Re: [Simh] DG Nova booting from another file or "device"?

2015-11-20 Thread Microtech Dart
"Are the other LUN file sizes off by the same 20,480 amount?"

Bruce, that is an excellent question!  I'm going to go through them and
figure that out.

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 1:52 AM, Bruce Ray  wrote:

> G'day AJ -
>
> The cylinder/head/sector information was determined by monitoring the
> tape-to-disk LUN backup operation disk reads - these were the actual
> cyls/hds/sects actually written for the corresponding LUN backups.
>
> I just did the following quick (hopefully correct) calculation:
>
> Each cylinder has 81,920 bytes (5 heads * 32 sectors * 512 bytes = 81,920
> bytes/cylinder), and LUN0 has 16 cylinders: 16 cylinders * 81,920
> bytes/cylinder = 1,310,720.
>
> Are the other LUN file sizes off by the same 20,480 amount?
>
>
> LUN CYL   HD  SEC
> ---   --  ---
> LUN 0:0,   0,   0disk start address
>   15,   4,  31disk end   address
>
> LUN 1:   15,   0,   0
>  111,   4,  31
>
> LUN 2:  112,   0,   0
>  223,   4,  31
>
> LUN3:   224,   0,   0
>  335,   4,  31
>
> LUN4:   336,   0,   0
>  441,   4,  31
>
>
> On 11/19/2015 11:48 PM, Microtech Dart wrote:
>
>> Bruce, I am curious about our calculations on LU0.
>>
>> According to your calculations:  'the LUN byte sizes can be calculated
>> from the previously-provided LUN "partition"'
>>
>> LUN 0:  1,310,720
>>
>> And then when I measure all the bytes in the blocks that make up the
>> second file on the backup tape (marked LU0, pos1; LU1, pos2; LU2, pos3),
>> where that 2nd file must be LU0, because the first file is the bootable
>> Minicom utility, then I count:
>>
>> 1,331,200 bytes.
>>
>> This is actually 20480 bytes larger than you calculate the LU0 partition
>> to be, or 5 blocks of 4096 bytes.
>>
>> This is SO close, yet it is off by that precise amount.  Can you think
>> of any reason why this might be the case?
>>
>> I ask, because I want to be sure that I am reconstructing the file from
>> the blocks correctly.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Bruce Ray > > wrote:
>>
>> G'day AJ -
>>
>> Creating a separate disk file that contains the contents of one of
>> the tape files is okay.  We can figuratively 'stitch" the files
>> together into a format compatible with SimH by using some of our own
>> utilities.
>>
>> Since the DiskUtility is transfers data on a block-for-block basis,
>> all tape records must be recognized even if the record contains
>> errors. Otherwise, the required relative position between tape and
>> disk "records" will become lost.  Error records can be indicated a
>> variety of ways, so
>>
>> According to a quick calculation, the LUN byte sizes can be
>> calculated from the previously-provided LUN "partition" info as:
>>
>> LUN 0:  1,310,720
>> LUN 1:  7,864,320
>> LUN 2:  9,175,040
>> LUN 3:  9,175,040
>> LUN 4:  8,683,520
>>
>> LUN 0, 1 and 2 can fit on boot tape according to DiscUtility hints,
>> LUN 3 and 4 fit on separate (2nd) backup tape.
>>
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>> On 11/18/2015 10:40 AM, Microtech Dart wrote:
>>
>> "What other file(s) am I missing?"  I haven't sent the other 3
>> LU files
>> on the tape yet.  Sorry, I should have made that more clear.
>> Also, I
>> didn't show the filemarks I was speaking of, that is where I
>> ended one
>> file and started the next, when I constructed them from the bits
>> on the
>> tape.
>>
>> Please keep in mind that I wrote the program that does this, so
>> the
>> method of what I'm doing here is understandably confusing...I
>> barely
>> understand it.
>>
>> There are a few block errors that I'm working on correcting in
>> each of
>> the files..  Shall I send those over to you even with the handful
>> of
>> block errors, or shall I continue to work on correcting them?
>>
>> I just looked at the first paragraph of your email...I'll read
>> the rest now.
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Bruce Ray > 
>> >> wrote:
>>
>>  G'day AJ -
>>
>>  There is only one program on the 'MinicomDiskUtility.bin'
>> file -
>>  there is no data beyond the 8KB (the file size is only).
>> There is no
>>  "filemark" or other pseudo-/meta- data that I detect in the
>> file,
>>  just a single stream of 4096 words (as appropriate for the DG
>>  word-oriented architecture [big-endian]).  What other
>> file(s) am I
>>  missing?
>>
>>
>>  Regardless, dissecting and running the utility reveals
>> further
>>  program assumptions:
>>
>>  The 40 MB disk drive has a geometry of 442 cyli

