Re: CSWet weight?
Apparently, you think it is within the realm of possibility for
Neville to decant a volume of liquid repeatedly within an error of
less than 5 parts per million...
Dan
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 9:02 AM, Marshall mdud...@king-cart.com wrote:
OK, then you were actually measuring a change in density instead of weight.
That would likely have been an decrease in volume then instead of a decrease
in weight.
This could be cause by any of the following:
1. scale accuracy
2. scale repeatability
3. temperature difference in the liquids at time of measurment.
4. pipette accuracy/repeatibility
5. actual density reduction
Actual density reduction could be due to temperature variation or a change
in the structure in the water. For instance if water crystallizes when
freezing, the density will drop about 10%.
Marshall
On 2/28/2011 5:37 PM, Neville Munn wrote:
Hope this doesn't come thru twice, had to cut.
Yep, sure.
2 Different solutions used: (a) 19 days old @ 12.1uS/006-7ppm, (b) 3 days
old @ 18.5uS/009-010ppm.
Step 1: Ensure digital scale was zero'd and reading in grams. Praps I could
have used 'ct' or 'gs' {which I assume is 'grain'} or 'dwt' {don't know what
that is}
Step 2: Weigh empty 30ml plastic medicine cup.
Step 3: Syringe 5cc/ml plain DW into cup...weigh that, then subtracted cup
weight from DW.
Step 4: Empty and dry cup thoroughly.
Step 5: Syringe 5cc/ml EIS into cup...weight that, then subtracted cup
weight from EIS.
Step 6: Subtact this result from the other.
N.
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:52:56 -0500
From: mdud...@king-cart.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
CC: frankcuns-r...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: CSWet weight?
Can you elaborate a bit more on your procedure?
Marshall
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Re: CSWet weight?
I don't recall seeing anywhere the magnitude of the difference. However
that is addressed in #4 below as one of the possible sources of error.
That would be some useful information, or alternatively he should run a
series of measurements and produce a repeatability diagram. If he runs
say 10 measurements and they all lie within X of the mean, then he
does the same for the other and that mean is outside the mean +/- X of
the other, then he is likely outside the level of measurement error. Of
course to do it right, you mathematically compute the standard
deviation, then you can give the probability that the result is actual
or error.
Marshall
On 3/2/2011 9:55 AM, Dan Nave wrote:
Apparently, you think it is within the realm of possibility for
Neville to decant a volume of liquid repeatedly within an error of
less than 5 parts per million...
Dan
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 9:02 AM, Marshallmdud...@king-cart.com wrote:
OK, then you were actually measuring a change in density instead of weight.
That would likely have been an decrease in volume then instead of a decrease
in weight.
This could be cause by any of the following:
1. scale accuracy
2. scale repeatability
3. temperature difference in the liquids at time of measurment.
4. pipette accuracy/repeatibility
5. actual density reduction
Actual density reduction could be due to temperature variation or a change
in the structure in the water. For instance if water crystallizes when
freezing, the density will drop about 10%.
Marshall
On 2/28/2011 5:37 PM, Neville Munn wrote:
Hope this doesn't come thru twice, had to cut.
Yep, sure.
2 Different solutions used: (a) 19 days old @ 12.1uS/006-7ppm, (b) 3 days
old @ 18.5uS/009-010ppm.
Step 1: Ensure digital scale was zero'd and reading in grams. Praps I could
have used 'ct' or 'gs' {which I assume is 'grain'} or 'dwt' {don't know what
that is}
Step 2: Weigh empty 30ml plastic medicine cup.
Step 3: Syringe 5cc/ml plain DW into cup...weigh that, then subtracted cup
weight from DW.
Step 4: Empty and dry cup thoroughly.
Step 5: Syringe 5cc/ml EIS into cup...weight that, then subtracted cup
weight from EIS.
Step 6: Subtact this result from the other.
N.
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:52:56 -0500
From: mdud...@king-cart.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
CC: frankcuns-r...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: CSWet weight?
Can you elaborate a bit more on your procedure?
Marshall
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The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
Rules and Instructions: http://www.silverlist.org
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List Owner: Mike Devourmailto:mdev...@eskimo.com
RE: CSWet weight?
Dear Neville,
As Marshall has noted, one of your sources of error would be the
syringe... It is unlikely you can measure the 5 cc's of water
repeatedly to within the accuracy of the scale, let alone measure the
addition of a few micrograms of silver on a balance that is accurate
only to milligrams.
A good exercise would be to just measure out 5 cc's of distilled water
five different times and see how much variation you get within just
that operation alone.
