RE: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Yes in many instances they do know how mineral function and interact. But I don't think they know everything, it is difficult to ascertain what one does not know. A good Biochemistry text book will describe many of the chemical pathways and functions of many minerals in the body. Some that are present in very low amounts have only been researched when the technology (and funding) came along to measure them. Since Reganomics much less funding has been available for basic research so but there is still some going on. Zinc is a good example of a trace mineral we knew little about until we were able to measure the low amounts it is present in. Once the research was in all the major vitamin companies started adding it to their blends, many Zn supplements appeared and people started talking about Zn containing foods. Silicon is at that early stage right now. The trace minerals in general are the ones we know the least about. According to The Elements 3rd Ed by John Emsley, a standard reference normal amounts in the human body are 2 mg total (Blood 0.003 mg/dm3, Bone 0.01-0.44 ppm, Liver 0.005-0.25 ppm, Muscle 0.009-0.28 ppm) . It is distributed mainly in blood, bone, liver and muscle. Total dietary intake is 0.0014 to 0.08 mg per day. It is present in the Earth's crust 0.07 ppm. Native Silver occurs naturally as crystals, but more generally as compact masses. It is often obtained as a by-product in the refining of other metals such as copper. Garnet On Thu, 2004-04-08 at 17:33, Thora Rasmussen wrote: Humans need minerals. Do scientists even know exactly how they work, what they do, how they change? If not, it may be difficult for us to figure out which part of the silver does the work, and where. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
The paragraph on normal amounts refer to Silver not Silicon, as it now appears, in the below message. Garnet On Fri, 2004-04-09 at 08:27, Garnet wrote: Yes in many instances they do know how mineral function and interact. But I don't think they know everything, it is difficult to ascertain what one does not know. A good Biochemistry text book will describe many of the chemical pathways and functions of many minerals in the body. Some that are present in very low amounts have only been researched when the technology (and funding) came along to measure them. Since Reganomics much less funding has been available for basic research so but there is still some going on. Zinc is a good example of a trace mineral we knew little about until we were able to measure the low amounts it is present in. Once the research was in all the major vitamin companies started adding it to their blends, many Zn supplements appeared and people started talking about Zn containing foods. Silicon is at that early stage right now. The trace minerals in general are the ones we know the least about. According to The Elements 3rd Ed by John Emsley, a standard reference normal amounts in the human body are 2 mg total (Blood 0.003 mg/dm3, Bone 0.01-0.44 ppm, Liver 0.005-0.25 ppm, Muscle 0.009-0.28 ppm) . It is distributed mainly in blood, bone, liver and muscle. Total dietary intake is 0.0014 to 0.08 mg per day. It is present in the Earth's crust 0.07 ppm. Native Silver occurs naturally as crystals, but more generally as compact masses. It is often obtained as a by-product in the refining of other metals such as copper. Garnet On Thu, 2004-04-08 at 17:33, Thora Rasmussen wrote: Humans need minerals. Do scientists even know exactly how they work, what they do, how they change? If not, it may be difficult for us to figure out which part of the silver does the work, and where. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Since blood flows through and around our organs, then maybe the silver (in whatever form) does not need to go into our blood, but that the bad things in our blood need to be put where the silver is. For example, maybe there is silver in our liver and kidneys, and the bad stuff in our blood gets deposited there and then is killed, or maybe it has some type of chemical magnetism that attracts bad stuff and it kills it. Maybe the silver only goes into the blood if there are bad things, kills them, and is removed with the bad dead thing. Maybe the silver kick starts something else in us, and is not directly the only killer of bad stuff, but makes some other chemical or system work better. Does our immune system directly kill stuff, or does it bring bad stuff to some central location for killing, so that it wouldn't be necessary for our blood to hold the killer itself. Have any tests been done that literally tell of every molecule in our blood, to see what kind of things are really there? -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Humans need minerals. Do scientists even know exactly how they work, what they do, how they change? If not, it may be difficult for us to figure out which part of the silver does the work, and where. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
I suspect that scientists know almost nothing of what's touted in the alternative medicine field, whatever that might mean. I do know how CS has worked for me and mine. There is no better science than first hand science in this. stuff At 04:33 PM 4/8/2004 -0600, you wrote: Humans need minerals. Do scientists even know exactly how they work, what they do, how they change? If not, it may be difficult for us to figure out which part of the silver does the work, and where. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
I don't believe it would make any difference. The antiacid would react with the acid producing calcium chloride. Then the ionic silver would still take the chlorine away from the calcium resulting in silver chloride either way. Marshall Matthew McCann PE wrote: If gastric hydrochloric acid has a drastic impact onthe efficacy of LVDC EIS, then there should be anoticeable effect if the acid is neutralized just beforethe EIS is swallowed. For example, Kroger Extra Strength antacid tabletscontain 750 milligrams of calcium carbonate per tablet,of which 300 milligrams is elemental calcium. Has anybody experienced whether taking an antacidbefore ingesting EIS makes any difference?Thanks in advance for your input. Best regards, Matthew
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
