Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[Stuart Eydmann]

Regarding Peerie Willie Johnson

There is an article with photos and a sound clip at:

www.shetland-music.com/mgpwilie.htm

Stuart

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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[Toby Rider]

David Francis wrote:
> 
> >???  The CB piano stuff is simple harmonies but very complicated rhythms
> >and textural effects: the "Shetland" guitar stuff is complicated harmonies
> >but simple rhythms.  Where's the resemblance?
> 
> Swing.
> 
When they either style is done poorly, ie: the Shetland jazz
accompaniment style or the CB piano style, they're hideous :-) Done
well, they're exciting. 


Toby
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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[Derek Hoy]

> ???  The CB piano stuff is simple harmonies but very complicated rhythms
> and textural effects: the "Shetland" guitar stuff is complicated harmonies
> but simple rhythms.  Where's the resemblance?

Both sound like jazz?  CB is Dr John and the Night Steppers, Shetland stuff is 
Hot Club de Jarls.

Reminds me of a song I used to sing...

"Fly me to the Lounge, and let me play among the Jarls,
Let me have a tune with Willie Hunter and his paaals..."

Derek
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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[David Francis]

>???  The CB piano stuff is simple harmonies but very complicated rhythms
>and textural effects: the "Shetland" guitar stuff is complicated harmonies
>but simple rhythms.  Where's the resemblance?
 
Swing.

Dave Francis

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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[Wendy Galovich]

Jack Campin wrote:
> 
> >Yes, after all these descriptions of the so-called Shetland guitar style, I
> >was wondering if there was any connection with the CB piano school. They do
> >sound similar.
> 
> ???  The CB piano stuff is simple harmonies but very complicated rhythms
> and textural effects: the "Shetland" guitar stuff is complicated harmonies
> but simple rhythms.  Where's the resemblance?

I was wondering about that too. I can't say I know anything about
Shetland guitar, but based on the recent discussion about its
relationship to jazz, using augmented chords, etc., it sounds quite far
removed from Cape Breton piano style. 

Wendy
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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[Kate Dunlay or David Greenberg]

>>Yes, after all these descriptions of the so-called Shetland guitar style, I
>>was wondering if there was any connection with the CB piano school. They do
>>sound similar.
>
>???  The CB piano stuff is simple harmonies but very complicated rhythms
>and textural effects: the "Shetland" guitar stuff is complicated harmonies
>but simple rhythms.  Where's the resemblance?

Bass runs?

- Kate D.

--
Kate Dunlay & David Greenberg
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
http://www.total.net/~dungreen


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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[Jack Campin]

>Yes, after all these descriptions of the so-called Shetland guitar style, I
>was wondering if there was any connection with the CB piano school. They do
>sound similar.

???  The CB piano stuff is simple harmonies but very complicated rhythms
and textural effects: the "Shetland" guitar stuff is complicated harmonies
but simple rhythms.  Where's the resemblance?


===  ===


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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[Derek Hoy]

Dave asked:
> Would I be right in saying that the strathspey is not widely found in the
> older Shetland repertoire?

That's right.

Derek
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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[Rob MacKillop]

Dave Francis wrote:

> a different chord for every beat.  It's worth listening to how the Cape
> Breton pianists accompany strathspeys for clues on timing and rhythms.

Yes, after all these descriptions of the so-called Shetland guitar style, I
was wondering if there was any connection with the CB piano school. They do
sound similar. Is it pure coincidence? It is amusing that someone like
Peerie Willie could juxtapose two totally unconnected styles as traditional
fiddle and Big Band chording, and which has led to a new tradition
exemplified by Hazel Wrigley. The Wrigleys are brilliant. And thanks for
your other comments, Dave. Much appreciated.
Rob

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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[David Francis]

>I've been reading everyone's postings here about Shetland guitar playing
>traditions. It does seem to parrallel American JAzz guitar evolutions.
>
>My question pertains to playing back up. Do your descriptions apply to
>palying backup to strathspeys?
>

It would all depend on the type of strathspey and the tempo your melody
player chooses to play it at.  If you were playing the strathspey at a
slower tempo, e.g. for a Scottish country dance, or going for one of the
Skinner specials you might want to follow the Scottish convention and beat
two in the bar.  Some of these grand old 'art' strathspeys sound very nice
with the kind of harmony we've been talking about.  If, however, your
fiddler is playing a strathspey in the Cape Breton way, i.e around 92 to 96
bpm, beating four in the bar is the way to go.  Then you probably could try
a different chord for every beat.  It's worth listening to how the Cape
Breton pianists accompany strathspeys for clues on timing and rhythms.
Their bass lines are good; they generally avoid any kind of fancy harmony.

