Re: [sig-policy] Policy Regarding Transfers of Legacy Space

[Owen DeLong]

Legacy should be different. 

Owen


> On Feb 25, 2014, at 14:07, Skeeve Stevens  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I've been contacted by a holder of some small (not relevant) legacy space who 
> was inquiring about selling it.
> 
> But, they are not an APNIC member (or a Non-Member).
> 
> Referring to: 
> http://www.apnic.net/publications/media-library/documents/membership/non-member-fees#Historical
>  under 1.4, it talks about receiving transfers, but not making transfers.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> ...Skeeve
> 
> Skeeve Stevens - eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
> ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; linkedin.com/in/skeeve
> twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
> 
> The Experts Who The Experts Call
> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
> *  sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy   
> *
> ___
> sig-policy mailing list
> sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
> http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
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___
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Re: [sig-policy] Policy Regarding Transfers of Legacy Space

[Skeeve Stevens]

Helpful Owen ;-)

I agree... the question was... Is there actually any policy surrounding
people who aren't members holding Legacy or Non-Members?


...Skeeve

*Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com

Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve

facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  
linkedin.com/in/skeeve

twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com


The Experts Who The Experts Call
Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:18 AM, Owen DeLong  wrote:

> Legacy should be different.
>
> Owen
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2014, at 14:07, Skeeve Stevens 
> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've been contacted by a holder of some small (not relevant) legacy space
> who was inquiring about selling it.
>
> But, they are not an APNIC member (or a Non-Member).
>
> Referring to:
> http://www.apnic.net/publications/media-library/documents/membership/non-member-fees#Historical
>  under
> 1.4, it talks about receiving transfers, but not making transfers.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> ...Skeeve
>
> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
> ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>
> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  
> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>
> twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
>
>
>  The Experts Who The Experts Call
> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
>
> *  sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy
>   *
> ___
> sig-policy mailing list
> sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
> http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
>
>
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Re: [sig-policy] Policy Regarding Transfers of Legacy Space

[Dean Pemberton]

I believe this situation was covered in the ip leasing bof yesterday.

On Wednesday, February 26, 2014, Skeeve Stevens <
ske...@eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:

> Helpful Owen ;-)
>
> I agree... the question was... Is there actually any policy surrounding
> people who aren't members holding Legacy or Non-Members?
>
>
> ...Skeeve
>
> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
> ske...@eintellegonetworks.com
>  ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>
> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  
> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>
> twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
>
>
> The Experts Who The Experts Call
> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:18 AM, Owen DeLong 
> 
> > wrote:
>
>> Legacy should be different.
>>
>> Owen
>>
>>
>> On Feb 25, 2014, at 14:07, Skeeve Stevens 
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I've been contacted by a holder of some small (not relevant) legacy space
>> who was inquiring about selling it.
>>
>> But, they are not an APNIC member (or a Non-Member).
>>
>> Referring to:
>> http://www.apnic.net/publications/media-library/documents/membership/non-member-fees#Historical
>>  under
>> 1.4, it talks about receiving transfers, but not making transfers.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> ...Skeeve
>>
>> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>> ske...@eintellegonetworks.com
>>  ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>>
>> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>>
>> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  
>> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>>
>> twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
>>
>>
>>  The Experts Who The Experts Call
>> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
>>
>> *  sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy
>>   *
>> ___
>> sig-policy mailing list
>> sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
>> http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
>>
>>
>

-- 
--
Dean Pemberton

Technical Policy Advisor
InternetNZ
+64 21 920 363 (mob)
d...@internetnz.net.nz

To promote the Internet's benefits and uses, and protect its potential.
*  sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy   *
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Re: [sig-policy] Policy Regarding Transfers of Legacy Space

[Skeeve Stevens]

:(   I got timezones mixed up.


