView is a Qt application
> rather than a GTK+ one: it looks horrible on my screen, especially
> compared to gitg.

Why no screens then?

Also your assumption that tool defines the interface is wrong - it is
designer who uses the tool who makes it beautiful.

> I still prefer the Git transient branch model to the Mercurial
> persistent branch model.

I also like rebasing Git branches, but this can kill history.
Have you tried Evolve extension? And bookmarks?

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[Scons-dev] SCons tests bottleneck (Re: CI, Semaphore, Shippable)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Russel Winder  wrote:
> I have asked Drone for special dispensation for long test times for
> SCons repositories.

Have you tried to measure what exactly takes so much time and if it is
possible to do something about it?


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Re: [Scons-dev] Longer term plans

[anatoly techtonik]

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Russel Winder  wrote:
> Should we be looking to add type hinting to the SCons codebase. I
> suggest the answer is yes, the only question is when.

After we the mess with site and release announcements is cleaned up. For
example, I can not find announcement when Python 2.6 was officially
deprecated:

https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/src/e0da07486aa152636c15f7c82ab773fd1958b434/src/Announce.txt?at=default=file-view-default
https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/src/e0da07486aa152636c15f7c82ab773fd1958b434/src/CHANGES.txt?at=default=file-view-default
https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/src/e0da07486aa152636c15f7c82ab773fd1958b434/src/RELEASE.txt?at=default=file-view-default
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Re: [Scons-dev] New SCons.org website up

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 1:35 AM, Bill Deegan  wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> We've refreshed the website.
> Please let me know if you find any issues/comments/suggestions for
> improvement.

News - http://scons.org/tag/news.html
1. don't have dates
2. not a front page anymore
3. no "edit me on bitbucket" link to modify content

That's all for now.

Small design nit - Download link in header gets over right margin.
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Re: [Scons-dev] SCons developer DVCS survey

[anatoly techtonik]

I am 1 of 2 people out of 11 who still prefer Mercurial. OMG. =)

I wonder why Mercurial is considered bad. Is it just a poor user
experience with BitBucket or there is something more in it?

On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 6:02 PM, Bill Deegan  wrote:
> All,
>
> Please take a minute and fill out this survey.
> http://goo.gl/forms/0rLfb4M57t
>
> We've heard from a few folks who have strong opinions.
> I'm wondering if a simple survey will yield more broad opinion.
> Note I've note required login as I know some folks hate that, so it's honor
> system that you only enter one response.
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
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Re: [Scons-dev] A new architecture...

[anatoly techtonik]

On Sun, Dec 27, 2015 at 3:58 PM, Dirk Bächle  wrote:
>
> the discussions about new features in SCons during the last weeks, have led
> me to start working on some architectural changes
> for SCons. They aim at refactoring the module/package structure, such that
> it's possible to better support customized
>
> - Taskmasters
> - File signature calculation (currently fixed to MD5 hash sums)
> - Node factories (and connected with that custom Nodes)
> - Build and Node Info (and connected with that custom signature DBs, like a
> JSON implementation for easier debugging)

I am afraid I don't understand architectures without a visual representation.
In ideal world d3.js and Inkscape skills are taught in school, but maybe we
could at least try?

"refactoring module/package structure" is not a useful activity for me without
rationale, and "to better support" is not a good one.

1. problem
2. solution
3. action

Right now it is:

1. problem: some not good enough support
2. solution: refactoring and moving files
3. action: start working

Sorry for the harsh tome. Just want to be more constructive and extract a little
bit more value for those scarce bits of time that we here have.

> .
> Please note that my pull request doesn't directly implement and provide
> these functionalities (well, some of it), but simply tries to lay out the
> foundation for them. There is definitely more work ahead...

Where is the link to PR?

> Once we have this in place, it should be much easier to support e.g.
> additional Taskmasters like an
>
>   EspeciallyParanoidTaskmaster
>
> (see Tom Tanner's proposal at
> https://pairlist4.pair.net/pipermail/scons-users/2015-December/004320.html
> and following), or a
>
>   DebuggingTaskmaster

Where is it?
https://www.google.com/search?q=DebuggingTaskmaster

Looks like Bitbucket doesn't work for us.

> where you get a lot of additional info about the current "machine state",
> and can walk through a complete build in single steps.

What are the classes / objects that store the build state?

1. class FS (filesystem tree that is known to SCons)

Q. How to dump FS state?

2. class Node (a pointer to a Graph of build nodes)

Q. How to dump graph of build nodes?
A. Find one node, and fetch it's child, parent and discover the whole graph
this way.
Q. How?

3. Any other objects?

> I don't know when this PR will be ready, but just wanted to inform you all
> that someone is working on this somewhere. :)
> Your comments and suggestions are welcome.

I miss the "EventBuffer" for SCons to be able to review any architecture
refactoring. See Twisted logging to get the idea:

https://twistedmatrix.com/documents/15.2.1/core/howto/logger.html

A buffer with about 1000 events that could be dumped at any time during
SCons processing. It should at least include those type of events:

 - SCons state initialization phases
 - SCons state processing phase
 - Target building phase

It would be better to share your prototypes in small chunks and as
early as possible.
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Re: [Scons-dev] Code of conduct?