Would I be right in saying that the strathspey is not widely found in the
older Shetland repertoire?

David Francis

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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[Jeffrey Friedman]

David,
I've been reading everyone's postings here about Shetland guitar playing
traditions. It does seem to parrallel American JAzz guitar evolutions.

My question pertains to playing back up. Do your descriptions apply to
palying backup to strathspeys?

Please excuse this potentially dumb question, if indeed it is.

Thanks.
Jeff

> The story goes that Peerie Willie first picked up the style from Joe
Venuti
> and Eddie Lang records heard on short wave radio back in the thirties.
> The percussive element is very important, so the voicings used will be
three
> and four note voicings, often with the fifth missed out (the third and the
> seventh characterise the chord), a technique refined by the great Freddie
> Green, Count Basie's guitarist.  The strings used for these voicings would
> often be 6, 4,3,2 or 5, 3,2 with the intervening string damped, and the
top
> string played only if you really wanted it.  The satirical Mr Evans once
> demonstrated 'Shetland style' guitar to a group of students by inserting a
> match book under the top four strings and playing only the bass notes,
while
> still retaining the percussive sound.


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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[David Francis]

The story goes that Peerie Willie first picked up the style from Joe Venuti
and Eddie Lang records heard on short wave radio back in the thirties.

The characteristics of the style are a four-on-floor swing feel, with strong
offbeats, a constantly moving bassline (cycle of fifths, scalar and
chromatic) and a variety of 'colours': extended chords (major and minor) and
altered chords (dominant).  The old tension and release thing is important
as well, with what seems like a vinegary chord resolving quickly to
something a bit more comfortable.  I heard Peerie Willie being interviewed
on Travelling Folk a year or two back, and he said that he had to be careful
to ration his flattened fifths when he played in a dance band with Tom
Anderson way back when.

The players don't play a different chord on every beat as such.
Accompanying a reel, for example, you generally hear the bass note on beats
one and three of the bar and the rest of the chord on the offbeats.  The
chord may well change on every downbeat.  So if you have a tune where the
basic harmony is:  G  IG  IG  ID7  IG   IG  lC D7lG  ll, this might be
transformed to G D7lG G6lG G#dimlAm7 D9lG/B Em7lBm7 Bb7lAm7 D7b9lD7 Gll .

The percussive element is very important, so the voicings used will be three
and four note voicings, often with the fifth missed out (the third and the
seventh characterise the chord), a technique refined by the great Freddie
Green, Count Basie's guitarist.  The strings used for these voicings would
often be 6, 4,3,2 or 5, 3,2 with the intervening string damped, and the top
string played only if you really wanted it.  The satirical Mr Evans once
demonstrated 'Shetland style' guitar to a group of students by inserting a
match book under the top four strings and playing only the bass notes, while
still retaining the percussive sound.

Peerie Willie's way of playing set out the road for scores of other
guitarists from Shetland, and it's still the accompaniment style of choice
up there.  Hazel Wrigley once told me that when she was very young and
learning she would sit next to PW at any opportunity, absorbing not only his
technique but his timing too.  One of his best disciples is Dave Jackson,
who I think still bides in Aiberdeen.  He can be heard to good effect, as
Stuart says, on the Curlew album.  He used to play with the Boys of the
Lough on occasion (although never on album as far as I know).  The late Tich
Richardson was also a great PW acolyte and he can be heard on several BotL
albums.
>One or more of the Shetland tune books feature photographs of guitar
>players

Tom Anderson's 'Ringing Strings' book has pictures of PW with TA in the
Islesburgh Scottish Dance Band, and also a pic of a country fiddler and a
blind guitarist, also called Johnston IIRC

>Then there's the "Hebridean Gaelic Giotar" - so many of those Gaelic
>recordings from the 60s and 70s have the same jazz/country/electric guitar
>sound - probably because its the same guy playing on them all. I just can't
>recall his name at present. I'm sure some of the early Calum Kennedy
records
>even have it.
Duncan Finlay?

>Another style is the "Jacobite Guitar" as made popular by the Corries and
>others in the 60s and 70s but now more or less gone - they could not afford
>to keep buying new strings I suppose.
What Billy Connolly used to refer to as 'battle guitar'

David Francis
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

t/f (44) 131 557 1050 (o); (44) 131 669 8824 (h)

Stoneyport Agency representing:
The Cast; Ceolbeg;
Fiddlers Bid; Keltik Elektrik; McManus, Evans, MacLeod
www.stoneyport.demon.co.uk

Bella MacNab's Dance Band
www.ceilidhdance.com



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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[Derek Hoy]

Rob said:
> A history of the guitar in Scotland, eh? Someone please talk me out of it
> before it is too late!

