Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr
??? The CB piano stuff is simple harmonies but very complicated rhythms and textural effects: the "Shetland" guitar stuff is complicated harmonies but simple rhythms. Where's the resemblance? Swing. Dave Francis Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr
Yes, after all these descriptions of the so-called Shetland guitar style, I was wondering if there was any connection with the CB piano school. They do sound similar. ??? The CB piano stuff is simple harmonies but very complicated rhythms and textural effects: the "Shetland" guitar stuff is complicated harmonies but simple rhythms. Where's the resemblance? === http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ === Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr
Yes, after all these descriptions of the so-called Shetland guitar style, I was wondering if there was any connection with the CB piano school. They do sound similar. ??? The CB piano stuff is simple harmonies but very complicated rhythms and textural effects: the "Shetland" guitar stuff is complicated harmonies but simple rhythms. Where's the resemblance? Bass runs? - Kate D. -- Kate Dunlay David Greenberg Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada http://www.total.net/~dungreen Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr
I've been reading everyone's postings here about Shetland guitar playing traditions. It does seem to parrallel American JAzz guitar evolutions. My question pertains to playing back up. Do your descriptions apply to palying backup to strathspeys? It would all depend on the type of strathspey and the tempo your melody player chooses to play it at. If you were playing the strathspey at a slower tempo, e.g. for a Scottish country dance, or going for one of the Skinner specials you might want to follow the Scottish convention and beat two in the bar. Some of these grand old 'art' strathspeys sound very nice with the kind of harmony we've been talking about. If, however, your fiddler is playing a strathspey in the Cape Breton way, i.e around 92 to 96 bpm, beating four in the bar is the way to go. Then you probably could try a different chord for every beat. It's worth listening to how the Cape Breton pianists accompany strathspeys for clues on timing and rhythms. Their bass lines are good; they generally avoid any kind of fancy harmony. Would I be right in saying that the strathspey is not widely found in the older Shetland repertoire? David Francis Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr
Dave Francis wrote: a different chord for every beat. It's worth listening to how the Cape Breton pianists accompany strathspeys for clues on timing and rhythms. Yes, after all these descriptions of the so-called Shetland guitar style, I was wondering if there was any connection with the CB piano school. They do sound similar. Is it pure coincidence? It is amusing that someone like Peerie Willie could juxtapose two totally unconnected styles as traditional fiddle and Big Band chording, and which has led to a new tradition exemplified by Hazel Wrigley. The Wrigleys are brilliant. And thanks for your other comments, Dave. Much appreciated. Rob Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr
Rob MacKillop wrote: There's a chance I will be doing my History of the Guitar in Scotland project either as a book or as a PhD. However it turns out, I have to start by confessing that I have an embarrassing ignorance of the 'unique' (I am informed) style of Shetland guitar playing in this, sorry, last century. Can anyone help me out with this? I need players names, recordings (with codes and labels if poss), and contacts for further info. Any present-day practitioners? What IS the Shetland style? Thanks in advance. Jazz! Someone will no doubt fill you in on the full story, but the present-day Shetland fiddle/guitar accompaniment style formed during the 2nd half of the 20th century with roots in the rapidly-changing chord accompaniments used by the American jazz band players of the late 20s, 30s and swing era. The key aspects are: use of a range of four-finger chords, nearly always on four adjacent strings, which can be moved up and down the neck freely. The shapes include diminished, augmented, 7th, 9th, 6th and combinations and are quite mobile; they generally avoid using open strings; the bass note in the chord is often NOT the tonic; these bass notes, when the chords are played in sequence, form a bassline very like the accordion bass of Scottish dance bands but not as cheesy, more funky. Full barre chords are also used occasionally, but the essence of the Shetland style is 'one chord change per beat' or even 'per note', so the mobile jazz-chord shapes are preferred to classical full-barre shapes. It's quite easy for a Shetland fiddler