[anatoly techtonik]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 10:27 PM, William Blevins  wrote:
> I'm not opposed to a CoC; I'm just a skeptic neutral party.
>
> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Tim Jenness  wrote:
>>
>>
>> > On Dec 10, 2015, at 09:59 , Gary Oberbrunner 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > I don't see it that way. I see it as a proactive, positive step.
>> >
>>
>> +1
>>
>> > Look, right now there's a lot of, well, not-so-nice people in the world.
>> > Many of them hang out online. This isn't PC, it's a fact of modern life.
>> > This isn't going to get better; I think it's getting worse if anything.
>> > Saying "hey, we're a friendly and welcoming community" isn't pandering, 
>> > it's
>> > accepting that not everyone is nice, but saying we aim to be.
>>
>> The scons list has been fine in the 6 months I’ve been here. Funnily
>> enough it is only this recent code of conduct debate that has worried me
>> with talk of victims and SJW.
>>
>> I think a code of conduct would be great and I imagine it would have zero
>> effect on this community internally. The code of conduct is also an outwards
>> facing item, though, that indicates to people that scons is welcoming to new
>> people asking questions. Why would we object to that?
>
>
> I just think that people are innocent until proven guilty. If your
> organization needs a CoC, then I think that says something about the
> organization or perhaps about society. I am a skeptic of anyone who needs to
> wave a flag around saying that "we are descent people, believe us!" I see a
> CoC as that flag. I try not to judge, but it's the pessimist in me...

+1. Can't say better.

> I think that people who don't need to read the CoC will behave
> appropriately, and those who won't behave appropriately won't read the CoC.
> It isn't that people don't know the rules, some people just don't care.

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Re: [Scons-dev] Code of conduct?

[anatoly techtonik]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 8:10 PM, Tim Jenness  wrote:
>
>> On Dec 10, 2015, at 09:59 , Gary Oberbrunner  wrote:
>>
>> I don't see it that way. I see it as a proactive, positive step.
>>
>
> +1
>
>> Look, right now there's a lot of, well, not-so-nice people in the world. 
>> Many of them hang out online. This isn't PC, it's a fact of modern life. 
>> This isn't going to get better; I think it's getting worse if anything. 
>> Saying "hey, we're a friendly and welcoming community" isn't pandering, it's 
>> accepting that not everyone is nice, but saying we aim to be.
>
> The scons list has been fine in the 6 months I’ve been here. Funnily enough 
> it is only this recent code of conduct debate that has worried me with talk 
> of victims and SJW.
>
> I think a code of conduct would be great and I imagine it would have zero 
> effect on this community internally. The code of conduct is also an outwards 
> facing item, though, that indicates to people that scons is welcoming to new 
> people asking questions. Why would we object to that?

Achievements work better. https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pychievements/

And in the end communities be dominated by friendly and welcoming
online bots who will censor out everybody who is not agree with their
happy and optimistic view of the world and try to rise issues. =)
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Re: [Scons-dev] A new architecture...

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 5:36 PM, Dirk Bächle <tshor...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi Anatoly,
>
> On 28.12.2015 15:24, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>>
>>> Right now it is:
>>>
>>> 1. problem: some not good enough support
>>> 2. solution: refactoring and moving files
>>> 3. action: start working
>>>
>>> Sorry for the harsh tome. Just want to be more constructive and extract a
>>> little
>>> bit more value for those scarce bits of time that we here have.
>
>
> don't worry...if it's coming from you, I know that you're not trying to hurt
> me. So be as harsh with me as you want.
>
> Neither the pull request, nor the other mentioned changes, are finished or
> in a state ready to be published. My mail was thought to be nothing more
> than an announcement, sorry if you missed that point. I'll try to make this
> clearer next time, by prefixing the title with "Announcement:".

No. That's good. Don't bother yourself. At least I've felt some motivation to
implement that EventBuffer idea, and there is now a mailing list entry that I
can refer too if somebody will ask me about it.

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Re: [Scons-dev] Code of conduct?

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 10:57 PM, Bill Deegan  wrote:
> Anatoly,
>
> In the entire history of SCons we've only had a small handful of instances
> where any of the proposed CoC's might have been violated.
> So infrequent I can't remember the last one.
>
> That said, if you can prove harm or point to any project where it harmed
> their community to have a CoC, then I (and I expect the rest of the SCons
> developer list) would be interested in such.

And how should I prove it? I can speak only for myself, and myself hates
CoCs and any other dumb rules that people create, because they've
degraded their communication skills and are unable to teach each other.

> Nothing you've said thus far has been convincing to me (nor it seems any
> other community member).
> Otherwise it is speculation.
>
> I can say for certain that some organizations expect such when providing
> grant money to open source communities.
> For me that's sufficient reason.

Prooflinks, please.

Money was a invented as a tool to compensate people the loss of their time
for working on things that are hard to do. If somebody will find funding for
SCons that requires me being nice, I can do this job - no problem, but it is
hard for me to emit fake emotions when I don't feel this way.

> I will also say that if the SCons project finds that having a CoC is
> damaging to it's community, then we'll revise or revoke it as appropriate.
> (where damaging doesn't equal one person is being unreasonable or abusive
> and doesn't like having the fact that their behavior violates the CoC, but
> does equal contributions to the project including features and/or bugfixes
> and/or docs slow to a standstill, and/or usage of SCons diminishes in a
> meaningful way measurable to the adoption of a CoC).

I don't understand this paragraph. CoC is a garden wall for people like me.
If you have a real story why SCons community needs one - then it is ok, but
adopting some stupid policy just because somebody has one and because
it is fashionable - please don't add me to that flock - I want to have my own
will.
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Re: [Scons-dev] Code of conduct?

[anatoly techtonik]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 7:59 PM, Gary Oberbrunner  wrote:
> I don't see it that way. I see it as a proactive, positive step.
>
> Look, right now there's a lot of, well, not-so-nice people in the world.
> Many of them hang out online. This isn't PC, it's a fact of modern life.
> This isn't going to get better; I think it's getting worse if anything.
> Saying "hey, we're a friendly and welcoming community" isn't pandering, it's
> accepting that not everyone is nice, but saying we aim to be.
>
> At least that's my 2 cents.

No we are not. I am not 100% friendly, and not at all times. My message
would be "You don't need CoC to be friendly community, and you're welcome
to join us to try it out". That's one part. Another one is that
"Having CoC doesn't
make everyone nice and friendly, so we don't have a CoC. But we try to be
friendly, so you're welcome to join and help us."