If you're talking 10ppm CS, that's 10 milligrams of silver in a liter,
or 50 micrograms per 5 cc's. So, the difference in mass between 5 grams
of water and 5 grams of water PLUS 50 micrograms of silver would
probably be WAY less than your errors in measuring out the water,
totally apart from the resolution of the scale, which wouldn't be able
to even see the silver weight.
It's a worthwhile experiment, and can teach a lot about orders of
magnitude, and the precision and accuracy of measurments. These are
essential to all science.
Peace,
Mike D.
Hope this doesn't come thru twice, had to cut.
Yep, sure.
2 Different solutions used: (a) 19 days old @ 12.1uS/006-7ppm, (b) 3
days old @ 18.5uS/009-010ppm.
Step 1: Ensure digital scale was zero'd and reading in grams. Praps I
could have used 'ct' or 'gs' {which I assume is 'grain'} or 'dwt' {don't
know what that is} Step 2: Weigh empty 30ml plastic medicine cup. Step
3: Syringe 5cc/ml plain DW into cup...weigh that, then subtracted cup
weight from DW. Step 4: Empty and dry cup thoroughly. Step 5: Syringe
5cc/ml EIS into cup...weight that, then subtracted cup weight from EIS.
Step 6: Subtact this result from the other.
N.
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:52:56 -0500
From: mdud...@king-cart.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
CC: frankcuns-r...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: CSWet weight?
Can you elaborate a bit more on your procedure?
Marshall
[Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian]
[mdev...@eskimo.com]
[Speaking only for myself... ]
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RE: CSWet weight?
Hi there Mike, Yes, I considered after syringing several times on the very first day that, 1) On observing the meniscus of the liquid I realised it would be pretty difficult to determine that I have *exactly* 5cc's in the syringe, and repeat that *every* time I syringed, 2) How accurate the scale *actually* would be in this small range, 3) What variations could come into play with varying temperatures of water etc, and then to clinch it, 4) speaking to Tom, Marshall and Frank about it was the deciding factor. As you say though, it was still a worthwhile thing to do for me as no matter how naive my idea was it *did* teach me the orders of magnitude, and made me realise that this proved to be of little value in the scheme of things. Like I said earlier, it was an idea in principle, just didn't work in practice, but if one never never goes one never never knows. Far better to pick someone else's brain I spose, much easier, but then there's no challenge is there, and the lesson is not as well learnt as in doing it for oneself? That's the downside of not being an academic I guess...damn it, nevermind, that's what you people are for right? To bring us back on the straight and narrow if/when we stray too far g. Cheers N. From: mdev...@eskimo.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 17:35:23 -0500 Subject: RE: CSWet weight? Dear Neville, As Marshall has noted, one of your sources of error would be the syringe... It is unlikely you can measure the 5 cc's of water repeatedly to within the accuracy of the scale, let alone measure the addition of a few micrograms of silver on a balance that is accurate only to milligrams. A good exercise would be to just measure out 5 cc's of distilled water five different times and see how much variation you get within just that operation alone. If you're talking 10ppm CS, that's 10 milligrams of silver in a liter, or 50 micrograms per 5 cc's. So, the difference in mass between 5 grams of water and 5 grams of water PLUS 50 micrograms of silver would probably be WAY less than your errors in measuring out the water, totally apart from the resolution of the scale, which wouldn't be able to even see the silver weight. It's a worthwhile experiment, and can teach a lot about orders of magnitude, and the precision and accuracy of measurments. These are essential to all science. Peace, Mike D.
Re: CSWet weight?
OK, then you were actually measuring a change in density instead of
weight. That would likely have been an decrease in volume then instead
of a decrease in weight.
This could be cause by any of the following:
1. scale accuracy
2. scale repeatability
3. temperature difference in the liquids at time of measurment.
4. pipette accuracy/repeatibility
5. actual density reduction
Actual density reduction could be due to temperature variation or a
change in the structure in the water. For instance if water
crystallizes when freezing, the density will drop about 10%.
Marshall
On 2/28/2011 5:37 PM, Neville Munn wrote:
Hope this doesn't come thru twice, had to cut.
Yep, sure.
2 Different solutions used: (a) 19 days old @ 12.1uS/006-7ppm, (b) 3
days old @ 18.5uS/009-010ppm.
Step 1: Ensure digital scale was zero'd and reading in grams. Praps I
could have used 'ct' or 'gs' {which I assume is 'grain'} or 'dwt'
{don't know what that is}
Step 2: Weigh empty 30ml plastic medicine cup.
Step 3: Syringe 5cc/ml plain DW into cup...weigh that, then subtracted
cup weight from DW.