and guitarist to switch into playing Django-style gypsy swing but I don't think the guitarist would ever take over a melodic line. I may be wrong there. It's a good rythmic accompaniment style. My experience at sessions is that if you've got someone doing a Shetland-style accompaniment and they know exactly what they are doing, you keep well out. A 'traditional' accompaniment can clash badly with it, particularly if it consists of the usual three or four 1st position, full 6-string chords with alternating or downbeat bass. Because the jazz-chord sequences used are open to considerable variation, any two guitarists with Shetland style under their belts would also need to know each other's precise handling of specific tunes to play together. All this may be total nonsense but it's what I have learned from local Shetland-style guitarists and various articles and stuff on the subject. David. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr
Rob asked: There's a chance I will be doing my History of the Guitar in Scotland project either as a book or as a PhD. However it turns out, I have to start by confessing that I have an embarrassing ignorance of the 'unique' (I am informed) style of Shetland guitar playing in this, sorry, last century. Can anyone help me out with this? I need players names, recordings (with codes and labels if poss), and contacts for further info. Any present-day practitioners? What IS the Shetland style? Thanks in advance. I had a wee tilt at regional styles just recently here, so I'll take this chance to do it again. If someone says 'Shetland style' guitar, I, and lots of others, know what they mean. But you'd be hard put to say it's a Shetland thing. The character who comes to mind instantly is 'Peerie' Willie Johnston who became well known (outside Shetland) in the instrumental revival of the 70s because he accompanied the well-known fiddlers on recordings- Tom Anderson, Willie Hunter, Aly Bain. He was (is) a hell of a character- 'The North Sea Chinaman' in Jim Sutherland's tune). He holds the guitar very flat on his lap, and plays in a style that's out of 20s/30s jazz- shifting chromatic runs round the tune. He gave the impression that he had a chord for every note of the tune. Given that most 'folk' guitarists who came out of the 60s were notorious for strumming at most 3 chords behind a song/tune, this was dynamite, and he spawned a generation of great young guitarists. For a good current example, Hazel Wrigley from Orkney, living in Edinburgh, would be worth listening/talking to. Willie is still alive, but frail and doesn't play, I'm told. Hazel would know the score. So why's it not a Shetland thing? Because the same thing happened in Edinburgh, and probably other places too. In Edinburgh we had Jimmy Elliot. He was like Peerie Willie, and based his style on earlier jazz guitarists, especially Eddie Lang. Jimmy played in big bands over the 30/40s, and in later life found himself a regular in Sandy Bells bar where a folk revival was taking place (Hamish Henderson and a million others were always in there). At that time, jazz and folk seemed to go together. A session could switch between the two quite comfortably- songs and tunes. Anyway, Jimmy had the same effect on younger guys round about, and the Shetland mob would visit regularly and mighty music would result. There was a whole squad of great guitarists about then: eg Neil Munro, Davy (?), Denis Cairns (who was a mate of Dick Gaughan, and had a similar but more jazzy style)- maybe Gaughan himself? You could also speak to Jack Evans in Edinburgh about that. Jimmy also stimulated a lot of non-guitarists. He had a huge collection of music that he picked up over the years, and he would always appear in the pub and slip you something. He had a huge effect on the music- imagine what it's like as a young guy learning fiddle to wander into a local pub and have someone like that backing your attempts at a tune. I think in these days of Radio Toby, and such incredible access to stuff, it's hard to imagine the importance of local sources who acted as receivers for music from all over, then re-transmitted to the local musicians. Someone, somewhere has Jimmy's collection, so you could probably get access to that. Jimmy didn't record, except maybe on an old album of Sandy Bells' folk, which Nigel will have :) So he never became so well known abroad. He died in the 80s. Just went out like a light on the bus to Bells with his guitar under his arm. There's a wee statue of him behind the bar still. Last, this style of guitar became the basis for much of what we hear in 'celtic' music these days. Listening to it now, it's easy to think that it's come from Ireland, Donal Lunny etc., but the Irish bands didn't use guitars like this, and the bouzouki thing came from eastern Europe. What we hear now is some sort of fusion, and I think you could trace a line back through the Scottish bands of the 70s to the two heroes described above, and maybe Clapton too. :) Derek Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr
