Re: ShopTalk: rules change
This link is probably the best way to contact them http://www.usga.org/questions/contact_us/contact_us.asp Regards, Bob - Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends.
Re: ShopTalk: rules change
Their Email address is: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards, Bob - TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
Re: ShopTalk: rules change
Who do we contact??? Need website or phone number or address. Pat-On Target Golf LLC Turnersville, NJ [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Tom Wishon To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 1:55 PM Subject: RE: ShopTalk: rules change I completely echo the words that George initiated here and strongly urge you all to write to the USGA to protest this latest rule proposal to change scoreline configuration. I suspect that many of you and most all golfers do not really understand the ramifications of this rule proposal should it be enacted. Thus I would like to list some of the things that are going to create problems for all of us in the clubmaking side, whether we do it full time or part time as a passion. And the problems are not just for we in the business, but for all golfers as well who love the game. 1.. The USGA has no clear decision yet made in this proposal for what to do with all of the current models of clubheads in play and being offered now for sale. They have only talked about maybe "grandfathering" all current clubheads for some undecided period of time so these clubs could be used in play for HANDICAP purposes. But at the same time, they are saying that if this rule goes into effect, it will be a decision of EACH CLUB or each organization that controls competitions at every golf course as to whether they want to enact the rule as a condition for their local competition. That means golfers could be a situation where they can play regular golf and post scores with their current clubs, but when the club championship or even weekend sweeps are conducted, each course committee can say NO YOU CAN'T PLAY TODAY WITH THOSE CLUBS. That's BS. 2.. It has not been made that clear that the USGA's big expensive research study they conducted on the effect of scorelines on shotmaking did say that the current U grooves ONLY INCREASED SPIN WHEN USED WITH URETHANE COVERED BALLS. They do nothing different than a V groove for Surlyn covered balls. And it so happens that 75% of all balls sold in the industry today have a surlyn cover. So that means if you have golfers who feel compelled to play by ALL the rules, they'll have to change clubs for no reason whatsoever other than because the USGA included them in this fiasco of them being worried about the "bomb and gouge" style of play on the tour today. 3.. There is a much easier solution to the USGA's concern over bomb and gouge on the tours. Grow the rough longer and players will automatically learn not to hit driver everywhere. Primary rough on the tour has not changed for several decades. It was 4" as a maximum 30-40 yrs ago and it's that way today, despite the fact the average swing speed on tour is +10mph higher than it was 20-30 yrs ago. Try to hit a shot on the green from 4" rough with an 80mph iron swing speed and you can't do it very well - do it with a 90mph iron swing speed and you can. But the USGA wants to blame current U grooves for this "problem", yet they already admitted the U grooves' effect on spin only happens with urethane covered balls, which is what all the tour players use and only 25% of us regular golfers use. When this all was starting to brew, I wrote the USGA to suggest the longer rough solution. They responded and said they did not think this was best because, 1) it cost more to groom longer rough on the courses, 2) members of tour event course would be more greatly inconvenienced to have to play their course under such conditions in the weeks leading up to the tournament. Are you kidding??? Mowing the rough fewer times is more expensive than mowing it more? And as far as the members go, 98% of them can't play from even 2 or 3" rough because they don't have the swing speed and strength to hit the ball from rough of that length. Besides, every course that hosts a tour event or USGA major gets MONEY and STATUS for their "trouble." If they don't like the inconvenience, the members can vote to not host the event. We golfers and Clubmakers cannot VOTE to say no we do not think this rule is good for the game or for golfers in general because the USGA does not allow golfers to vote on the rules. So all we can do is protest, and that is precisely what we all need to do. TOM WISHON -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of GEORGE HUSON Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 10:44 AM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: ShopTalk: rules change I wish everyone would take a moment to contact the USGA on the proposed rule change on the groove design. This is one bad idea! I don't think it will change one thing with the pro's scoring. Since old clubs will be outlawed for USGA competition in Ja
Re: ShopTalk: rules change
I am of the belief that the USGA Board SHOULD be made up of half public lick players and half private club members. That way the average golfer has a say in matters. That will happen when the lake freezes over in August. ** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.