Don't do i.   oh- too late.

You should be able to turn this into telly if you're careful.  You've already 
got all this weird European stuff, with scalloped frets annat.  Now get an 
angle on steel guitars, bottlenecks, etc, and you'll get the transatlantic 
connection you need for telly.

You know the sort of stuff, you sitting round a Louisiana campfire swapping 
licks with some guy out the swamps with his National steel lute.
Next episode you're in some gypsy camp in Transylvania.

Derek
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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[Stuart Eydmann]

Some peerie bits and bobs:

Try the album c1981 by the band Curlew on the topic label (Davy Tulloch and
Veronique Nelson on fiddles) with Dave Jackson (of Aberdeen?) on Shetland
geetarr.

I have Tom Anderson's 1964 album on the Waverley label with Peerie Willie on
guitar. There is a great photo on the cover of the duo which I can post if
required. I've a feeling Willie's biog has been written up, perhaps by Tom
Morton the journalist, and that it goes into his early influences in some
detail. I spent a great 3 days travelling round the islands with the
'binkies playing at village concerts around 1980 with T.A. and Willie and I
wish I had taped some of Willie's stories - a great guy. There is a Shetland
music archive which should have something.

One or more of the Shetland tune books feature photographs of guitar
players.

I have a Scottish dance band record (The Park Studio Players) from around
the 1950s which features a named guitarist playing in an educated jazz style
not too many miles away from the Shetland style.

Peter Cooke's book on the Shetland fiddle and his PhD thesis (Edinburgh
University) may have some nuggets.

I seem to remember, its getting a bit hazy now, that there was a good jazz
guitarist in the band on the One O'Clock Gang show on TV all those years ago
and that he was fairly influential as a session musician and teacher around
the Glasgow area.

Then there's the "Hebridean Gaelic Giotar" - so many of those Gaelic
recordings from the 60s and 70s have the same jazz/country/electric guitar
sound - probably because its the same guy playing on them all. I just can't
recall his name at present. I'm sure some of the early Calum Kennedy records
even have it.

Another style is the "Jacobite Guitar" as made popular by the Corries and
others in the 60s and 70s but now more or less gone - they could not afford
to keep buying new strings I suppose.

I'm sure Nigel must have some gems in his collection of early records.

Hope this helps.


Stuart Eydmann


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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[Rob MacKillop]

> Rob, on mp3.com recently I found an artist claiming to have tunes from
> 15th Scottish mandora (sic) MS rearranged for (wait for this) the
> scalloped fret guitar with ornaments derived from Indian sitar
> technique. I did listen to one such track, title like 'I met her in the
> the meadow' or such. Most impressive. Scalloped fret ELECTRIC guitar
> played in thrash mediaeval fashion and by your standards about as many
> ornaments as a Shaker lavatory seat.

You might be surprised to find out that the Scottish 17th-century cittern
had a scalloped fingerboard ! Ha! So there! Well, it was slightly scalloped,
but definitely so. It also had some frets missing, and some frets only went
half-way across the fingerboard, some only a third across. Of course, you
all know this already, having bought my 'Flowers of the Forest' by the
million. Nothing new under the sun.

A curious paragraph, David. As you all know, having bought my etc, etc, the
mandora should properly be called either a mandore (French) or mandour
(Scots). The manuscript is the Skene (not the fiddle Skene), and it was from
the 1640's, which even for slow and lazy Scots, could not be called the
medieval period. Of course, you are quoting someone else. There is a lot of
weird shit out there from lavatorial space cadets who don't know the
difference between an ornament and a Klingon.

A history of the guitar in Scotland, eh? Someone please talk me out of it
before it is too late!

Rob
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.robmackillop.com


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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[David Kilpatrick]

Rob MacKillop wrote:

>> They also switched to mandolin at times to do some melody stuff. And that
>> led to the Shetland banjo style  :)
> 
> 
> Mercifully outwith my remit!

Rob, on mp3.com recently I found an artist claiming to have tunes from 
15th Scottish mandora (sic) MS rearranged for (wait for this) the 
scalloped fret guitar with ornaments derived from Indian sitar 
technique. I did listen to one such track, title like 'I met her in the 
the meadow' or such. Most impressive. Scalloped fret ELECTRIC guitar 
played in thrash mediaeval fashion and by your standards about as many 
ornaments as a Shaker lavatory seat.

Shetland banjo is probably far more authentic!