...Skeeve

*Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com

Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve

facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  
linkedin.com/in/skeeve

twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com


The Experts Who The Experts Call
Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Dean Pemberton wrote:

> I believe this situation was covered in the ip leasing bof yesterday.
>
> On Wednesday, February 26, 2014, Skeeve Stevens <
> ske...@eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:
>
>> Helpful Owen ;-)
>>
>> I agree... the question was... Is there actually any policy surrounding
>> people who aren't members holding Legacy or Non-Members?
>>
>>
>> ...Skeeve
>>
>> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>> ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>>
>> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>>
>> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  
>> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>>
>> twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
>>
>>
>> The Experts Who The Experts Call
>> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:18 AM, Owen DeLong  wrote:
>>
>>> Legacy should be different.
>>>
>>> Owen
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2014, at 14:07, Skeeve Stevens 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I've been contacted by a holder of some small (not relevant) legacy
>>> space who was inquiring about selling it.
>>>
>>> But, they are not an APNIC member (or a Non-Member).
>>>
>>> Referring to:
>>> http://www.apnic.net/publications/media-library/documents/membership/non-member-fees#Historical
>>>  under
>>> 1.4, it talks about receiving transfers, but not making transfers.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>>
>>> ...Skeeve
>>>
>>> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>>> ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>>>
>>> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>>>
>>> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  
>>> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>>>
>>> twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
>>>
>>>
>>>  The Experts Who The Experts Call
>>> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
>>>
>>> *  sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy
>>>   *
>>> ___
>>> sig-policy mailing list
>>> sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
>>> http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> --
> --
> Dean Pemberton
>
> Technical Policy Advisor
> InternetNZ
> +64 21 920 363 (mob)
> d...@internetnz.net.nz
>
> To promote the Internet's benefits and uses, and protect its potential.
>
*  sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy   *
___
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Re: [sig-policy] Policy Regarding Transfers of Legacy Space

[Owen DeLong]

Argh.  Cell phone autocorrected me into the opposite of my intent. 


Legacy should be NO different. Requirements for legacy should be identical. 

The problem with allowing non-contracted parties to be the source of a transfer 
becomes one of how you verify or authenticate said party and what your recourse 
is in the event of fraud. 

What if person Q pretends to be authorized to sell block X which is legacy to 
organization Z, but it later turns out that organization Z doesn't know Q and 
there's no contract between anyone except APNIC and the transfer recipient R?

Does R sue Q? X? Z? APNIC? Or all of the above? What happens to R? What happens 
to Z? What happens to the registry records when this comes to light?

Owen


> On Feb 25, 2014, at 14:18, Owen DeLong  wrote:
> 
> Legacy should be different. 
> 
> Owen
> 
> 
>> On Feb 25, 2014, at 14:07, Skeeve Stevens  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> I've been contacted by a holder of some small (not relevant) legacy space 
>> who was inquiring about selling it.
>> 
>> But, they are not an APNIC member (or a Non-Member).
>> 
>> Referring to: 
>> http://www.apnic.net/publications/media-library/documents/membership/non-member-fees#Historical
>>  under 1.4, it talks about receiving transfers, but not making transfers.
>> 
>> Any thoughts?
>> 
>> ...Skeeve
>> 
>> Skeeve Stevens - eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>> ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>> twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
>> 
>> The Experts Who The Experts Call
>> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
>> *  sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy  
>>  *
>> ___
>> sig-policy mailing list
>> sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
>> http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
> *  sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy   
> *
> ___
> sig-policy mailing list
> sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
> http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
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___
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Re: [sig-policy] Policy Regarding Transfers of Legacy Space

[Skeeve Stevens]

Good questions Owen.