There is also another message that is "We are all different, so being nice and
friendly may become very boring for some, so bear with those of us who may
be not so good sometimes".
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[Scons-dev] python-for-android

[anatoly techtonik]

http://python-for-android.readthedocs.org/en/latest/quickstart/

I don't have any Android projects, but I thought that the builder
by the link above is a pretty good fit for a SCons tool. In ideal
world I would join a company who uses Python and Android
to try and bring those two together (along with Parts), but
perhaps you have a better chance to already working there.

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Re: [Scons-dev] Code of conduct?

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:35 PM, Alexandre Feblot  wrote:
> Hi,
> Call me the Grinch, but I have the feeling there are 2 kinds of people in
> the world:
> * those who behave naturally, who don't need such written CoC because it is
> obvious for them,

And they are also +1, because it basically means - "let's everyone be like me".

> * those who would need it but definitely won't read and consider it because
> they think others are stupid / here to serve them / you name it...

And according to Newton's third law when there is action, there is a counter
action. So sooner or later expect something like lawyer guide "how to piss off
people without breaking the CoC". And then you need to think about
enforcement policy.. and then there won't be much discussions about code,
but more about who said what to whom and all that BS.

> Am I already too desperate about people? :-)
>
> That being said, I second Dirk: anything longer than one short and clear
> sentence per idea is TL;DR (IMHO).
>
> --
> Alexandre Feblot
>
> Le 7 déc. 2015 à 20:58, Dirk Bächle  a écrit :
>
> Hi all,
>
> On 04.12.2015 18:10, Bill Deegan wrote:
>
> All,
>
> Perhaps it's a good idea to add an official code of conduct for SCons.
> http://blog.codinghorror.com/the-hugging-will-continue-until-morale-improves/
>
> The following site seems to provide a reasonable code.
> http://contributor-covenant.org/
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> here's my opinion:
>
> - +1, in general. I don't mind having a CoC, and I fail to see how following
> this "mainstream" (allegedly) pattern could harm the project.
> - For my personal taste, the yahoo example provided by Gary is too long to
> read. Bill's and Russel's texts are shorter, and easier to digest for me as
> non-native speaker.
> - Simply adopting one of those options would be fine with me. @WBlevins: I
> would be opposed to the idea of then adding more regulations on top. It's
> not much more than a badge, that says: "We care." And when the time comes,
> we'll take actions and "care" without having to look up our CoC. We've done
> this successfully in the past...
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dirk
>
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Re: [Scons-dev] Code of conduct?

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 4:33 AM, Dirk Bächle  wrote:
> As Bill reported, people start to ask for a CoC when looking at a project.

What are their motivations?
1. "I am acting according to rules. I want to know if your rules match
those that I am acting."
2. "I am too vulnerable. I want to check if you will punish people who
will offend me."
3. ?

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Re: [Scons-dev] Code of conduct?

[anatoly techtonik]

On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 7:10 PM, Bill Deegan  wrote:
> All,
>
> Perhaps it's a good idea to add an official code of conduct for SCons.
> http://blog.codinghorror.com/the-hugging-will-continue-until-morale-improves/
>
> The following site seems to provide a reasonable code.
> http://contributor-covenant.org/
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -Bill
> p.s. as an aside I also work on Buildbot and they applied for an open source
> grant through Mozilla's $1M grant program. One of the questions was "Do you
> have a code of conduct".

After Gratipay clash with SJWs I got highly interested in
how mass media manipulation and political technology
works. So, can you explain the problem for you personally
and why you think CoC is a solution to this problem?

Answering to your question, I do not think that CoCs should
be applied just for the sake of having a CoC, so I am -1 for
blindly following the trends. Like using CMake for C projects.

If you want to go deeper into rabbit hole, you may want to
take a look at
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/golang-nuts/code/golang-nuts/Nl0UDXmCeVQ/xgNfyBrSAQAJ
but mind you - I didn't read the thread till the end, because
even given that I commented on it, I don't feel like I want to
waste more time on that.

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Re: [Scons-dev] SCons running on pypy?

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 7:01 PM, Bill Deegan  wrote:
> There is an existing framework "timings" though right now the data reporting
> is a bit broken.
> http://buildbot.scons.org/timings
>
> The records have subversion versions and mercurial SHA's as the index and
> are sorted numerically so that needs to be fixed.

Local HG repository maintains incremental versions of revisions too.

Where is the code that fetches revision numbers?
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Re: [Scons-dev] Multiple heads in repository

[anatoly techtonik]

Is it a problem with Mercurial or with Bitbucket? I mean
could we avoid that if we switch to Git or GitHub?

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 7:04 PM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com> wrote:
> I made a mistake.
> Then I fixed it.
> I had two sandboxes, and one had previous releases changes in it but not
> submitted. Then I submitted those.
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 12:22 AM, anatoly techtonik <techto...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Seems ok now. What went wrong?
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 1:54 AM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com>
>> wrote:
>> > should be fixed now.
>> > Let me know if it's not.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I'll take a look.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 1:31 PM, anatoly techtonik
>> >> <techto...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi,
>> >>>
>> >>> Looks like something is wrong with release process.
>> >>> Bitbucket reports multiple heads in default branch.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/src/tip/LICENSE?at=default=file-view-default
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> anatoly t.
>> >>>
>> >>> ___
>> >>> Scons-dev mailing list
>> >>> Scons-dev@scons.org
>> >>> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
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>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Scons-dev] Tests for SCons.Debug

[anatoly techtonik]

I see. The problem is that in professional reviews that
I used to, the phrase "Test?" from reviewer without any
other context means that the change needs a test that
is missing.

