Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
On Jan 23, 2008 5:41 PM, Rishab Aiyer Ghosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...] > oh, what thread creep. welcome to silk. And my whole life is a thread drift that'll beat silk hands down :-) Cheeni
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
On Tue, 2008-01-22 at 17:10 -0800, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: > People with MBAs from far better schools than mine, who actually do > practice management (I forgot most of mine already) assure me that Maslow's > hierarchy is a throwback to the 50s, debunked / replaced by better theories > many times over etc. sure, in the details, but the basic principle that people usually tend to meet basic needs before they meet less basic ones, and that the basic->less basic ordering is generally similar for all people, is reasonable. there's even evidence from evolutionary biology for this - e.g. starvation leads to a longer life as the body redirects the limited available energy to the more basic needs of survival from the less basic needs of reproduction. oh, what thread creep. welcome to silk.
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
Rishab Aiyer Ghosh [23/01/08 01:41 +0100]: On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 10:30 +0530, shiv sastry wrote: There is no money in creativity in India. If creativity brings in the moolah, the artists will come in. [maslow's hierarchy of needs based explanation] People with MBAs from far better schools than mine, who actually do practice management (I forgot most of mine already) assure me that Maslow's hierarchy is a throwback to the 50s, debunked / replaced by better theories many times over etc. It is still simple and elegant enough for me to like it a lot. Glad to see I'm not alone srs
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 11:11 +0530, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote: > Isn't it equally de rigueur for them to stop dancing once they're older > and/or on the verge of getting married, because it's not respectable for > marriageable and married young women to be dancing? ... unless they're really good and famous and can earn significant amounts of money... all of which makes perfect economic sense. indian society certainly values art, but there isn't enough material wealth going around to allow all the people who value art to actually earn a decent living out of it, so once they need to earn a living all but the best have to stop their art.
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 10:40 +0530, Charles Haynes wrote: > I'm not so sure - see "patronage" above. I think it requires a culture > that appreciate and values art. and affords. there's lots of patronage of indian art, of course. at the rich, urban level, concerts and art galleries and so forth are all sponsored by big companies, foundations and other private and public wealth. at the poorer, rural level, village musicians are paid to perform at festive occasions. but there are lots of people in india, and patronage only works for a small minority, as a form of spending of surplus wealth.
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
On Mon, 2008-01-14 at 10:30 +0530, shiv sastry wrote:
> There is no money in creativity in India. If creativity brings in the moolah,
> the artists will come in.
i don't see this as being different from europe and the US. i don't see
many US or european artists (or open source programmers) suffering from
a lack of safety or physiological needs (to use maslow's language [1]),
which is a pretty real risk for an ordinary indian urban professional's
kid (let alone someone not as well off in india) who decides not to get
a "real job".
> India's open source boom will come when the early whiz kids of the
Infotech
> generation retire after fulfilling their Hindu duties and reach the sannyasa
> stage. They will then become productive in contributing to open source.
even when open source in europe and the US was less "professionalised"
than it is now, the FLOSS survey [2] found that people who were married
and/or had children and were _still_ floss developers had a healthy
income and earned their living from their floss work. to use the hindu
terminology, US and european open source developers are either:
- brahmacharis (students), where they participate in open source
development as part of their brahmachari training (learning and
developing new skills is the #1 cited motivation for participation [3]); -
- grihastas ("home-makers"), where they have partners / are married /
have children and participate in open source development but earn a
living from it
- sannyasis ("saints") like richard stallman, who've gone beyond meeting
their lower level maslow needs and are only interested in
self-actualisation.