I believe that higher ppms, 20 or so, may be better for topical application, but have no data to back that up with. Marshall Phinneas wrote: -Original Message- From: Marshall Dudley mdud...@execonn.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com silver-list@eskimo.com Date: Saturday, March 20, 2004 3:15 AM Subject: Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood Marshall, you write: As I have posted before, I believe that although pure particles may be best for internal use, a combination of particles and ions are best for topical treatment, especially for any areas that are burned or damaged for this reason. ***I believe that the CS that is produced via electrolysis in distilled water is near the optimum ratio for topical use. Marshall Question for topical use of CS: Would you suggest low ppm, as in oral/sublingual use? Or high ppm? Thanks, Phinneas -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Marshall wrote: Although this is correct, I feel it is irrelevant. Silver chloride will not remain silver chloride in the blood stream. Trace amounts of ammonia which are present in the blood should quickly combine with silver ions of the silver nitrate to produce a complex ion called the diamminesilver(I) ion, [Ag(NH3)2]+. I would expect this to end up being diamminesilver chloride. Since the concentration of ammonia in blood serum is 0.17 - 0.80 ppm and the chloride concentration is about 3500 ppm, it would seem to me that the ammonia concentration is too weak with such a high chloride concentration to make much difference. (Values from the Merck Manual, see: http://www.silver-colloids.com/Tables/LabValues.PDF ) I have asked Dr. Maass for his opinion on this issue and will post his answer when it is available. Regarding the comments on stomach acid, below is a comment from Dr. Maass. frank key The Chemical Handbook lists the solubility of AgCl to be 0.89g/100 ml of pure water. This corresponds to 0.89 ppm, a small enough number for every analytical book in the world to list AgCl as insoluble. If one calculates the solubility from the well-known solubility product constant Ksp = [Ag+] [Cl-] = 1.8 x 10-10 , one would get approximately the same answer, around 1 ppm. In a chloride environment, however, the solubility of AgCl would be less than it would be foe pure water, a result which would be expected from Le Chatelier's Principle. For the equilibrium Ag+ + Cl- à AgCl (s) Le Chatelier's Principle would state that the addition of chloride would drive the equilibrium to the right, towards the insoluble AgCl side. In a chloride environment, however, according to the Merck index, the amount of Cl- in the bloodstream is about 3500 ppm, which translates to approximately 0.1 M. Substituting this value into the above solubility product equation, one calculates that the amount of ionic silver in the blood cannot exceed 1.94 x 10-4 ppm. The common method of dissolving AgCl is not to use more acid, but to use a base, such as ammonium hydroxide, to form a soluble complex, i.e., AgCl (s) + 2NH4OH à Ag(NH3)2+(aq) + 2H2O While there is some evidence that an acid chloride complex can be formed to re-dissolve the AgCl precipitate, e.g., AgCl (s) + 2HCL à AgCl2-(aq) + 2H+ , this complex is of questionable stability and only exists in very high concentrations of acid, around 12 M, or over 100 times stronger than stomach acid. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
I don't recall where I got this but the figure I rememeber is that silver chloride is 1/10th as effective in vitro. Ode At 08:36 AM 3/19/2004 -0800, you wrote: Mr. Key, It may be you have stumbled upon the very method whereby EIS ions are transported in the human body. Carried by the chloride in the blood. Certainly we have a large body of evidence (the testimony of thousands of users) that home made EIS is effective against many bacteria in the body. Has anyone tested silver chloride efficacy against bacteria in vitro (such as the petri dish experiments performed by the researchers at BYU) and compared the results with in vitro testing of silver ions and compared with in vitro testing of silver particles? David Bearrow Dallas, TX, USA Frank Key fr...@colloidalsciencelab.com> wrote: There is no metal ion that has an attraction to chloride as strong as silver and chloride is the most prevalent anion in the human body. Blood serum typically consists of 3300 to 3900 ppm of chloride. The attraction of all other metal ions to chloride is weak by comparison to silver. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Although this is correct, I feel it is irrelevant. Silver chloride will not remain silver chloride in the blood stream. Trace amounts of ammonia which are present in the blood should quickly combine with silver ions of the silver nitrate to produce a complex ion called the diamminesilver(I) ion, [Ag(NH3)2]+. I would expect this to end up being diamminesilver chloride. The diamminesilver ion is relatively soluble, and any silver chloride that did precipitate should quickly react with trace amounts of ammonia producing a solution in the blood of diamminesilver chloride. Then, in conjunction with other compounds in the blood, the slightly basic pH of blood, and silver particles, the diamminesilver should quickly reduce to silver atoms onto the silver particles causing them to grow slightly. Without the silver particles to plate out on, then they would instead reduce in areas exposed to light, and then the remaining ions reduce on those particles, resulting in a rapid increase in size, and possibly producing argyria. The result is that no silver ions would be measurable in the blood shortly after the enter the blood stream. Do you know if the ISE will record diamminesilver ions as silver ions or not? If not, then they would not be measurable even if they did not reduce to metallic silver. Marshall Frank Key wrote: Regarding silver chloride solubility: I asked Dr. Maass to make a calculation based on the solubility product of silver chloride in blood serum whose typical chloride content is 3500 ppm (3300 - 3900 ppm per Merck Manual). Silver ions can exist at a concentration of 1.94 x10-4 ppm which is 0.000194 ppm. This is the maximum concentration of ionic silver that can exist in blood serum containing 3500 ppm of chloride. That explains why an ISE cannot detect silver, the value is below the detection limit of an ISE. Also see the solubility rules table see: http://www.silver-colloids.com/Tutorials/Solubility_Rules.htm frank key -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
-Original Message- From: Marshall Dudley mdud...@execonn.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com silver-list@eskimo.com Date: Saturday, March 20, 2004 3:15 AM Subject: Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood Marshall, you write: As I have posted before, I believe that although pure particles may be best for internal use, a combination of particles and ions are best for topical treatment, especially for any areas that are burned or damaged for this reason. ***I believe that the CS that is produced via electrolysis in distilled water is near the optimum ratio for topical use. Marshall Question for topical use of CS: Would you suggest low ppm, as in oral/sublingual use? Or high ppm? Thanks, Phinneas -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