I also think that the conflict could be resolved earlier if
you let me know that you do not think that this change
should have an obligatory test. That was the point of
conflict.


On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 2:02 AM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com> wrote:
> Anatoly,
>
> If instead of being argumentative when asked some questions about your pull
> request, you'd simply answered the questions, it's likely we'd long have
> merged your pull request.
> But you prefer to argue.
>
> The process for a pull request is pretty simple.
> If the pull request changes something user visible then CHANGES.txt should
> be updated.
> If the pull request has a functional change, then there should be some
> tests.
>
> If I see either missing, I'll ask in the pull request for what's missing.
> If you think this process is unreasonable, then you should bring it to a
> discussion on the dev mailing list, and not argue about it in a pull
> request.
> If you think that testing the change would be overwhelming difficult or
> ineffective, then the pull requester is free to make that argument.
>
> For this pull request, I asked for tests.
> You responded with some posting  "Unit Testing Is Not a Panacea".
>
> If you'd simply answered the questions asked, you wouldn't have wasted
> anyone's times including your own.
> And if you'll simply answer the questions asked now, in the pull request,
> I'm sure we can get it merged.
>
> But if you continue to be argumentative, I'm likely to spend my time on less
> frustrating (and productive) tasks.
>
> -Bill
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 12:10 AM, anatoly techtonik <techto...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi.
>>
>> We can't make this merged, and I am wasting my emotions on
>> useless discussion instead of doing something useful for SCons.
>> Please tell me if you find it useful to write the test for the following
>> debug function, because I definitely don't see it as such:
>>
>>
>> https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/pull-requests/271/document-sconsdebugcaller_trace-behavior/diff
>>
>> --
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Re: [Scons-dev] Multiple heads in repository

[anatoly techtonik]

Seems ok now. What went wrong?

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 1:54 AM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com> wrote:
> should be fixed now.
> Let me know if it's not.
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I'll take a look.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 1:31 PM, anatoly techtonik <techto...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Looks like something is wrong with release process.
>>> Bitbucket reports multiple heads in default branch.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/src/tip/LICENSE?at=default=file-view-default
>>>
>>> --
>>> anatoly t.
>>>
>>> ___
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>>
>
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[Scons-dev] Tests for SCons.Debug

[anatoly techtonik]

Hi.

We can't make this merged, and I am wasting my emotions on
useless discussion instead of doing something useful for SCons.
Please tell me if you find it useful to write the test for the following
debug function, because I definitely don't see it as such:

https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/pull-requests/271/document-sconsdebugcaller_trace-behavior/diff

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Re: [Scons-dev] Would requiring Python 2.7.4 or above be a problem for future release?

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 11:20 PM, Bill Deegan  wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> To drop the requirement for pywin32, it may be necessary to require python
> 2.7.4 or above.

Where this conclusion comes from?

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[Scons-dev] Argumentation for Python 2.6 support removal

[anatoly techtonik]

Hi,

Do we have any list specific incompatibilities with Python 2.6? What was
the main reason for that sign. I am asking because it seems to me that
consensus is being reached based on feelings instead of data, and
that looks like a death spiral to me.

-- SUPPORT FOR PYTHON VERSIONS BEFORE 2.7 IS NOW DEPRECATED

   ***IMPORTANT***: This release is the last version of SCons to support
   Python versions older than 2.7.  This release will warn if you are
   running on Python 2.6 or older; future releases will probably not
   work at all, as we are moving toward supporting Python 3.
   Use --warn=no-python-version to suppress the warning if needed.

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Re: [Scons-dev] SCons running on pypy?

[anatoly techtonik]

I guess the main question is how to run that performance comparison?

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 7:40 PM, Bill Deegan  wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> Is anyone running SCons on pypy?
> Any anecdotal performance comparison data?
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
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Re: [Scons-dev] Would requiring Python 2.7.4 or above be a problem for future release?

[anatoly techtonik]

My opinion that Python 3 is a trap. Before going this way and breaking
stuff, just
try to port anything to this language to see for yourself. Mercurial
is still Python 2
and many other tools.

Now can you show that _scons_subprocess.py is actually used. I see that it
should only imported on Python 2.4

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 11:27 AM, anatoly techtonik <techto...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 11:20 PM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com> 
> wrote:
>> Greetings,
>>
>> To drop the requirement for pywin32, it may be necessary to require python
>> 2.7.4 or above.
>
> Where this conclusion comes from?
>
> --
> anatoly t.



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Re: [Scons-dev] Show source SConscript on error

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 11:12 PM, Jason Kenny  wrote:

> A node can be used in many different files. The creation of a node is more
> like:
>
>
>
> Env.File() => env.fs.file() => look up file in fs tree, if not found
> create a new one.
>
But who creates the actual node - Node() constructor?


> The main issue here is that the loop up can happen in many different
> places. So I am not sure it is clear if a given call is making a node or
> trying to get one plus even if we had every node how do we know which
> source is the right one use?
>
Is it possible to create infinite loop in SCons?
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Re: [Scons-dev] SCons 2.4.1 available via pypi

[anatoly techtonik]

https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SCons/

And what about previous versions? I remember there ability to see this in
PyPI.

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 11:21 PM, Bill Deegan 
wrote:

> All,
>
> Now you can do : pip install scons and get the latest version.
> Enjoy!
> -Bill
> Co-Manager SCons Project
>
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[Scons-dev] Multiple heads in repository

[anatoly techtonik]

Hi,

Looks like something is wrong with release process.
Bitbucket reports multiple heads in default branch.

https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/src/tip/LICENSE?at=default=file-view-default

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Re: [Scons-dev] Show source SConscript on error

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 6:07 PM, Jason Kenny  wrote:

> The node for hello.c does not exist until the Program builder function is
> called.


Is calling Node subclass constructor is the only way nodes are created? I
want to try keep track on them and make sure that every node is included.