-rishab
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
2. http://flossproject.org/report/Final4.htm
3. http://flosspols.org/deliverables/D10HTML/FLOSSPOLS-D10-skills%
20survey_interim_report-revision-FINAL.html
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
On Jan 14, 2008 1:50 PM, Abhijit Menon-Sen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > At 2008-01-14 13:28:08 +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > I've noticed that, Auroville aside, there seems to be almost no studio > > pottery here either. Am I missing something? There's some handwork in > > terra cotta, and there's plenty of production pottery, but no real > > studio pottery. Why do you think that is? > > There's a fair bit in Delhi, actually. Yet another reason I need to visit Delhi. I've heard from a lot of people that there's a much larger art scene in Delhi (and to a lesser extent Mumbai and Kolkata) than there is in the south. We did visit one gallery while in Kolkata that had some interesting modern paintings, including one we considered briefly (but it was too large for our current place and we aren't sure how long we'll be in it.) -- Charles
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
At 2008-01-14 13:28:08 +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I've noticed that, Auroville aside, there seems to be almost no studio > pottery here either. Am I missing something? There's some handwork in > terra cotta, and there's plenty of production pottery, but no real > studio pottery. Why do you think that is? There's a fair bit in Delhi, actually. I have a friend who did quite a lot of studio pottery, and had friends who did more (but these days she's a physicist instead). http://www.delhibluepotterytrust.com Also, there are some truly innovative, original artists who find it very hard to earn a living. My mother bought a sculpture from a young tribal artist from Chhattisgarh at an exhibition in Delhi some years ago. We like it very much, but it was almost the first sale he'd ever made. -- ams
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
On Jan 14, 2008 1:27 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I think Dakshinachitra is slicha better than Cholamandal artist's > > village. DC is as much about history & conservation as it is about art. > Or a trip around madras - kanchipuram for example, would be an idea, if you > count hand woven sarees as art. Well, who are the best modern Saree artists, and what works of theirs are the classics that I should be familiar with? -- Charles
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
On Jan 14, 2008 1:09 PM, Chandrachoodan Gopalakrishnan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think Dakshinachitra is slicha better than Cholamandal artist's village. > DC is as much about history & conservation as it is about art. I've been to DC, and I enjoyed it, but as you say DC is not so much about art. Though it was a great joy to be able to put my hands on some clay on a wheel there. I miss working with clay. I've noticed that, Auroville aside, there seems to be almost no studio pottery here either. Am I missing something? There's some handwork in terra cotta, and there's plenty of production pottery, but no real studio pottery. Why do you think that is? -- Charles
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
> I think Dakshinachitra is slicha better than Cholamandal artist's > village. DC is as much about history & conservation as it is about art. Or a trip around madras - kanchipuram for example, would be an idea, if you count hand woven sarees as art.
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
On Jan 14, 2008 12:59 PM, Charles Haynes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That sounds great, thanks! We did visit the artists colony just south > of Chennai - Cholamandal, and I was somewhat underwhelmed, though > walking around in the neighborhood and seeing all the sculpture in > peoples's yards was very nice. > > -- Charles > I think Dakshinachitra is slicha better than Cholamandal artist's village. DC is as much about history & conservation as it is about art. C -- http://www.flickr.com/photos/ravages http://www.linkedin.com/in/ravages http://www.selectiveamnesia.org/ +91-9884467463
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
On Jan 14, 2008 11:22 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > http://flickr.com/photos/haynes/311638848/ . I've been looking for > > original art here and been surprised at just how hard it is to find! I > > consider myself one of those "middle level" patrons of the arts. > > Poompuhar / Chennai Sangamam are good places in Madras, as Chandrachoodan > mentioned. > > Why don't you take the train over for a quick trip? [its not worth flying > ATR prop planes and standing an hour ++ in line waiting for security at > either airport] > > Some of us can take you to a few places. And you can ship back large pieces > on trains without being hit with excess baggage charges. That sounds great, thanks! We did visit the artists colony just south of Chennai - Cholamandal, and I was somewhat underwhelmed, though walking around in the neighborhood and seeing all the sculpture in peoples's yards was very nice. -- Charles
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
> http://flickr.com/photos/haynes/311638848/ . I've been looking for > original art here and been surprised at just how hard it is to find! I > consider myself one of those "middle level" patrons of the arts. Poompuhar / Chennai Sangamam are good places in Madras, as Chandrachoodan mentioned. Why don't you take the train over for a quick trip? [its not worth flying ATR prop planes and standing an hour ++ in line waiting for security at either airport] Some of us can take you to a few places. And you can ship back large pieces on trains without being hit with excess baggage charges.
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
Charles Haynes wrote: > Not sure about that. Some of them do make a career out of dancing and > or teaching the dance. The "public performance" thing is what usually comes to a screeching halt. It continues to remain a perfectly respectable way for the Indian (or well, mylapore) equivalent of the US soccer mom to earn money working from home.