RE: ShopTalk: Rules change
I am glad to see so many of you have responded to my e-mail, I hope all of you have taken the time to also let the USGA know how you/we feel. Maybe John or Tom or both of you can get a web sign up sheet going that we can send "around the world" and EVERY time someone adds their name a copy gets sent to the USGA. We may not win, but we might crash their web site. That might get them to pull their head out of that dark spot! George Huson ByGeorge Custom Clubs Dave Tutelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Following up on Tom's reply... At 06:37 PM 3/21/2007, Tom Wishon wrote: >The USGA and many golfers too have always wanted to have one set of >rules for ALL golfers. There are certainly arguments pro and con >about that, with good points on both sides. I had the opportunity to find out the official party line from Alastair Cochran in 1998. He said that the R&A had taken a survey of its membership, and the survey said that the members wanted the rules to be the same for all golfers. The USGA and R&A have agreed to keep their rules consistent; I think that's a VERY GOOD THING. But here we have the situation that a majority of R&A members who responded to a survey at least 10 years ago are driving the USGA with this. Furthermore, I don't know: * How long before 1998 the survey was. But even 1998 was just the beginning of the spring-face debate, so the survey was taken before all the activist tinkering with the equipment rules. So I don't know if it would come out the same today. (BTW, my meeting with Cochran was hosted by Dick Helmstetter at Callaway R&D HQ, so spring faces were a major component of the discussion. You can see my writeup of the meeting at http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/SanDiego98.php?ref=clubmakeronline#Callaway ) * How many members responded, nor what cross-section of the membership, nor how overwhelming the majority was. Anyway, I'm pretty sure that is what is driving the USGA position. I doubt there is new information, just the survey that by now is at least 10 years old and probably more. >...since the PGA Tour has agreed to conduct all events under the >USGA Rules, therein lies the rub in this... Both had their own >rules, both in essence competed to be the ruling body of the game >until for whatever reason the USGA "won out". I believe this is the fallout from the PGA Tour's ill-advised war with Karsten Solheim -- over SQUARE GROOVES, of all things. Ping sued the Tour, and would have won except that the Tour entered into a settlement. One of the points of that settlement was that the Tour would defer to the USGA in the matter of rules, wherever the USGA had rule-making authority. (Those curious about the background can read my -- admittedly biased -- account at http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/squaregroove.php?ref=clubmakeronline ) >Right now, the 15 people who make the rules have their heads up >where the sun don't shine on some of these things. I agree with that assessment 100%. If the USGA wanted to resolve the matter equitably, they have a couple of options: (1) Recognize that the problem is the Tour -- nobody else, really -- and tell them to solve it with grass height, as suggested already in this forum. (2) If they MUST do it by re-ruling the grooves, make a "model local rule" for V-grooves. It would not be a Rule Of Golf, but the organizers of any given tournament (e.g.- the PGA Tour) can adopt it as a local rule. They already have a lot of model local rules; they are called Appendix I. The only equipment rule I recall there is the One Ball Rule -- which the PGA Tour enforces and almost nobody else does. I don't think #2 is a very good solution, but it is infinitely better than what they propose. Cheers! DaveT -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.15/728 - Release Date: 3/20/2007 8:07 AM
RE: ShopTalk: Rules change
Following up on Tom's reply... At 06:37 PM 3/21/2007, Tom Wishon wrote: The USGA and many golfers too have always wanted to have one set of rules for ALL golfers. There are certainly arguments pro and con about that, with good points on both sides. I had the opportunity to find out the official party line from Alastair Cochran in 1998. He said that the R&A had taken a survey of its membership, and the survey said that the members wanted the rules to be the same for all golfers. The USGA and R&A have agreed to keep their rules consistent; I think that's a VERY GOOD THING. But here we have the situation that a majority of R&A members who responded to a survey at least 10 years ago are driving the USGA with this. Furthermore, I don't know: * How long before 1998 the survey was. But even 1998 was just the beginning of the spring-face debate, so the survey was taken before all the activist tinkering with the equipment rules. So I don't know if it would come out the same today. (BTW, my meeting with Cochran was hosted by Dick Helmstetter at Callaway R&D HQ, so spring faces were a major component of the discussion. You can see my writeup of the meeting at http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/SanDiego98.php?ref=clubmakeronline#Callaway ) * How many members responded, nor what cross-section of the membership, nor how overwhelming the majority was. Anyway, I'm pretty sure that is what is driving the USGA position. I doubt there is new information, just the survey that by now is at least 10 years old and probably more. ...since the PGA Tour has agreed to conduct all events under the USGA Rules, therein lies the rub in this... Both had their own rules, both in essence competed