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Re: [Scons-dev] Show source SConscript on error

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Bill Deegan 
wrote:

> Likely that means every Node would have to be annotated with the source
> file and line it came from?
> That could be quite memory intensive.
>

Make it optional? =)
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Re: [Scons-dev] Show source SConscript on error

[anatoly techtonik]

Try https://ci.appveyor.com/project/nlprocby/rhvoice/build/1.0.9

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com>
wrote:

> No permissions to view the log file..
>
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 12:32 AM, anatoly techtonik <techto...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I was looking at this build log (see also below)
>> https://ci.appveyor.com/project/YauhenMinsk/rhvoice/build/1.0.8
>> and noticed that there is no way to tell whan SConsript complains
>> about missing target. Do we have this info at all? If yes, why it is
>> not shown by default?
>>
>> ...
>> build\windows\packages\sapi\RHVoice-voice-Russian-Irina.nsi
>> <https://ci.appveyor.com/project/yauhenminsk/rhvoice/build/1.0.8#L601>scons:
>> *** [build\windows\README.txt] Source `README' not found, needed by target
>> `build\windows\README.txt'.
>> <https://ci.appveyor.com/project/yauhenminsk/rhvoice/build/1.0.8#L602>scons:
>> building terminated because of errors.
>> <https://ci.appveyor.com/project/yauhenminsk/rhvoice/build/1.0.8#L603>Command
>> exited with code 2
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
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Re: [Scons-dev] Show source SConscript on error

[anatoly techtonik]

I want SCons to show me the line in SConscript file where
this source 'README' dependency was defined.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 7:26 PM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com>
wrote:

> Anatoly,
>
> Not exactly sure what you would like SCons to do differently?
> There's a message and a non-zero exit status.
>
> -Bill
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 4:57 AM, anatoly techtonik <techto...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Try https://ci.appveyor.com/project/nlprocby/rhvoice/build/1.0.9
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> No permissions to view the log file..
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 12:32 AM, anatoly techtonik <techto...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I was looking at this build log (see also below)
>>>> https://ci.appveyor.com/project/YauhenMinsk/rhvoice/build/1.0.8
>>>> and noticed that there is no way to tell whan SConsript complains
>>>> about missing target. Do we have this info at all? If yes, why it is
>>>> not shown by default?
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>> build\windows\packages\sapi\RHVoice-voice-Russian-Irina.nsi
>>>> <https://ci.appveyor.com/project/yauhenminsk/rhvoice/build/1.0.8#L601>scons:
>>>> *** [build\windows\README.txt] Source `README' not found, needed by target
>>>> `build\windows\README.txt'.
>>>> <https://ci.appveyor.com/project/yauhenminsk/rhvoice/build/1.0.8#L602>scons:
>>>> building terminated because of errors.
>>>> <https://ci.appveyor.com/project/yauhenminsk/rhvoice/build/1.0.8#L603>Command
>>>> exited with code 2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>>
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[Scons-dev] Show source SConscript on error

[anatoly techtonik]

Hi,

I was looking at this build log (see also below)
https://ci.appveyor.com/project/YauhenMinsk/rhvoice/build/1.0.8
and noticed that there is no way to tell whan SConsript complains
about missing target. Do we have this info at all? If yes, why it is
not shown by default?

...
build\windows\packages\sapi\RHVoice-voice-Russian-Irina.nsi
scons:
*** [build\windows\README.txt] Source `README' not found, needed by target
`build\windows\README.txt'.
scons:
building terminated because of errors.
Command
exited with code 2


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Re: [Scons-dev] SCons tools refactoring progress

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 3:59 AM, Gary Oberbrunner <ga...@oberbrunner.com>
wrote:

> Comments inline.
>
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 12:52 AM, anatoly techtonik <techto...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 3:57 AM, Gary Oberbrunner <ga...@oberbrunner.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 7:52 AM, anatoly techtonik <techto...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I see the implementation, but I don't see any use cases. I know it
>>>> sounds too formal, but I can't validate the assumptions we had towards the
>>>> new toolchain without a formal list. Do you have some notes or maybe BDD
>>>> tests for that?
>>>>
>>>
>>> A very good question. I don't have enough design notes in there; I'll
>>> write up some of my motivations and design goals here and add them to the
>>> README.rst.
>>>
>>> The basic idea is that the current concept of a Tool is too low level;
>>> the primary motivating use case is that users (SConscript authors) should
>>> be able to select groups of related tools, _as_ a group, with fallbacks. A
>>> Toolchain is that abstraction.
>>>
>>
>> The use case is already good to be recorded. But there are two cases:
>> 1. Select a group of related tools
>> 2. Fallback
>> Do we have a concrete groups of related tools already?
>>
>
> Yes, I described a few. (Compiler and linker, maybe assembler is the
> obvious one.)
>

By concrete I mean "g++ binary version 4.3" + "gnulink version 4.x" + "as
v4+". The actual toolchains that would be used, for example when SCons
tries to compile Wesnoth on Ubuntu. Like how you'd dump the information
about toolchain into log file.


> The fallback story needs to be expanded. Are there fallback choices inside
>> of one group (with priority or other preference strategy) or the fallback
>> means "fallback to another group"? Maybe I am too detailed, but also - what
>> are the cases when fallbacks occur?
>>
>
> This is all implemented. Check the code and test cases
> (Toolchain-test.py). I think it's pretty solid but please review. Basically
> it's recursive AND and OR trees with optional or required elements.
>

I will try to, but I can't read Python code as well as read plain text.
Before I can look at how it works de-facto I need to get understanding of
how it should work when complete.

Also I try to look at this stuff as an end user, and by looking at the code
I might get diverted from my point by some coding details / implementation
optimizations that I don't want to deal with right now.