Forgot to point out that these old guys were crazy about Eddie Lang etc, who played with jazz fiddlers- Lang and Joe Venuti, Django and Grapelli. So playing with fiddlers was just the natural thing to do. They also switched to mandolin at times to do some melody stuff. And that led to the Shetland banjo style :) Derek Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr
Rob MacKillop wrote: David Kilpatrick wrote: it's what I have learned from local Shetland-style guitarists and various articles and stuff on the subject. What articles and stuff? If I may ask... Personal reminisences of those involved is clearly of great importance, but so are well thought-out articles. Don't turn the house upside down, Dave, but if you do remember over the next year or so, keep me in mind, please. I think I've seen one in an issue on 'The Living Tradition' some time in the last two years. Apart from that, it could be down to sleeve notes, or even an issue of something like 'Acoustic Guitar' - but I really doubt that, they don't care much about European traditions. Living Tradition is the best bet. David Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr
They also switched to mandolin at times to do some melody stuff. And that led to the Shetland banjo style :) Mercifully outwith my remit! Rob Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr
Thanks Derek and David. Just what I was looking for. Plenty of leads to follow up. By your descriptions I have to say that I am familiar with this style, and agree with Derek that it is not just a Shetland thing, although those guys may have been the first to record it in a folk setting. I imagine it is no more than Big Band players joining in with their folky mates, I think that's underestimating Peerie Willie and Jimmy Elliot- they were 'traditional' musicians- they had the music, tunes, all that. They were very much part of what was going on, and not just accompanying the odd fiddler. They used their jazz background to make Scottish music. They were great musicians and could modify their style to suit what was going on around them. Could someone send me privately the email address or phone number or house address of Hazel Wrigley ? Likewise, 'Peerie' Willie Johnston and Jack Evans. Done by email. Derek Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr
Rob MacKillop wrote: They also switched to mandolin at times to do some melody stuff. And that led to the Shetland banjo style :) Mercifully outwith my remit! Rob, on mp3.com recently I found an artist claiming to have tunes from 15th Scottish mandora (sic) MS rearranged for (wait for this) the scalloped fret guitar with ornaments derived from Indian sitar technique. I did listen to one such track, title like 'I met her in the the meadow' or such. Most impressive. Scalloped fret ELECTRIC guitar played in thrash mediaeval fashion and by your standards about as many ornaments as a Shaker lavatory seat. Shetland banjo is probably far more authentic! David Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr
Rob, on mp3.com recently I found an artist claiming to have tunes from 15th Scottish mandora (sic) MS rearranged for (wait for this) the scalloped fret guitar with ornaments derived from Indian sitar technique. I did listen to one such track, title like 'I met her in the the meadow' or such. Most impressive. Scalloped fret ELECTRIC guitar played in thrash mediaeval fashion and by your standards about as many ornaments as a Shaker lavatory seat. You might be surprised to find out that the Scottish 17th-century cittern had a scalloped fingerboard ! Ha! So there! Well, it was slightly scalloped, but definitely so. It also had some frets missing, and some frets only went half-way across the fingerboard, some only a third across. Of course, you all know this already, having bought my 'Flowers of the Forest' by the million. Nothing new under the sun. A curious paragraph, David. As you all know, having bought my etc, etc, the mandora should properly be called either a mandore (French) or mandour (Scots). The manuscript is the Skene (not the fiddle Skene), and it was from the 1640's, which even for slow and lazy Scots, could not be called the medieval period. Of course, you are quoting someone else. There is a lot of weird shit out there from lavatorial space cadets who don't know the difference between an ornament and a Klingon. A history of the guitar in Scotland, eh? Someone please talk me out of it before it is too late! Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.robmackillop.com Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
