Re: CSSolutions Colloids Ions...was CS information needed
of the colloid. How many ions are trapped depends strongly on the formation process (in our case the current and the voltage). The faster a colloid is formed (the faster they lump together), the more ions may be caught. This means stronger repulsion, and thermal motion is not able to let collide and merge 2 particles, smaller colloids result. (Ions left over in the process are transported to the corresponding electrode and are discharged: H+ travel to the cathode and form hydrogen gas, OH- travel to the anode and are attached to Ag atoms. Two AgOH will be transformed to 2 AgO, see above). The electric field of the particle certainly attracts water dipoles which form a layer on the surface and helps to prevent a reaction if 2 particles bounce together. Water molecules have a net charge of zero. They can not neutralize the electric field of the colloid. Colloids are very loosely bound giant molecules, which contain many water molecules (like hydrates), and which are very fragile. They are like a sponge, and this makes them so reactive. A silver spoon has only one surface, the outer one. But the silver atoms in a colloid can also be approached (by proteins? by germs?) from the inside. One says that a colloid has a large inner surface. Because of their fragile structure, the thermal motion will permanently change the shape of the colloid. Water molecules will escape and the colloid may collapse, the inner surface shrinks. Therefore sols (colloidal suspensions) of different batches and different age will certainly behave differently. Colloids are different from bulk material. They are much more delicate. The inner bonds contain many weak physical Van-der-Waals-bonds and not only strong chemical heteropolar or homeopolar bonds. Colloidal solutions age. What is better, colloids from atomic silver or from silver hydroxide, small or large particles, young or old, I don't know. There are too many parameters which are playing a role. This is the reason I guess, that CS is not systematically investigated. More: Lasers to evaporate silver have to be very powerful. Such devices are much larger then your laser pointer, normally they work in the ultraviolet and are used to cut metal sheets or are used in surgery, and are too dangerous for the public. I hope, my lengthy excursion is still readable and that I have answered your questions good enough. If I didn't do it properly, please repeat your questions again or put new ones. Günter James Osbourne, Holmes schrieb: This is incomprehensible in this form. I am adjusting the formatting and sending it around again. -Original Message- From: James Osbourne, Holmes [SMTP:a...@trail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 8:45 PM To: 'silver-list@eskimo.com' Subject:RE: CSSolutions Colloids Ions...was CS information needed Reply in your text. -Original Message- From: Guenter Poelz [SMTP:po...@mail.desy.de] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 4:11 AM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject:Re: CSSolutions Colloids Ions...was CS information needed Guenter:Hello, let me contribute with what I have learned in chemistry. Many things have been stated already many times in this list. I will try to clarify some statements: Ions and colloidal particles both are charged, but they are different. - Metallic ions are formed when one or more electrons are stripped from the outer surface of the uncharged metallic atom. Such an ion is then positively charged. (It is also possible, but much more difficult, to attach an ion to a metallic atom to generate a negatively charged ion). Ions are also often formed by breaking a molecule into two radicals. If the electrons are unevenly divided, one part (with too much electrons) becomes a negative ion, the other one (with lacking electrons) becomes a positive one. Water is an excellent medium to penetrate into salt molecules and breaks it into ions (kitchen-salt NaCl is broken into Na+ and Cl-; also water itself H2O breaks into H+ and OH- ). JOH: Thanks. G:- Colloidal particles are formed by uncharged atoms or molecules. In the formation process they lump together, bound loosely e.g. by water bridges, but can fasten the bonds by chemical activity. These giant molecules are formed so quickly that H+ or OH- (depending on the kind of colloid) are caught and also built into the loose structure and gives the colloidal particle its charge. JOH: Would you call that a hydrated silver, or is it a different thing when the hydroxyl and the proton are separated? Do you know where I can learn about the geometry of this substance? If there were not an equal number of both bound into a given group, you could have an Ag sol with a negative charge as well as a positive charge. That would make some of them stick together? G: What does this mean for our CS? With low voltage direct current (LVDC) we detach silver ions from the silver rod connected
Re: CSSolutions Colloids Ions...was CS information needed