David

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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[Derek Hoy]

> Thanks Derek and David. Just what I was looking for. Plenty of leads to
> follow up. By your descriptions I have to say that I am familiar with this
> style, and agree with Derek that it is not just a Shetland thing, although
> those guys may have been the first to record it in a folk setting. I imagine
> it is no more than Big Band players joining in with their folky mates,

I think that's underestimating Peerie Willie and Jimmy Elliot- they were 
'traditional' musicians- they had the music, tunes, all that. They were very 
much part of what was going on, and not just accompanying the odd fiddler.  
They used their jazz background to make Scottish music.  They were great 
musicians and could modify their style to suit what was going on around them.

> Could someone send me privately the email address or phone number or house
> address of Hazel Wrigley ?
> 
> Likewise, 'Peerie' Willie Johnston and Jack Evans.

Done by email.

Derek
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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[Rob MacKillop]

> They also switched to mandolin at times to do some melody stuff. And that
> led to the Shetland banjo style  :)

Mercifully outwith my remit!
Rob

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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[David Kilpatrick]

Rob MacKillop wrote:

> David Kilpatrick wrote:
> 
> 
>> it's what I have learned from local
>> Shetland-style guitarists and various articles and stuff on the subject.
> 
> 
> What articles and stuff? If I may ask...
> 
> Personal reminisences of those involved is clearly of great importance, but
> so are well thought-out articles. Don't turn the house upside down, Dave,
> but if you do remember over the next year or so, keep me in mind, please.
> 
I think I've seen one in an issue on 'The Living Tradition' some time in 
the last two years. Apart from that, it could be down to sleeve notes, 
or even an issue of something like 'Acoustic Guitar' - but I really 
doubt that, they don't care much about European traditions. Living 
Tradition is the best bet.
David

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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[Rob MacKillop]

Thanks Derek and David. Just what I was looking for. Plenty of leads to
follow up. By your descriptions I have to say that I am familiar with this
style, and agree with Derek that it is not just a Shetland thing, although
those guys may have been the first to record it in a folk setting. I imagine
it is no more than Big Band players joining in with their folky mates, but
then it developed into the fine guitar style of a Hazel Wrigley. BTW, the
cittern/bazouki style can be traced right back to at least the 17th-century,
possibly even back into the medieval period with the gittern. There aint
nothin new under the sun.

Could someone send me privately the email address or phone number or house
address of Hazel Wrigley ?

Likewise, 'Peerie' Willie Johnston and Jack Evans.

Rob
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.robmackillop.com


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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[Derek Hoy]

Forgot to point out that these old guys were crazy about Eddie Lang etc, who 
played with jazz fiddlers-  Lang and Joe Venuti, Django and Grapelli.  So 
playing with fiddlers was just the natural thing to do.

They also switched to mandolin at times to do some melody stuff. And that 
led to the Shetland banjo style  :)

Derek

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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[Rob MacKillop]

David Kilpatrick wrote:

> it's what I have learned from local
> Shetland-style guitarists and various articles and stuff on the subject.

What articles and stuff? If I may ask...

Personal reminisences of those involved is clearly of great importance, but
so are well thought-out articles. Don't turn the house upside down, Dave,
but if you do remember over the next year or so, keep me in mind, please.

Rob



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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[Derek Hoy]

Rob asked:
> There's a chance I will be doing my History of the Guitar in Scotland
> project either as a book or as a PhD. However it turns out, I have to start
> by confessing that I have an embarrassing ignorance of the 'unique' (I am
> informed) style of Shetland guitar playing in this, sorry, last century. Can
> anyone help me out with this? I need players names, recordings (with codes
> and labels if poss), and contacts for further info. Any present-day
> practitioners? What IS the Shetland style? Thanks in advance.

I had a wee tilt at regional styles just recently here, so I'll take this 
chance to do it again.  If someone says 'Shetland style' guitar, I, and lots 
of others, know what they mean.  But you'd be hard put to say it's a Shetland 
thing.

The character who comes to mind instantly is 'Peerie' Willie Johnston who 
became well known (outside Shetland) in the instrumental revival of the 70s 
because he accompanied the well-known fiddlers on recordings- Tom Anderson, 
Willie Hunter, Aly Bain. He was (is) a hell of a character- 'The North Sea 
Chinaman' in Jim Sutherland's tune).  He holds the guitar very flat on his 
lap, and plays in a style that's out of 20s/30s jazz- shifting chromatic runs 
round the tune. He gave the impression that he had a chord for every note of 
the tune.
Given that most 'folk' guitarists who came out of the 60s were notorious for 
strumming at most 3 chords behind a song/tune, this was dynamite, and he 
spawned a generation of great young guitarists.
For a good current example, Hazel Wrigley from Orkney, living in Edinburgh, 
would be worth listening/talking to.
Willie is still alive, but frail and doesn't play, I'm told. Hazel would know 
the score.