> It it not necessary to design everything now upfront - the primary goal of
>> my questions is to find *real world* stories (not even use cases) for which
>> new mechanism is needed. I am afraid to design a system that will be too
>> perfect for implementation in a free time.
>>
>
> Well, at least for the toolchain, I think it's mostly there
> implementation-wise (check it out). The interesting stuff is improving the
> Tool ideas (there's a sort of registry so you can give concrete tools names
> and look them up that way), adding Finders, and all the other stuff that
> we've been discussing. But if you have some real-world stories you'd like
> to see covered, this is a good time to get them out there.
>

Ok. I need a tool to create a shared library. This tool is external to
SCons. How do I install it, specify and use? Current way is:

env.Environment(tools=['someshlibtool'])
env.SomeSharedLib(source)

And I want to get help where this SomeSharedLib comes from, how I can
configure it and what are its options?


> All the rest is just there to make that idea work well. The secondary
>>> goal, in service of the main one, is that Tools need to obey their
>>> abstraction, for instance always calling exists().
>>>
>>
>> What is the story behind this? Because I know the opposite story -
>> exists() for default tools is called even if I don't build anything with
>> those tools - this delays the build start and produces messages about
>> missing compiler to the screen.
>>
>
> exists() is how a tool knows whether its binaries (or whatever it needs to
> run) exist or not, so toolchains can't work without it. As for default
> tools, the idea here is that SConscript writers will (finally!) be able to
> specify exactly which tools they want. I hope to do away with the current
> default tool initialization system, though some of that still needs to be
> thought out. The current design is much "lazier" but still needs work.
>

So what exactly should th

[Scons-dev] SystemPlatform (Was: SCons tools refactoring progress)

[anatoly techtonik]

On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 5:33 PM, Jason Kenny  wrote:

> My point here is that I think Scons would be a more robost system if for
> example we add some form of the Parts  SystemPlatform object to Scons as
> this become a common and standard way to express an important concept in a
> build system, no matter if your tool chain is platform independent for the
> target output or not.


http://parts.stage.tigris.org/source/browse/parts/trunk/parts/parts/platform_info.py?revision=150=markup

What are usage stories for that? I see the immediate one to provide
"bitness" info as:
1. Python process bitness
2. OS bitness
3. CPU bitness

What will be the serialization of PlatformInfo to JSON? Looks like it is
serialized into string now and that string has some pretty limited values.
What is the full list, by the way - is it possible to dump it?

I'd wrap it an upload as a separate project to PyPI, because this bitness
stuff is a pretty common need even for building Python extensions.
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Re: [Scons-dev] SCons tools refactoring progress

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 6:39 PM, Jason Kenny  wrote:
>
> I would hope that the concepts I talked about here are something we can
> find common ground on and talk about defining some common name for. I know
> this is a large e-mail, However I like very much some thoughts about what I
> suggest at high level to form a base of communication for use on the tool
> design.
>
I am for the opposite approach - find place in SCons for components already
present in Parts ASAP. Choose the ones that will be reused anyway. Like if
there is a code that does lookup in path on Linux, registry on Windows etc.
I would like to see a Finder module for that. Maybe even `finder` module
that is independent of SCons.

Then I'd like to have a "tool discovery debugger" that will invoke
SCons/Parts API to just do tool bootstrapping part on tool discovery and
print output to the screen.

Then I'd like to see how do we actually specify the tools. Is it the
current Environment(tools=['list', 'of', 'names']) or there are some use
cases that are not covered by this call. Maybe there are some tales that
tell that this is inconvenient.

And the thing that I feel is needed that for all these new objects -
Platform, ToolInfo etc. it to have static state that could be dumped into
JSON/YAML and restored from. For debugging, caching, for sharing settings,
whatever.
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Re: [Scons-dev] SCons tools refactoring progress

[anatoly techtonik]

On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 6:57 PM, anatoly techtonik <techto...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Bill Deegan <b...@baddogconsulting.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking that some combination of bugs in the bug tracking system +
>> wiki to capture user stories, etc would be better than an email thread?
>>
>> Here:
>> https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/wiki/browse/ToolchainRevamp
>>
>
> No BB wiki please. I don't get notifications and don't see history for it.
> Maintaining stuff in a separate repository on Github with free commmit
> policy would be an advantage personally for me.
>

Don't get me wrong - I don't mind if somebody maintains a page on BB. As
long as the page has maintainer and contains latest information, I don't
care what will be used. But tracking progress as diffs is essential.

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Re: [Scons-dev] SCons tools refactoring progress

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 3:57 AM, Gary Oberbrunner <ga...@oberbrunner.com>
wrote:
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 7:52 AM, anatoly techtonik <techto...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I see the implementation, but I don't see any use cases. I know it sounds
>> too formal, but I can't validate the assumptions we had towards the new
>> toolchain without a formal list. Do you have some notes or maybe BDD tests
>> for that?
>>
>
> A very good question. I don't have enough design notes in there; I'll
> write up some of my motivations and design goals here and add them to the
> README.rst.
>
> The basic idea is that the current concept of a Tool is too low level; the
> primary motivating use case is that users (SConscript authors) should be
> able to select groups of related tools, _as_ a group, with fallbacks. A
> Toolchain is that abstraction.
>

The use case is already good to be recorded. But there are two cases:
1. Select a group of related tools
2. Fallback
Do we have a concrete groups of related tools already?
The fallback story needs to be expanded. Are there fallback choices inside
of one group (with priority or other preference strategy) or the fallback
means "fallback to another group"? Maybe I am too detailed, but also - what
are the cases when fallbacks occur?

It it not necessary to design everything now upfront - the primary goal of
my questions is to find *real world* stories (not even use cases) for which
new mechanism is needed. I am afraid to design a system that will be too
perfect for implementation in a free time.