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
On Jan 14, 2008 10:53 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'm not so sure - see "patronage" above. I think it requires a culture > > that appreciate and values art. > How would that end up subsidizing the large number of beginner (and worse, > workmanlike / mediocre rather than genius level) artists? The way it seems to work in the US is that the middle class (or some segments at least) have an appreciation for "original art" and buy art they like from local artists either directly via open studios and the like, at periodic local "arts and crafts" fairs, or at weekend farmer's markets and such. That supports local and regional artists (generally graphic arts, sculpture, and some more "crafty" art forms like ceramics and "fiber arts.") Most of whom are either beginners or people who produce workmanlike but very derivative or otherwise not very original art. At the middle level you will have artists who are known locally or regionally and have a loyal following, their own studio and local niche galleries, but are only rarely seen in larger galleries. Then finally you have well known artists who show in major galleries. I have a number of pieces of original art, including one 8' sculpture that used to sit in my living room http://flickr.com/photos/haynes/66093867/ and maybe a dozen other pieces including one I commissioned http://flickr.com/photos/haynes/311638848/ . I've been looking for original art here and been surprised at just how hard it is to find! I consider myself one of those "middle level" patrons of the arts. I think the art scene in the US is relatively impoverished compared with art in, say, Spain. But I like Shiv's prediction about how retiring Indian techies may spend their years giving back open source. That would be cool. -- Charles
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote: > Isn't it equally de rigueur for them to stop dancing once they're older > and/or on the verge of getting married, because it's not respectable > for marriageable and married young women to be dancing? Stereotype / de rigueur question in those "arranged marriage" interviews where the boy's parents go do all the talking with the girl's parents, the boy is supposed to shut the hell up and the girl answer with "yes", "B.Tech", "Infosys", [salary that's at least 5..10K less than the boy's salary] <- details which her dad has probably already filled in before, in great detail, along with the girls horoscope and what her brothers, her uncles etc are doing etc etc, before that meeting even takes place, but still .. One inevitable question in such a stereotype interview is "can you dance / sing". Followed by a request for a live demo. Both sets of parents and the boy being tone deaf and the girl's voice a horrendous braying are an optional extra, and completely irrelevant .. yet another "yes" to tick on the checklist. srs
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
On Jan 14, 2008 11:11 AM, Abhijit Menon-Sen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Isn't it equally de rigueur for them to stop dancing once they're older > and/or on the verge of getting married, because it's not respectable for > marriageable and married young women to be dancing? > > -- ams > Not sure about that. Some of them do make a career out of dancing and or teaching the dance. C -- http://www.flickr.com/photos/ravages http://www.linkedin.com/in/ravages http://www.selectiveamnesia.org/ +91-9884467463
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
On Jan 14, 2008 10:53 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > As for amateur .. it is kind of de rigueur in madras at least, typically > for > tamil Brahmin families, to stick their kid into music and/or dance classes > by the time they are 7 or 8. And there's an active community of such > people.. with TV shows and such to showcase kids talents. > True. Most people I grew up with either sing or play one of the instruments (I went to classes as well. Just didn't develop any talent worth showcasing. I do play the mridangam, at a passable level, though.). Girls are "encouraged" to take up Bharata Natyam. A lot of TV channels now have special shows to showcase classical and pop music/dance etc. Contests, reality shows, just plain highlighting talent and more. > It is when people jump the gap from amateur performance to doing this for > "work" that the shoe starts to pinch. > While it is not exactly big money, pros get by on coaching kids, doing the odd radio or TV programme and stuff like that. The really good artistes get booked to do one show or the other on one channel or the other for festivals, and there are enough of that in this part of the world. > Google for "madras sabha season" and see all the names financing all the > concerts.. but other, more traditional art forms (folk art, sculpture, > etc) > tend to languish. > That is beginning to change in the last few years. You have people like koothu-p-pattarai doing street plays, folk dances and stuff which see decent audiences and some sponsorship. And Chennai Sangamam is doing a very good job of supporting small-time artistes - the folk-dance, folk-music kind of people as well as little known art forms of Tamil Nadu. Sculpture has always had some support or the other. Poompuhar, a crafts place in Chennai and Khadi Craft have had special sales/events around sculptures, idols and stuff. November-January is a good time in Chennai for all kinds of artistes. > > Interesting. Do you think that true of all the British colonial > > tradition, or is India different? > > The initial british colonial tradition was the east india company - in > india > to make a profit. Much later you did have individual brits (besides their > senior Indian employees such as the dubash / interpretor to the local > governor etc, as well as local rajas) patronizing local arts and > artistes, > and awarding them pensions, silk shawls / gold medals etc. > Not just the Brits. Local merchants and the zamindars patronised art and artistes. C -- http://www.flickr.com/photos/ravages http://www.linkedin.com/in/ravages http://www.selectiveamnesia.org/ +91-9884467463
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
At 2008-01-14 10:53:59 +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > As for amateur .. it is kind of de rigueur in madras at least, > typically for tamil Brahmin families, to stick their kid into > music and/or dance classes by the time they are 7 or 8. Isn't it equally de rigueur for them to stop dancing once they're older and/or on the verge of getting married, because it's not respectable for marriageable and married young women to be dancing? -- ams
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
Charles Haynes wrote: > Are they "respected" professions? How widespread are they? I'm really > very uninformed about them other than having listened to a few > carnatic music performances, and a few other musical performances. I Well, they are respected amateur and professional lifestyles. Especially classical music and dance. And you do have stars, especially in classical music, who make lots by cutting records and such. As for amateur .. it is kind of de rigueur in madras at least, typically for tamil Brahmin families, to stick their kid into music and/or dance classes by the time they are 7 or 8. And there's an active community of such people.. with TV shows and such to showcase kids talents. It is when people jump the gap from amateur performance to doing this for "work" that the shoe starts to pinch. > Yeah, patronage was how art was traditionally supported. Where are the > modern Indian patrons of the arts? If there aren't any, why do you > think that is? Perhaps we could support opensource development via a > patronage system? What captains of industry might be willing? Google for "madras sabha season" and see all the names financing all the concerts.. but other, more traditional art forms (folk art, sculpture, etc) tend to languish. > Interesting. Do you think that true of all the British colonial > tradition, or is India different? The initial british colonial tradition was the east india company - in india to make a profit. Much later you did have individual brits (besides their senior Indian employees such as the dubash / interpretor to the local governor etc, as well as local rajas) patronizing local arts and artistes, and awarding them pensions, silk shawls / gold medals etc. This book has a fairly comprehensive history - http://www.hindu.com/br/2006/02/28/stories/2006022800541600.htm > I'm not so sure - see "patronage" above. I think it requires a culture > that appreciate and values art. How would that end up subsidizing the large number of beginner (and worse, workmanlike / mediocre rather than genius level) artists?