Step 4: Empty and dry cup thoroughly.
Step 5: Syringe 5cc/ml EIS into cup...weight that, then subtracted cup
weight from EIS.
Step 6: Subtact this result from the other.
N.
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:52:56 -0500
From: mdud...@king-cart.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
CC: frankcuns-r...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: CSWet weight?
Can you elaborate a bit more on your procedure?
Marshall
Re: CSWet weight?
On 2/28/2011 5:48 PM, Frank wrote: Marshall The predicted conversion of mass into energy occurs at extraordinary circumstances well beyond the point of our discussion. Actually it takes place at much lower energies, but the difference is too small to easily measure. Here are some figures for jollies: If compare the mass of a kg of water at 0 C and 100 C, we find the following 1. Additional energy that 1 KG of water at 100 has over 0 = 100,000 calories 2. 100,000 calories = 418,600 joules 3. using e=mc^2 we get: 418,000 = m*(3*10^8)^2 = m*9*10^16 4. Solving for m the mass we get m = 4.6511 picograms Marshall
Re: CSWet weight?
I am unclear if he is measuring weight (in actuality mass) or density.
Density certainly changes with temperature, but weight and mass does not
(ignoring Einstein). Is he starting with a certain weight of water,
adding silver, then reweighing? In that case the only thing I can think
of is evaporation has reduced the weight while making the silver. If on
the other hand he is measuring out a specific volume of water both
before and after, and using those weights, that would reflect a density
difference.
Can you elaborate a bit more on your procedure?
Marshall
On 2/26/2011 8:49 AM, Frank wrote:
Hi guys Forgive me for intruding but .The best analytical balances
have a sensitivity of 0.0001 gm. and an accuracy of +-0.0002. If you
are adding 5 parts per million of a compound with a specific gravity
of 11 (silver) to a liquid with a Spg of 1.0 (distilled water) , how
do you expect to pick up the difference in weight?
Weight does not change with temperature. Only the volume does.
Whether you “cluster” ions or not their weight does not change.
Vortexing water will not change the weight. But if you introduce air,
for example, you are changing the density and that is another matter.
Keep in mind that weight is a direct reflection of mass and mass does
not change with temperature, vortexing, etc.
Hope it helps
Frank
*From:* Neville Munn mailto:one.red...@hotmail.com
*Sent:* Friday, February 25, 2011 7:47 PM
*To:* silver-list@eskimo.com mailto:silver-list@eskimo.com
*Subject:* RE: CSWet weight?
I'm fairly confident the measurements are right. I went through the
same exercise this morning and although measurements are different
today from yesterday the scales DO pick up differences in weight, of
that I have no doubt.
However, I suspect this is not a successful way of doing things due to
several factors just off the top of my head:
a) Temperature of medicine cup may increase with manual handling,
which in turn will heat water/solution contained within {can only
afford to do the procedure once}?
b) Although temperature of EIS is the same today as yesterday the
plain DW may not be? {failed to measure plain DW temperature and used
DW temp from yesterday}
c) Water temperature may rise during the time measurements are taken.
{again, manual handling of cup, containers, syringe and day temp
rising praps}
d) There may be some weight differences between Ag ions and ion
cluster characteristics which may be influencing results? *this is
probly an unknown*
e) I have been vortexing the water prior to production in recent
batches. Would now need to make a few batches without vortexing the
water and see what difference there is...if any? {probly won't bother
as I don't think my weighing exercise was of any use}.
Although the scales do pick up differences in weight I don't believe
this method is at all useful due to aforesaid factors. I say this
because as an example, the medicine cup weighs more today than
yesterday {room temperature may be heating things a tad?}. Just too
many external influences and variables that can affect results to be
of any practical use.
The idea seemed good in principal, but I don't think it works in
practice, nevermind, if one never never goes one never never knows.
If nothing else it's made me question any possible differences there
may be between weight characteristics of Ag ions in solution and ion
clusters {particles} in solution...if any?
N.
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:20:53 -0500
From: mdud...@king-cart.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CSWet weight?
How confident are you of your measurements? Basic chemistry says that
water with silver in it should have a density which is higher, not
lower than distilled water. However there have been a number of
reports that nanosilver structures water, sort of like homeopathy. If
that is the case, then any restructuring, or crystalization of the
water would be expected to have an effect on the density. If your
measurements are indeed correct, this may be confirmation of those
reports.
Marshall
Re: CSWet weight?
Marshall The predicted conversion of mass into energy occurs at extraordinary
circumstances well beyond the point of our discussion.
There are several issues at work here. I would like to address them so we put
the matter to rest.