to be the ruling body of the game until for whatever reason the USGA "won out". I believe this is the fallout from the PGA Tour's ill-advised war with Karsten Solheim -- over SQUARE GROOVES, of all things. Ping sued the Tour, and would have won except that the Tour entered into a settlement. One of the points of that settlement was that the Tour would defer to the USGA in the matter of rules, wherever the USGA had rule-making authority. (Those curious about the background can read my -- admittedly biased -- account at http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/squaregroove.php?ref=clubmakeronline ) Right now, the 15 people who make the rules have their heads up where the sun don't shine on some of these things. I agree with that assessment 100%. If the USGA wanted to resolve the matter equitably, they have a couple of options: (1) Recognize that the problem is the Tour -- nobody else, really -- and tell them to solve it with grass height, as suggested already in this forum. (2) If they MUST do it by re-ruling the grooves, make a "model local rule" for V-grooves. It would not be a Rule Of Golf, but the organizers of any given tournament (e.g.- the PGA Tour) can adopt it as a local rule. They already have a lot of model local rules; they are called Appendix I. The only equipment rule I recall there is the One Ball Rule -- which the PGA Tour enforces and almost nobody else does. I don't think #2 is a very good solution, but it is infinitely better than what they propose. Cheers! DaveT -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.15/728 - Release Date: 3/20/2007 8:07 AM
Re: ShopTalk: rules change
George, I agree with you 100%, I think it's about time that a whole new Org Is formed just to address our concerns.Although I no longer play nor build clubs for other players I feel that the USGA has for years overstepped their boundries. RK ---Original Message--- From: GEORGE HUSON Date: 03/21/07 1:02:46 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: ShopTalk: rules change I wish everyone would take a moment to contact the USGA on the proposed rule change on the groove design. This is one bad idea! I don't think it will change one thing with the pro's scoring. Since old clubs will be outlawed for USGA competition in Jan 2009, what are we supposed to sell next year? I highly doubt that our suppliers will have "legal" heads out next year. Does the USGA really believe that customers will want to buy clubs next year that will be non-conforming in 2009? What are they going to do, list every club made for the last 10 years as non-conforming on their web site Jan. 1, 2009. The really bad part of this is most of the experts think it will not change the average score on tour, which is what the rule is for. I hope all the major companies get together and sue the crap out of them. I know if I just paid $1,000.00 for a set of irons that are not legal in less then 2 years, I would want my money back. George Huson ByGeorge Custom Clubs <> imstp_chubbi_en_by_im.gif Description: GIF image
RE: ShopTalk: Rules change
Paul: The USGA and many golfers too have always wanted to have one set of rules for ALL golfers. There are certainly arguments pro and con about that, with good points on both sides. One of the interesting things about this is that when it comes to the tour players, there is only ONE tournament in which some of them play which is all USGA - the US Open. All of the other pro events are conducted under the PGA Tour's direction. But since the PGA Tour has agreed to conduct all events under the USGA Rules, therein lies the rub in this. Although it is very interesting that anytime there is controversy over the rules like this, the PGA Tour never makes a statement or says anything at all. Personally, I think the PGA Tour should make their own rules for their own tournaments. Then let each golf course/club decide if they want to conduct their competitions under the USGA's or the PGA's rules. Many years ago in this country, there was the USGA and the Western Golf Assn. Both had their own rules, both in essence competed to be the ruling body of the game until for whatever reason the USGA "won out". So having rules made up by the PGA Tour, created by people who really ARE in the game instead of the 15 members of the USGA Executive Cmte, might make things more realistic and better for all. Who knows tho. Right now, the 15 people who make the rules have their heads up where the sun don't shine on some of these things. TOM -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Doxey, Paul N Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 4:14 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Rules change Everyone has brought up great points. The question I would like to raise is this: if it is the pros that need to be reeled in, why is it not the PGA and other professional golf organizations that would make and enforce this rule on the pros alone? Why does the USGA have to make rulings specific to such a small group and force it on the majority of us that don't have the ability of the pros in the first place? Of course, I am speaking for myself! Or, why doesn't the USGA create pro specific rules? They play a special game, they should have special rules. It is getting like NASCAR with all of the rules to slow things down. I agree with Bob that the pro venues should grow their rough. After all, it is only a matter of 50 or so courses and a duration of at most a month of one to two inches higher rough. If it gets a little dry, it will be even harder to hit out of. Paul Doxey Enterprise CPE 1201 E. Arapaho Rd. Plano, TX 75081 972-728-2301 lab: 972-728-2361 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ShopTalk: Rules change