> All the rest is just there to make that idea work well. The secondary
> goal, in service of the main one, is that Tools need to obey their
> abstraction, for instance always calling exists().
>

What is the story behind this? Because I know the opposite story - exists()
for default tools is called even if I don't build anything with those tools
- this delays the build start and produces messages about missing compiler
to the screen.


> The new system also creates a distinction between an abstract tool, such
> as intelc, and a concrete instance of it, such as intelc v12 x86. This is
> needed so the user can create chains of either specific or general tools.
>

I understand where this might be useful, but still - is there a real world
story where this was needed?


> One restriction I'm imposing in the new system is that Tools have to be
> configurable outside of any Environment; I don't like the current system
> where tool-configuration variables ("tool args" basically) are mixed into
> the Environment. This poses some challenges for a fully generalizable
> system but I think I have a decent handle on that. The current Intel
> compiler has an initial attempt at such tool args.
>

How to handle "tools args" is a question for a separate thread. We will
need to have a standard set for every *type* of tool and specific for every
tool supported. For the maintenance that means tables, and perhaps tests
for those args. And neither unit tests, nor BB wiki are good things for
human readable tests and human writable tables.

Again, for the design it needs concrete stories. Like "I want to use intelc
v12 x86 which uses its own args on Windows". My goal with all these stories
is to dig up the cases where new more complicated system just don't worth
it and simple Environment variable hack is good.


> Some use cases:
>  * a simple SConstruct should automatically select the "best"
> compiler/linker
>

What is the best in real world projects? For example, pre-configured chain
for specific combination of OS, environment, flags, source file types? How
many criteria we may (which arguments should we) pass to
get_the_best_tool() function?

Also, I see that it will be good to make it independent of SCons codebase
for now.


>  * a non-C-related SConstruct (e.g. doc prep, asset management, scientific
> data handling) shouldn't have to care about compilers, linkers or other
> unrelated tools
>

Good. Now we need to expand what this means and record into separate story.
"When I invoke Sphinx and SCSS tool, SCons initializes compilers, linkers
and other related tools and complains about missing Visual Studio
compliler. It also takes a long time."


>  * a SConstruct author should be able to specify toolchains and
> alternatives, and handle failures gracefully
>

What is the failure? Only "tool does not exist"? Where it is needed right
now?


>  * it should be possible to write a SConstruct where the tools and
> toolchains can be manipulated by cmd line args if desired
>  * it should be possible to specify desired tools generally
> ("gcc/gnulink") or very specifically ("gcc 4.3, x86 cross compiler, with
> gnulink 4.3 - and TeXLive")
>

Re: [Scons-dev] SCons tools refactoring progress

[anatoly techtonik]

On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Vasily  wrote:

> so I wanted to see if there was something on the SCons side of things I
> can look at for inspiration.


Well, the current message about missing Visual Studio on Windows is a great
source of inspiration to me. =)

-- 
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Re: [Scons-dev] Roundup tracker demo instance...

[anatoly techtonik]

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 9:54 AM, Florian Miedniak <
florian.miedn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thought about using JIRA? It's free for open source projects and very
> intuitive to use IMO while being very flexible, if you need it. Nice
> integration with bitbucket, confluence and version control system is also
> given (automated cross-references for issues, detailed track of commits per
> issue).
>

The don't have SSO login with Google+ and Github logins and that's a major
no-go for me. I also think that it is slow, it markup is weird and adding
functionality is impossible. So don't expect to get new design or different
plugins. Also many features are hidden over paywall, such as SSO.
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Re: [Scons-dev] Roundup tracker demo instance...

[anatoly techtonik]

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 9:17 PM, William Blevins 
wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 7:10 PM, Dirk Bächle  wrote:
>
>> On 24.09.2015 20:01, William Blevins wrote:
>>
>>> I took a quick peek.  Couldn't log in with demo/demo.  I got an invalid
>>> page address error.
>>>
>>>
>> Hmm, don't know...this is new to me. It worked when I tested it from
>> "localhost", I guess that's the difference. Can't do much about it right
>> now, due to a lack of time.
>> So everybody can only "look", I'm sorry about this inconvenience.
>>
>> What advantage will this give us over tigris?  I realize it's a demo, but
>>> the example seems rather basic.
>>>
>>> Where "basic" refers to? Design? Functionality?
>
>
> I'm not terribly concerned what it looks like though I'd prefer light on
> dark (HCI friendly colors).  Functionality wise, what does round-up provide
> that tigris doesn't?
>

1. Customizable CSS
2. Customizable fields
3. Your own behavior through reactors

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Re: [Scons-dev] Roundup tracker demo instance...

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Russel Winder  wrote:

> On Sun, 2015-09-27 at 15:03 -0700, Bill Deegan wrote:
> > Maybe worth sticking in a scons bitbucket repo?
> >
> […]
>
> A DVCS repository is indeed where all code belongs :-)
>

Four years ago I''ve put those scripts at
https://bitbucket.org/techtonik/dataliberation
along with some patches theory and ideas.

Then I had to look into Roundup code and
lost my way by trying to make a personal
decentralized tracker out of it. Also, I completed
routing component for it (tests needed) so that
you can replace old links structure from other
trackers without breaking the links.


> If there is a JIRA instance we can bind to the Mercurial repository on
> BitBucket then we should go for it.  Even if in the far distant future
> Atalassian force a Mercurial → Git move on BitBucket, they will retain
> JIRA as the associated issue tracker.
>
> Having used JIRA at Codehaus for the Groovy stuff, I can attest that
> JIRA is not awful and indeed is far superior to Tigris.
>

Having used JIRA for PySide I can assure that JIRA is awful compared
to Bugzilla.


> Thus, for me, shifting the issues from Tigris to a JIRA  directly
> associated with BitBucket is a Huge Win™.


