Re: [silk] Failure of Sociology in India?
Hello, from the resident sociologist on silklist. Shiv is quite correct -- sociology is a tired, underdeveloped, nelected, and largely irrelevant discipline in India, despite the fact that (I think) it produces more PhDs than any other. There are many reasons for this, and I would not like to bore members with a long discussion of these. It has to do with the history of the discipline in India, institutional problems, and many others. The language problem is also acute -- most of the 'good' sociology is carried out in English, with little link to debates going on in regional/ Indian languages. But there are nonetheless some sociologists around who are doing relevant and interesting work (in a few good centres such as DU and JNU), and who are also concerned about this problem -- hence the frequent lamentations from sociologists themselves about the state of the discipline. (To its credit, sociology is probably the most reflexive discipline around; we do a lot of navel gazing.) And quite a few sociologists do actually carry out important policy-related research, sit on government committees, submit reports on current issues (never read!) and so on. But there is much more that needs to be done. There is some research funding available from ICSSR and others bodies, even Tatas and others do cough up money sometimes; but most of us seek outside sources of funding (ie, outside of India). Another problem is that many of the best social scientists have flown the coop, and teach in western universities (I am a reverse migrant!), so we are not reproducing outselves. But now we see some returnees, coming back as fresh PhDs or with a few years of teaching -- this may change the picture ... A perennial conundrum for Indian sociology has been figuring out the correct frame of analysis; if all the theories and categories of sociology are imported from the West, how can they help us to undestand India? On the other hand, it has tended to be insular, looking only at India, without a sufficient comparative perspective. An unresolved debate ... and there are many others. Thanks to Shiv for highlighting this issue, since the general public, including intellectuals, seem to think that disciplines like sociology are quite irrelevant and unimportant. With the unbridled faith in science, technology and economic growth that seems to have gripped the middle classes, some critical reflection on India's current development trajectory is in order -- which is precisely what sociologists (and others) are supposed to be good at. Yet they do not often enough air their views, or their knowledge, in public. May I recommend a recently published book -- Anthropology in the East edited by Patricia Uberoi et al (Permanent Black, 2007). It's a collection of articles about important figures in the history of Indian sociology / social anthropology, and one of its purposes was to make a beginning at trying to understand the reasons for the sorry state of the discipline, by tracing its history. I also have a piece in this volume, in which I try to understand certain aspects of the discipline by looking at the work of one of the founding 'fathers', GS Ghurye. But you might find such a tome rather boring! Carol - Original Message - From: shiv sastry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 8:15 pm Subject: [silk] Failure of Sociology in India? To: silklist@lists.hserus.net > I don't mean to hurt anyone, although it is possible that people > may feel > hurt. > > I apologize in advance for any hurt I may cause as I post > opinions. > > What I write below are OPINIONS. Not research findings. > > Using Google it is easy to find references that point to the > failure of > Sociology in India. One paper spoke of sociology in India being a > "tired" > specialty. Another spoke of failure to address really big issues. > > My life revolves around talking to people and hearing their > innermost secrets > and I am faced with a whole lot of questions. Sometimes, answers > to those > questions seem come by chance when I am reading Western > literature. At other > times people make serendipitous observations that seem to have > truth in them > > I tend to think that India has a very narrow base of scholarship. > In the last > 60 years the entire country has rushed headlong into technical > education and > the humanities have been badly neglected. Day to day issues > affecting Indian > society are not addressed at all by the miniscule body of Indian > sociologists. Some questions have no answers except the chance > observations > by Western sociologists studying India and Indians. Neither the > government > nor corporate bodies come forward as far as I can tell to fund > research in > departments of sociology, and I suspect that the little sociology > there is in > India is funded by meager grants from some NGO or the other. I > don't really > know for sure. >
Re: [silk] Confirming silk meet on 17th
count me in. Savita On 12/12/07, Deepak Misra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Dec 11, 2007 6:30 PM, Bharath Chari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > All, > > > > Just confirming that the 17th is on at my place. Say around 7.30pm? > > Headcount please? > > > > So far I count: > > > > > My status has changed to tentative since something has comeup in the > meantime > > > Deepak >
Re: [silk] Confirming silk meet on 17th