Everyone has brought up great points. The question I would like to raise is this: if it is the pros that need to be reeled in, why is it not the PGA and other professional golf organizations that would make and enforce this rule on the pros alone? Why does the USGA have to make rulings specific to such a small group and force it on the majority of us that don't have the ability of the pros in the first place? Of course, I am speaking for myself! Or, why doesn't the USGA create pro specific rules? They play a special game, they should have special rules. It is getting like NASCAR with all of the rules to slow things down. I agree with Bob that the pro venues should grow their rough. After all, it is only a matter of 50 or so courses and a duration of at most a month of one to two inches higher rough. If it gets a little dry, it will be even harder to hit out of. Paul Doxey Enterprise CPE 1201 E. Arapaho Rd. Plano, TX 75081 972-728-2301 lab: 972-728-2361 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ShopTalk: Rules change
I agree it is a stupid, and costly way to go.What will it accomplish?? Case in point: No one spins the ball as much out of the rough than Padraig Harrington, and Fred Funk hardly spins it at all !! If you change the groves what will happen, Padraig will still spin the ball, maybe a little less than before, and so will Fred F.also spin it less than before. Padraig & Fred's spin will be reduced by a similar amount!! So lets face it what have you accomplished?? 1.Maybe raise the Pro's scoring average a little bit. 2.Cost the average golfer tons of money to conform to senseless dictates. 3.Cost Club Manufactures Hundreds of thousands, to make new conforming tooling, which will be passed on to the end user. Raising the rough at all Professional tournament venues to 5" instead of the 4" which has been the norm for decades, would possibly achieve the same result, with cost increases only to the Golf Courses involved in Professional tournaments. Regards, Bob - Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
RE: ShopTalk: rules change
nt or > USGA major gets MONEY > and STATUS for their "trouble." If they don't like > the inconvenience, > the members can vote to not host the event. > > > > We golfers and Clubmakers cannot VOTE to say no we > do not think this > rule is good for the game or for golfers in general > because the USGA > does not allow golfers to vote on the rules. So all > we can do is > protest, and that is precisely what we all need to > do. > > > > TOM WISHON > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of GEORGE HUSON > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 10:44 AM > To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com > Subject: ShopTalk: rules change > > > > I wish everyone would take a moment to contact the > USGA on the proposed > rule change on the groove design. This is one bad > idea! I don't think > it will change one thing with the pro's scoring. > Since old clubs will be > outlawed for USGA competition in Jan 2009, what are > we supposed to sell > next year? I highly doubt that our suppliers will > have "legal" heads out > next year. Does the USGA really believe that > customers will want to buy > clubs next year that will be non-conforming in 2009? > What are they > going to do, list every club made for the last 10 > years as > non-conforming on their web site Jan. 1, 2009. > > > > The really bad part of this is most of the experts > think it will not > change the average score on tour, which is what the > rule is for. I hope > all the major companies get together and sue the > crap out of them. I > know if I just paid $1,000.00 for a set of irons > that are not legal in > less then 2 years, I would want my money back. > > > > George Huson > > ByGeorge Custom Clubs > > The Club Doctor PCS Certified Class "A" Golf Equipment Professional 260-837-CLUB www.the-club-doctor.com Prescribing relief for your equipment pains.®
RE: ShopTalk: rules change
I completely echo the words that George initiated here and strongly urge you all to write to the USGA to protest this latest rule proposal to change scoreline configuration. I suspect that many of you and most all golfers do not really understand the ramifications of this rule proposal should it be enacted. Thus I would like to list some of the things that are going to create problems for all of us in the clubmaking side, whether we do it full time or part time as a passion. And the problems are not just for we in the business, but for all golfers as well who love the game. 1. The USGA has no clear decision yet made in this proposal for what to do with all of the current models of clubheads in play and being offered now for sale. They have only talked about maybe "grandfathering" all current clubheads for some undecided period of time so these clubs could be used in play for HANDICAP purposes. But at the same time, they are saying that if this rule goes into effect, it will be a decision of EACH CLUB or each organization that controls competitions at every golf course as to whether they want to enact the rule as a condition for their local competition. That means golfers could be a situation where they can play regular golf and post scores with their current clubs, but when the club championship or even weekend sweeps are conducted, each course committee can say NO YOU CAN'T PLAY TODAY WITH THOSE CLUBS. That's BS. 2. It has not been made that clear that the USGA's big expensive research study they conducted on the effect of scorelines on shotmaking did say that the current U grooves ONLY INCREASED SPIN WHEN USED WITH URETHANE COVERED BALLS. They do nothing different than a V groove for Surlyn covered balls. And it so happens that 75% of all balls sold in the industry today have a surlyn cover. So that means if you have golfers who feel compelled to play by ALL the rules, they'll have to change clubs for no reason whatsoever other than because the USGA included them in this fiasco of them being worried about the "bomb and gouge" style of play on the tour today. 