How many rats don't survive? I don't think you'll find many ebola volunteers. Ode At 05:47 PM 3/18/2004 -0600, you wrote: I strongly disagree. Human beings create the need for testing--let all medical/drug testing be done on willing human subjects and stop the rampant abuse of lab animals. The results obtained will have greater correspondance to reality. Deborah Matthew McCann PE wrote: Hi, Paula, Your experience with CS/EIS goes to show that the hypothetical in-vivo experiment should, for reasons of bio-ethics, be done only on lab animals. An initial infection would have to be induced if none already existed. Best regards, Matthew -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Al Davis wrote: Rosenzweig was recently awarded a $500,000 MacArthur Fellowship. She is an expert in the structure and biochemistry of metalloproteins, specialized proteins that are essential to the healthy functioning of all cells in the human body. Her research focuses on how these essential yet toxic metal ions are handled in cells and how metalloenzymes catalyze complex and difficult chemical transformations. Image courtesy of Amy C. Rosenzweig, associate professor in biochemistry, molecular biology and cell biology at Northwestern University. Has she published any information specifically regarding silver ions? The interactions of metal ions with metalloproteins are not such that all metal ions are handled the same way and in the human body silver ions could be expected to behave differently than most other metals. There is no metal ion that has an attraction to chloride as strong as silver and chloride is the most prevalent anion in the human body. Blood serum typically consists of 3300 to 3900 ppm of chloride. The attraction of all other metal ions to chloride is weak by comparison to silver. frank key -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Mike wrote: Does ISE *ever* pick up silver ions in the blood? Is it even possible? According to the Merck manual, the ISE is the proper way to detect silver ions in blood serum. So, if you administer comparable doses of *ionic* silver, does any show up in the bloodstream as measured by absorption/emission? Silver can be detected in the bloodstream after ingesting ionic silver. Because an ISE detects no silver ions it seems reasonable to speculate that silver chloride is what is being detected. frank key -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Jonathan B. Britten wrote: One question for Mr. Key about the ionization of silver particles: I can accept that there is no known mechanism for silver particles to be converted to ions in vivo. However, if I understand the use of Silverlon bandages, particulate silver is converted to silver ions on the surface of the skin, simply by soaking the bandages in water. Some interaction between water, the particle-impregnated bandages, and the skin, apparently produces ions; if memory serves me, the web site for the Silverlon products claims that silver ions are the cause of the therapeutic benefits. Lets not confuse two different therapeutic benefits of silver. I believe that the particles are best for killing pathogens, but the ions are what is needed to make cells revert back to stem cells, which is what Silverlon does to heal burns. As I have posted before, I believe that although pure particles may be best for internal use, a combination of particles and ions are best for topical treatment, especially for any areas that are burned or damaged for this reason. I believe that the CS that is produced via electrolysis in distilled water is near the optimum ratio for topical use. Marshall -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Frank Key wrote: AThere is no metal ion that has an attraction to chloride as strong as silver and chloride is the most prevalent anion in the human body. Blood serum typically consists of 3300 to 3900 ppm of chloride. The attraction of all other metal ions to chloride is weak by comparison to silver. If the attraction is so strong, then why does silver chloride spontaneously reduce to silver metal upon exposure to light and under many other gentle conditions? Marshall -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Frank Key wrote: Mike wrote: Does ISE *ever* pick up silver ions in the blood? Is it even possible? According to the Merck manual, the ISE is the proper way to detect silver ions in blood serum. So, if you administer comparable doses of *ionic* silver, does any show up in the bloodstream as measured by absorption/emission? Silver can be detected in the bloodstream after ingesting ionic silver. Because an ISE detects no silver ions it seems reasonable to speculate that silver chloride is what is being detected. Huh? Silver chloride dissolved in an aquous carrier, will become a silver ion and a chlorine ion. I don't follow this seeminly paradoxical statement. In what form is the ionic silver being ingested for this test? Is it silver chloride or silver nitrate, or silver hydroxide? Is there any particulate silver in the mix as well? If so, then the reasonable assumtion is I believe that the silver that is being detected is metallic silver particles as outlined in an earlier message from me yesterday. Marshall -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Frank replies: Does ISE *ever* pick up silver ions in the blood? Is it even possible? According to the Merck manual, the ISE is the proper way to detect silver ions in blood serum. So the Merck manual at leasts suggests that detecting ions in blood serum is a physical possibility. Fine... So, if you administer comparable doses of *ionic* silver, does any show up in the bloodstream as measured by absorption/emission? Silver can be detected in the bloodstream after ingesting ionic silver. Because an ISE detects no silver ions it seems reasonable to speculate that silver chloride is what is being detected. Okay, but reasonable speculation does not preclude some other mechanism. Your assertion seems to depend heavily on the fate of silver chloride in the body. This, then, is the limit of your and your colleagues study of the matter? Are you aware of any comparative data or studies of total serum silver levels versus ingested amounts of silver for ionic, ionic/particle and particle only products? Thank you sir! Mike D. [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian] [mdev...@eskimo.com] [Speaking only for myself... ] -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Mr. Key, It may be you have stumbled upon the very method whereby EIS ions are transported in the human body. Carried by the chloride in the blood. Certainly we have a large body of evidence (the testimony of thousands of users) that home made EIS is effective against many bacteria in the body. Has anyone tested silver chloride efficacy against bacteria in vitro (such as the petri dish experiments performed by the researchers at BYU) and compared the results with in vitro testing of silver ions and compared with in vitro testing of silver particles? David Bearrow Dallas, TX, USA Frank Key fr...@colloidalsciencelab.com wrote: There is no metal ion that has an attraction to chloride as strong as silver and chloride is the most prevalent anion in the human body. Blood serum typically consists of 3300 to 3900 ppm of chloride. The attraction of all other metal ions to chloride is weak by comparison to silver.
