Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[ss]

On Thursday 07 Oct 2010 8:49:01 pm Mahesh Murthy wrote:
> I really don't know which particular time-space continuum you reside in but
> in the one that seems to be surrounding most everyone in this country, a
>  lot of change has happened,
> 


You dont really need this to buttress your argument Mahesh.This is a 
rhetorical browinie point that you do not have to score if you are sure of 
what you are trying to tell me. It serves only to fluff up your post with 
material that adds no meaning to what you may be trying to say about the 
subject by changing the subject to where you think I reside.

Do my views upset you so much? Don't take it that hard sir. People are allowed 
to have different views. And people are allowed to disagree with me as much as 
I disagree with your views, Where either of us resides  mentally or physically 
is irrelevant.

Peace.

shiv

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[ss]

On Thursday 07 Oct 2010 8:49:01 pm Mahesh Murthy wrote:
> Perhaps it's also time to get off the engineering and medical fixation.
>  That is so 1960s/1970s/1980s. All of us perhaps came from that background.
>  I posit that very few of our children (and perhaps we can do a quick
>  audit) are following in our footsteps.
> 
No Mahesh. You have got it wrong. 

It's not you  or me who are fixated with medicine and engineering. It's the 
curricula of school boards and a huge number of Indian parents. 

Even back in the 1960s choices other than medcine and engineering were 
available. It's just that those two were pushed as safe and reliable choices. 
And my own peers who did not do medicine or engineering are doing perfectly 
well.

Today that choices are even wider for a child. A child can safely give up or 
not opt for medicine or engineering. I agree with you here. The choices are 
there. You have not understod what I am trying to say, or else we have to 
agree to disagree.

But most people are unaware of the choices, and what is worse is that school 
systems do not help parents and children with opting out of science and math 
by allowing a child to develop skills like art or music before being forced to 
choose a college education. When a child finishes school in India he has 
invariably passed an exam in science, math and language and little else. The 
demands of those 3 subjects have been made so rigorous that the child has had 
no time to develop alternative skills or interests. The fact that alternative 
skills and interests could lead to careers is not revealed in any meaningful 
way by most schools who are scrambling to perpare their children for the math 
and science requirements. And schoolds do that because the education board 
curriculum itself is skewed to demand that science and math are mandatorily 
taught to a  high enough standard to enable a child to enter a medicine or 
engineering course. Nothing is done to equip children to do music, art, 
history, law, catering or specific branches of science or combinations of say 
computers and music. Indian children don't even figure out that there can be a 
futre in any of those things. And the schools and curriculum are to blame. 

Furthemore I think you have misinterpreteed the news item of the engineering 
seats that are not taken. Those seats have not been taken because of over 
capacity. That overcapacity was created because of a mad rush for medicine and 
engineering. What India is doing is making engineers and doctors out of people 
who would be much better off doing something else. But those doctors and 
engineers were never informed of the choices thay had before they jumped in. 
That is still happening in India. You were lucky enough to opt out but people 
are still geting fooled by the system. Perhaps you have not found out yet. 

shiv

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Mahesh Murthy]

On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 11:19 AM, ss  wrote:


> That means your child who is in

2nd grade today will be attempting to choose a career with no significant
> change in system despite that fact that "times are changing".
>

Times have changed. Already.

My kid here in India has exponentially more education and career choices
than I ever did here in India.

I really don't know which particular time-space continuum you reside in but
in the one that seems to be surrounding most everyone in this country, a lot
of change has happened, certainly since the time you were a kid, certainly
since the time I was a kid, and even certainly since the time my 12-year old
was a kid.

And to quote the cliche, the pace of change is increasing.

Perhaps it's also time to get off the engineering and medical fixation. That
is so 1960s/1970s/1980s. All of us perhaps came from that background. I
posit that very few of our children (and perhaps we can do a quick audit)
are following in our footsteps.

Our reliable source of all things digestible and otherwise, The Times of
India says so too:
http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=TOINEW&BaseHref=TOIM/2010/10/07&PageLabel=1&EntityId=Ar00108&ViewMode=HTML&GZ=T

Forget 2nd grade kids. Nobody today itself wants to do that stuff anymore:

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[ss]

This is a deliberate top post.

Mahesh - while not denying the existence of all that you are talking about I 
am extremely cynical about any change in the short to medium term

The phrase "short-to medium term" is selected deliberately by me. A person who 
has a child and has to held that thild theough school and then try and ensure 
(as indian parents do) that he can have some way of sustaining himself in life 
is basically a "short to medium term plan". That means your child who is in 
2nd grade today will be attempting to choose a career with no significant 
change in system despite that fact that "times are changing".

What that basically means is that the elite such as us will always find "bypass 
routes" for our children because the "mainstream route" is chock full of 
people stuck to their old biases. India offers a clear "Catch 22 situation"

If your child wants to do medicine or engineering - your child faces such stiff 
competition that unless he is extraordinarily talented he wil have to attend 
extra tuition from 9th standard up, or he will find it is too late to get into 
one of the more reputable colleges. failing that you can take the "bypass 
route" of paying a huge donation

If your child does not want to do enginering or medicine, there are very very 
few people and very very few schools, and very very few parents who know what 
he can do and the education is not at all helpful in preparing a child for 
what he may need outside of medicine or engineering. The choices are there. 
But school boards do nothing to offer or guide them for various reasons.

Either way - a significant number of perceptive and enlightened parents end up 
frustrated, unhappy and angry by the time their child finishes school.  I 
believe that by the time an average parent gets interested in the education 
system - it is probably too late to help his own kids live a life that is not 
dominated by lack of choice. 

I may change my views on this if I can see the sloth in india moving at a 
faster pace - but I am that to see that despite Kapils Sibal's short fuse. 

shiv




On Thursday 07 Oct 2010 10:04:07 am Mahesh Murthy wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:36 AM, ss  wrote:
> > In any case your experiences with your son do not in any way repesent the
> > experience of the majority in the Indian education system. You are one of
> > the
> > elite who will bypass the system as long as possible.
> 
> Shiv, the point isn't about being elite. The fact that you are commenting
>  on this forum is in itself an indication that you're as elite as me or
>  anyone else on this list.
> 
> The point was about your persistent entreaties that 'nothing has changed in
> Indian education' and 'it's as bad as ever' and the 'role of rote' and
>  'it's all engineering or medicine still' etc.
> 
> My counterpoint was that your knowledge of what constitutes Indian
>  education today seems quite significantly out of date.
> 
> Yes, a large mass of education is as pathetic as it used to be when you and
> I were growing up. But there are significant signs of not just alternative
> schools in India as various people have alluded to here, and of kids
>  seeking careers far removed from engineering and medicine, and of schools
>  and school systems (beyond the state boards and CBSE) that are no longer
>  as outdated as things were in our time. Not just that, there are large
>  pockets of innovation.
> 
> As a side indicator of that last point, I'd like to bring to note the
> remarkable performance of private Indian companies in education - something
> that was unthinkable a mere 20 years ago. Educomp and Everon have market
> caps of over $500m and yesterday's IPO entrant CareerPoint is quickly
> getting there.
> 
> I have more than just a passing interest here. As an investor in the sector
> I can tell you from first-hand knowledge that there's huge consumer
>  interest in facets of education we would have considered unconventional a
>  few decades ago. And not just from what you'd consider "the elite India".
>  One of my investees focuses solely on teaching kids in K through 4
>  physical education. With significant traction in Chattisgarh.  Another
>  focuses solely on teaching 8 to 12 year olds robotics. Big traction in
>  non-urban Maharashtra. A third runs a dozen schools around India, most
>  outside major cities. Each is barely able to keep up with consumer demand.
> 
> The times, they are a-changin'.
> 
> My $0.02,
> 
> Mahesh
> 

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Mahesh Murthy]

On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:36 AM, ss  wrote:

>
> In any case your experiences with your son do not in any way repesent the
> experience of the majority in the Indian education system. You are one of
> the
> elite who will bypass the system as long as possible.


Shiv, the point isn't about being elite. The fact that you are commenting on
this forum is in itself an indication that you're as elite as me or anyone
else on this list.

The point was about your persistent entreaties that 'nothing has changed in
Indian education' and 'it's as bad as ever' and the 'role of rote' and 'it's
all engineering or medicine still' etc.

My counterpoint was that your knowledge of what constitutes Indian education
today seems quite significantly out of date.

Yes, a large mass of education is as pathetic as it used to be when you and
I were growing up. But there are significant signs of not just alternative
schools in India as various people have alluded to here, and of kids seeking
careers far removed from engineering and medicine, and of schools and school
systems (beyond the state boards and CBSE) that are no longer as outdated as
things were in our time. Not just that, there are large pockets of
innovation.

As a side indicator of that last point, I'd like to bring to note the
remarkable performance of private Indian companies in education - something
that was unthinkable a mere 20 years ago. Educomp and Everon have market
caps of over $500m and yesterday's IPO entrant CareerPoint is quickly
getting there.

I have more than just a passing interest here. As an investor in the sector
I can tell you from first-hand knowledge that there's huge consumer interest
in facets of education we would have considered unconventional a few decades
ago. And not just from what you'd consider "the elite India". One of my
investees focuses solely on teaching kids in K through 4 physical education.
With significant traction in Chattisgarh.  Another focuses solely on
teaching 8 to 12 year olds robotics. Big traction in non-urban Maharashtra.
A third runs a dozen schools around India, most outside major cities. Each
is barely able to keep up with consumer demand.

The times, they are a-changin'.

My $0.02,

Mahesh

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[ss]

On Wednesday 06 Oct 2010 10:19:11 am Mahesh Murthy wrote:
> The first ever exam that happens in his life will be the IGCSE  / IB in the
> 10th grade. And here is the IB policy on calculators:
> 
Good for your son.