Once I made LVDC CS with big particle size (brown solution) and I added ascorbic acid (vitamin C). The solution became immediately black and the next day a black powder has settled down. I didn't do any chemical analysis but from the good electrical conductivity I guessed it is metallic silver, formed by the reduction of the colloidal silver. Last time I was in New York City, I bought some 500ppm CS from Vitamin Shoppe (I've also used their web site, which is very good but it never had CS for some reason. ) The label said that it was made with only distilled water and silver, no additives. At one point, I put some of this solution into a small plastic spray bottle. Within an hour, the normally dark amber solution had turned perfectly clear, with a very small grey sediment on the bottom of the bottle. . . very delicate stuff. I didn't have the sediment tested but I assume it was silver because I got good results from the product. The manufacturer was The Amino Acids and Botanical Company or something close to that. cheers -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@id.net
RE: CSSolutions Colloids Ions...was CS information needed
Reply in your text. -Original Message- From: Guenter Poelz [SMTP:po...@mail.desy.de] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 4:11 AM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject:Re: CSSolutions Colloids Ions...was CS information needed Hello, let me contribute with what I have learned in chemistry. Many things have been stated already many times in this list. I will try to clarify some statements: Ions and colloidal particles both are charged, but they are different. - Metallic ions are formed when one or more electrons are stripped from the outer surface of the uncharged metallic atom. Such an ion is then positively charged. (It is also possible, but much more difficult, to attach an ion to a metallic atom to generate a negatively charged ion). Ions are also often formed by breaking a molecule into two radicals. If the electrons are unevenly divided, one part (with too much electrons) becomes a negative ion, the other one (with lacking electrons) becomes a positive one. Water is an excellent medium to penetrate into salt molecules and breaks it into ions (kitchen-salt NaCl is broken into Na+ and Cl-; also water itself H2O breaks into H+ and OH- ). Thanks. - Colloidal particles are formed by uncharged atoms or molecules. In the formation process they lump together, bound loosely e.g. by water bridges, but can fasten the bonds by chemical activity. These giant molecules are formed so quickly that H+ or OH- (depending on the kind of colloid) are caught and also built into the loose structure and gives the colloidal particle its charge. Would you call that a hydrated silver, or is it a different thing when the hydroxyl and the proton are separated? Do you know where I can learn about the geometry of this substance? If there were not an equal number of both bound into a given group, you could have an Ag sol with a negative charge as well as a positive charge. That would make some of them stick together? What does this mean for our CS? With low voltage direct current (LVDC) we detach silver ions from the silver rod connected to the (positive) anode. In our solution we have then silver ions Ag+, H+ and OH-. But when the Ag+ travel through the water, some of them recombine with the OH- and form neutral AgOH molecules. These molecules now lump together and include H+ ions. These positively charged colloids repel each other and prevent the formation of larger particles or even precipitation of the whole stuff. What happens to the ones which have more H+ or OH- when they meet their complement? Some Ag sol particles precipitate. When the individual ions come off the electrode, what causes some of them to clump into large clusters and others clump into small clusters? The faster the colloids are formed Are you talking about the rate they leave the electrode, or the rate they form into clumps with protons and OHs? the more H+ ions are included, the stronger is the repulsion which leads to smaller colloids. What happens to the Ohs left over from the H+ being bound with the silver? Adding salts to a colloidal solution means adding of foreign ions So, it is an immigration problem! which are attached to the colloids and disturb the repulsion. Precipitation will result. I don't know about that, but I do know that high currents will make Ag particles which will precipitate without much of anything else in the water. I think with LVDC we generate colloidal silver oxide which is formed from the AgOH by chemical transformation. Isn't silver oxide relatively insoluble in water? This would leave a lot of protons. The sol would become acid? If one wants to generate metallic colloids one has to use a different process: One has to evaporate metallic silver by sparking under water, by evaporating silver with a energetic laser beam, by ultrasound etc. These silver atoms, dispersed in water, also lump together, but typically include OH- ions. Are any of the folks on the list building the laser devices? Will they work with 3 9V batteries? To improve the insulation of the colloids from each other, and not only rely on the electric repulsion, some companies manage to cover the colloids with a skin of organic compounds, e.g. proteins. To what group of colloids the HVDC or HVAC CS is belonging, I have no idea. Hopefully this helps to clarify, Thanks, I will have to think about this more. JOH Gunter James Osbourne, Holmes schrieb: Thanks for the clarification Ian. You're the last clause of your statement:, The manner of creating ions by electrolysis is well researched and straight forward, if not fully understood. , certainly applies to me. My comments to excerpts from your last post: Ian: The manner of creating ions by electrolysis is well researched and straight forward, if not fully understood. One would need to add protons to create a positive charge, which would create a different element? Hydrogen ions (protons) have a positive charge