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Marshall wrote: Huh? Silver chloride dissolved in an aquous carrier, will become a silver ion and a chlorine ion. I don't follow this seeminly paradoxical statement. Silver chloride is insoluble in water so it does not dissolve in an aqueous carrier to become a silver ion and a chloride ion. In what form is the ionic silver being ingested for this test? Is it silver chloride or silver nitrate, or silver hydroxide? Is there any particulate silver in the mix as well? If so, then the reasonable assumtion is I believe that the silver that is being detected is metallic silver particles as outlined in an earlier message from me yesterday. Pure ionic silver with no particles was used. The anion was most likely carbonate since no anion was added. Silver carbonate can readily be made up to about 25 ppm. Carbonate is the anion when air is bubbled through the water when making ionic silver by electrolysis. The small percentage of particles produced by electrolysis can be ionized (turned into ions) by ozonating the water. frank key -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Frank Key wrote: Marshall wrote: Huh? Silver chloride dissolved in an aquous carrier, will become a silver ion and a chlorine ion. I don't follow this seeminly paradoxical statement. Silver chloride is insoluble in water so it does not dissolve in an aqueous carrier to become a silver ion and a chloride ion. What makes you think it is insoluble? As I pointed out yesterday it has a solubility of .89 ppm (1) in cold water, and much higher in warm water. Also the solubility should be higher in hydrochloric acid. In what form is the ionic silver being ingested for this test? Is it silver chloride or silver nitrate, or silver hydroxide? Is there any particulate silver in the mix as well? If so, then the reasonable assumtion is I believe that the silver that is being detected is metallic silver particles as outlined in an earlier message from me yesterday. Pure ionic silver with no particles was used. The anion was most likely carbonate since no anion was added. Silver carbonate can readily be made up to about 25 ppm. Carbonate is the anion when air is bubbled through the water when making ionic silver by electrolysis. If it was in pure water, would not the anion be the hydroxide radical, basiclly pulling an OH off the water molecule? The small percentage of particles produced by electrolysis can be ionized (turned into ions) by ozonating the water. What is this process? Does it produce silver oxide, or silver peroxide? Thanks, Marshall 1. CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 52nd edition, page B-134. frank key -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood -solubility of silver choride
Marshall wrote: Huh? Silver chloride dissolved in an aquous carrier, will become a silver ion and a chlorine ion. I don't follow this seeminly paradoxical statement. Silver chloride is insoluble in water (aqueous carrier) , for more on solubility rules see: http://www.silver-colloids.com/Tutorials/Solubility_Rules.htm frank key -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
The ph of stomach acid runs from about 1 to 2. This works out to 10^-2 to 10^-1, or .01 to .1 mole from what I can determine. Anyway, thanks for finding a reference to support what I had arrived at intuatively earlier, that indeed AgCl has a higher solubility in stomach acid than in pure water.. Marshall Matthew McCann PE wrote: What is the molarity of HCl in the stomach? James Lingane in his text Electroanalytical Chemistry(2nd Edition, Interscience Publishers, NY, 1958;p.381) mentions how AgCl can be dissolved. If AgCl is putin a large concentration ( 0.2M) of HCl, it will produceH+ and AgCl(2)-, which do not precipitate becausetheir solubility is appreciably greater than that of HClin pure water. Best regards, Matthew
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood -solubility of silver choride
That table give low solubility for AgCl, same as the solubility table I have. 0.89 ppm is low solubility, but it is not insoluble. Do you have a reference that gives a solubility of 0.00 ppm for AgCl, every reference I have indicates around 1 ppm for this. Take a look at: http://science.widener.edu/~svanbram/chem146/ch18/silver_chloride_solub.pdf It solves the solubility and comes up with a theoretical .895 ppm, which is almost identical to the measured amount I have of .89 ppm. Marshall Frank Key wrote: Marshall wrote: Huh? Silver chloride dissolved in an aquous carrier, will become a silver ion and a chlorine ion. I don't follow this seeminly paradoxical statement. Silver chloride is insoluble in water (aqueous carrier) , for more on solubility rules see: http://www.silver-colloids.com/Tutorials/Solubility_Rules.htm frank key -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Regarding silver chloride solubility: I asked Dr. Maass to make a calculation based on the solubility product of silver chloride in blood serum whose typical chloride content is 3500 ppm (3300 - 3900 ppm per Merck Manual). Silver ions can exist at a concentration of 1.94 x10-4 ppm which is 0.000194 ppm. This is the maximum concentration of ionic silver that can exist in blood serum containing 3500 ppm of chloride. That explains why an ISE cannot detect silver, the value is below the detection limit of an ISE. Also see the solubility rules table see: http://www.silver-colloids.com/Tutorials/Solubility_Rules.htm frank key -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Might be more useful to discover what form the silver is in rather than what form it's not in. I don't see how an ion can live in the blood either and likely it's not and IS being bound up with something, but ionic silver does seem to work. Perhaps it become released again when whatever it's tied up in contacts a micro organism. Heck fire..I dunno! And it's pretty likely that no one else does either. Is there any way to specifically test for 'silver chloride' in the blood and in elimination substances? What really does happen to silver oxide when it hits the 'system'? Silver peroxide? How is it that a really really small silver particle can be brown? Do single silver oxide/peroxide molecules present more silver surface area to the environment than pure silver clusters a hundred times larger in diameter? This probably isn't a case of right and wrong ways. More like, right ways and 'mo-betta' right ways. Myself, I like to make CS that has a good strong TE. That way both worlds rotate like worlds tend to do while we're trying to call one of them flat. [Could be face cubic] :-) Meanwhile, everyone on both planets walks on the dirt under their feet and all of them manage to get around somehow. Ode At 07:55 PM 3/17/2004 -0500, you wrote: The Herx reaction is evidence that something germicidal made it into the bloodstream, but it does not mean that the something was ionic silver. The silver particles that are present in ionic silver products will enter the bloodstream and produce those results. My point is that if it is ionic silver, why can't an ISE measure their presence? Atomic absorption/emission can detect the presence of silver in the blood, but the ISE finds no silver ions. Frank Key - Original Message - From: Matthew McCann PE To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 6:21 PM Subject: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood Hi, Frank! The Herxheimer reaction gives some evidence that something germicidal has made it