The issue is one of sensitivity or the capacity of any balance to detect such a
minute change in weigh. As I explain below, the change in weight is so
minuscule that no balance will be able to detect it. The second issue is one of
repeatability. The repeatability (the capacity of any instrument to reproduce
the same result from the same experiment) of a balance is at best half of its
accuracy (purported in this case to be 0.001 g). So, at best, if your repeat
the same weighing you are bound to obtain results within a margin of error of
0.0005 g. However, if you add 5 g of silver (SpG 11) to 95 gm of water, you
still have one million gms. with a volume of 95 ml because the silver
occupies the molecular interstitial space and thus the increase in volume is
negligible. The SpG of this suspension would then be 1.05 g/ml. So you
would trying to compare the weight of water (1.00 gm) with the weight of a
5 ppm suspension (1.05 gm ) As you can see well beyond the detection limit
of any commercial balance.
Finally, I would also like to remind you that the fact that a balance can read
up 0.001 gm does not assure you that the accuracy will be 0.001 g. One thing is
the readability another thing is the accuracy.
Marshall, I do appreciate the discussion. Hope I was of help.
Cheers
Frank
From: Marshall
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 12:52 PM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Cc: Frank
Subject: Re: CSWet weight?
I am unclear if he is measuring weight (in actuality mass) or density. Density
certainly changes with temperature, but weight and mass does not (ignoring
Einstein). Is he starting with a certain weight of water, adding silver, then
reweighing? In that case the only thing I can think of is evaporation has
reduced the weight while making the silver. If on the other hand he is
measuring out a specific volume of water both before and after, and using those
weights, that would reflect a density difference.
Can you elaborate a bit more on your procedure?
Marshall
On 2/26/2011 8:49 AM, Frank wrote:
Hi guys Forgive me for intruding but .The best analytical balances have a
sensitivity of 0.0001 gm. and an accuracy of +-0.0002. If you are adding 5
parts per million of a compound with a specific gravity of 11 (silver) to a
liquid with a Spg of 1.0 (distilled water) , how do you expect to pick up the
difference in weight?
Weight does not change with temperature. Only the volume does.
Whether you “cluster” ions or not their weight does not change.
Vortexing water will not change the weight. But if you introduce air, for
example, you are changing the density and that is another matter.
Keep in mind that weight is a direct reflection of mass and mass does not
change with temperature, vortexing, etc.
Hope it helps
Frank
From: Neville Munn
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 7:47 PM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: CSWet weight?
I'm fairly confident the measurements are right. I went through the same
exercise this morning and although measurements are different today from
yesterday the scales DO pick up differences in weight, of that I have no doubt.
However, I suspect this is not a successful way of doing things due to
several factors just off the top of my head:
a) Temperature of medicine cup may increase with manual handling, which in
turn will heat water/solution contained within {can only afford to do the
procedure once}?
b) Although temperature of EIS is the same today as yesterday the plain DW
may not be? {failed to measure plain DW temperature and used DW temp from
yesterday}
c) Water temperature may rise during the time measurements are taken. {again,
manual handling of cup, containers, syringe and day temp rising praps}
d) There may be some weight differences between Ag ions and ion cluster
characteristics which may be influencing results? *this is probly an unknown*
e) I have been vortexing the water prior to production in recent batches.
Would now need to make a few batches without vortexing the water and see what
difference there is...if any? {probly won't bother as I don't think my weighing
exercise was of any use}.
Although the scales do pick up differences in weight I don't believe this
method is at all useful due to aforesaid factors. I say this because as an
example, the medicine cup weighs more today than yesterday {room temperature
may be heating things a tad?}. Just too many external influences and variables
that can affect results to be of any practical use.
The idea seemed good in principal, but I don't think it works in practice,
nevermind, if one never never goes one never never knows. If nothing else it's
made me question
RE: CSWet weight?
Yep, sure.
2 Different solutions used: (a) 19 days old @ 12.1uS/006-7ppm, (b) 3 days old @
18.5uS/009-010ppm.
Step 1: Ensure digital scale was zero'd and reading in grams. Praps I could
have used 'ct' or 'gs' {which I assume is 'grain'} or 'dwt' {don't know what
that is}
Step 2: Weigh empty 30ml plastic medicine cup.
Step 3: Syringe 5cc/ml plain DW into cup...weigh that, then subtracted cup
weight from DW.
Step 4: Empty and dry cup thoroughly.
Step 5: Syringe 5cc/ml EIS into cup...weight that, then subtracted cup weight
from EIS.
Step 6: Subtact this result from the other.