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
On Jan 14, 2008 9:53 AM, shiv sastry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Indian art survives as music, classical dance and, to an extent Indian > language literature and poetry. Are they "respected" professions? How widespread are they? I'm really very uninformed about them other than having listened to a few carnatic music performances, and a few other musical performances. I know Deepa performs, and I have one friend back in the US who used to do some Indian dance. Is it common for people to be amateur performers? Are there local groups where people get together to perform? Classes? Semi-professional and professional performing groups? Perhaps you're right, and I'm just unaware. If so, I'd love to learn more. Are there people on silk who are performers who could teach me a little about the arts or point me at local resources? > Art as in painting and sculpture was supported by Hindu kings. There is a lot > of ancient Indian art. The magazine Frontline has been running a series for > several weeks on Indian art. Yeah, patronage was how art was traditionally supported. Where are the modern Indian patrons of the arts? If there aren't any, why do you think that is? Perhaps we could support opensource development via a patronage system? What captains of industry might be willing? > Also see: > http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/2008-01/india-ancient-art/oneill-text.html > > That Indian art died with the Islamic invasions , but was revived as > Indo-Islamic art and architecture. > > All died with the British. Interesting. Do you think that true of all the British colonial tradition, or is India different? > Indian art is likely to see a renaissance in decades to come. Art requires > food security and thriving societies. I'm not so sure - see "patronage" above. I think it requires a culture that appreciate and values art. But I think open source patronage has something going for it. -- Charles
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
There is no money in creativity in India. If creativity brings in the moolah, the artists will come in. Creativity is the opposite of conservatism. Hacking the IIT exam and getting a job with Microsoft is called "intelligence" in India. The emphasis is on "getting a job" that pays well enough to do all the things a Hindu is required to do. The good Hindu: a) Is an unmarried Brahmachari as a student when he is required to learn from his Guru(s) b) He must then become a "grihasta" who gets married and has children. It is this phase in life that all Hindus aim for. He must marry. He must have children. He must look after his "aged parents". His wife must serve the needs of her husband and her in laws. He must have a house and ensure th education of his children and set aside resources for their marriage. The grihasta must acquire all the current trappings of "modern society" c) The last stage in life for a Hindu could be sannyasa, when he gives up worldly desires. Let me stick my neck out and make a prediction: India's open source boom will come when the early whiz kids of the Infotech generation retire after fulfilling their Hindu duties and reach the sannyasa stage. They will then become productive in contributing to open source. shiv On Monday 14 Jan 2008 10:05 am, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: > Charles Haynes wrote: > > Could the earning pressures also be different? Is there less tendency > > to measure success solely by how much money you make? > > Well yes .. and in the US, there's always the option of living in a trailer > park and buying food at the local KFC. And you can still own a computer > there without too much of a hassle, and get a cheap internet connection. > > Out here, a PC + printer is a healthy chunk of your monthly salary (or more > than a months salary for quite a few people) .. not $450 with a $25 mailin > rebate like you can get from Fry's or order online from Dell / Gateway.
Re: [silk] Will India Become the New Vanguard of the Open SourceMovement?
On Monday 14 Jan 2008 9:39 am, Charles Haynes wrote: > I've long wondered why there seems to be so little tradition > of professional artists in India relative to what I was familiar with > in the US. Indian art survives as music, classical dance and, to an extent Indian language literature and poetry. Art as in painting and sculpture was supported by Hindu kings. There is a lot of ancient Indian art. The magazine Frontline has been running a series for several weeks on Indian art. Also see: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/2008-01/india-ancient-art/oneill-text.html That Indian art died with the Islamic invasions , but was revived as Indo-Islamic art and architecture. All died with the British. Indian art is likely to see a renaissance in decades to come. Art requires food security and thriving societies. shiv