...Skeeve

*Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com

Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve

facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  
linkedin.com/in/skeeve

twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com


The Experts Who The Experts Call
Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Owen DeLong  wrote:

> Argh.  Cell phone autocorrected me into the opposite of my intent.
>
>
> Legacy should be NO different. Requirements for legacy should be
> identical.
>
> The problem with allowing non-contracted parties to be the source of a
> transfer becomes one of how you verify or authenticate said party and what
> your recourse is in the event of fraud.
>
> What if person Q pretends to be authorized to sell block X which is legacy
> to organization Z, but it later turns out that organization Z doesn't know
> Q and there's no contract between anyone except APNIC and the transfer
> recipient R?
>
> Does R sue Q? X? Z? APNIC? Or all of the above? What happens to R? What
> happens to Z? What happens to the registry records when this comes to light?
>
> Owen
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2014, at 14:18, Owen DeLong  wrote:
>
> Legacy should be different.
>
> Owen
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2014, at 14:07, Skeeve Stevens 
> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've been contacted by a holder of some small (not relevant) legacy space
> who was inquiring about selling it.
>
> But, they are not an APNIC member (or a Non-Member).
>
> Referring to:
> http://www.apnic.net/publications/media-library/documents/membership/non-member-fees#Historical
>  under
> 1.4, it talks about receiving transfers, but not making transfers.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> ...Skeeve
>
> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
> ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>
> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  
> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>
> twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
>
>
>  The Experts Who The Experts Call
> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
>
> *  sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy
>   *
> ___
> sig-policy mailing list
> sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
> http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
>
> *  sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy
>   *
> ___
> sig-policy mailing list
> sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
> http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
>
>
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Re: [sig-policy] Policy Regarding Transfers of Legacy Space

[Mike Burns]

Hi,

We have brokered a transfer of legacy space from the APNIC region to a buyer in 
the APNIC region.
As part of the process, the seller was allowed to pay a partial fee to 
temporarily attain member status.
I think it was processed under APNIC policy for the transfer of historical 
resources.
http://www.apnic.net/publications/media-library/documents/resource-guidelines/historical-transfer

However they did it, APNIC did vet the seller as the owner of the address 
rights before the transfer was completed, as mentioned in step 2 on the page 
above.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Mike Burns
IPTrading.com

  - Original Message - 
  From: Skeeve Stevens 
  To: Owen DeLong 
  Cc: apnic-t...@apnic.net ; sig-pol...@apnic.net SIG List 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 8:12 PM
  Subject: Re: [sig-policy] Policy Regarding Transfers of Legacy Space


  Good questions Owen.




  ...Skeeve


  Skeeve Stevens - eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
  ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
  Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve

  facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; linkedin.com/in/skeeve

  twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com





  The Experts Who The Experts Call
  Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering



  On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Owen DeLong  wrote:

Argh.  Cell phone autocorrected me into the opposite of my intent. 




Legacy should be NO different. Requirements for legacy should be identical. 


The problem with allowing non-contracted parties to be the source of a 
transfer becomes one of how you verify or authenticate said party and what your 
recourse is in the event of fraud. 


What if person Q pretends to be authorized to sell block X which is legacy 
to organization Z, but it later turns out that organization Z doesn't know Q 
and there's no contract between anyone except APNIC and the transfer recipient 
R?


Does R sue Q? X? Z? APNIC? Or all of the above? What happens to R? What 
happens to Z? What happens to the registry records when this comes to light?


Owen



On Feb 25, 2014, at 14:18, Owen DeLong  wrote:


  Legacy should be different. 


  Owen



  On Feb 25, 2014, at 14:07, Skeeve Stevens  
wrote:


Hi All,


I've been contacted by a holder of some small (not relevant) legacy 
space who was inquiring about selling it.


But, they are not an APNIC member (or a Non-Member).


Referring to: 
http://www.apnic.net/publications/media-library/documents/membership/non-member-fees#Historical
 under 1.4, it talks about receiving transfers, but not making transfers.


Any thoughts?



...Skeeve


Skeeve Stevens - eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve

facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; linkedin.com/in/skeeve

twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com





The Experts Who The Experts Call
Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
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  *
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*
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Re: [sig-policy] Policy Regarding Transfers of Legacy Space

[Skeeve Stevens]

Thanks Mike... very useful and just what I was looking for.