3. There is a much easier solution to the USGA's concern over bomb and gouge on the tours. Grow the rough longer and players will automatically learn not to hit driver everywhere. Primary rough on the tour has not changed for several decades. It was 4" as a maximum 30-40 yrs ago and it's that way today, despite the fact the average swing speed on tour is +10mph higher than it was 20-30 yrs ago. Try to hit a shot on the green from 4" rough with an 80mph iron swing speed and you can't do it very well - do it with a 90mph iron swing speed and you can. But the USGA wants to blame current U grooves for this "problem", yet they already admitted the U grooves' effect on spin only happens with urethane covered balls, which is what all the tour players use and only 25% of us regular golfers use. When this all was starting to brew, I wrote the USGA to suggest the longer rough solution. They responded and said they did not think this was best because, 1) it cost more to groom longer rough on the courses, 2) members of tour event course would be more greatly inconvenienced to have to play their course under such conditions in the weeks leading up to the tournament. Are you kidding??? Mowing the rough fewer times is more expensive than mowing it more? And as far as the members go, 98% of them can't play from even 2 or 3" rough because they don't have the swing speed and strength to hit the ball from rough of that length. Besides, every course that hosts a tour event or USGA major gets MONEY and STATUS for their "trouble." If they don't like the inconvenience, the members can vote to not host the event. We golfers and Clubmakers cannot VOTE to say no we do not think this rule is good for the game or for golfers in general because the USGA does not allow golfers to vote on the rules. So all we can do is protest, and that is precisely what we all need to do. TOM WISHON -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of GEORGE HUSON Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 10:44 AM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: ShopTalk: rules change I wish everyone would take a moment to contact the USGA on the proposed rule change on the groove design. This is one bad idea! I don't think it will change one thing with the pro's scoring. Since old clubs will be outlawed for USGA competition in Jan 2009, what are we supposed to sell next year? I highly doubt that our suppliers will have "legal" heads out next year. Does the USGA really believe that customers will want to buy clubs next year that will be non-conforming in 2009? What are they going to do, list every club made for the last 10 years as non-conforming on their web si
RE: ShopTalk: rules change
Most likely the USGA will be sued and/or all clubs produced prior to 2009 will be legal until some further date, just like what was done when the 0.830 COR rule was put into effect. Tedd From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of GEORGE HUSON Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 12:44 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: ShopTalk: rules change I wish everyone would take a moment to contact the USGA on the proposed rule change on the groove design. This is one bad idea! I don't think it will change one thing with the pro's scoring. Since old clubs will be outlawed for USGA competition in Jan 2009, what are we supposed to sell next year? I highly doubt that our suppliers will have "legal" heads out next year. Does the USGA really believe that customers will want to buy clubs next year that will be non-conforming in 2009? What are they going to do, list every club made for the last 10 years as non-conforming on their web site Jan. 1, 2009. The really bad part of this is most of the experts think it will not change the average score on tour, which is what the rule is for. I hope all the major companies get together and sue the crap out of them. I know if I just paid $1,000.00 for a set of irons that are not legal in less then 2 years, I would want my money back. George Huson ByGeorge Custom Clubs
ShopTalk: rules change
I wish everyone would take a moment to contact the USGA on the proposed rule change on the groove design. This is one bad idea! I don't think it will change one thing with the pro's scoring. Since old clubs will be outlawed for USGA competition in Jan 2009, what are we supposed to sell next year? I highly doubt that our suppliers will have "legal" heads out next year. Does the USGA really believe that customers will want to buy clubs next year that will be non-conforming in 2009? What are they going to do, list every club made for the last 10 years as non-conforming on their web site Jan. 1, 2009. The really bad part of this is most of the experts think it will not change the average score on tour, which is what the rule is for. I hope all the major companies get together and sue the crap out of them. I know if I just paid $1,000.00 for a set of irons that are not legal in less then 2 years, I would want my money back. George Huson ByGeorge Custom Clubs