into the bloodstream. This could be put on a quantitative basis by a bioassay procedure. A more compelling demonstration would be occurrence of a Herxheimer reaction following the transfusion of blood to recipient who had not ingested EIS, from a donor who had ingested EIS. This, of course, would not prove the silver was still ionized. But it would prove that a germicidal agent existed in the bloodstream. Best regards, Matthew -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Frank: Just to see if I understand your position correctly, and also to ask a few questions: The colloidal silver that most of us make with home generators is about 85-90 % ionic, as is much of the CS that is sold commercially. Your argument is that the silver ions combine with chloride ions in the body very quickly and that the resulting combination has no (or less?) antimicrobial utility? The admitted fact that these products ARE effective in combating viral and bacterial infections is therefore due to the action of the 10-15% of the solution that is particulate? Is that correct? If the consumption of ionic CS results in silver chloride in the bloodstream, wouldn't this create a greater danger of argyria? I have heard repeatedly that consumption of silver salts, such as silver chloride, WILL cause argyria in time - yet consumption of primarily ionic CS does not seem to do this. You have stated that there is no proof of measurable ionic silver circulating in the bloodstream, but is there proof of measurable silver chloride? Is there proof that the silver ions convert so quickly to silver chloride in the bloodstream and that they remain in that form? If I understand correctly, the product you produce is primarily particulate, consisting of very very small particles of silver. People who have used this report that it is very effective, but is there more danger of argyria from this product? Or are the particles so small that they are easily transported out of the body? Any studies on this? I saw an email from Jason a while back (where is he by the way? I have not seen anything from him in quite a while.) that concluded that nobody really knows enough about the action of CS in the body to be certain whether silver ions or silver particles are more effective, and that it is probably good that what most of us use has both. Apparently you disagree, but do you see any actual harm in using ionic CS, other than its (supposed) lesser degree of effectiveness? Just wondering... Del - Original Message - From: Frank Key fr...@colloidalsciencelab.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 7:55 PM Subject: Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood The Herx reaction is evidence that something germicidal made it into the bloodstream, but it does not mean that the something was ionic silver. The silver particles that are present in ionic silver products will enter the bloodstream and produce those results. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
I don't believe that could be compelling. A herx like reaction could be brought on if the blood had a pathogen in it, and the person receiving the blood had an immune response to it, or if it had antibodies in it that attacked something the receiver had already. It could even be brought on if the person who received the blood were highly allergic to something the donor had eaten or smoked or been exposed to. Marshall Matthew McCann PE wrote: Hi, Frank! The Herxheimer reaction gives some evidence thatsomething germicidal has made it into the bloodstream.This could be put on a quantitative basis by a bioassayprocedure. A more compelling demonstration would be occurrence ofa Herxheimer reaction following the transfusion of bloodto recipient who had not ingested EIS, from a donor whohad ingested EIS. This, of course, would not prove thesilver was still ionized. But it would prove that agermicidal agent existed in the bloodstream. Best regards, Matthew
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Mike wrote: That said, I do have to ask: Why should we expect the silver in the bloodstream still to be ionic? If it is complexed with something that the body is using as a transport mechanism, is there any reason to see it in a test for silver ions? Perhaps the issue of looking for ionic silver in the bloodstream may stem from the in vitro tests of ionic silver that demonstrate it killing pathogens in the lab. The claims imply that if ionic silver can kill pathogens in a petri dish, it can do the same thing in the bloodstream. The problem is that no one has ever found that silver ions can exist inside the human body. If ionic silver is complexed and circulated with the blood, where is the evidence that would demonstrate the existence of such a mechanism? How does silver get complexed when the first thing it encounters upon ingestion is the stomach acid (HCL)? When ionic silver mixes with HCL it only takes a few seconds to precipitate to silver chloride. Saliva mixed with ionic silver does not prevent the silver chloride precipitation from HCL. Silver chloride is insoluble once formed. Some of it may be absorbed into the bloodstream, but it is not known to have strong antimicrobial properties. In seems much more likely that it is the silver particles, which typically account for about 10% of the total silver in ionic silver products, that are getting into the bloodstream and killing the pathogens. That was also the conclusion of Prof. Ronald Gibbs and others at the University of Delaware when they were doing their investigation. Does your high-particulate product show up in the bloodstream as ions, or something else? Does ionic silver end up in the bloodstream, but just not as free ions available for an ISE measurement? When colloidal silver particles are ingested, silver can be detected in the bloodstream within 15 minutes using atomic absorption/emission, but no silver ions are detectable in the blood using an ISE. For silver particles to be converted into silver ions inside the body would require that something inside the body be capable of ionizing those particles. In theory there is no substance in the body that is capable of ionizing metallic silver. To the best of my knowledge, it has never been demonstrated that metallic silver can be ionized in the body. Hydrochloric acid in the stomach will not effect metallic silver. The acids and other substances that can ionize metallic silver are not found in the body. This group may find it interesting that some silver products on the market have been found to contain little or no silver. See: http://www.silver-colloids.com/Reports/reports.html#results Frank Key - Original Message - From: M. G. Devour mdev...@eskimo.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 9:27 PM Subject: Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood Frank writes: My point is that if it is ionic silver, why can't an ISE measure their presence? Atomic absorption/emission can detect the presence of silver in the blood, but the ISE finds no silver ions. Thank you for your continued presence and contribution to our list, Frank. Indeed I appreciate the information about silver products you've shared with the community at large. That said, I do have to ask: Why should we expect the silver in the bloodstream still to be ionic? If it is complexed with something that the body is using as a transport mechanism, is there any reason to see it in a test for silver ions? Does your high-particulate product show up in the bloodstream as ions, or something else? Does ionic silver end up in the bloodstream, but just not as free ions available for an ISE measurement? Thanks! Mike D. [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian] [mdev...