In any case your experiences with your son do not in any way repesent the 
experience of the majority in the Indian education system. You are one of the 
elite who will bypass the system as long as possible. Until job seeking time 
at least - unless you fall in the category of "moneyed and propertied" so that 
the "next seven generations" are accounted for. Or he goes abroad.

About the Indian education system and calculators:

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2708/stories/20100423270809400.htm

>Pranjay Jain was diagnosed with dyslexia at the age of 10. The medical
> certificate issued by the Post Graduate Institute of Medical Education and
> Research (PGIMER), Chandigarh, notes that he has a difficulty in arithmetic
> and that he has a poor concept of fractions, and he has been advised the
> use of a calculator. He claimed protection of his rights on account of
> natural disability under the provisions of the Persons with Disabilities
> (Equal Opportunities, Protection of Rights and Full Participation) Act,
> 1995, and related laws. He sought the High Court’s direction to the CBSE to
> permit him to use a calculator for the Class XII examinations and for the
> All India Engineering Entrance Examination (AIEEE) scheduled to be held in
> April (also conducted by the CBSE), besides granting him additional time
> and a scribe to write the paper.
>
>The High Court was constrained to reject his prayer on March 2 in view of
> the stay granted by the Supreme Court on April 2, 2007, on the operation of
> a Bombay High Court order in an SLP filed by the CBSE against the High
> Court’s order in Sushil Kumar vs Kendriya Vidyalaya.
>
>Sushil Kumar, also suffering from dyslexia, had requested that he be
> permitted to use a calculator for the Class XII examinations in
> mathematics, physics and chemistry. He also wanted parity with dyslexic
> students of the HSC Board, Maharashtra, who are permitted to use
> calculators in the examinations. The High Court accepted his contention in
> its order on February 26, 2007.
>
>The CBSE argued before the High Court that students suffering from dyslexia
> should not opt for mathematics. The High Court described the CBSE’s
> approach as unfair and directed it to permit Sushil Kumar and other
> students with similar disability to use ordinary calculators for writing
> the mathematics paper if they apply for such permission.
>
>The Supreme Court admitted the CBSE’s appeal against this judgment and
> granted a stay on its operation. However, before the CBSE could secure the
> stay, it had to permit the use of calculators by such students for the
> mathematics examination held on March 22, 2007, in compliance with the
> Bombay High Court order. The stay granted by the Supreme Court, therefore,
> was misconceived.
>
>The Bombay High Court had also relied on a 2006 order of a Division Bench of
> the High Court directing the HSC Board, Maharashtra, to permit
> learning-disabled students to use calculators in the Class XII mathematics,
> bookkeeping and accountancy examinations of the Board. This Bench disagreed
> with the Board’s view that if even after using a calculator the performance
> of learning-disabled children did not improve, they might get more
> frustrated and dispirited. More important, this Division Bench decided the
> case after considering the report of an expert committee that studied the
> issue. Policy for disabled
>
>In his petition, Pranjay Jain pointed out that the National Policy for
> Persons with Disability, announced in February 2006, contained provisions
> for facilities for persons suffering from dyslexia, which, among other
> things, included the use of a calculator. The policy recommended the
> following:
>
>“Examination system will be modified to make it disabled-friendly by
> exemptions such as learning mathematics, learning only one language, etc.
> Further, facilities like extra time, use of calculators, use of Clarke’s
> tables, scribes, etc., would be provided based on the requirement.”
>
>Pranjay Jain was allowed to use a calculator for mathematics and the science
> subjects in his Class X Board examination by the Council for the Indian
> School Certificate Examinations (CISCE). Because of this concession, he
> could score 92 marks in mathematics and 83 marks in science. He was also
> granted extra time, which helped him to secure good marks in other
> subjects. However, the CBSE used his good performance in the Class X
> examination to suggest that he was a normal student. Pranjay Jain submitted
> to the High Court enough proof to show that whenever such facilities were
> withdrawn, as in the Class IX and XI examinations, he scored average marks.
>
>The CBSE claimed that Class X and XII were basically of secondary-level
> standard, where t

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Charles Haynes]

I calculate square roots manually using Newton-Raphson even though I
was "taught" the manual method, it's been entirely useless to me.
However Newton-Raphson continues to be useful.

I believe manual calculation of square roots to be a canonical example
of "useless rote knowledge."

-- Charles

On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 3:42 AM, Heather Madrone  wrote:
> On 10/5/10 9:01 PM October 5, 2010, ss wrote:
>>
>> Incidentally how many people on Silk can recall how to calculate the
>> square
>> root of a number manually?
>>
>
> Not that I was a product of the Indian education system, but I can calculate
> a square root manually. It's not a particularly difficult process, although
> it is tedious.
>
> My children, however, who were educated by the finest math program I could
> find (Singapore math, developed for and used by the schools in Singapore)
> have not had to calculate square roots. Instead, they have solved a great
> many difficult and interesting word problems
>
> --
> Heather Madrone  (heat...@madrone.com)  http://www.madrone.com
> http://www.sunsplinter.blogspot.com
>
> I'd love to change the world, but they won't give me access to the source
> code.
>
>
>
>

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Heather Madrone]

On 10/5/10 9:01 PM October 5, 2010, ss wrote:


Incidentally how many people on Silk can recall how to calculate the square
root of a number manually?
   
Not that I was a product of the Indian education system, but I can 
calculate a square root manually. It's not a particularly difficult 
process, although it is tedious.


My children, however, who were educated by the finest math program I 
could find (Singapore math, developed for and used by the schools in 
Singapore) have not had to calculate square roots. Instead, they have 
solved a great many difficult and interesting word problems


--
Heather Madrone  (heat...@madrone.com)  http://www.madrone.com
http://www.sunsplinter.blogspot.com

I'd love to change the world, but they won't give me access to the source code.

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Lahar Appaiah]

It's not about what you learnt- the whole point of hiring people from a
certain institute is that you are picking people who were good enough to get
into that institute. By going to a top rated institute, you ensure you have
a working method of getting access to the 'top of the gene pool'.

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:

>
> The question would then arise as to whether most of what is taught - and
> learnt with anywhere from resentment to resigned impatience - is any use at
> all beyond HR managers insisting on seeing academics certificates before
> your first job, and then insisting on hiring people from "the best schools"
> to perform tasks that dont require the services of a nuclear physicist or
> electrical engineer. Later on - say 10 years down the line, not too good
> academics can be conveniently omitted from the CV, to be sure. Then if you
> need anything more complex than changing a fused bulb, call an electrician
> who never did go to college ..
>
>

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Sruthi Krishnan]

Had read this in a friend's dissertation on the education system and
this thread reminded me of it. I think it articulates pretty well what
the malaise in the system is:


"They school them to confuse process and substance. Once these become
blurred, a new logic is assumed: the more treatment
there is, the better are the results; or, escalation leads to success.
The pupil is thereby "schooled" to confuse teaching with learning,
grade advancement with education, a diploma with competence, and
fluency with the ability to say something new. His imagination is
"schooled" to accept service in place of value. Medical treatment is
mistaken for health care, social work for the improvement of community
life, police protection for safety, military poise for national
security, the rat race for productive work. Health, learning, dignity,
independence, and creative endeavour are defined as little more than
the performance of the institutions, which claim to serve these ends,
and their improvement is made to depend on allocating more resources
to the management of hospitals, schools, and other agencies in
question."
- Ivan Illich, Deschooling society

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Mahesh Murthy]

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:

> ss [06/10/10 09:31 +0530]:
>
> The question would then arise as to whether most of what is taught - and
> learnt with anywhere from resentment to resigned impatience - is any use at
> all beyond HR managers insisting on seeing academics certificates before
> your first job, and then insisting on hiring people from "the best schools"
> to perform tasks that dont require the services of a nuclear physicist or
> electrical engineer.
>

My common lament is that the 60s / 70s / 80s / 90s Indian parent dream of
their son being an IIT-IIM is in reality about the kid learning 4 years of
computer science followed by 2 years of marketing to then become an
Excel-jockey investment banker at Goldman / Lehman. A complete waste of any
and all government-subsidised education offered right through the process.

Analogously, it is like learning 4 years of swimming followed by 2 years of
knitting to then become a carpenter.

The much-ballyhooed Indian education system that we apparently take great
pride in is a chimera.

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Suresh Ramasubramanian]

ss [06/10/10 09:31 +0530]:

Incidentally how many people on Silk can recall how to calculate the square
root of a number manually? If you were taught in the first place.  How many
cooks need to know how to grow wheat or milk a cow?  Or slaughter a cow for
that matter?


Having thrown my maths and physics textbooks into the dustbin (and then, in
a fit of economy, sold them to a second hand bookstore) as soon as I passed
the exams they were meant for .. and then having got into a series of jobs
where there has been zero need for me to remember what abel did to his
lemma, carnot to his cycle or ohm to his law.

And having known people who pass out of IITs (rather than obscure osmania
university affiliated colleges) who then pass out of IIMs, following which
they spend their time interacting with 10th standard pass local businessmen
who are major distributors of soap, shampoo etc brands...

The question would then arise as to whether most of what is taught - and
learnt with anywhere from resentment to resigned impatience - is any use at
all beyond HR managers insisting on seeing academics certificates before
your first job, and then insisting on hiring people from "the best schools"
to perform tasks that dont require the services of a nuclear physicist or
electrical engineer. Later on - say 10 years down the line, not too good
academics can be conveniently omitted from the CV, to be sure. Then if you
need anything more complex than changing a fused bulb, call an electrician
who never did go to college ..