Re: [Simh] transferring files to and from v6 unix running in pdp11 emulator

2015-11-20 Thread Will Senn



On 11/20/15 4:07 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:

From: Will Senn 
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 10:35:06 -0600
How can I efficiently copy files from my host system to unix version 6
running in the pdp11 emulator and from unix 6 to my host system?

You have gotten a number of answers, but none of them strikes me as the
best method for what you want to do.

There is a raw 8-bit device (well, pair of devices) on the PDP-11 which
will do the trick:  The paper tape reader/punch.  Simply cat the file onto
a paper tape image, or cat it from a paper tape image into a file.  Won't
care whether it's text or binary.  Won't revise the content to match a
display (\t will stay \t).

I've used this in the past.  It works.

 Rich
___


Rich,

This looks like the easiest method for text so far. However, I am 
getting interesting results that I hope ring a bell for you or someone 
else listening in...


I edit a text file on the host
vi ptr.txt
Hello World

fire up the simulator and:
simh> attach ptr ptr.txt
simh> attach ptp ptp.txt
co

# cat > hello < /dev/ppt
# cat hello
Hello World

Yee ha, I can read from paper tape.

cat hello >  /dev/ppt

Bummer, nothing is written to ptp.txt. Well, as it turns out, the data 
is sent to the tape, but it doesn't appear in the file until I suspend 
the simulation with CTRL-E.


I tried sync's and waiting and no go. CTRL-E, immediately writes the 
file. Does this sound like expected behavior or perhaps a bug?


It still works, mind you. I don't really mind suspending the instance 
after a sync or two, but it isn't ideal.


Thanks,

Will
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Re: [Simh] {Spam?} transferring files to and from v6 unix running in pdp11 emulator

2015-11-20 Thread Will Senn



On 11/20/15 1:22 PM, Anders Magnusson wrote:

Den 2015-11-20 kl. 20:12, skrev Will Senn:



On 11/20/15 10:51 AM, Anders Magnusson wrote:

Den 2015-11-20 kl. 17:35, skrev Will Senn:

Hi,

I have searched and searched and have not found a satisfactory 
answer to this question:


How can I efficiently copy files from my host system to unix 
version 6 running in the pdp11 emulator and from unix 6 to my host 
system?

I usually do this by just tar'ing to/from a disk file, something like:

on pdp11: tar cf /dev/rxp0c myfiles
on host: tar xf simh-disk-file

Works both ways :-)

-- Ragge

Hi,

This sounded promising, but as it turns out there appear to be 2 
problems... 1. v6 doesn't have tar, and 2. it looks like v6 doesn't 
have rx device support (floppies). Are you using v6 with tweaks, or 
v7, or some other variant of unix?

Hm, it was some time ago, but I think it was tar.  Otherwise try cpio?
You do not have to use floppies.  rxp is the raw device for rp disks 
(avoids caching).  Just work against that file.


-- Ragge



Thanks. I combined a number or responses and came up with the following...


--From Unix v6 on PDP 11/40 SimH to Host:

create and attach an additional rk device:
simh> attach rk3 rk3
co

get a file of interest and note it's size in bytes:
# ls -l /etc/rc
-rw-rw-r--  1 bin90 Oct 10 12:32 /etc/rc

look at the od dump of the file for comparison later:
# od -c /etc/rc
000  r  m -  f /  e  t  c  /  m  t  a  b \n
020  /  e  t  c  /  u  p  d  a  t  e \n  /  e  t  c
040  /  m  o  u  n  t /  d  e  v  /  r  k  1
060  /  u  s  r  /  s  o  u  r  c  e \n  /  e  t  c
100  /  m  o  u  n  t /  d  e  v  /  r  k  2
120  /  u  s  r  /  d  o  c \n \n
132

write the file to the rk device (the sync may not be needed, but the 
result looks cleaner, also it doesn't apper that you can specify bs=1, 
device errors out):

# dd if=/etc/rc of=/dev/rrk03 conv=sync
0+1 records in
1+0 records out

exit the sim and then on the host, read from the rk image using bs=1 and 
count from the ls output:

$ dd if=rk3 of=rc bs=1 count=90
90+0 records in
90+0 records out

$ od -c rc
000r   m   -   f   /   e   t   c   /   m   t   a b  \n
020/   e   t   c   /   u   p   d   a   t   e  \n   /   e t   c
040/   m   o   u   n   t   /   d   e   v   /   r   k 1
060/   u   s   r   /   s   o   u   r   c   e  \n   /   e t   c
100/   m   o   u   n   t   /   d   e   v   /   r   k 2
120/   u   s   r   /   d   o   c  \n \n
132

This looks perfect, but I'm skeptical.