@eskimo.com] [Speaking only for myself... ] -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Frank Key wrote: Mike wrote: That said, I do have to ask: Why should we expect the silver in the bloodstream still to be ionic? If it is complexed with something that the body is using as a transport mechanism, is there any reason to see it in a test for silver ions? Perhaps the issue of looking for ionic silver in the bloodstream may stem from the in vitro tests of ionic silver that demonstrate it killing pathogens in the lab. The claims imply that if ionic silver can kill pathogens in a petri dish, it can do the same thing in the bloodstream. The problem is that no one has ever found that silver ions can exist inside the human body. Actually all silver compounds form silver silver ions when dissolved. Silver ions can certainly be found in the blood stream if one takes silver nitrate. I assume by silver ions you mean ions with no anion associated with it, or those associated with the OH radical. If ionic silver is complexed and circulated with the blood, where is the evidence that would demonstrate the existence of such a mechanism? How does silver get complexed when the first thing it encounters upon ingestion is the stomach acid (HCL)? When ionic silver mixes with HCL it only takes a few seconds to precipitate to silver chloride. Saliva mixed with ionic silver does not prevent the silver chloride precipitation from HCL. Silver chloride is insoluble once formed. Some of it may be absorbed into the bloodstream, but it is not known to have strong antimicrobial properties. Actually silver chloride is not insoluble. It has a solubility of .89 ppm in cold water, and is higher in warm water. I believe it's solubility is much higher in hydrochloric acid, but have no proof on that. At any rate it could be argued that 1 ppm or more can dissolve in the stomach acid at body temperature, and then transport to the blood stream, where it would be diluted, and would not precipitate out as long as the concentration in the blood stream did not exceed 1 or so ppm. Thus it is conceivable that an ounce of 12 ppm CS, with 10 ppm of ionic form, could generate 1 ppm equivalent of silver chloride in the stomach, and 9 ppm equivalent would precipitate out. But as the 1 ppm in solution diffused into the blood stream, the part that precipitated out would then dissolve back into the stomach acid, so that if it remained in the stomach long enough, the full one ounce of 10 ppm ionic silver COULD still make it to the blood stream. Now, an interesting thing can happen. If the blood stream has any developer in it at all (caffine for instance, and likely some of the normal compounds in blood), this silver chloride will quickly reduce to metallic silver upon contact with any silver particles. Since 10 to 20% of the CS is silver particles, this should happen quite quickly, resulting in a slight increase in the size of the particles of approximately 44% in diameter if 100% of the ionic portion were to do this. So, in the end, no ionic silver would be detected in the blood stream, it would, in the end convert to particles. So this begs the question, why could one not simply take silver chloride, and why does silver chloride cause argyria, but colloidal silver that is 90% ionic not cause argyria. The reason is that the 10% to 20% silver particles are essential for the silver chloride to reduce onto particles in the blood stream where they will not get trapped. Without the particles, the silver chloride will circulate until it is exposed to some light, and at that point will reduce to metallic silver! Then the rest of the silver chloride will precipitate onto those particles, cause them to grow rapidly until they get trapped anywhere they were exposed to light, and the result is argyria. I agree that silver chloride does not have antimicrobial properties anywhere nearly as strong as metallic particles. In seems much more likely that it is the silver particles, which typically account for about 10% of the total silver in ionic silver products, that are getting into the bloodstream and killing the pathogens. That was also the conclusion of Prof. Ronald Gibbs and others at the University of Delaware when they were doing their investigation. Does your high-particulate product show up in the bloodstream as ions, or something else? Does ionic silver end up in the bloodstream, but just not as free ions available for an ISE measurement? When colloidal silver particles are ingested, silver can be detected in the bloodstream within 15 minutes using atomic absorption/emission, but no silver ions are detectable in the blood using an ISE. That is expected, any silver ions in the presence of silver particles should quickly plate out on the particles leaving no ions in the blood. For silver particles to be converted into silver ions inside the body would require that something inside the body be capable of ionizing those particles. In theory there is no substance in the body that is
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Depending on a herx or herx like reaction sure wouldn't work for me. My CS consumption varies from a couple ounces up to nearly a quart per day, depending on what is going on with me. I've never had a herx reaction, not even a mild one. Even so, CS fixes whatever I'm taking it for. But no herx. Wonder why? paula Marshall Dudley wrote: I don't believe that could be compelling. A herx like reaction could be brought on if the blood had a pathogen in it, and the person receiving the blood had an immune response to it, or if it had antibodies in it that attacked something the receiver had already. It could even be brought on if the person who received the blood were highly allergic to something the donor had eaten or smoked or been exposed to. Marshall Matthew McCann PE wrote: Hi, Frank! The Herxheimer reaction gives some evidence thatsomething germicidal has made it into the bloodstream.This could be put on a quantitative basis by a bioassayprocedure. A more compelling demonstration would be occurrence ofa Herxheimer reaction following the transfusion of bloodto recipient who had not ingested EIS, from a donor whohad ingested EIS. This, of course, would not prove thesilver was still ionized. But it would prove that agermicidal agent existed in the bloodstream. Best regards, Matthew -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Hi Frank, Any idea if the silver ions inside the body can combine to form particles that have antibacterial properties? Thanks, Vince Frank Key writes: Mike wrote: That said, I do have to ask: Why should we expect the silver in the bloodstream still to be ionic? If it is complexed with something that the body is using as a transport mechanism, is there any reason to see it in a test for silver ions? Perhaps the issue of looking for ionic silver in the bloodstream may stem from the in vitro tests of ionic silver that demonstrate it killing pathogens in the lab. The claims imply that if ionic silver can kill pathogens in a petri dish, it can do the same thing in the bloodstream. The problem is that no one has ever found that silver ions can exist inside the human body. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