On Dec 11, 2007 6:30 PM, Bharath Chari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > All, > > Just confirming that the 17th is on at my place. Say around 7.30pm? > Headcount please? > > So far I count: > > My status has changed to tentative since something has comeup in the meantime Deepak
Re: [silk] Dec 12, 13, 14: Technology, Governance, Citizenship meet, Bangalore
Security at IIMB will stop you. If you are not on the registered list, just add your name to the list with an air of authority and walk in. K 21 Yes, open source is making pace into governance slowly with for each their own understanding of open source (will briefly mention my meeting an NKC member and CEO of Infosys) d On Dec 11, 2007 9:28 AM, Venkat Mangudi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dinesh, > > Thanks for letting us know. I will probably attend on the 14th. I assume > quite a bit of Open Source is being used and will be used going forward > in governance. > > Venkat > > > Dinesh, Servelots wrote: > > Technology, Governance and Citizenship > > > > 12th, 13th and 14th December, 2007 > > Indian Institute of Management, Bangalore > > > > Technology is central to new modes of governance, and to emerging > > definitions of citizenship, participation, and progress. As state > > functions get automated through e-governance, experiences get > > codified, and paradigms of knowledge production come under the digital > > eye, the notions of governance and citizenship are changing. > > > > This conference explores questions at the intersection of technology > > and society in contemporary India, bringing together researchers and > > practitioners from a wide range of technical and social scientific > > backgrounds. Its aim is not so much to reiterate the conventional > > definitions of development, technology, transparency, and governance, > > but to unpack the construction of these terms in a way that allows us > > to make sense of the new practices of governance, and of contemporary > > politics, law and citizenship. > > > > See the 3 day program and key participants of the workshop. > > http://janasu.org/tgc > > > > Dec 12th, 2007 > > The first day of the workshop will introduce case studies of projects > > in India that highlight the technical aspects of e-governance, > > providing a concrete basis for discussions. > > > > Dec 13th, 2007 > > The second day's presentations will explore the social and > > epistemological questions emerging out of e-governance architectures > > and their implementation. > > > > Dec 14th, 2007 > > On the final day of the workshop, speakers will attempt to articulate > > a broader platform of research into questions about the intersection > > of technology and society. > > > > Registration is now open. Again check out the link: > > http://janastu.org/tgc > > > > > > > -- Dinesh, http://pantoto.com, +9180 26762963
[silk] plasma thrusters in upanishads
Was looking to crack a joke on ion/plasma thruster-propelled vimanas (what, no xenon?), but the interwebs are lousy with kooks. Ugh. -- Eugen* Leitl http://leitl.org";>leitl http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
Re: [silk] Confirming silk meet on 17th
On Dec 11, 2007 6:30 PM, Bharath Chari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > All, > > Just confirming that the 17th is on at my place. Say around 7.30pm? Headcount > please? > > So far I count: > > Deepak > Udhay > Bharath (me) > Shiv > Venky > Venkat > Gautam > Ramakrishna > and possibly > Josey WHAT! No women? Deepa. > >
[silk] Failure of Sociology in India?
I don't mean to hurt anyone, although it is possible that people may feel hurt. I apologize in advance for any hurt I may cause as I post opinions. What I write below are OPINIONS. Not research findings. Using Google it is easy to find references that point to the failure of Sociology in India. One paper spoke of sociology in India being a "tired" specialty. Another spoke of failure to address really big issues. My life revolves around talking to people and hearing their innermost secrets and I am faced with a whole lot of questions. Sometimes, answers to those questions seem come by chance when I am reading Western literature. At other times people make serendipitous observations that seem to have truth in them I tend to think that India has a very narrow base of scholarship. In the last 60 years the entire country has rushed headlong into technical education and the humanities have been badly neglected. Day to day issues affecting Indian society are not addressed at all by the miniscule body of Indian sociologists. Some questions have no answers except the chance observations by Western sociologists studying India and Indians. Neither the government nor corporate bodies come forward as far as I can tell to fund research in departments of sociology, and I suspect that the little sociology there is in India is funded by meager grants from some NGO or the other. I don't really know for sure. I believe that sociology in India is "massive work waiting to be done". None of the major issues that crop up have been addressed at all even though they stare you in the face or hit you between the eyes. I saw one reference that said that India had 15,000 sociologists, but only 1700 had registered with the association, and the number of papers being published was far fewer than that from a Finland. The blame for that is laid on the forced need for English and th lack of English competence among Indian sociologits, with no mechanism for them to write in their mother tongues. Is sociology neglected or not in India?