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Mahesh Murthy]

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 10:02 AM, ss  wrote:

> On Wednesday 06 Oct 2010 9:49:05 am Mahesh Murthy wrote:
> > #4. Casio Scientific Calculators are standard-issue in my son's class,
> >  Grade 8, Bombay, as they are in many other urban schools across India.
> >
> Tell me that again when he has to do his CBSE exam.


 The first ever exam that happens in his life will be the IGCSE  / IB in the
10th grade. And here is the IB policy on calculators:

*"Calculators are not allowed in examinations for the following IB groups :*
*1 and 2 (Languages), 3 (Individuals and Societies, except for Business and*
*Management where they are allowed),6 (Arts and Electives).*
*
*
*In all Group 5 subjects (Mathematics, Computer Science) calculators are
allowed.*
*Graphic Display Calculators (GDC) are allowed provided they conform to
certain*
*requirements, indeed, they are recommended."*
*
*
*more details here on specific types of graphic display calculators
allowed: *http://www.rdpsd.ab.ca/~david_smith/Use%20of%20Calculators.pdf


I'm not sure why you're talking about the CBSE.

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[ss]

On Wednesday 06 Oct 2010 9:49:14 am Mahesh Murthy wrote:
> #2 Other boards than CBSE are growing much faster in India.
> 
Forget growth. Relevance wise the state exam boards are far more relevant than 
CBSE

Last year only 800,000 children did the CBSE exam all over India. 

In Karnataka alone the number taking the SSLC school leaving exam was 800,000.

CBSE is a minor player in Indian school education.

ICSE is smaller and less relevant

shiv

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[ss]

On Wednesday 06 Oct 2010 9:49:05 am Mahesh Murthy wrote:
> #4. Casio Scientific Calculators are standard-issue in my son's class,
>  Grade 8, Bombay, as they are in many other urban schools across India.
> 
Tell me that again when he has to do his CBSE exam. Many 8 year old kids have 
been issued laptops by their schools. That makes parents think that a lot has 
changed. Until they come up against the school leaving exam wall. No 
calculators allowed there. Then you realise that things have changed for the 
worse.
 

shiv

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Mahesh Murthy]

Space-time continuum mismatches #1 to #3.

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 6:06 AM, ss  wrote:

> On Wednesday 06 Oct 2010 4:03:09 am Thaths wrote:
> >  And the high school CBSE textbooks are
> > pretty damn good.
> >
>
> Correct, with the folowing caveats
>
> 1) The school child intends to do medicine or engineering
>

#1 Nah. Not really any more.

>
> 2) The school itself is convinced that teaching a child enough to perfrom
> well
> in his CBSE exam is enough  and that survival of the school is not denedent
> on
> joining the schools rat race to teach more than what is required by the
> curriculum to ensure "success in IIT entrance exams"
>

#2 Other boards than CBSE are growing much faster in India.

>
> Schools have not yet opened up to the fact that there
> is a world outside of medicine and engineering.
>
> #3. Virtually all schools in metros have.

>
> shiv
>
>

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Mahesh Murthy]

Space-time continuum mismatch #4 - #5

Not in India. In India children doing problems based on Trigonometric
> identities and Calculus are not allowed to use Logarithms (in use for over
> 3
> centuries by the rest of the world) or calculators.


#4. Casio Scientific Calculators are standard-issue in my son's class, Grade
8, Bombay, as they are in many other urban schools across India.



> This has not changed since I was young.


#5 Lots has changed.



>
>

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Mahesh Murthy]

Space-time continuum mismatch #6

All Indian school children are taught how to calculate the square root of a
> number manually.
>

#6 Nope. Not in many urban schools. They're simply asked to use their
calculators. .

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[ss]

On Wednesday 06 Oct 2010 7:33:15 am Udhay Shankar N wrote:
> I don't really disagree, but you may be at risk of ignoring a couple of
> things:
> 
> http://www.poynter.org/column.asp?id=52&aid=71048
> 

I think this guy is talking about next-to-no-math skills. If you recall I said 
that for children to go beyond simple math skills they have to be allowed to 
use logs or calculators simply because of the time constratints.

All Indian school children are taught how to calculate the square root of a 
number manually.

In a physics exam the child may be asked to calculate the height of a cylinder 
whose volume and radius are given. What is required of the child is to know 
how to apply the forumla and that requires the calculation of a square root. 
The maunal method is tedious and takes several minutes. The accuracy of the 
answer needs to be checked and if wrong it needs to be recalculated. When this 
process is time bound - the child may fail to perfom well in a physics exam 
not because he did not know the calculation, but because he made a minor 
arithmetic error that made him spend precious extra minutes in recalculating 
the square root. A calculator (or log table) at this point removes the need 
for needlessly taxing a child with an unnecessary skill that he is already 
familar with.

So the child is "not good at physics" because he spends extra time in 
recognizing and correcting an  error. This is what our system does and it 
astounds me at the fact that a huge number of ostensibly well educated and/or 
intelligent people are unable to see the problem.

Incidentally how many people on Silk can recall how to calculate the square 
root of a number manually? If you were taught in the first place.  How many 
cooks need to know how to grow wheat or milk a cow?  Or slaughter a cow for 
that matter? 

shiv

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Udhay Shankar N]

On 06-Oct-10 6:25 AM, ss wrote:

> Rote memory of multiplication tables is all very well and may put me on a 
> higher intellectual plane than a supermarket assistant. But I believe you may 
> be unaware of how far this stupidity goes in India.
> 
> I think there are two simple things that people need to know about 
> mathematics, which every school child must learn.
> 
> 1) As maths gets more compex - part of it is plain drudgery - where you add 
> up 
> or multiply long banks of numbers. And because of this drudgery it is 
> possible 
> for the best people to make errors.
> 
> 2) Errors in maths are not a problem as long as one takes the time to check 
> and cross check one's sums. Accountants do that, as do supermarket assistants 
> and college professors. You do that too when you are looking at your 
> accounts. 
> In real life, when you are doing these sums to re-check for accuracy or 
> errors 
> nobody is sitting on your neck to ask you to finish your sum in  seconds or 
> minutes. Except perhaps an impatient custormer next to a slow supermarket 
> assistant. And in maths exams. 
> 
> It has been known for centuries that maths can be drudgery and error prone. 
> It 
> was precisely for that reason that Logarithms came into use in the 1600s. 

I don't really disagree, but you may be at risk of ignoring a couple of
things:

http://www.poynter.org/column.asp?id=52&aid=71048


-- 
((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[ss]

On Tuesday 05 Oct 2010 6:59:01 am Deepa Mohan wrote:
>  don't like the stress it places on only rote memory,
> but rote memory is not an entirely bad thing, as any Indian, faced with a
> supermarket assistant who needs a calculator for the simplest reckoning,
> will agree.
> 

Deepa pardon me for being extremely cynical, and not a little irritated about 
this statement.

Rote memory of multiplication tables is all very well and may put me on a 
higher intellectual plane than a supermarket assistant. But I believe you may 
be unaware of how far this stupidity goes in India.

I think there are two simple things that people need to know about 
mathematics, which every school child must learn.

1) As maths gets more compex - part of it is plain drudgery - where you add up 
or multiply long banks of numbers. And because of this drudgery it is possible 
for the best people to make errors.

2) Errors in maths are not a problem as long as one takes the time to check 
and cross check one's sums. Accountants do that, as do supermarket assistants 
and college professors. You do that too when you are looking at your accounts. 
In real life, when you are doing these sums to re-check for accuracy or errors 
nobody is sitting on your neck to ask you to finish your sum in  seconds or 
minutes. Except perhaps an impatient custormer next to a slow supermarket 
assistant. And in maths exams. 

It has been known for centuries that maths can be drudgery and error prone. It 
was precisely for that reason that Logarithms came into use in the 1600s. 

After calculators were invented - they were allowed into higher maths so that 
children (and others) could move beyond automaton like calculation and cross 
checking and do some real complex math that actually requires a brain. 

Not in India. In India children doing problems based on Trigonometric 
identities and Calculus are not allowed to use Logarithms (in use for over 3 
centuries by the rest of the world) or calculators. And I am sorry to say that 
this stupidity is being perpetuated by the very attitude you have posted - i.e 
that there is some greatness in rote learning that can be preserved and 
promoted ad nauseam. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are holding 
our children down and most people do not know or do not want to believe it.

This has not changed since I was young. How much longer are we going to push 
stupidity in the name of tradition? 

shiv

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[ss]

On Wednesday 06 Oct 2010 4:03:09 am Thaths wrote:
>  And the high school CBSE textbooks are
> pretty damn good.
> 

Correct, with the folowing caveats

1) The school child intends to do medicine or engineering 

2) The school itself is convinced that teaching a child enough to perfrom well 
in his CBSE exam is enough  and that survival of the school is not denedent on 
joining the schools rat race to teach more than what is required by the 
curriculum to ensure "success in IIT entrance exams"

On another note, I find that there are two occasions in one's life when one 
comes across the usefullness or other wise of the school education sysem in 
India. 

The first is one's personal experience with the system. he second is whn you 
have to put your child or children through the system.

My judgement after having been through both: It has becoem much worse. One's 
personal experiences with school have no conneection with what children are 
being put through now. Schools have not yet opened up to the fact that there 
is a world outside of medicine and engineering.


shiv

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Thaths]

On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 2:50 PM, Mahesh Murthy  wrote:
> again perhaps SS lives a little in the past

You know what they say about the bast being *behind* us. (ba-da-dum-dish!)