As outlined in a post earlier today, I believe that any ions of silver in the blood (or compounds), will quickly plate out on any silver particles they come in contact with increasing their size slightly. If you have CS particles in the blood, then the particles should get slightly larger, if you do not, then they will reduce to silver atoms upon exposure to light in the skin, and then the rest of the silver ions will plate out on those in the skin. If they grow too large too fast, it could cause argyria. Interesting, colloidal silver may be very good at preventing argyria if ionic silver or silver compounds are in the blood stream. Marshall cvincer wrote: Hi Frank, Any idea if the silver ions inside the body can combine to form particles that have antibacterial properties? Thanks, Vince Frank Key writes: Mike wrote: That said, I do have to ask: Why should we expect the silver in the bloodstream still to be ionic? If it is complexed with something that the body is using as a transport mechanism, is there any reason to see it in a test for silver ions? Perhaps the issue of looking for ionic silver in the bloodstream may stem from the in vitro tests of ionic silver that demonstrate it killing pathogens in the lab. The claims imply that if ionic silver can kill pathogens in a petri dish, it can do the same thing in the bloodstream. The problem is that no one has ever found that silver ions can exist inside the human body. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
I strongly disagree. Human beings create the need for testing--let all medical/drug testing be done on willing human subjects and stop the rampant abuse of lab animals. The results obtained will have greater correspondance to reality. Deborah Matthew McCann PE wrote: Hi, Paula, Your experience with CS/EIS goes to show that the hypothetical in-vivo experiment should, for reasons of bio-ethics, be done only on lab animals. An initial infection would have to be induced if none already existed. Best regards, Matthew -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Frank writes: When colloidal silver particles are ingested, silver can be detected in the bloodstream within 15 minutes using atomic absorption/emission Okay, that's good news. ... but no silver ions are detectable in the blood using an ISE. Does ISE *ever* pick up silver ions in the blood? Is it even possible? For silver particles to be converted into silver ions inside the body would require that something inside the body be capable of ionizing those particles. In theory there is no substance in the body that is capable of ionizing metallic silver. To the best of my knowledge, it has never been demonstrated that metallic silver can be ionized in the body. Hydrochloric acid in the stomach will not effect metallic silver. The acids and other substances that can ionize metallic silver are not found in the body. Okay, so particles stay particles... I can accept that. So, if you administer comparable doses of *ionic* silver, does any show up in the bloodstream as measured by absorption/emission? You've stated that particles cause silver to show up in the blood under absorption/emission spectroscopy. You've stated that no silver ions show up in the blood from either your product or others. But what you haven't stated is whether silver is detectable in the blood using absorption/emmission spectroscopy after ingesting ionic products? You assert that no mechanism exists for the body to assimilate ionic silver, but your comments so far have skirted this question. This group may find it interesting that some silver products on the market have been found to contain little or no silver. See: http://www.silver-colloids.com/Reports/reports.html#results Yes, there is a lot of schlock in the marketplace. That's why a lot of us like to make our own CS. At least we know what goes into it... as long as our batteries don't go dead! ggg Be well, Mike D. [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian] [mdev...@eskimo.com] [Speaking only for myself... ] -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
From a layman's point of view, I think one of the most important points about particles vs. ions came from a posting by Frank Key himself. Mr. Key argues that the particles are the main therapeutic component of EIS brews, and observes that most home generators make some particles and lots of ions. He stated, if I may paraphrase the post, that although the ions convert to silver chloride in the bloodstream, there is little risk of any bad reaction from the quantities consumed by most users of LVDC EIS. On that basis, I think that list members of make LVDC EIS can continue to do so, and enjoy the very low cost of this experimental mineral supplement. If I have misinterpreted any of Mr. Key's comments, I hope he will correct me. Cheers, JBB On Thursday, Mar 18, 2004, at 21:33 Asia/Tokyo, Ode Coyote wrote: Might be more useful to discover what form the silver is in rather than what form it's not in. I don't see how an ion can live in the blood either and likely it's not and IS being bound up with something, but ionic silver does seem to work. Perhaps it become released again when whatever it's tied up in contacts a micro organism. Heck fire..I dunno! And it's pretty likely that no one else does either. Is there any way to specifically test for 'silver chloride' in the blood and in elimination substances? What really does happen to silver oxide when it hits the 'system'? Silver peroxide? How is it that a really really small silver particle can be brown? Do single silver oxide/peroxide molecules present more silver surface area to the environment than pure silver clusters a hundred times larger in diameter? This probably isn't a case of right and wrong ways. More like, right ways and 'mo-betta' right ways. Myself, I like to make CS that has a good strong TE. That way both worlds rotate like worlds tend to do while we're trying to call one of them flat. [Could be face cubic] :-) Meanwhile, everyone on both planets walks on the dirt under their feet and all of them manage to get around somehow. Ode At 07:55 PM 3/17/2004 -0500, you wrote: The Herx reaction is evidence that something germicidal made it into the bloodstream, but it does not mean that the something was ionic silver. The silver particles that are present in ionic silver products will enter the bloodstream and produce those results. My point is that if it is ionic silver, why can't an ISE measure their presence? Atomic absorption/emission can detect the presence of silver in the blood, but the ISE finds no silver ions. Frank Key - Original Message - From: Matthew McCann PE To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 6:21 PM Subject: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood Hi, Frank! The Herxheimer reaction gives some evidence that something germicidal has made it into the bloodstream. This could be put on a quantitative basis by a bioassay procedure. A more compelling demonstration would be occurrence of a Herxheimer reaction following the transfusion of blood to recipient who had not ingested EIS, from a donor who had ingested EIS. This, of course, would not prove the silver was still ionized. But it would prove that a germicidal agent existed in the bloodstream. Best regards, Matthew -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