RE: CSSolutions Colloids Ions...was CS information needed
This is incomprehensible in this form. I am adjusting the formatting and sending it around again. -Original Message- From: James Osbourne, Holmes [SMTP:a...@trail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 8:45 PM To: 'silver-list@eskimo.com' Subject:RE: CSSolutions Colloids Ions...was CS information needed Reply in your text. -Original Message- From: Guenter Poelz [SMTP:po...@mail.desy.de] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 4:11 AM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject:Re: CSSolutions Colloids Ions...was CS information needed Guenter:Hello, let me contribute with what I have learned in chemistry. Many things have been stated already many times in this list. I will try to clarify some statements: Ions and colloidal particles both are charged, but they are different. - Metallic ions are formed when one or more electrons are stripped from the outer surface of the uncharged metallic atom. Such an ion is then positively charged. (It is also possible, but much more difficult, to attach an ion to a metallic atom to generate a negatively charged ion). Ions are also often formed by breaking a molecule into two radicals. If the electrons are unevenly divided, one part (with too much electrons) becomes a negative ion, the other one (with lacking electrons) becomes a positive one. Water is an excellent medium to penetrate into salt molecules and breaks it into ions (kitchen-salt NaCl is broken into Na+ and Cl-; also water itself H2O breaks into H+ and OH- ). JOH: Thanks. G:- Colloidal particles are formed by uncharged atoms or molecules. In the formation process they lump together, bound loosely e.g. by water bridges, but can fasten the bonds by chemical activity. These giant molecules are formed so quickly that H+ or OH- (depending on the kind of colloid) are caught and also built into the loose structure and gives the colloidal particle its charge. JOH: Would you call that a hydrated silver, or is it a different thing when the hydroxyl and the proton are separated? Do you know where I can learn about the geometry of this substance? If there were not an equal number of both bound into a given group, you could have an Ag sol with a negative charge as well as a positive charge. That would make some of them stick together? G: What does this mean for our CS? With low voltage direct current (LVDC) we detach silver ions from the silver rod connected to the (positive) anode. In our solution we have then silver ions Ag+, H+ and OH-. But when the Ag+ travel through the water, some of them recombine with the OH- and form neutral AgOH molecules. These molecules now lump together and include H+ ions. These positively charged colloids repel each other and prevent the formation of larger particles or even precipitation of the whole stuff. JOH: What happens to the ones which have more H+ or OH- when they meet their complement? Some Ag sol particles precipitate. When the individual ions come off the electrode, what causes some of them to clump into large clusters and others clump into small clusters? G: The faster the colloids are formed JOH: Are you talking about the rate they leave the electrode, or the rate they form into clumps with protons and OHs? the more H+ ions are included, the stronger is the repulsion which leads to smaller colloids. What happens to the Ohs left over from the H+ being bound with the silver? G: Adding salts to a colloidal solution means adding of foreign ions JOH: So, it is an immigration problem! G: which are attached to the colloids and disturb the repulsion. Precipitation will result. JOH: I don't know about that, but I do know that high currents will make Ag particles which will precipitate without much of anything else in the water. G: I think with LVDC we generate colloidal silver oxide which is formed from the AgOH by chemical transformation. JOH: Isn't silver oxide relatively insoluble in water? This would leave a lot of protons. The sol would become acid? G: If one wants to generate metallic colloids one has to use a different process: One has to evaporate metallic silver by sparking under water, by evaporating silver with a energetic laser beam, by ultrasound etc. These silver atoms, dispersed in water, also lump together, but typically include OH- ions. JOH: Are any of the folks on the list building the laser devices? Will they work with 3 9V batteries? G: To improve the insulation of the colloids from each other, and not only rely on the electric repulsion, some companies manage to cover the colloids with a skin of organic compounds, e.g. proteins. To what group of colloids the HVDC or HVAC CS is belonging, I have no idea. Hopefully this helps to clarify, Gunter JOH: Thanks, I will have to think about this more. James Osbourne, Holmes schrieb: Thanks for the clarification Ian. You're the last clause of your statement:, The manner of creating ions