> The experience before that, in retrospect, was equally meaningless. I
> studied in average schools - Kendriya Vidyalayas - or government-subsidised
> low-end schools for the non-Indians on this list - and while reminiscing
> with alumni recently, we agreed unanimously that we had crap textbooks, crap
> teachers, crap facilities and still turned out ok.

I agree with almost all of your post except for this paragraph.
Kendriya Vidyalayas are hardly low-end schools. They may not have the
same nerd-snob appeal as Delhi Public School or Padma Seshadri or PS
Senior, but they are (pulling a number from thin air) in the top
10-15% of schools in India. And the high school CBSE textbooks are
pretty damn good. If you think they were crap, you should check out
the Tamil Nadu state board text books - Tamil Nadu being one of those
states where the education system is far better than in most other
states.

I completely agree about crap teachers and crap facilities.

> But I do believe it makes a huge difference who your peer group is while
> you're at school-going age - especially secondary and high school.

Ab.so.lute.ly spot-on!

Thaths
-- 
Marge: Quick, somebody perform CPR!
Homer: Umm (singing) I see a bad moon rising.
Marge: That's CCR!
Homer: Looks like we're in for nasty weather.
Sudhakar Chandra                                    Slacker Without Borders

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Mahesh Murthy]

On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Biju Chacko  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Deepa Mohan  wrote:
> > Yes, I realize that there must be many people who have not attended
> > university on this list;
>


I am from India and I didn't go to college - more accurately I went to 3
semesters out of 8 in a B. Tech. program and never went back. I didn't
believe there was anything being taught there that I felt like learning.

Yes, I was product of the same system that believed then, around 1982, that
an engineering degree or one in medicine was critical.

I lecture today in over 25 colleges a year - and I disagree with SS in that
I don't see this Engineering - Medicine craze any more. The best and
brightest today aren't at IITs or RECs - those are still lower-middle class
small-town dream destinations largely disconnected from mainstream reality.

The urban bright young masses are more likely to be doing a meaningless
degree at a college like HR or KC in Bombay, Nizam's in Hyd or Ethiraj in
Chennai - and eager to get into a meaningless MBA and then get a job. This
group far, far outnumbers the Engineers and Doctors. And rightfully so.

And being a victim of not having been born a SC / ST / Backward class or
whatever (by virtue of being a Tam Brahm) while I was growing up, I am
sensitive to the fact that the urban masses don't quite face this issue any
more - again perhaps SS lives a little in the past-  or perhaps in rural
India. The scene in the cities is far more egalitarian today than it was 30
years ago. Yes, there is some legislation for reservation in govt-funded
institutions, but thankfully those are a minority now - and anyway caste
certificates are freely forge-able and available on demand: the appropriate
way to disrupt the system.

There certainly isn't a college system that worked then - and there isn't
now.

The experience before that, in retrospect, was equally meaningless. I
studied in average schools - Kendriya Vidyalayas - or government-subsidised
low-end schools for the non-Indians on this list - and while reminiscing
with alumni recently, we agreed unanimously that we had crap textbooks, crap
teachers, crap facilities and still turned out ok.

Perhaps the only thing of value then was the per group we grew up with in
and outside school - including the K-Circle and YOCs experience in Hyderabad
that in retrospect shaped me more deeply than any subject in class did. All
of this is consistent with this thesis that deeply resonated with me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nurture_Assumption .

Have since tried to focus less on the school or the education system for my
son - I believe it makes little difference whether you go through SSC / ISC
/ ICSE / IGCSE / IB or whatever school system or even no school system. I
believe it makes very little difference whether you go to a school with crap
teachers or mediocre ones or even very good ones or even don't go to school
- the best that the best teachers can do is to let you enjoy your time -
without really impacting your future or life in any meaningful way (no Dead
Poet's Societies happening here).

But I do believe it makes a huge difference who your peer group is while
you're at school-going age - especially secondary and high school. And for
the last few years I've been seeing if I can design / select / shape /
influence the peer group that surrounds my 12-year old son.

How can he have a set of people his age around him who can inspire him to
greatness, yet keep his feet firmly on the ground, yet allow him a normal
life, yet allow him to shine, yet allow him to grow into a confident person
and yet allow him to find his niche and yet allow him to learn to be curious
and yet...

It's a problem that's quite Heisenbergian in its dynamics and complexity.
Don't think I've succeeded yet - but it's a lot of fun trying!

My $0.02

Mahesh

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Indrajit Gupta]

Read me at:

--- On Tue, 5/10/10, Ramakrishnan Sundaram  wrote:

From: Ramakrishnan Sundaram 
Subject: Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications
To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:39

On 5 October 2010 14:20, Biju Chacko  wrote:

There are many Indians on this list who do not have a University
education, myself included.


And some who have one, nominally, despite attending only one year out of the 
three it usually takes.

Ram 
And others who have one, after attending three years plus time out for 
injuries, but don't feel any different.



  

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Ramakrishnan Sundaram]

On 5 October 2010 14:20, Biju Chacko  wrote:

> There are many Indians on this list who do not have a University
> education, myself included.
>
>
And some who have one, nominally, despite attending only one year out of the
three it usually takes.

Ram

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Biju Chacko]

On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Deepa Mohan  wrote:
> Yes, I realize that there must be many people who have not attended
> university on this list; in other countries, a college education is never
> the "must" that it is here.

There are many Indians on this list who do not have a University
education, myself included.

-- b

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Deepa Mohan]

On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Ramakrishnan Sundaram
wrote:


> A certain double-barreled, birdwatcher who was staying with Deepa recently?
> You can't guess?
>

No, I can't guess, who could this possibly be?

>
> But seriously, Deepa, there are many more people on Silk who dropped out or
> never attended university.
>

You know, Ram, it's very funny...I detested my school education because I
was made to take the "Science stream"  (in fact, I rather think that  much
of my aversion to Maths is because of the way it was taught) but when I went
to college, I totally loved what I was learning...I had a "liberal arts"
education before that term was invented (it was actually referred to by my
relatives as "useless for a job!"...which it probably was.)English
(honours) and Philosophyand enjoyed myself very much indeed,
continuing.. So I sort of "dropped in"...! However, I never ever wanted to
do a doctorate and still don't feel the need.

Yes, I realize that there must be many people who have not attended
university on this list; in other countries, a college education is never
the "must" that it is here.



Deepa.

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Deepa Mohan]

On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:41 AM, Udhay Shankar N  wrote:but
it needs to be noted that the

> lack of a degree adds a layer of annoyance to the process of finding a
> job - I have faced this myself, as I don't have a postgrad degree.
>
>
Yes, I agree...I mentioned 'earning a living' not 'finding a job'. I don't
think that the person would have found a job through the 'regular' channels.

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Ramakrishnan Sundaram]

On 5 October 2010 09:41, Udhay Shankar N  wrote:


> > HmmKeith..there is at least one person on this list, who grew up in
> > urban India, who did not go to college...I learnt this fact only
> yesterday,
>

> Not sure who this is - I can think of several on this list. :)
>
>
A certain double-barreled, birdwatcher who was staying with Deepa recently?
You can't guess?

But seriously, Deepa, there are many more people on Silk who dropped out or
never attended university.

Ram

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Udhay Shankar N]

On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 6:59 AM, Deepa Mohan  wrote:

> HmmKeith..there is at least one person on this list, who grew up in
> urban India, who did not go to college...I learnt this fact only yesterday,
> and I don't know whether it was choice or chance.  I've had long, pleasant,
> and sometimes intense conversations with this person. The lack of a college
> education, to me, has no relevance at all to anything...not the thinking,
> not the  ability to earn the living, or be a good human being.

Not sure who this is - I can think of several on this list. :)

I broadly agree with your point, but it needs to be noted that the
lack of a degree adds a layer of annoyance to the process of finding a
job - I have faced this myself, as I don't have a postgrad degree.

Udhay
-- 
((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[ss]

On Tuesday 05 Oct 2010 6:59:01 am Deepa Mohan wrote:
>  There is now Law, and
> Catering and Fine Arts, and so the list grows.
> 

Deepa. Currently Law, catering and fine arts are tier 3 (where medicine and 
engineering are tier 1). Tier 2 is "Commerce" 

But no child who finishes class 10 in India has an inkling of the type of 
skills and knowledge required to do commerce, law, fine arts or catering. 
However 100% of children leaving class 10 know what is required for engneering 
or medicine.

For those of you who live in India I ask you to perform a simple experiment - 
which should be easy for silk-listers who are also book readers. 

The next time you are in a book shop ask for the  text books for 11th or 12th 
standard, and then compare the material offered wih the requirements for an 
engineering, law or medical entrance exam. You will find nothing that helps a 
child write a law entrance exam. Catering and fine arts are not even considered 
options - except by the elite - who are (like I said earlier) able to reel off 
a list of alternative vocations. Catering has no entrance exams. Only one fine 
arts course that I know of has an entrance exam. And who in India actually 
thinks of nursing, physiotherapy, archaeology, economics as career options? 

Why is it that children who enter 9th standard know about engineering and 
medicine (and nowadays "commerce") but get nothing in their curriculum to 
inform them let alone equip them to follow courses like law, fine arts or 
catering? 

shiv

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Deepa Mohan]

On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 3:44 AM, keith.adam0 wrote:

>
> Howevewr, I have a question for the list...
>
> Given the huge population of India, what is the percentage of young adults
> studying engineering or medicine?  What of the percentage (who can
> quantify?) that can never conceive the idea of going to a school, college,
> or university that offer these courses?
>

I'd disagree with Shiv on "only medical and engineering"...but agree that
professional courses of all kinds are sought after. There is now Law, and
Catering and Fine Arts, and so the list growsbut education in India is
job-oriented and this is the reason for everyone wanting to get a bachelor's
degree that isn't worth the paper it is printed on. Yes, I'd also like to
know some figures...