Whilst the scale did register differences, I gave it considerable thought after
speaking here I decided this excercise was too 'iffy' to be of any real value.
It did indicate something however, but what that 'something' was I could not
determine due to aforesaid reasonings.
N.
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:52:56 -0500
From: mdud...@king-cart.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
CC: frankcuns-r...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: CSWet weight?
I am unclear if he is measuring weight (in actuality mass) or density. Density
certainly changes with temperature, but weight and mass does not (ignoring
Einstein). Is he starting with a certain weight of water, adding silver, then
reweighing? In that case the only thing I can think of is evaporation has
reduced the weight while making the silver. If on the other hand he is
measuring out a specific volume of water both before and after, and using those
weights, that would reflect a density difference.
Can you elaborate a bit more on your procedure?
Marshall
RE: CSWet weight?
Hope this doesn't come thru twice, had to cut.
Yep, sure.
2 Different solutions used: (a) 19 days old @ 12.1uS/006-7ppm, (b) 3 days old @
18.5uS/009-010ppm.
Step 1: Ensure digital scale was zero'd and reading in grams. Praps I could
have used 'ct' or 'gs' {which I assume is 'grain'} or 'dwt' {don't know what
that is}
Step 2: Weigh empty 30ml plastic medicine cup.
Step 3: Syringe 5cc/ml plain DW into cup...weigh that, then subtracted cup
weight from DW.
Step 4: Empty and dry cup thoroughly.
Step 5: Syringe 5cc/ml EIS into cup...weight that, then subtracted cup weight
from EIS.
Step 6: Subtact this result from the other.
N.
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:52:56 -0500
From: mdud...@king-cart.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
CC: frankcuns-r...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: CSWet weight?
Can you elaborate a bit more on your procedure?
Marshall
Re: CSWet weight?
Thanks Neville,
Most balances these days are built around a strain gauge, an electronic gizmo
based on piezo-electrics. They are extremely sensitive and accurate in relation
to the old springs. I do not know what scale/balance you have but regardless,
all I am saying is that weight does not change with temperature.
The Spg of any liquid changes with temperature because the volume changes, not
because the weight changes.
Hooke’s law governing springs’ elasticity does not account for changes in
temperature but I do take your word for it that there is some deviation.
If you have a suspension of 5 ppm of silver (Spg 11) in water, there is no way
that you can pick up the change in ppm at that level with a 0.001 g scale o
even a 0.1 g. balance.
Consider the orders of magnitude you are dealing with. They are way too small
to be detected by weight.
Cheers
Frank
From: Neville Munn
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 6:40 PM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: CSWet weight?
No intrusion Frank.
Just had a light bulb moment! I believe I see what Tom was referring to about
'scale inaccuracies'. Temperature could affect the accuracy of the scales
{digital} which could result in differing weight readings? I can only assume
scales of this nature would have a spring or such operating it, therefore the
tension or compression of that spring would change with air temperature, and in
measuring on such a small scale as this, ie, down to 0.001g, it would make it
difficult to get any accuracy at all...Yes/No? If one were to do this with any
degree of accuracy one would need to use a 'balance' scale, whilst trying to
maintain a constant water temperature.
You've got me thinking now though. The SG of water changes with temperature
doesn't it? Which means the weight of the solute may not change, as you say,
but the weight of the water would...Yes/No? If this is the case, then in
effect I'm measuring the weight of water more than anything else...Yes/No?
Sorry, but I think it best if I back out of this now cos I'm no physics
professor and I'm going to rapidly get out of my depth here. Praps *I* was the
one intruding in the first place g.
Still, I guess I learnt something from it...the scales go back in the cupboard!
N.
From: frankcuns-r...@comcast.net
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CSWet weight?
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 08:49:32 -0500
Hi guys Forgive me for intruding but .The best analytical balances have a
sensitivity of 0.0001 gm. and an accuracy of +-0.0002. If you are adding 5
parts per million of a compound with a specific gravity of 11 (silver) to a
liquid with a Spg of 1.0 (distilled water) , how do you expect to pick up the
difference in weight?
Weight does not change with temperature. Only the volume does.
Whether you “cluster” ions or not their weight does not change.
Vortexing water will not change the weight. But if you introduce air, for
example, you are changing the density and that is another matter.
Keep in mind that weight is a direct reflection of mass and mass does not
change with temperature, vortexing, etc.
Hope it helps
Frank
From: Neville Munn
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 7:47 PM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: CSWet weight?
I'm fairly confident the measurements are right. I went through the same
exercise this morning and although measurements are different today from
yesterday the scales DO pick up differences in weight, of that I have no doubt.