RE: CSSolutions Colloids Ions...was CS information needed
HI Guenter, Thanks for the discussion; it is looks very helpful at first scan. I will reply when I have time. James Osbourne, Holmes a...@trail.com -Original Message- From: Guenter Poelz [SMTP:po...@mail.desy.de] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 4:11 AM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject:Re: CSSolutions Colloids Ions...was CS information needed Hello, let me contribute with what I have learned in chemistry. Many things have been stated already many times in this list. I will try to clarify some statements: Ions and colloidal particles both are charged, but they are different. - Metallic ions are formed when one or more electrons are stripped from the outer surface of the uncharged metallic atom. Such an ion is then positively charged. (It is also possible, but much more difficult, to attach an ion to a metallic atom to generate a negatively charged ion). Ions are also often formed by breaking a molecule into two radicals. If the electrons are unevenly divided, one part (with too much electrons) becomes a negative ion, the other one (with lacking electrons) becomes a positive one. Water is an excellent medium to penetrate into salt molecules and breaks it into ions (kitchen-salt NaCl is broken into Na+ and Cl-; also water itself H2O breaks into H+ and OH- ). - Colloidal particles are formed by uncharged atoms or molecules. In the formation process they lump together, bound loosely e.g. by water bridges, but can fasten the bonds by chemical activity. These giant molecules are formed so quickly that H+ or OH- (depending on the kind of colloid) are caught and also built into the loose structure and gives the colloidal particle its charge. What does this mean for our CS? With low voltage direct current (LVDC) we detach silver ions from the silver rod connected to the (positive) anode. In our solution we have then silver ions Ag+, H+ and OH-. But when the Ag+ travel through the water, some of them recombine with the OH- and form neutral AgOH molecules. These molecules now lump together and include H+ ions. These positively charged colloids repel each other and prevent the formation of larger particles or even precipitation of the whole stuff. The faster the colloids are formed the more H+ ions are included, the stronger is the repulsion which leads to smaller colloids. Adding salts to a colloidal solution means adding of foreign ions which are attached to the colloids and disturb the repulsion. Precipitation will result. I think with LVDC we generate colloidal silver oxide which is formed from the AgOH by chemical transformation. If one wants to generate metallic colloids one has to use a different process: One has to evaporate metallic silver by sparking under water, by evaporating silver with a energetic laser beam, by ultrasound etc. These silver atoms, dispersed in water, also lump together, but typically include OH- ions. To improve the insulation of the colloids from each other, and not only rely on the electric repulsion, some companies manage to cover the colloids with a skin of organic compounds, e.g. proteins. To what group of colloids the HVDC or HVAC CS is belonging, I have no idea. Hopefully this helps to clarify, Gunter James Osbourne, Holmes schrieb: Thanks for the clarification Ian. You're the last clause of your statement:, The manner of creating ions by electrolysis is well researched and straight forward, if not fully understood. , certainly applies to me. My comments to excerpts from your last post: Ian: The manner of creating ions by electrolysis is well researched and straight forward, if not fully understood. One would need to add protons to create a positive charge, which would create a different element? Hydrogen ions (protons) have a positive charge and are unlikely to combine with silver (there are no silver hydrides). They are more likely to be reduced at the cathode as hydrogen gas. JOH: I am suggesting not that the proton enters the nucleus of a silver atom to create a new element, but that it may be somehow associated---is that vague enough?---with the metallic Ag cluster. Some of the hydrogen bubbles off at the electrode; some stays in solution as ionized water, balancing the pair of oxygen atoms. Isn't pH the log of the number of free protons in the solution? If the electrolysis current took an extra electron rather than donating on it would leave a proton. Could some of them be contributing to the plus charge on/around(?) the silver cluster? Ian: Silver Colloid particles are agrigates of either single silver ions (simple ions) creating complex ions, or simple ions and metallic atoms which will have a charge lower than the former. Monoatomic ions are reactive because of their size, multiatomic ions are able to accept more electrons per particle. JOH: What is the difference between a complex silver ion and a metallic silver colloid particle? Or, what is the difference between