If you need perfect integration between commits, pull requests and
issues, then you need GitHub. And if we come down this route, maybe
we also need to consider some free-to-play alternatives to our build tool
as well? =)

-- 
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Re: [Scons-dev] Roundup tracker demo instance...

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:56 PM, Dirk Bächle  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> On 28.09.2015 14:42, Russel Winder wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 2015-09-27 at 15:03 -0700, Bill Deegan wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe worth sticking in a scons bitbucket repo?
>>>
>>> […]
>>
>> A DVCS repository is indeed where all code belongs :-)
>>
>>
> the basic part of the import routines is already under DVCS at the
> oh-bugimporter repo for openhatch.org (see
> https://github.com/openhatch/oh-bugimporters/blob/master/bugimporters/tigris.py
> ).
> My idea was to work on this Tigris->Roundup script some more, and then
> offer it to the Roundup community since we'll use it just once anyway. ;)
>
> However it seems that the majority is in favour of Jira, which is
> basically fine with me...


I am not the majority. We need to count. =)


> but I'll put the converter script at the bottom of my TODO stack and see
> what Florian (or someone else) comes up with.
>
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Re: [Scons-dev] Roundup tracker demo instance...

[anatoly techtonik]

On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 9:12 PM, Bill Deegan 
wrote:

> How does it compare to bugzilla?
>

Written in Python.
Extensible with Python plugins.
Shared codebase with bugs.python.org
Has REST API in the process
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Re: [Scons-dev] Roundup tracker demo instance...

[anatoly techtonik]

It looks like I am biased. =)
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Re: [Scons-dev] SCons Node ID

[anatoly techtonik]

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Dirk Bächle <tshor...@gmx.de> wrote:

> On 04.09.2015 06:16, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>
>> I have another question about SCons. If I specify target explicitly, it
>> ends up
>> as str in BUILD_TARGETS and it is impossible to traverse. How do I
>> transform it to Node if I don't know the type? I.e. how to lookup Node
>> object
>> by name?
>>
>>
> you mean you explicitly specify a target "x" on the command line, but you
> don't know whether it's a File or a Dir?
> Can you come up with a short user scenario for this? What is it that
> you're trying to accomplish?
>

The short user scenario - a person want to build wesnoth and executes
`scons`. The output says that possible targets are "wesnoth" and
"wesnothd". Because I don't have dependencies for "wesnoth", I specify
"wesnothd" which ends up as str in BUILD_TARGETS and I can not traverse it.


> I think we had this discussion some time ago when you asked about how to
> traverse the Node tree (DAG), the single Nodes are mainly addressed
> (identified) by their full path (relative path and name) relative to the
> top-level folder of the current SCons build. This is what's used while
> looking up Nodes (exists already, or not?) in the internal FS tree
> structure, such that we are able to distinguish between "vector.h" in two
> different subdirectories for example.
>
> Hope this helps you a little further.


I found a list SCons.Node.arg2nodes_lookups which contains at
least SCons.Node.Alias.AliasNameSpace() instance that lookups the name in
the list of all Alias nodes. So, the way SCons.Script.Main converts name to
Node is:

for lookup in SCons.Node.arg2nodes_lookups:
node = lookup(x, curdir=curdir)
if node is not None:
break
if node is None:
node = fs.Entry(x, directory=ltop, create=1)

-- 
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Re: [Scons-dev] 2.3.6 out. Next up merging slots branch to default for stabilization and then release

[anatoly techtonik]

On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 12:32 AM, Tim Jenness tjenn...@lsst.org wrote:

 I would like to reiterate that I’m very interested in the port of scons to
 python3 and motivated to help.


One of the ways to help is add buildbot slave for Python 3.
http://buildbot.scons.org/buildslaves
https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/wiki/InstallingBuildbotSlaves
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Re: [Scons-dev] Updated work in progress SCons.org

[anatoly techtonik]

On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 5:50 AM, Bill Deegan b...@baddogconsulting.com
wrote:

 On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 3:38 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 9:46 PM, Bill Deegan b...@baddogconsulting.com
 wrote:

 Anatoly,

 Thanks for your feedback.

 The RSS is an RSS feed of all posts/pages to the website.


 It is better to move all GitHub, Twitter and RSS button to one line,
 maybe at the bottom.


 Twitter feed on the right feels correct to me. But maybe move a lot of the
 rest to bottom or menus.
 The Twitter, Links , Social , Tags come from the page templates.


Feed is ok. I was thinking about various social icons.


 I'm not sure if I can turn off the date stamps on the pages. Likely I can.
 Or perhaps just move them to the bottom of the page where they are less
 distracting?


 Yes. I would move them to the footer. And remove Powered by
 pelican-bootstrap3 https://github.com/DandyDev/pelican-bootstrap3,
 Pelican http://docs.getpelican.com/, Bootstrap
 http://getbootstrap.com and just add this info to README. It will be
 more useful to add Edit (this page) link at the footer.


 The source for the pages is either markdown or restructured text.  Then it
 needs to be run through pelican to generate the pages.  Not sure edit this
 page really applies in this context.


Applies. Take a look at readthedocs -
https://pip.pypa.io/en/latest/installing.html - top right corner.





 The SCons Project @SConsProject comes from the twitter javascript
 widget based on the twitter account name and the name' associated with it.
 Not much we could do about that other than changing either of those on
 twitter.


 Is it possible do choose a different name?
 -The SCons Project
 +SCons Software Construction
 +Software Construction Tool
 +Software Construction


 It is the The SCons Project, or minimally SCons, none of the other are
 names of the project and so not valid for the name on the account (IMHO).


Ok. Whatever. It just looks weird. Clearly it is not a project
communicating. It is a person with access to Twitter account. So even SCons
Updates is a better name IMHO.
-- 
anatoly t.
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