 I will add a point of my own...most of us, on this list, are the products
of precisely the kind of educational system that we can see so many flaws
in, and don't want to inflict on our children (but, mostly have inflicted,
anyway.) . But...we seem to have turned into thinking adults, with ideas of
our own and the ability to think for ourselves. So...is the educational
system all that bad? I don't like the stress it places on only rote memory,
but rote memory is not an entirely bad thing, as any Indian, faced with a
supermarket assistant who needs a calculator for the simplest reckoning,
will agree.

So...I am still looking for an educational system which is a good blend of
the two "types" of education...the "I teach" and the "you learn" methods.

HmmKeith..there is at least one person on this list, who grew up in
urban India, who did not go to college...I learnt this fact only yesterday,
and I don't know whether it was choice or chance.  I've had long, pleasant,
and sometimes intense conversations with this person. The lack of a college
education, to me, has no relevance at all to anything...not the thinking,
not the  ability to earn the living, or be a good human being.

Deepa.

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[ss]

On Tuesday 05 Oct 2010 3:44:26 am keith.adam0 wrote:
> Given the huge population of India, what is the percentage of young adults
> studying engineering or medicine?  What of the percentage (who can
> quantify?) that can never conceive the idea of going to a school, college,
> or university that offer these courses?
> 

When I was a young man (I joined college in 1972) it was mainly the elite who 
entered college and among them the particular courses that were thought to 
guarantee employment were engineering and medicine and there was intesnse 
competition for those courses. But "competition" in those days was nothing 
compared to today.

India produces 400,000 engineers a year (and 100,000 of them are employable as 
engineers) India produces perhaps 20,000 to 30,000 medical graduates a year. 
If you take the total figure as half a million you have to set that up against 
(I'm guessing) about 18-20 million people reaching the age of 18 every year.

Since those half million engineering and medical seats represent (in the minds 
of Indians) the "top of the heap" - they are aspirational and a school system 
that does not gear a child up for engineering or medicine will be rejected in 
India.

A healthy society requires people other than doctors and engineers and some 
form of education is necessary. Many children figure out what they need to fall 
back on once they do not get that prized engineering or medicine seat (to the 
great disappointment of many parents) . Schools do not guide or equip children 
to become anything else. Colleges do. Children are efectively asked to choose 
between engineering or medicine by the time they are 15 years old and failing 
that they have to start wondering what else it is that they can do. This is 
less true for the elite who are able to reel off a list of lucrative 
alternative vocations. But for a school going child who has no intention of 
becoming a doctor or engineer, it is what we discussed earlier - tough shit.

The elite in India send their kids to fancy schools who charge good money to 
fulfil the requirements of those parents' dreams of an ideal school. The 
children in those schools are exposed to a few dozen of their socio-economic 
peers. It's only by the time a child starts approaching college that he begins 
to see what Indian education is all about. The child finds himself competing 
with perhaps a million others who are all equipped to write an engineering or 
medicine entrance exam and practically nothing else.

shiv

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[keith.adam0]

>
>
> So it is a complex mesh of parental aspiration, reputation of profession
> and
> college, reputation of school, actual content of school curriculum as
> determined by the exam board (like ICSC, CBSE or SSLC) and the entrance
> exam
> requirements  that all interact together to drive our children to suicide.
> Anyone who thinks his child might get away may be in for a rude shock. I
> say
> this as a warning.
>
> shiv
>
>
>
"Education is the inculcation of the incomprehensible into the indifferent
by the incompetent".

John Maynard Keynes


I struggle against the schooling my son recieves, in that he is given
*facts* as opposed to the reasoning that allowed us to arrive at those
facts.  Given that they are only the best theories which fit observations so
far...  Learning is for life and I'd rather he was taught the processes that
allow us to continually learn and assimilate raw data and formulate new
theories and hypothesese.

Alas, time is not on my side and my current circumstances don't allow for
home schooling and my time to him vs school is woefully inadequate.  I can
only hope I can do the best I can.


Howevewr, I have a question for the list...

Given the huge population of India, what is the percentage of young adults
studying engineering or medicine?  What of the percentage (who can
quantify?) that can never conceive the idea of going to a school, college,
or university that offer these courses?

Keith

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Meera]

>>
>
> I showed your mail to my wife Shashi who is also deeply intersted in this. One
> of her pet peeves is why children are rigidly clubbed by age in schools.
>
> I was reminded of a study (in the US I think)  that showed how children born
> in the first half of the year were on average better at sport than children
> born in the second half of the year. The reason was that in a given class,
> little children born earlier in a given year are just that much older and
> physically bigger and stronger than children born later who are just a little
> youner and smaller. When you are 6 years old, 6 or 7 months make a big
> difference.
>
> The same holds true for learning other skills. But the education system is too
> dumb to undertand.
>
My son's school, which is not that mainstream, has such activities.
They have a mixed age group, the kids in nursery do stuff together
during such sessions. Similarly class 1-4 get together, grouped by
house colours, on projects. Recently each house did a project on some
state of India, there was enormous effort put in by each kid over a
month, and each child got to do and learn something; they presented it
all one day, inviting all parents, showing off their creations and
knowledge from weaving to food items to wildlife...I appreciate the
teachers who mentored them..

I think Biju's right, there is a small but definite minority, that is changing.

-Meera

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Thaths]

On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 6:31 AM, ss  wrote:
> I wish your child luck. I presume you have actually seen a child reach std 10
> in India before writing your conclusions about the Indian education system.

Here is a great video from a contemporary school goer's PoV:

http://www.youtube.com/user/killcure#p/u/5/uILmQEiwGs8

I'm glad the educational system has not managed to completely crush
the creativity of some young people.

Thaths
-- 
Marge: Quick, somebody perform CPR!
Homer: Umm (singing) I see a bad moon rising.
Marge: That's CCR!
Homer: Looks like we're in for nasty weather.
Sudhakar Chandra                                    Slacker Without Borders

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Kiran K Karthikeyan]

On 4 October 2010 19:01, ss  wrote:

> On Monday 04 Oct 2010 9:24:43 am Biju Chacko wrote:
>
> > My gut feel is that with increasing numbers of parents who are
> > dissatisfied with the education that they received, simple economics
> > is going to drive development of more "progressive" schools.
> > Unfortunately, as with most so-called progress in India this will
> > probably benefit only us -- the rich, well educated elite.
> > -- b
> >
> >
>
> I wish your child luck. I presume you have actually seen a child reach std
> 10
> in India before writing your conclusions about the Indian education system.
>


You are not required to have the Std. 10 exam certificate (not sure about
12th). I did my 10th in the US and got a certificate from IAU (Indian
Association of Universities) that stated by 10th education in the US was
equivalent to the 10th standard exam. I haven't faced any issues in getting
admission to undergrad or post grad courses in India because of this.

I am assuming a school could just get a blanket certification for all their
students if their system differs from the standard syllabi.

I should mention that competing with other students on the entrance exams of
course is a different matter. I somehow managed because I went through 11th
and 12th in India and the standard crash course for engineering entrance
exams.

Kiran

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[ss]

On Sunday 03 Oct 2010 12:16:50 pm Heather Madrone wrote:
> Oh, the children have friends all right, and some of them are even their 
> own ages. There are plenty of opportunities for children to mix with 
> others their own age: sports activities, park days, theatre programs, 
> choir, dance, scouting, church, etc.
> 

I showed your mail to my wife Shashi who is also deeply intersted in this. One 
of her pet peeves is why children are rigidly clubbed by age in schools. 

I was reminded of a study (in the US I think)  that showed how children born 
in the first half of the year were on average better at sport than children 
born in the second half of the year. The reason was that in a given class, 
little children born earlier in a given year are just that much older and 
physically bigger and stronger than children born later who are just a little 
youner and smaller. When you are 6 years old, 6 or 7 months make a big 
difference. 

The same holds true for learning other skills. But the education system is too 
dumb to undertand.

shiv

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[ss]

On Monday 04 Oct 2010 9:24:43 am Biju Chacko wrote:

> My gut feel is that with increasing numbers of parents who are
> dissatisfied with the education that they received, simple economics
> is going to drive development of more "progressive" schools.
> Unfortunately, as with most so-called progress in India this will
> probably benefit only us -- the rich, well educated elite.
> -- b
> 
> 

I wish your child luck. I presume you have actually seen a child reach std 10 
in India before writing your conclusions about the Indian education system. I 
hope your feelings are true for the sake of children in india. But i see 
nothing that changes my view. The rich elite don't escape. They only hack the 
system as best they can. The others don't have the financial clout to do that. 
And schools can't help.

It gets worse in college. 

shiv

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[ss]

On Monday 04 Oct 2010 9:34:33 am Deepa Mohan wrote:
> Recently, I have become involved in "volunteer birding"...volunteers go on
> birdwatching trip with schoolchildren, to introduce them to the natural
> world all around them (I don't concentrate only on the birds!)...and I have
> found that several schools for the alleged "underprivileged" children,
> provide so many facilities for them that I don't want to tag the children
> with the "underprivileged" appellation at all! I was so impressed with the
> children, and the teachers, of Parikrama Foundation, and Ananya in
> Bellandur.
> 

By the time a child reaches std 8 in India about 60 to 90% of parents of 
children in that class are usually demanding that the school ensures "good 
performance" in maths and science so that the child can become a doctor or 
engineer.(in IIT of course)  The humanities get forgotten, and sports 
gradually takes a back seat.