RE: CSSolutions Colloids Ions...was CS information needed
Thanks for the clarification Ian. You're the last clause of your statement:, The manner of creating ions by electrolysis is well researched and straight forward, if not fully understood. , certainly applies to me. My comments to excerpts from your last post: Ian: The manner of creating ions by electrolysis is well researched and straight forward, if not fully understood. One would need to add protons to create a positive charge, which would create a different element? Hydrogen ions (protons) have a positive charge and are unlikely to combine with silver (there are no silver hydrides). They are more likely to be reduced at the cathode as hydrogen gas. JOH: I am suggesting not that the proton enters the nucleus of a silver atom to create a new element, but that it may be somehow associated---is that vague enough?---with the metallic Ag cluster. Some of the hydrogen bubbles off at the electrode; some stays in solution as ionized water, balancing the pair of oxygen atoms. Isn't pH the log of the number of free protons in the solution? If the electrolysis current took an extra electron rather than donating on it would leave a proton. Could some of them be contributing to the plus charge on/around(?) the silver cluster? Ian: Silver Colloid particles are agrigates of either single silver ions (simple ions) creating complex ions, or simple ions and metallic atoms which will have a charge lower than the former. Monoatomic ions are reactive because of their size, multiatomic ions are able to accept more electrons per particle. JOH: What is the difference between a complex silver ion and a metallic silver colloid particle? Or, what is the difference between multiatomic ions---and a colloid? If multiatomic ions are able to accept more electrons than a bit of metal, doesn't that make them more reactive? Is there a difference between a multiatomic silver ion and a charged metallic silver particle? Are we making some of both? Most everyone agrees that a silver salt, most certainly highly ionized, is more reactive that a silver colloidal particle. Is that so? I think the question I have when boiled down is: if a single-atom ion is a colloid, then what distinguishes it from a dissolved atom in solution? Thanks for your continuing instruction. Please be patient with my questions, they arise more from intuition than technical knowledge. And yes, I remain confused. James Osbourne, Holmes a...@trail.com -Original Message- From: Ivan Anderson [SMTP:i...@win.co.nz] Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 7:59 AM To: silver-list@eskimo.com Subject:CSSolutions Colloids Ions...was CS information needed - Original Message - From: James Osbourne, Holmes a...@trail.com HI everyone, Hi, Solution: A homogenous mixture that remains mixed indefinitely. Particle size... 0.01 to 1 nm Will not filter out. Will not reflect light (no Tyndal) Colloid: Heterogeneous mixture. Remain dispersed by molecular motion (Brownian) Particle size...1 to 1000 nm Reflects light. Ion: (Physics and chemistry) Atom, radical, molecule or aggregate that has lost or gained one or more electrons. (Biology and medicine) The dissolved part of a solution (solute) which exists as charged atoms or molecules. Once again, the issue of what is dissolved, ionic, or a charged colloidal particle arises. Bruce does think the silver made by his devices has a positive charge. He does not think the charge is generated in the same manner as the charge exists on a single Ag atom which is presenting its valence charge. There is no other way to create a positive charge other than removing electrons that I know of. I believe when Bruce speaks of ionic silver he means a single atom, dissolved in the water, with its outer shell receptive to bonding with another atom. A colloidal particle is positive, but not as reactive as the monoatomic silver. Pitty he does not speak *colloid science*. Silver Colloid particles are agrigates of either single silver ions (simple ions) creating complex ions, or simple ions and metallic atoms which will have a charge lower than the former. Monoatomic ions are reactive because of their size, multiatomic ions are able to accept more electrons per particle. How the positive charge is created is not know by me. Since charge is quantatized(sp?) Whilst an electron has a particular charge, the energy required to remove or gain one is different in each element, and the conductivity is therefore different also. The energy required to remove a second electron is much higher than to remove the first... an so on. , it means there is either a missing electron or an extra proton somewhere. Or, something else? Could an ionized hydrogen nucleus from the water be somehow stuck to the silver cluster? I wish I could go back to school... There is no need to complicate things James. The manner of creating ions by electrolysis is well researched and