So why's it not a Shetland thing?  Because the same thing happened in 
Edinburgh, and probably other places too.  In Edinburgh we had Jimmy Elliot. 
He was like Peerie Willie, and based his style on earlier jazz guitarists, 
especially Eddie Lang.  Jimmy played in big bands over the 30/40s, and in 
later life found himself a regular in Sandy Bells bar where a folk revival was 
taking place (Hamish Henderson and a million others were always in there).
At that time, jazz and folk seemed to go together.  A session could switch 
between the two quite comfortably- songs and tunes.
Anyway, Jimmy had the same effect on younger guys round about, and the 
Shetland mob would visit regularly and mighty music would result.
There was a whole squad of great guitarists about then: eg Neil Munro, Davy 
(?), Denis Cairns (who was a mate of Dick Gaughan, and had a similar but more 
jazzy style)- maybe Gaughan himself?
You could also speak to Jack Evans in Edinburgh about that.

Jimmy also stimulated a lot of non-guitarists. He had a huge collection of 
music that he picked up over the years, and he would always appear in the pub 
and slip you something. He had a huge effect on the music- imagine what it's 
like as a young guy learning fiddle to wander into a local pub and have 
someone like that backing your attempts at a tune.
I think in these days of Radio Toby, and such incredible access to stuff, it's 
hard to imagine the importance of local sources who acted as receivers for 
music from all over, then re-transmitted to the local musicians.
Someone, somewhere has Jimmy's collection, so you could probably get access to 
that.

Jimmy didn't record, except maybe on an old album of Sandy Bells' folk, which 
Nigel will have  :)  So he never became so well known abroad. He died in the 
80s.  Just went out like a light on the bus to Bells with his guitar under his 
arm. There's a wee statue of him behind the bar still.

Last, this style of guitar became the basis for much of what we hear in 
'celtic' music these days. Listening to it now, it's easy to think that it's 
come from Ireland, Donal Lunny etc., but the Irish bands didn't use guitars 
like this, and the bouzouki thing came from eastern Europe.  What we hear now 
is some sort of fusion, and I think you could trace a line back through the 
Scottish bands of the 70s to the two heroes described above, and maybe Clapton 
too.  :)

Derek
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Re: [scots-l] Shetland geetarr

[David Kilpatrick]

Rob MacKillop wrote:
> 
> There's a chance I will be doing my History of the Guitar in Scotland
> project either as a book or as a PhD. However it turns out, I have to start
> by confessing that I have an embarrassing ignorance of the 'unique' (I am
> informed) style of Shetland guitar playing in this, sorry, last century. Can
> anyone help me out with this? I need players names, recordings (with codes
> and labels if poss), and contacts for further info. Any present-day
> practitioners? What IS the Shetland style? Thanks in advance.
> 
Jazz! Someone will no doubt fill you in on the full story, but the
present-day Shetland fiddle/guitar accompaniment style formed during the
2nd half of the 20th century with roots in the rapidly-changing chord
accompaniments used by the American jazz band players of the late 20s,
30s and swing era. The key aspects are: use of a range of four-finger
chords, nearly always on four adjacent strings, which can be moved up
and down the neck freely. The shapes include diminished, augmented, 7th,
9th, 6th and combinations and are quite mobile; they generally avoid
using open strings; the bass note in the chord is often NOT the tonic;
these bass notes, when the chords are played in sequence, form a
bassline very like the accordion bass of Scottish dance bands but not as
cheesy, more funky. Full barre chords are also used occasionally, but
the essence of the Shetland style is 'one chord change per beat' or even
'per note', so the mobile jazz-chord shapes are preferred to classical
full-barre shapes.

It's quite easy for a Shetland fiddler and guitarist to switch into
playing Django-style gypsy swing but I don't think the guitarist would
ever take over a melodic line. I may be wrong there. It's a good rythmic
accompaniment style.

My experience at sessions is that if you've got someone doing a
Shetland-style accompaniment and they know exactly what they are doing,
you keep well out. A 'traditional' accompaniment can clash badly with
it, particularly if it consists of the usual three or four 1st position,
full 6-string chords with alternating or downbeat bass. Because the
jazz-chord sequences used are open to considerable variation, any two
guitarists with Shetland style under their belts would also need to know
each other's precise handling of specific tunes to play together.

All this may be total nonsense but it's what I have learned from local
Shetland-style guitarists and various articles and stuff on the subject.
 David.
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