One question for Mr. Key about the ionization of silver particles: I can accept that there is no known mechanism for silver particles to be converted to ions in vivo. However, if I understand the use of Silverlon bandages, particulate silver is converted to silver ions on the surface of the skin, simply by soaking the bandages in water. Some interaction between water, the particle-impregnated bandages, and the skin, apparently produces ions; if memory serves me, the web site for the Silverlon products claims that silver ions are the cause of the therapeutic benefits. If the above summary is correct, then I wonder whether somehow, in vivo, a similar process might not be happening. Obviously, water in the body is all mixed up with everything else; I am not overlooking this! But not being a chemist, I ask those who might know: could not H20 in vivo produce ions in a manner similar to that summarized above? Comments welcome. JBB On Friday, Mar 19, 2004, at 00:29 Asia/Tokyo, Frank Key wrote: Mike wrote: That said, I do have to ask: Why should we expect the silver in the bloodstream still to be ionic? If it is complexed with something that the body is using as a transport mechanism, is there any reason to see it in a test for silver ions? Perhaps the issue of looking for ionic silver in the bloodstream may stem from the in vitro tests of ionic silver that demonstrate it killing pathogens in the lab. The claims imply that if ionic silver can kill pathogens in a petri dish, it can do the same thing in the bloodstream. The problem is that no one has ever found that silver ions can exist inside the human body. If ionic silver is complexed and circulated with the blood, where is the evidence that would demonstrate the existence of such a mechanism? How does silver get complexed when the first thing it encounters upon ingestion is the stomach acid (HCL)? When ionic silver mixes with HCL it only takes a few seconds to precipitate to silver chloride. Saliva mixed with ionic silver does not prevent the silver chloride precipitation from HCL. Silver chloride is insoluble once formed. Some of it may be absorbed into the bloodstream, but it is not known to have strong antimicrobial properties. In seems much more likely that it is the silver particles, which typically account for about 10% of the total silver in ionic silver products, that are getting into the bloodstream and killing the pathogens. That was also the conclusion of Prof. Ronald Gibbs and others at the University of Delaware when they were doing their investigation. Does your high-particulate product show up in the bloodstream as ions, or something else? Does ionic silver end up in the bloodstream, but just not as free ions available for an ISE measurement? When colloidal silver particles are ingested, silver can be detected in the bloodstream within 15 minutes using atomic absorption/emission, but no silver ions are detectable in the blood using an ISE. For silver particles to be converted into silver ions inside the body would require that something inside the body be capable of ionizing those particles. In theory there is no substance in the body that is capable of ionizing metallic silver. To the best of my knowledge, it has never been demonstrated that metallic silver can be ionized in the body. Hydrochloric acid in the stomach will not effect metallic silver. The acids and other substances that can ionize metallic silver are not found in the body. This group may find it interesting that some silver products on the market have been found to contain little or no silver. See: http://www.silver-colloids.com/Reports/reports.html#results Frank Key - Original Message - From: M. G. Devour mdev...@eskimo.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 9:27 PM Subject: Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood Frank writes: My point is that if it is ionic silver, why can't an ISE measure their presence? Atomic absorption/emission can detect the presence of silver in the blood, but the ISE finds no silver ions. Thank you for your continued presence and contribution to our list, Frank. Indeed I appreciate the information about silver products you've shared with the community at large. That said, I do have to ask: Why should we expect the silver in the bloodstream still to be ionic? If it is complexed with something that the body is using as a transport mechanism, is there any reason to see it in a test for silver ions? Does your high-particulate product show up in the bloodstream as ions, or something else? Does ionic silver end up in the bloodstream, but just not as free ions available for an ISE measurement? Thanks! Mike D. [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian] [mdev...@eskimo.com] [Speaking only for myself... ] -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Frank Key wrote: If ionic silver is complexed and circulated with the blood, where is the evidence that would demonstrate the existence of such a mechanism? Rosenzweig was recently awarded a $500,000 MacArthur Fellowship. She is an expert in the structure and biochemistry of metalloproteins, specialized proteins that are essential to the healthy functioning of all cells in the human body. Her research focuses on how these essential yet toxic metal ions are handled in cells and how metalloenzymes catalyze complex and difficult chemical transformations. Image courtesy of Amy C. Rosenzweig, associate professor in biochemistry, molecular biology and cell biology at Northwestern University. -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
Frank writes: My point is that if it is ionic silver, why can't an ISE measure their presence? Atomic absorption/emission can detect the presence of silver in the blood, but the ISE finds no silver ions. Thank you for your continued presence and contribution to our list, Frank. Indeed I appreciate the information about silver products you've shared with the community at large. That said, I do have to ask: Why should we expect the silver in the bloodstream still to be ionic? If it is complexed with something that the body is using as a transport mechanism, is there any reason to see it in a test for silver ions? Does your high-particulate product show up in the bloodstream as ions, or something else? Does ionic silver end up in the bloodstream, but just not as free ions available for an ISE measurement? Thanks! Mike D. [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian] [mdev...@eskimo.com] [Speaking only for myself... ] -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood
The Herx reaction is evidence that something germicidal made it into the bloodstream, but it does not mean that the something was ionic silver. The silver particles that are present in ionic silver products will enter the bloodstream and produce those results. My point is that if it is ionic silver, why can't an ISE measure their presence? Atomic absorption/emission can detect the presence of silver in the blood, but the ISE finds no silver ions. Frank Key - Original Message - From: Matthew McCann PE To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 6:21 PM Subject: CSDetecting Silver In The Blood Hi, Frank! The Herxheimer reaction gives some evidence that something germicidal has made it into the bloodstream. This could be put on a quantitative basis by a bioassay procedure. A more compelling demonstration would be occurrence of a Herxheimer reaction following the transfusion of blood to recipient who had not ingested EIS, from a donor who had ingested EIS. This, of course, would not prove the silver was still ionized. But it would prove that a germicidal agent existed in the bloodstream. Best regards, Matthew -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