Re: [silk] You farted - was Wikipedia
At 2007-12-11 19:21:51 +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Cut the boring rhetoric boss. OK. -- ams
Re: [silk] You farted - was Wikipedia
On Tuesday 11 Dec 2007 3:25 pm, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote: > It's not ad hominem. If he'd said "you're a right-wing Hindu murderer, > so the results of your study are wrong", it would have been ad hominem. > But he's saying you have no data to substantiate your argument. That he > says you're cheap may be a nasty dig, but it's not ad hominem. Everyone is entitled to his view. You have yours. I have mine. > That "makes you" a murderer of Christians only insofar as it allows you > to exaggerate what you perceive as a bias against anyone who identifies > themselves as Hindu. Or do you think Thaths really can't or doesn't see > any distinction between you and the people who burned Graham Staines? Cut the boring rhetoric boss. I have no idea what Thaths thinks. But I can see that Thaths is a decent guy. shiv
Re: [silk] You farted - was Wikipedia
On Tuesday 11 Dec 2007 3:13 pm, Kiran Jonnalagadda wrote: > On 11-Dec-07, at 2:40 PM, shiv sastry wrote: > > Jace has just played the "you farted" game on me. Thanks, but no > > thanks. > > Thanks for the nice backdrop, Shiv. As I see it, I'm commenting on > the emperor's new clothes. > > Where's your research data? Too late. You're hopping mad now :D and I am not playing your game. Once again, thanks but no thanks. shiv
Re: [silk] Memory, from NatGeo
> > > Can't speak for Shoba, but my RDs are gone. Deepak picked them up > just a day after I made the offer here. > > Udhay, already filling up the shelf space thus freed. > > -- > ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com)) > > > How long do I have to wait for the shelf to start overflowing again ? Deepak
Re: [silk] Memory, from NatGeo
Biju Chacko wrote: [ on 06:29 PM 12/11/2007 ] > BTW - anybody in Bangalore wants several hundred Reader's Digest, > some dating back to the 50s? I need the shelf space. I'm strongly tempted to ask for both Can't speak for Shoba, but my RDs are gone. Deepak picked them up just a day after I made the offer here. Udhay, already filling up the shelf space thus freed. -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
[silk] Confirming silk meet on 17th
All, Just confirming that the 17th is on at my place. Say around 7.30pm? Headcount please? So far I count: Deepak Udhay Bharath (me) Shiv Venky Venkat Gautam Ramakrishna and possibly Josey
Re: [silk] Memory, from NatGeo
On Dec 5, 2007 6:18 PM, Udhay Shankar N <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Shoba Narayan wrote: [ on 06:03 PM 12/5/2007 ] > > >We have 5 years of accumulated old issue of National Geographic too :) > >How on earth do you get rid of them? > > Speaking for myself, I gave them away to my (soon to be ex) landlord > when I moved house. > > BTW - anybody in Bangalore wants several hundred Reader's Digest, > some dating back to the 50s? I need the shelf space. I'm strongly tempted to ask for both, but I know a. I'll never get the time to read them b. I don't have the shelf space either. c. My wife would probably kill me. -- b
Re: [silk] You farted - was Wikipedia
At 2007-12-11 14:40:20 +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > So you're saying that you're too cheap to get a real survey done, > > but expect to be taken seriously on "facts" you admit to making up > > yourself. > > If that is not an ad homimen I don't know what is. It's not ad hominem. If he'd said "you're a right-wing Hindu murderer, so the results of your study are wrong", it would have been ad hominem. But he's saying you have no data to substantiate your argument. That he says you're cheap may be a nasty dig, but it's not ad hominem. Really, "ad hominem" is a very specialised description. Every instance of someone being nasty certainly doesn't qualify. > Jace has just played the "you farted" game on me. Thanks, but no > thanks. Two can play at that game: > I have not been so lucky and have often been branded a right wing RSS > supporter, which makes me a murderer of Christians. That "makes you" a murderer of Christians only insofar as it allows you to exaggerate what you perceive as a bias against anyone who identifies themselves as Hindu. Or do you think Thaths really can't or doesn't see any distinction between you and the people who burned Graham Staines? -- ams
Re: [silk] You farted - was Wikipedia
On 11-Dec-07, at 2:40 PM, shiv sastry wrote: Jace has just played the "you farted" game on me. Thanks, but no thanks. Thanks for the nice backdrop, Shiv. As I see it, I'm commenting on the emperor's new clothes. Where's your research data?
[silk] You farted - was Wikipedia
On Tuesday 11 Dec 2007 10:19 am, Kiran Jonnalagadda wrote:
> So you're saying that you're too cheap to get a real survey done, but
> expect to be taken seriously on "facts" you admit to making up yourself.
If that is not an ad homimen I don't know what is. However I will let it pass.
The reason I shall let is pass is related to another story I once made up as
a parable.
Let me relate that
It's called the "You farted" story
There is a particularly irritating psychological trick that you may have had
played on you, and perhaps you are guilty of playing it yourself. People do
it all the time - but it is educative to find influential groups and nations
playing that trick.
The "game" or trick is to get a person on the defensive with an unprovoked
accusation. The agenda and tone is set by the accuser and the passive
personality goes on the defensive right from the start.
Let me explain. For clarity I will call it the "You farted" game
A group of people are sitting together - say 6 or 7 friends in a hostel room.
Suddenly the foul smell of a fart wafts up.
An accuser personality (call him 'A') picks out a passive personality ('P')
and says "Hey P, you farted"
P protests "No I did not"
A: "Yes you did"
P: "Shut up and stop accusing me"
A:"He Ha. It's OK. No need to cover your guilt by getting angry. I know you
farted. We don't mind - just warn us next time.
What happens in this exchange is that the Accuser 'A' has the initiative all
the time. He sets the pace, and he sets the Agenda. He may actually have
farted himself, but he gets away giving the impression that "P" is guilty.
Jace has just played the "you farted" game on me. Thanks, but no thanks.
> FWIW, there are sociologists in India. Some are on this list.
I have actually met some of the sociologists on this list.
shiv