However, I suspect this is not a successful way of doing things due to several
factors just off the top of my head:
a) Temperature of medicine cup may increase with manual handling, which in turn
will heat water/solution contained within {can only afford to do the procedure
once}?
b) Although temperature of EIS is the same today as yesterday the plain DW may
not be? {failed to measure plain DW temperature and used DW temp from yesterday}
c) Water temperature may rise during the time measurements are taken. {again,
manual handling of cup, containers, syringe and day temp rising praps}
d) There may be some weight differences between Ag ions and ion cluster
characteristics which may be influencing results? *this is probly an unknown*
e) I have been vortexing the water prior to production in recent batches.
Would now need to make a few batches without vortexing the water and see what
difference there is...if any? {probly won't bother as I don't think my weighing
exercise was of any use}.
Although the scales do pick up differences in weight I don't believe this
method is at all useful due to aforesaid factors. I say this because as an
example, the medicine cup weighs more today than yesterday {room temperature
may be heating things a tad?}. Just too many external influences and variables
that can affect results to be of any practical use.
The idea seemed good
Re: CSWet weight?
Hi guys Forgive me for intruding but .The best analytical balances have a
sensitivity of 0.0001 gm. and an accuracy of +-0.0002. If you are adding 5
parts per million of a compound with a specific gravity of 11 (silver) to a
liquid with a Spg of 1.0 (distilled water) , how do you expect to pick up the
difference in weight?
Weight does not change with temperature. Only the volume does.
Whether you “cluster” ions or not their weight does not change.
Vortexing water will not change the weight. But if you introduce air, for
example, you are changing the density and that is another matter.
Keep in mind that weight is a direct reflection of mass and mass does not
change with temperature, vortexing, etc.
Hope it helps
Frank
From: Neville Munn
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 7:47 PM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: CSWet weight?
I'm fairly confident the measurements are right. I went through the same
exercise this morning and although measurements are different today from
yesterday the scales DO pick up differences in weight, of that I have no doubt.
However, I suspect this is not a successful way of doing things due to several
factors just off the top of my head:
a) Temperature of medicine cup may increase with manual handling, which in turn
will heat water/solution contained within {can only afford to do the procedure
once}?
b) Although temperature of EIS is the same today as yesterday the plain DW may
not be? {failed to measure plain DW temperature and used DW temp from yesterday}
c) Water temperature may rise during the time measurements are taken. {again,
manual handling of cup, containers, syringe and day temp rising praps}
d) There may be some weight differences between Ag ions and ion cluster
characteristics which may be influencing results? *this is probly an unknown*
e) I have been vortexing the water prior to production in recent batches.
Would now need to make a few batches without vortexing the water and see what
difference there is...if any? {probly won't bother as I don't think my weighing
exercise was of any use}.
Although the scales do pick up differences in weight I don't believe this
method is at all useful due to aforesaid factors. I say this because as an
example, the medicine cup weighs more today than yesterday {room temperature
may be heating things a tad?}. Just too many external influences and variables
that can affect results to be of any practical use.
The idea seemed good in principal, but I don't think it works in practice,
nevermind, if one never never goes one never never knows. If nothing else it's
made me question any possible differences there may be between weight
characteristics of Ag ions in solution and ion clusters {particles} in
solution...if any?
N.
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:20:53 -0500
From: mdud...@king-cart.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CSWet weight?
How confident are you of your measurements? Basic chemistry says that water
with silver in it should have a density which is higher, not lower than
distilled water. However there have been a number of reports that nanosilver
structures water, sort of like homeopathy. If that is the case, then any
restructuring, or crystalization of the water would be expected to have an
effect on the density. If your measurements are indeed correct, this may be
confirmation of those reports.
Marshall
RE: CSWet weight?
No intrusion Frank.
Just had a light bulb moment! I believe I see what Tom was referring to about
'scale inaccuracies'. Temperature could affect the accuracy of the scales
{digital} which could result in differing weight readings? I can only assume
scales of this nature would have a spring or such operating it, therefore the
tension or compression of that spring would change with air temperature, and in
measuring on such a small scale as this, ie, down to 0.001g, it would make it
difficult to get any accuracy at all...Yes/No? If one were to do this with any
degree of accuracy one would need to use a 'balance' scale, whilst trying to
maintain a constant water temperature.
You've got me thinking now though. The SG of water changes with temperature
doesn't it? Which means the weight of the solute may not change, as you say,
but the weight of the water would...Yes/No? If this is the case, then in
effect I'm measuring the weight of water more than anything else...Yes/No?