...Skeeve

*Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com

Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve

facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>
linkedin.com/in/skeeve

twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com


The Experts Who The Experts Call
Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Mike Burns  wrote:

>  Hi,
>
> We have brokered a transfer of legacy space from the APNIC region to a
> buyer in the APNIC region.
> As part of the process, the seller was allowed to pay a partial fee to
> temporarily attain member status.
> I think it was processed under APNIC policy for the transfer of historical
> resources.
>
> http://www.apnic.net/publications/media-library/documents/resource-guidelines/historical-transfer
>
> However they did it, APNIC did vet the seller as the owner of the address
> rights before the transfer was completed.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Regards,
> Mike Burns
> IPTrading.com
>
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Owen DeLong 
> *To:* Skeeve Stevens 
> *Cc:* apnic-t...@apnic.net ; sig-pol...@apnic.net SIG List
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 25, 2014 8:03 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [sig-policy] Policy Regarding Transfers of Legacy Space
>
> Argh.  Cell phone autocorrected me into the opposite of my intent.
>
>
> Legacy should be NO different. Requirements for legacy should be
> identical.
>
> The problem with allowing non-contracted parties to be the source of a
> transfer becomes one of how you verify or authenticate said party and what
> your recourse is in the event of fraud.
>
> What if person Q pretends to be authorized to sell block X which is legacy
> to organization Z, but it later turns out that organization Z doesn't know
> Q and there's no contract between anyone except APNIC and the transfer
> recipient R?
>
> Does R sue Q? X? Z? APNIC? Or all of the above? What happens to R? What
> happens to Z? What happens to the registry records when this comes to light?
>
> Owen
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2014, at 14:18, Owen DeLong  wrote:
>
>  Legacy should be different.
>
> Owen
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2014, at 14:07, Skeeve Stevens 
> wrote:
>
>  Hi All,
>
> I've been contacted by a holder of some small (not relevant) legacy space
> who was inquiring about selling it.
>
> But, they are not an APNIC member (or a Non-Member).
>
> Referring to:
> http://www.apnic.net/publications/media-library/documents/membership/non-member-fees#Historical
>  under
> 1.4, it talks about receiving transfers, but not making transfers.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> ...Skeeve
>
>  *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>  ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>
> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>
> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>
> twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
>
>
> The Experts Who The Experts Call
> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
>
>  *  sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy
>   *
> ___
> sig-policy mailing list
> sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
> http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
>
>  *  sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy
>   *
> ___
> sig-policy mailing list
> sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
> http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
>
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>
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> policy   *
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [sig-policy] Policy Regarding Transfers of Legacy Space

[Owen DeLong]

Yes… The seller, as you stated, became a member. I’m fine with that.

The proposal talks about sellers not needing to become members and not 
developing any contractual relationship with APNIC… That is where the issues 
arise.

Owen

On Feb 25, 2014, at 5:47 PM, Mike Burns  wrote:

> Hi,
>  
> We have brokered a transfer of legacy space from the APNIC region to a buyer 
> in the APNIC region.
> As part of the process, the seller was allowed to pay a partial fee to 
> temporarily attain member status.
> I think it was processed under APNIC policy for the transfer of historical 
> resources.
> http://www.apnic.net/publications/media-library/documents/resource-guidelines/historical-transfer
>  
> However they did it, APNIC did vet the seller as the owner of the address 
> rights before the transfer was completed.
>  
> Hope this helps.
>  
> Regards,
> Mike Burns
> IPTrading.com
>  
> - Original Message -
> From: Owen DeLong
> To: Skeeve Stevens
> Cc: apnic-t...@apnic.net ; sig-pol...@apnic.net SIG List
> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 8:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [sig-policy] Policy Regarding Transfers of Legacy Space
> 
> Argh.  Cell phone autocorrected me into the opposite of my intent. 
> 
> 
> Legacy should be NO different. Requirements for legacy should be identical. 
> 
> The problem with allowing non-contracted parties to be the source of a 
> transfer becomes one of how you verify or authenticate said party and what 
> your recourse is in the event of fraud. 
> 
> What if person Q pretends to be authorized to sell block X which is legacy to 
> organization Z, but it later turns out that organization Z doesn't know Q and 
> there's no contract between anyone except APNIC and the transfer recipient R?
> 
> Does R sue Q? X? Z? APNIC? Or all of the above? What happens to R? What 
> happens to Z? What happens to the registry records when this comes to light?
> 
> Owen
> 
> 
> On Feb 25, 2014, at 14:18, Owen DeLong  wrote:
> 
>> Legacy should be different. 
>> 
>> Owen
>> 
>> 
>> On Feb 25, 2014, at 14:07, Skeeve Stevens  
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi All,
>>> 
>>> I've been contacted by a holder of some small (not relevant) legacy space 
>>> who was inquiring about selling it.
>>> 
>>> But, they are not an APNIC member (or a Non-Member).
>>> 
>>> Referring to: 
>>> http://www.apnic.net/publications/media-library/documents/membership/non-member-fees#Historical
>>>  under 1.4, it talks about receiving transfers, but not making transfers.
>>> 
>>> Any thoughts?
>>> 
>>> ...Skeeve
>>> 
>>> Skeeve Stevens - eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>>> ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>>> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>>> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>>> twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
>>> 
>>> The Experts Who The Experts Call
>>> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
>>> *  sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy 
>>>   *
>>> ___
>>> sig-policy mailing list
>>> sig-policy@lists.apnic.net
>>> http://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy
>> *  sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy  
>>  *
>> ___
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> 
> 
> *  sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy   
> *
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Re: [sig-policy] Policy Regarding Transfers of Legacy Space [SECURITY=UNCLASSIFIED]

[HENDERSON MICHAEL, MR]

Skeeve,

First of all, there's probably going to be a lot of this:
In a previous life, I obtained on behalf of my then employer three adjacent 
"Class C" (and no, they weren't "/24"s in those days!) address blocks. And we 
later inherited at least two more non-adjacent blocks from mergers with other 
companies. I know that only about three or four individual IP addresses of all 
these allocations are visible on the Internet, and that the organisation 
quickly moved to RFC1918 private addresses internally, so the legacy blocks are 
all just about completely unused. Suddenly, their legacy space may be worth 
actual money. This company is not and never has been an APNIC member. I'm sure 
there are lots of other stories like mine.

Secondly, I believe that pragmatism ought to, in this matter, rule over 
principle:
So, we should not say that the vendor must become an APNIC member to reap the 
benefit of their 'found money', because by and large they won't bother, thus 
pushing the transfers underground.
I would say that the buyer / first intermediary must register the 'new' block 
of IP addresses with (in this case) APNIC, so that it moves out of 'legacy' 
space into 'regular' address space, then becomes subject to the existing 
regulatory framework. I may be banging a familiar drum here, but I don't think 
there should be any requirement to demonstrate 'need' for the purchaser to be 
allowed to register a legacy block: in my view the readiness to pony up some 
cash demonstrates sufficient 'need'.
The difficult practical / legal issue may be: how does the vendor demonstrate 
that a particular block of legacy space is in fact theirs to sell, particularly 
if it's never been visible on the Internet?


Regards


Mike

Note: The views expressed are my personal opinion and may not represent the 
position (if any) of my employer

From: sig-policy-boun...@lists.apnic.net 
[mailto:sig-policy-boun...@lists.apnic.net] On Behalf Of Skeeve Stevens
Sent: Wednesday, 26 February 2014 11:08 a.m.
To: apnic-t...@apnic.net; sig-pol...@apnic.net SIG List
Subject: [sig-policy] Policy Regarding Transfers of Legacy Space

Hi All,

I've been contacted by a holder of some small (not relevant) legacy space who 
was inquiring about selling it.

But, they are not an APNIC member (or a Non-Member).

Referring to: 
http://www.apnic.net/publications/media-library/documents/membership/non-member-fees#Historical
 under 1.4, it talks about receiving transfers, but not making transfers.

Any thoughts?