By 9th standard about half a typical school class is alrady attending "extra 
classes" between 6 and 8 AM and later 6 and 9 PM so that the child can perform 
well in the IIT, AIEEE or medical entrance exams.  The remaining children - 
whose parents imagine that that their child should have a "normal" life do not 
do this. Most children muddle through till the 10th std. After 10 of course 
are 11th and 12. That is when all pretence of education for anything other 
than engineering or medicine are given up.  Since half the class are already 
attending extra coaching the teacher can skim through complex trigonometry and 
calculus and the parents who do not send their child for extra classes might 
find that their child is unable to cope. It is another matter that the children 
who are attendng classes from 6 AM to 8 PM every day are also going insane 
separately. Everyone is trying to reach for the insane goal of knowing what 
frist eyar engineering and medicine students know - becasue that is what 
"entrance exams" demand. if the school can't offer this - the school loses out 
and does not attract kids. 

I will try and draw a grahical representation of my thoughts on this, (I hope 
it works)

There are two lines of dashes below and a line of asterisks below that. Both 
lines are limited by < and >. The line of dashes on the left represents school 
knowlegde up to std 12 and the one to its right is college knowledge imparted 
in he first year. One is supposed to take over where the other left off (in 
theory). In practice te school is forced to attempt to teach the child the 
knowldge encompassd by the line of asterisks because college entrance exams in 
India go far beyond school knowledge. Stupid but true. 

<12th std><--1st year med/engg->


What happens is that schools do not stop at coaching for the 12th std 
curriculum. They force children to "move ahead" and learn the 1st year college 
requrements because entrance exams demand that. Unless school children do well 
in the entrance exams the schools cannot advertise themselves as "successful"

So it is a complex mesh of parental aspiration, reputation of profession and 
college, reputation of school, actual content of school curriculum as 
determined by the exam board (like ICSC, CBSE or SSLC) and the entrance exam 
requirements  that all interact together to drive our children to suicide. 
Anyone who thinks his child might get away may be in for a rude shock. I say 
this as a warning.

shiv

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Deepa Mohan]

On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 9:24 AM, Biju Chacko  wrote:

> My gut feel is that with increasing numbers of parents who are
> dissatisfied with the education that they received, simple economics
> is going to drive development of more "progressive" schools.
> Unfortunately, as with most so-called progress in India this will
> probably benefit only us -- the rich, well educated elite.
>
>
I am happy to differ on this...but of course, only in a limited scenario.

Recently, I have become involved in "volunteer birding"...volunteers go on
birdwatching trip with schoolchildren, to introduce them to the natural
world all around them (I don't concentrate only on the birds!)...and I have
found that several schools for the alleged "underprivileged" children,
provide so many facilities for them that I don't want to tag the children
with the "underprivileged" appellation at all! I was so impressed with the
children, and the teachers, of Parikrama Foundation, and Ananya in
Bellandur.

But I am saying "limited" because only schools in the urban areas that seem
to be doing such good work for economically backward (is there no way of
saying "poor" now?) children...in the villages...the pathetic schools remain
apathetic.

Deepa.

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Biju Chacko]

On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:55 PM, ss  wrote:
> If you send your child to school in India now - you are essentially consigning
> him (or her) to an education system that will assume he wants to be a doctor
> or an engineer. Neither teachers, nor parents, nor school managements, nor the
> politicians know anything different.

I disagree on two points. First, the education system does not assume
your child wants to be a doctor or an engineer. It assumes that your
child wants to pass all the exams needed to get the degree certificate
that proves he or she is a doctor or engineer. Any engineering/medial
knowledge that she picks up along the way would be purely accidental.
In any case, an engineering degree nowadays is just a rest stop in the
road to an MBA.

Secondly, I am cautiously optimistic about schools improving. When
evaluating schools for my son last year, I realised that while the
vast majority of schools are the worst kind of rote-learning crammer
factories, there is a small but increasing number of schools that are
trying to actually provide an education.

I was especially impressed with the school that silk-lurker Jessica's
daughter attends. It was too far away to send my son to, but the
school that I finally decided on also seems to be fairly good. While
far less unorthodox than my first choice, it too seems to be making an
attempt to break out of the exam result focused mould of the
traditional schools in Bangalore.

My gut feel is that with increasing numbers of parents who are
dissatisfied with the education that they received, simple economics
is going to drive development of more "progressive" schools.
Unfortunately, as with most so-called progress in India this will
probably benefit only us -- the rich, well educated elite.

-- b

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[ss]

On Sunday 03 Oct 2010 12:16:50 pm Heather Madrone wrote:
> We started homeschooling as an experiment because my oldest daughter did 
> not seem ready for kindergarten at age 4.5. After about 3 weeks, we were 
> sold on the value of it, and we've never really looked back.  After 17 
> years, it seems like it's schools that are the radical experiment. 
> Homeschooling is a return to our primate roots, to the way humans have 
> always reared their young in the heart of the family and the community. 
> It makes sense in all sorts of ways.
> 

Thanks for sharing.

But it appears that where you live there is a cooperative community of 
homeschoolers who had a homeschooling day where you could get information. 
That is a thousand leagues ahead of India. Are these common where you live and 
how is inofrmation shared.

the fact that it can be done deserves to be known - but remains practically 
unknown in India.

shiv

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Heather Madrone]

On 9/30/10 7:22 PM September 30, 2010, Deepa Mohan wrote:
Heather, I'd like to hear more about your experiences with 
home-schooling, because I have always been afraid that homeschooling a 
child (in India)  would mean lack of contact with  the child's peer 
group. 


Yes, if you homeschool your children, they do not have the experience of 
being part of a huge pack of children the same age. Instead, they have 
to live in a mixed-age community, as children throughout most of human 
history have lived. This is not a limitation of homeschooling; this is a 
benefit.


Oh, the children have friends all right, and some of them are even their 
own ages. There are plenty of opportunities for children to mix with 
others their own age: sports activities, park days, theatre programs, 
choir, dance, scouting, church, etc. At our current homeschooling park 
day, there just happens to be a group of about 30 boys my sons' ages. 
This actually has a downside, as some of the negatives of peer 
socialization have emerged and must be handled both by the children and 
by their parents.


The children also have plenty of opportunities to mix with people of all 
ages, including their own siblings and grandparents. It's good for 
children to spend time with older and younger children, to learn from 
the ones just ahead of them developmentally and to help care for the 
younger ones. My children, particularly the fledgling adults, also 
benefit greatly from their close relationships with older adults (and by 
"older" I mean as old as 102).
In the United States, children are largely segregated from old people, 
to the great detriment of both groups.


When we first started homeschooling, we attended a homeschooling day at 
the local skating rink. A 15-year-old girl spotted us, introduced 
herself, and took my then-4.5-year-old daughter under her wing. This was 
my first introduction to the homeschooling style of mixed-age 
socialization. Having attended school, I marveled at the kindness of 
this teenage girl. In truth, though, she had never learned that she was 
supposed to be friends only with people exactly her own age. Instead, 
she was open to everyone around her, including adults.


I see this openness working in my children's favor all the time, 
especially as they move into adulthood. My daughters have extremely 
positive relationships with all of their professors, treating them both 
as human beings and as valuable educational resources. They have also 
done well in their first forays into the work place, and in their 
volunteer work. They are already at ease with adults and the adult 
world, and so their transition seems gentler.


Of course, I did not even know that such an alternative was available 
to me, but even if I'd known it, I would still have chosen school as I 
feel that a child learns a lot more than just lessons at school...and 
my daughter's formed lifelong friendships from the schools she went to 
as she was growing up.


My daughters also have lifelong friendships with people they met while 
they were growing up. Since they didn't attend school, these friends are 
people they met in activities they enjoyed. My oldest daughter met her 
best friend in a theatre activity when they were 4 and they have 
remained friends for 18 years. Her sister met her best friend at a 
homeschooling event when she was 2. Both of them are serious musicians. 
When they get together, they have long conversations illustrated by 
passages on violin and piano.


Children learn more than lessons if they grow up outside of school, too. 
Life is the great teacher.


We started homeschooling as an experiment because my oldest daughter did 
not seem ready for kindergarten at age 4.5. After about 3 weeks, we were 
sold on the value of it, and we've never really looked back.  After 17 
years, it seems like it's schools that are the radical experiment. 
Homeschooling is a return to our primate roots, to the way humans have 
always reared their young in the heart of the family and the community. 
It makes sense in all sorts of ways.


--
Heather Madrone  (heat...@madrone.com)  http://www.madrone.com
http://www.sunsplinter.blogspot.com

I'd love to change the world, but they won't give me access to the source code.

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[ss]

On Saturday 02 Oct 2010 8:57:28 am Deepa Mohan wrote:

> Well, then, Shiv, how do you feel about the way your children got educated?
> Did you consider the home-schooling option? (I remember that Pooja's first
> school was CALLED something like Home School?) Did you know that the option
> existed?

No. The option did not exist. I believe education in India is going from bad 
to worse - with the education system responding to popular demand for 
"education" that promises to make a child either a doctor or an engineer - 
with those two professions being considered the best for people to "be 
employed" (by some nameless entity who is not given a second thought who is 
actually tasked with creating that employment)

The British in India perturbed Indian society enough to make "traditional 
means of living" ineffective, but they offered an alternative to some. The 
"forward castes" - primarily Brahmins who traditionally had no vocational 
skills or family businessses to fall back upon were among the first off the 
mark 
to acquire a "British (English) education" that offered them opeining in 
"government service" - as clerks or accountants. The education system that was 
imported to India was the very system invented in Britain to recruit people in 
Britain to work in  the colonies. But the massive loss of British manpower in 
World War I made it necessary to recruit more and more Indians. And goverment 
jobs were considered safe and lucrative. In those days (turn of the 20th 
century) it was fine to have a BA.