Sorry, but I think it best if I back out of this now cos I'm no physics
professor and I'm going to rapidly get out of my depth here. Praps *I* was the
one intruding in the first place g.
Still, I guess I learnt something from it...the scales go back in the cupboard!
N.
From: frankcuns-r...@comcast.net
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CSWet weight?
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 08:49:32 -0500
Hi guys Forgive me for intruding but .The best analytical balances have a
sensitivity of 0.0001 gm. and an accuracy of +-0.0002. If you are adding 5
parts per million of a compound with a specific gravity of 11 (silver) to a
liquid with a Spg of 1.0 (distilled water) , how do you expect to pick up the
difference in weight?
Weight does not change with temperature. Only the volume does.
Whether you “cluster” ions or not their weight does not change.
Vortexing water will not change the weight. But if you introduce air, for
example, you are changing the density and that is another matter.
Keep in mind that weight is a direct reflection of mass and mass does not
change with temperature, vortexing, etc.
Hope it helps
Frank
From: Neville Munn
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 7:47 PM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: CSWet weight?
I'm fairly confident the measurements are right. I went through the same
exercise this morning and although measurements are different today from
yesterday the scales DO pick up differences in weight, of that I have no doubt.
However, I suspect this is not a successful way of doing things due to several
factors just off the top of my head:
a) Temperature of medicine cup may increase with manual handling, which in turn
will heat water/solution contained within {can only afford to do the procedure
once}?
b) Although temperature of EIS is the same today as yesterday the plain DW may
not be? {failed to measure plain DW temperature and used DW temp from yesterday}
c) Water temperature may rise during the time measurements are taken. {again,
manual handling of cup, containers, syringe and day temp rising praps}
d) There may be some weight differences between Ag ions and ion cluster
characteristics which may be influencing results? *this is probly an unknown*
e) I have been vortexing the water prior to production in recent batches.
Would now need to make a few batches without vortexing the water and see what
difference there is...if any? {probly won't bother as I don't think my weighing
exercise was of any use}.
Although the scales do pick up differences in weight I don't believe this
method is at all useful due to aforesaid factors. I say this because as an
example, the medicine cup weighs more today than yesterday {room temperature
may be heating things a tad?}. Just too many external influences and variables
that can affect results to be of any practical use.
The idea seemed good in principal, but I don't think it works in practice,
nevermind, if one never never goes one never never knows. If nothing else it's
made me question any possible differences there may be between weight
characteristics of Ag ions in solution and ion clusters {particles} in
solution...if any?
N.
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:20:53 -0500
From: mdud...@king-cart.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CSWet weight?
How confident are you of your measurements? Basic chemistry says that water
with silver in it should have a density which is higher, not lower than
distilled water. However there have been a number of reports that nanosilver
structures water, sort of like homeopathy. If that is the case, then any
restructuring, or crystalization of the water would be expected to have an
effect on the density. If your measurements are indeed correct, this may be
confirmation of those reports.
Marshall
Re: CSWet weight?
How confident are you of your measurements? Basic chemistry says that
water with silver in it should have a density which is higher, not lower
than distilled water. However there have been a number of reports that
nanosilver structures water, sort of like homeopathy. If that is the
case, then any restructuring, or crystalization of the water would be
expected to have an effect on the density. If your measurements are
indeed correct, this may be confirmation of those reports.
Marshall
On 2/24/2011 5:38 PM, Neville Munn wrote:
Could someone kindly help me out here?
I've been playing around with some small jewellers scales {0.001g up
to 10g} test weighing some EIS and found I have already observed one
EIS solution that actually weighs *less* than plain DW...???
How can this be so?
Or is this where Density or Specific Gravity of silver comes in, which
I believe is 10.5 {and this is probly SG of powdered silver as well,
not the same form of silver that we produce using electrolysis?} Or
perhaps it indicates different characteristics of ions and/or atomic
ion clusters in solution.
If this is where 'mole' weight comes in then I'll just stick those
scales back in the cupboard again and won't bother going any further
cos that's *well* over my capacity of chemistry/physics understanding.
I'm aware this is a bit of a cowboy method of measuring, and probly
won't be 100% accurate, but the scales DO indicate something with a
couple of different solutions I've played around with, which means
they certainly appear to be good enough for my exercise.
N.
RE: CSWet weight?
Hello Neville,
I think you are seeing inaccuracies in your measurements, and/or some drift
in the scale.
I think you may need a pretty concentrated solution to measure the
difference in weight in a small sample. Keep in mind that a 1%
concentration is 1 PPM. If you were able to measure 0.001g at 5000 g
total, and had a highly concentrated sample, you may be able to see a
difference in weight.