...Skeeve

Skeeve Stevens - eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; 
www.eintellegonetworks.com

Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve

facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; 
linkedin.com/in/skeeve

twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: 
www.theispguy.com

[http://eintellegonetworks.com/logos/ein09.png]
The Experts Who The Experts Call
Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering

The information contained in this Internet Email message is intended
for the addressee only and may contain privileged information, but not
necessarily the official views or opinions of the New Zealand Defence Force.
If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, copy or 
distribute this message or the information in it.

If you have received this message in error, please Email or telephone
the sender immediately.
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Re: [sig-policy] Policy Regarding Transfers of Legacy Space [SECURITY=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Skeeve Stevens]

Michael,

I completely agree.  Question is...   Is there any policy at the moment?
 Or should I be reading something for the next conference? ;-)



...Skeeve

*Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com

Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve

facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  
linkedin.com/in/skeeve

twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com


The Experts Who The Experts Call
Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:53 AM, HENDERSON MICHAEL, MR <
michael.hender...@nzdf.mil.nz> wrote:

>  Skeeve,
>
>
>
> First of all, there's probably going to be a lot of this:
>
> In a previous life, I obtained on behalf of my then employer three
> adjacent "Class C" (and no, they weren't "/24"s in those days!) address
> blocks. And we later inherited at least two more non-adjacent blocks from
> mergers with other companies. I know that only about three or four
> individual IP addresses of all these allocations are visible on the
> Internet, and that the organisation quickly moved to RFC1918 private
> addresses internally, so the legacy blocks are all just about completely
> unused. Suddenly, their legacy space may be worth actual money. This
> company is not and never has been an APNIC member. I'm sure there are lots
> of other stories like mine.
>
>
>
> Secondly, I believe that pragmatism ought to, in this matter, rule over
> principle:
>
> So, we should not say that the vendor must become an APNIC member to reap
> the benefit of their 'found money', because by and large they won't bother,
> thus pushing the transfers underground.
>
> I would say that the buyer / first intermediary must register the 'new'
> block of IP addresses with (in this case) APNIC, so that it moves out of
> 'legacy' space into 'regular' address space, then becomes subject to the
> existing regulatory framework. I may be banging a familiar drum here, but I
> don't think there should be any requirement to demonstrate 'need' for the
> purchaser to be allowed to register a legacy block: in my view the
> readiness to pony up some cash demonstrates sufficient 'need'.
>
> The difficult practical / legal issue may be: how does the vendor
> demonstrate that a particular block of legacy space is in fact theirs to
> sell, particularly if it's never been visible on the Internet?
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
>
>
> *Mike*
>
>
>
> *Note*: The views expressed are my personal opinion and may not represent
> the position (if any) of my employer
>
>
>
> *From:* sig-policy-boun...@lists.apnic.net [mailto:
> sig-policy-boun...@lists.apnic.net] *On Behalf Of *Skeeve Stevens
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 26 February 2014 11:08 a.m.
> *To:* apnic-t...@apnic.net; sig-pol...@apnic.net SIG List
> *Subject:* [sig-policy] Policy Regarding Transfers of Legacy Space
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> I've been contacted by a holder of some small (not relevant) legacy space
> who was inquiring about selling it.
>
>
>
> But, they are not an APNIC member (or a Non-Member).
>
>
>
> Referring to:
> http://www.apnic.net/publications/media-library/documents/membership/non-member-fees#Historical
>  under
> 1.4, it talks about receiving transfers, but not making transfers.
>
>
>
> Any thoughts?
>
>
>
> ...Skeeve
>
>
>
> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>
> ske...@eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>
> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>
> twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
>
>   The Experts Who The Experts Call
>
> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
> The information contained in this Internet Email message is intended
> for the addressee only and may contain privileged information, but not
> necessarily the official views or opinions of the New Zealand Defence
> Force.  If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose,
> copy or
> distribute this message or the information in it.  If you have received
> this message in error, please Email or telephone the sender immediately.
>
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