Gradually the thrust of "government jobs" moved to technical fields like 
engneering and medicine. Your generation Deepa (and mine) turned out to be the 
much admired icons of success that modern India seeks to emulate at any cost. 
We made the doctors and engineers that everyone so admires. The Indian 
education syetem has responded to that by skewing the system to favor training 
children to try and enter medical or engineering college to the detriment of 
every other vocation in India. 

If you send your child to school in India now - you are essentially consigning 
him (or her) to an education system that will assume he wants to be a doctor 
or an engineer. Neither teachers, nor parents, nor school managements, nor the 
politicians know anything different. There is no escape. Failure in life is not 
becoming a doctor or an engineer. If things could get more stupid than this I 
would like to learn about it Hence my interest in any alternative system or 
idea in education.

> 
> > If some are bored - tough shit.
> 
> What is this "tough shit" that everyone talks about? You are  a
> gastroenterologisttell me...if it is constipated output...why is it
> considered worse than the ordinary stuff?

Well ordinary shit is considered bad. Tough shit is worse. If neither of these 
strikes you as being extraordinarliy bad I just wonder what prompted you to 
want to take a discussion of home schooling to private email. Did you believe 
that the discussion would be worse than talking about shit of the ordinary or 
tough variety? 

shiv

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Suresh Ramasubramanian]

Deepa Mohan [02/10/10 08:57 +0530]:

Well, then, Shiv, how do you feel about the way your children got educated?
Did you consider the home-schooling option? (I remember that Pooja's first
school was CALLED something like Home School?) Did you know that the option
existed?


That was my old school too in Kindergarten - but that was a regular school
with anglo indian teachers, in basavangudi

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Deepa Mohan]

On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 8:49 AM, ss  wrote:

Please. This is a list. Many of us may be interested and if it is not
> private
> info why create the impression that "others may be bored"
>


Well, then, Shiv, how do you feel about the way your children got educated?
Did you consider the home-schooling option? (I remember that Pooja's first
school was CALLED something like Home School?) Did you know that the option
existed?


>
> If some are bored - tough shit.
>

What is this "tough shit" that everyone talks about? You are  a
gastroenterologisttell me...if it is constipated output...why is it
considered worse than the ordinary stuff?

Deepa.

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[ss]

On Friday 01 Oct 2010 7:52:04 am Deepa Mohan wrote:
> Perhaps you could write to me off list, I don't want to bore
> those-who-are-not-interested!
> 
Please. This is a list. Many of us may be interested and if it is not private 
info why create the impression that "others may be bored"

If some are bored - tough shit. Many will be fascinated. And deeply 
interested.

shiv

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Deepa Mohan]

On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Heather Madrone wrote:

having homeschooled two to adulthood (with two more still homeschooling), I
can now safely say that there's something in learning outside the school
system that enables children to become their own best teachers.

>
> My daughters are both in college now, and I am often struck by how much
> better their attitude is than mine was at their age. I was an excellent
> student, but I didn't have their drive to make the most out of my education
> nor did I have their sense of ownership of and responsibility for my
> education.
>
> Education has never been done *to* them; it's always been done *by* them.
>

What a perceptive remark that last sentence is.  My school education was,
indeed, done to me...it was only in college that I refused to study medicine
as my parents wanted me to do, and took up English and philosophy, and loved
it!

Heather, I'd like to hear more about your experiences with home-schooling,
because I have always been afraid that homeschooling a child (in India)
would mean lack of contact with  the child's peer group. Of course, I did
not even know that such an alternative was available to me, but even if I'd
known it, I would still have chosen school as I feel that a child learns a
lot more than just lessons at school...and my daughter's formed lifelong
friendships from the schools she went to as she was growing up.

Perhaps you could write to me off list, I don't want to bore
those-who-are-not-interested!

Deepa.

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Heather Madrone]

On 9/30/10 1:14 AM September 30, 2010, ss wrote:

On Thursday 30 Sep 2010 10:25:26 am Meera wrote:
   

"Children need good schools if they are to learn properly."
 

Children need good teachers. never mind the school.
   

Children learn naturally; it's what they do best.

Teachers and schools are all well enough in their place, but, having 
homeschooled two to adulthood (with two more still homeschooling), I can 
now safely say that there's something in learning outside the school 
system that enables children to become their own best teachers.


My daughters are both in college now, and I am often struck by how much 
better their attitude is than mine was at their age. I was an excellent 
student, but I didn't have their drive to make the most out of my 
education nor did I have their sense of ownership of and responsibility 
for my education.


Education has never been done *to* them; it's always been done *by* them.

--
Heather Madrone  (heat...@madrone.com)  http://www.madrone.com
http://www.sunsplinter.blogspot.com

I'd love to change the world, but they won't give me access to the source code.

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Indrajit Gupta]

Can't! Won't! Shan't! Don't!Pass the word along the lineSomebody's pack has 
slid from his back
Ónly wish that it was mine!
Somebody's load has tipped off in the road-
Cheer for a halt and a row!
Urr! Yarrh! Grr! Arrh!
Somebody's catching it now!

Read me at:

--- On Wed, 29/9/10, Udhay Shankar N  wrote:

From: Udhay Shankar N 
Subject: Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications
To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
Date: Wednesday, 29 September, 2010, 7:01

[meta-comment: please avoid top-posting]

On 28-Sep-10 9:56 PM, Deepa Mohan wrote:

> I did enjoy this piece, as I've done others...but let me drift the
> thread straightaway, with something that disturbs me lately. To
> appreciate these articles, one has to be very conversant with a lot of
> extremely precise  tems and phrases (eg. "recursive", "embedded
> defaults" instead of "preconceptions", and so on.)

Why would this disturb you? Any field has its jargon, and precision is
required in order to communicate ideas without confusion.

> When someone uses English with this level of skill, and expresses
> original ideas, we applaud them as being very smart...what about others,
> who may have the same original ideas, and are not able to express
> themselves thus?

The way I like to put it: "interestingness" or "thought-provokingness"
of a person or thesis has 3 dimensions:

* intellectual depth
* erudition - in this context, an awareness of the related work in its
own and related fields
* the ability to be articulate - which implies both conveying the core
ideas; and doing so in a manner that sparks interest in the reader.

Missing out on any of the dimensions implies a corresponding loss of
interestingness.

> Hmm...I am not being very articulate myself...I guess I
> am getting bothered (another thread, present continuous tense!) by the
> elitism of English usage.
> 
> Does this make sense to anyone else?

No.

That is, I understand that you have a bee in your bonnet. But I don't
understand why.

Udhay
-- 
((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))




  

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Kiran K Karthikeyan]

On 28 September 2010 11:51, Udhay Shankar N  wrote:

> The line that had most resonance for me: "Every technology is biased by
> its embedded defaults: what does it assume?"
>
> Udhay
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/magazine/19FOB-WWLN-Kelly-t.html
>
Embedded defaults goes both ways.

Asking the front desk to "Wake me up at 5.30 tomorrow" as
against configuring your mobile phone to do the same thing is somehow a
vastly complicated task for some precisely because of embedded defaults in
the former i.e. the time zone, 12 hour format as against 24, and of course
what "tomorrow" means (the front desk will call you at the 5.30 you meant
even if you made the request at 12.01 AM).

What I've always felt is the key to understanding and embracing a new
technology is an appreciation of its complexity, which through embedded
defaults, abstractions, or through a better interaction model is made
transparent/easier to the user.

While not an exact parallel, it is because of the above that I feel
knowledge of any technology (especially something like C++) never becomes
economically useless. What is required is the agility in applying that
knowlege to newer technology contexts.

Kiran

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[ss]

On Thursday 30 Sep 2010 10:25:26 am Meera wrote:
> "Children need good schools if they are to learn properly."
> 
Children need good teachers. never mind the school. 

shiv

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Meera]

>> I did enjoy this piece, as I've done others...but let me drift the
>> thread straightaway, with something that disturbs me lately. To
>> appreciate these articles, one has to be very conversant with a lot of
>> extremely precise  tems and phrases (eg. "recursive", "embedded
>> defaults" instead of "preconceptions", and so on.)
>
> Why would this disturb you? Any field has its jargon, and precision is
> required in order to communicate ideas without confusion.
>
>> When someone uses English with this level of skill, and expresses
>> original ideas, we applaud them as being very smart...what about others,
>> who may have the same original ideas, and are not able to express
>> themselves thus?
>
> The way I like to put it: "interestingness" or "thought-provokingness"
> of a person or thesis has 3 dimensions:
>
> * intellectual depth
> * erudition - in this context, an awareness of the related work in its
> own and related fields
> * the ability to be articulate - which implies both conveying the core
> ideas; and doing so in a manner that sparks interest in the reader.
>

I liked the article, but I really didn't get the phrase "embedded
defaults". This is not a question of jargon, NYT article is not meant
for niche subject scholars. One can be articulate without being
turgid.
However the Flesch Reading ease is 64/100 for this article (not bad at
all) and Flesch Kincaid grade level is 7.7 (I guess applicable to
everybody on this list)
(Deepa, it's an American standard, yet again)
In case you didn't know about this, check: http://www.plainenglish.co.uk
"High-quality learning environments are a necessary precondition for
facilitation and enhancement of the ongoing learning process."
in other words "Children need good schools if they are to learn properly."

-Meera

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Udhay Shankar N]

[meta-comment: please avoid top-posting]

On 28-Sep-10 9:56 PM, Deepa Mohan wrote:

> I did enjoy this piece, as I've done others...but let me drift the
> thread straightaway, with something that disturbs me lately. To
> appreciate these articles, one has to be very conversant with a lot of
> extremely precise  tems and phrases (eg. "recursive", "embedded
> defaults" instead of "preconceptions", and so on.)