Tom
From: Neville Munn [mailto:one.red...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2011 2:39 PM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: CSWet weight?
Could someone kindly help me out here?
I've been playing around with some small jewellers scales {0.001g up to 10g}
test weighing some EIS and found I have already observed one EIS solution
that actually weighs *less* than plain DW...???
How can this be so?
Or is this where Density or Specific Gravity of silver comes in, which I
believe is 10.5 {and this is probly SG of powdered silver as well, not the
same form of silver that we produce using electrolysis?} Or perhaps it
indicates different characteristics of ions and/or atomic ion clusters in
solution.
If this is where 'mole' weight comes in then I'll just stick those scales
back in the cupboard again and won't bother going any further cos that's
*well* over my capacity of chemistry/physics understanding.
I'm aware this is a bit of a cowboy method of measuring, and probly won't be
100% accurate, but the scales DO indicate something with a couple of
different solutions I've played around with, which means they certainly
appear to be good enough for my exercise.
N.
RE: CSWet weight?
I'm fairly confident the measurements are right. I went through the same
exercise this morning and although measurements are different today from
yesterday the scales DO pick up differences in weight, of that I have no doubt.
However, I suspect this is not a successful way of doing things due to several
factors just off the top of my head:
a) Temperature of medicine cup may increase with manual handling, which in turn
will heat water/solution contained within {can only afford to do the procedure
once}?
b) Although temperature of EIS is the same today as yesterday the plain DW may
not be? {failed to measure plain DW temperature and used DW temp from yesterday}
c) Water temperature may rise during the time measurements are taken. {again,
manual handling of cup, containers, syringe and day temp rising praps}
d) There may be some weight differences between Ag ions and ion cluster
characteristics which may be influencing results? *this is probly an unknown*
e) I have been vortexing the water prior to production in recent batches.
Would now need to make a few batches without vortexing the water and see what
difference there is...if any? {probly won't bother as I don't think my weighing
exercise was of any use}.
Although the scales do pick up differences in weight I don't believe this
method is at all useful due to aforesaid factors. I say this because as an
example, the medicine cup weighs more today than yesterday {room temperature
may be heating things a tad?}. Just too many external influences and variables
that can affect results to be of any practical use.
The idea seemed good in principal, but I don't think it works in practice,
nevermind, if one never never goes one never never knows. If nothing else it's
made me question any possible differences there may be between weight
characteristics of Ag ions in solution and ion clusters {particles} in
solution...if any?
N.
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:20:53 -0500
From: mdud...@king-cart.com
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CSWet weight?
How confident are you of your measurements? Basic chemistry says that water
with silver in it should have a density which is higher, not lower than
distilled water. However there have been a number of reports that nanosilver
structures water, sort of like homeopathy. If that is the case, then any
restructuring, or crystalization of the water would be expected to have an
effect on the density. If your measurements are indeed correct, this may be
confirmation of those reports.
Marshall
RE: CSWet weight?
Hi Tom,
As I just said to Marshall, I do believe the scales pick up on weight
differences, but due to those 'inaccuracy' factors I stated {and probly many
more?} I don't think the exercise was of any real value. Gave me something to
play around with and kept me out of mischief for a while if nothing else g.
N.
From: po...@prodigy.net
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: CSWet weight?
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 12:29:32 -0800
Hello Neville,
I think you are seeing inaccuracies in your measurements, and/or some drift in
the scale.
I think you may need a pretty concentrated solution to measure the difference
in weight in a small sample. Keep in mind that a 1% concentration is 1
PPM. If you were able to measure 0.001g at 5000 g total, and had a highly
concentrated sample, you may be able to see a difference in weight.
Tom
From: Neville Munn [mailto:one.red...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2011 2:39 PM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: CSWet weight?
Could someone kindly help me out here?
I've been playing around with some small jewellers scales {0.001g up to 10g}
test weighing some EIS and found I have already observed one EIS solution that
actually weighs *less* than plain DW...???
How can this be so?
Or is this where Density or Specific Gravity of silver comes in, which I
believe is 10.5 {and this is probly SG of powdered silver as well, not the same
form of silver that we produce using electrolysis?} Or perhaps it indicates
different characteristics of ions and/or atomic ion clusters in solution.
If this is where 'mole' weight comes in then I'll just stick those scales back
in the cupboard again and won't bother going any further cos that's *well* over
my capacity of chemistry/physics understanding.
I'm aware this is a bit of a cowboy method of measuring, and probly won't be
100% accurate, but the scales DO indicate something with a couple of different
solutions I've played around with, which means they certainly appear to be good
enough for my exercise.
N.