Why would this disturb you? Any field has its jargon, and precision is
required in order to communicate ideas without confusion.

> When someone uses English with this level of skill, and expresses
> original ideas, we applaud them as being very smart...what about others,
> who may have the same original ideas, and are not able to express
> themselves thus?

The way I like to put it: "interestingness" or "thought-provokingness"
of a person or thesis has 3 dimensions:

* intellectual depth
* erudition - in this context, an awareness of the related work in its
own and related fields
* the ability to be articulate - which implies both conveying the core
ideas; and doing so in a manner that sparks interest in the reader.

Missing out on any of the dimensions implies a corresponding loss of
interestingness.

> Hmm...I am not being very articulate myself...I guess I
> am getting bothered (another thread, present continuous tense!) by the
> elitism of English usage.
> 
> Does this make sense to anyone else?

No.

That is, I understand that you have a bee in your bonnet. But I don't
understand why.

Udhay
-- 
((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay]

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Deepa Mohan  wrote:

> When someone uses English with this level of skill, and expresses original
> ideas, we applaud them as being very smart...what about others, who may have
> the same original ideas, and are not able to express themselves thus?
> Hmm...I am not being very articulate myself...I guess I am getting bothered
> (another thread, present continuous tense!) by the elitism of English
> usage.

Is that not sometimes a factor of the chosen specialization ? For
example specialists in diverse fields have their own lexicon or,
stylized way of using English (or, any other language for that matter)
as opposed to generalists who may want to keep things to a different
tack.

-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay

Re: [silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Deepa Mohan]

Ah, Silk is alive. I thought I'd been booted out or something.

I did enjoy this piece, as I've done others...but let me drift the thread
straightaway, with something that disturbs me lately. To appreciate these
articles, one has to be very conversant with a lot of extremely precise
tems and phrases (eg. "recursive", "embedded defaults" instead of
"preconceptions", and so on.)

When someone uses English with this level of skill, and expresses original
ideas, we applaud them as being very smart...what about others, who may have
the same original ideas, and are not able to express themselves thus?
Hmm...I am not being very articulate myself...I guess I am getting bothered
(another thread, present continuous tense!) by the elitism of English
usage.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Deepa.


On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Udhay Shankar N  wrote:

> Kevin Kelly is an extremely smart guy whose writing is generally both
> instructive and thought-provoking. In a nice recursive loop, this piece
> is, at more than one level, an instructive and thought-provoking one on
> how to be instructive and thought-provoking. Nice.
>
> The line that had most resonance for me: "Every technology is biased by
> its embedded defaults: what does it assume?"
>
> Udhay
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/magazine/19FOB-WWLN-Kelly-t.html
>
> Achieving Techno-Literacy
> By KEVIN KELLY
> Published: September 16, 2010
>
> This past year my wife and I home-schooled our eighth-grade son. One
> school day, he and I decided we would make fire the old way — out of
> nothing but plant materials and our own hustle. Our son watched a
> seemingly endless series of instructional survival videos on YouTube as
> part of his research. He chose the bow method based on our physics class
> about friction. He then constructed a bow from a branch in the woods,
> carved a stick for the spindle and added a fiber string. It was mighty
> tough going. We spent hours refining the apparatus. He was surprised by
> the enormous amount of bodily energy required to focus onto a very small
> spot, and how a minuscule, nearly invisible bit of fuel, once sparked,
> can quickly amplify into a flame and then a fire. Chemistry, physics,
> history and gym all in one lesson. And, man, when you are 13 years old
> and Prometheus, it’s exhilarating!
> The Education Issue
>
> One day our student would dissect and diagram the inside organs of
> flowers; the next he’d write short stories or poems and then revise
> them; and the next day we’d solve logic problems with algebra, then he’d
> work on plans for a chicken coop and maybe we’d do a field trip to a car
> factory. He also went through eighth-grade textbooks in history,
> grammar, geometry and the like. This type of home-schooling is really
> nothing special. Our son was merely one of more than a million students
> home-schooled in the United States last year. Our reasons for
> home-schooling were not uncommon, either. We wanted to create an ideal
> learning environment. For the previous seven years, our son was enrolled
> in challenging schools. His grades were excellent, but the amount of
> homework was grinding him down. The intense high school he was planning
> to attend promised even more work. He asked if he could be home-schooled
> for his last year before high school, and by a quirk of life, this was a
> year our schedules would permit our role as home-school teachers.
>
> Now that the year is done, I am struck that the fancy technology
> supposedly crucial to an up-to-the-minute education was not a major
> factor in its success. Of course, technology in the broadest sense was
> everywhere in our classroom. There was an inexpensive microscope on the
> kitchen table and an old digital camera to record experiments. There was
> a PC always on for research. Our son was also a big user of online
> tutorials. Of particular note is Khan Academy, which offers nearly 1,600
> short high-quality tutorials on algebra, chemistry, history, economics
> and other subjects — all created by one guy, and all free. The Internet
> was also essential for my wife and me as we researched the best
> textbooks, the best projects, the best approaches.
>
> But the computer was only one tool of many. Technology helped us learn,
> but it was not the medium of learning. It was summoned when needed.
> Technology is strange that way. Education, at least in the K-12 range,
> is more about child rearing than knowledge acquisition. And since child
> rearing is primarily about forming character, instilling values and
> cultivating habits, it may be the last area to be directly augmented by
> technology.
>
> Even so, as technology floods the rest of our lives, one of the chief
> habits a student needs to acquire is technological literacy — and we
> made sure it was part of our curriculum. By technological literacy, I
> mean the latest in a series of proficiencies children should accumulate
> in school. Students begin with mastering the alphab

[silk] Techno-literacy and its implications

[Udhay Shankar N]

Kevin Kelly is an extremely smart guy whose writing is generally both
instructive and thought-provoking. In a nice recursive loop, this piece
is, at more than one level, an instructive and thought-provoking one on
how to be instructive and thought-provoking. Nice.

The line that had most resonance for me: "Every technology is biased by
its embedded defaults: what does it assume?"

Udhay

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/magazine/19FOB-WWLN-Kelly-t.html

Achieving Techno-Literacy
By KEVIN KELLY
Published: September 16, 2010

This past year my wife and I home-schooled our eighth-grade son. One
school day, he and I decided we would make fire the old way — out of
nothing but plant materials and our own hustle. Our son watched a
seemingly endless series of instructional survival videos on YouTube as
part of his research. He chose the bow method based on our physics class
about friction. He then constructed a bow from a branch in the woods,
carved a stick for the spindle and added a fiber string. It was mighty
tough going. We spent hours refining the apparatus. He was surprised by
the enormous amount of bodily energy required to focus onto a very small
spot, and how a minuscule, nearly invisible bit of fuel, once sparked,
can quickly amplify into a flame and then a fire. Chemistry, physics,
history and gym all in one lesson. And, man, when you are 13 years old
and Prometheus, it’s exhilarating!
The Education Issue

One day our student would dissect and diagram the inside organs of
flowers; the next he’d write short stories or poems and then revise
them; and the next day we’d solve logic problems with algebra, then he’d
work on plans for a chicken coop and maybe we’d do a field trip to a car
factory. He also went through eighth-grade textbooks in history,
grammar, geometry and the like. This type of home-schooling is really
nothing special. Our son was merely one of more than a million students
home-schooled in the United States last year. Our reasons for
home-schooling were not uncommon, either. We wanted to create an ideal
learning environment. For the previous seven years, our son was enrolled
in challenging schools. His grades were excellent, but the amount of
homework was grinding him down. The intense high school he was planning
to attend promised even more work. He asked if he could be home-schooled
for his last year before high school, and by a quirk of life, this was a
year our schedules would permit our role as home-school teachers.

Now that the year is done, I am struck that the fancy technology
supposedly crucial to an up-to-the-minute education was not a major
factor in its success. Of course, technology in the broadest sense was
everywhere in our classroom. There was an inexpensive microscope on the
kitchen table and an old digital camera to record experiments. There was
a PC always on for research. Our son was also a big user of online
tutorials. Of particular note is Khan Academy, which offers nearly 1,600
short high-quality tutorials on algebra, chemistry, history, economics
and other subjects — all created by one guy, and all free. The Internet
was also essential for my wife and me as we researched the best
textbooks, the best projects, the best approaches.

But the computer was only one tool of many. Technology helped us learn,
but it was not the medium of learning. It was summoned when needed.
Technology is strange that way. Education, at least in the K-12 range,
is more about child rearing than knowledge acquisition. And since child
rearing is primarily about forming character, instilling values and
cultivating habits, it may be the last area to be directly augmented by
technology.

Even so, as technology floods the rest of our lives, one of the chief
habits a student needs to acquire is technological literacy — and we
made sure it was part of our curriculum. By technological literacy, I
mean the latest in a series of proficiencies children should accumulate
in school. Students begin with mastering the alphabet and numbers, then
transition into critical thinking, logic and absorption of the
scientific method. Technological literacy is something different:
proficiency with the larger system of our invented world. It is close to
an intuitive sense of how you add up, or parse, the manufactured realm.
We don’t need expertise with every invention; that is not only
impossible, it’s not very useful. Rather, we need to be literate in the
complexities of technology in general, as if it were a second nature.

Technology will change faster than we can teach it. My son studied the
popular programming language C++ in his home-school year; that knowledge
could be economically useless soon. The accelerating pace of technology
means his eventual adult career does not exist yet. Of course it won’t
be taught in school. But technological smartness can be. Here is the
kind of literacy that we tried to impart:

• Every new technology will bite back. The more powerful its gifts, the
more powerfully it can be abu