-- From Host to Unix v6 on PDP 11/40 SimH Host:

make a minor edit to the rc file (change m to n in the word mtab) and 
note it's size in bytes:

$ ls -l rc
-rw-r--r--  1 wsenn  staff  90 Nov 20 16:15 rc

it better be 90, unless I did something other than changing a letter

$ dd if=rc of=rk3 conv=sync
0+1 records in
1+0 records out
512 bytes transferred in 0.37 secs (13854733 bytes/sec)
note the count of blocks

with the number of blocks on hand, fire up the simulation
# dd if=/dev/rrk3 of=rc.dd count=1

because of the fact that I can't specify bs=1, the result is padded:
od -c rc.dd
000  r  m -  f /  e  t  c  /  n  t  a  b \n
020  /  e  t  c  /  u  p  d  a  t  e \n  /  e  t  c
040  /  m  o  u  n  t /  d  e  v  /  r  k  1
060  /  u  s  r  /  s  o  u  r  c  e \n  /  e  t  c
100  /  m  o  u  n  t /  d  e  v  /  r  k  2
120  /  u  s  r  /  d  o  c \n \n \0 \0 \0 \0 \0 \0
0001000

so, I read from the dd file with the number of bytes still in hand:
dd if=rc.dd of=rc bs=1 count=90
90+0 records in
90+0 records out

then diff the file against the original:
diff rc /etc/rc
1c1
* rm -f /etc/ntab
---
. rm -f /etc/mtab

Woohoo and whew! A lot of work, but file transfer in both directions. 
Does this approach seem sound to you or do you see some refinements that 
are possible/necessary?


Thanks,

Will






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Re: [Simh] transferring files to and from v6 unix running in pdp11 emulator

2015-11-20 Thread Rich Alderson
> From: Will Senn 
> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 10:35:06 -0600

> How can I efficiently copy files from my host system to unix version 6
> running in the pdp11 emulator and from unix 6 to my host system?

You have gotten a number of answers, but none of them strikes me as the
best method for what you want to do.

There is a raw 8-bit device (well, pair of devices) on the PDP-11 which
will do the trick:  The paper tape reader/punch.  Simply cat the file onto
a paper tape image, or cat it from a paper tape image into a file.  Won't
care whether it's text or binary.  Won't revise the content to match a
display (\t will stay \t).

I've used this in the past.  It works.

Rich
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Re: [Simh] transferring files to and from v6 unix running in pdp11 emulator

2015-11-20 Thread Clem Cole
On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Will Senn  wrote:

> Any ideas on how to preserve the tabs?


​uuencode the file first, then cat the result.  cat/paste the encoded file
and uudecode it on the other end.

This is always the safest way to preserve 8 bit binaries through different
systems, terminal handlers, ascii to ebcdic etc...

Clem
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Re: [Simh] transferring files to and from v6 unix running in pdp11 emulator

2015-11-20 Thread Will Senn



On 11/20/15 1:22 PM, Mark Pizzolato wrote:

On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Will Senn wrote:

On 11/20/15 10:51 AM, Anders Magnusson wrote:
Den 2015-11-20 kl. 17:35, skrev Will Senn:

I have searched and searched and have not found a satisfactory answer
to this question:

How can I efficiently copy files from my host system to unix version
6 running in the pdp11 emulator and from unix 6 to my host system?

I usually do this by just tar'ing to/from a disk file, something like:

on pdp11: tar cf /dev/rxp0c myfiles
on host: tar xf simh-disk-file

Works both ways :-)

-- Ragge

This sounded promising, but as it turns out there appear to be 2
problems... 1. v6 doesn't have tar, and 2. it looks like v6 doesn't have
rx device support (floppies). Are you using v6 with tweaks, or v7, or
some other variant of unix?

Well, the tar approach is certainly the most elegant and if tar was available, 
converting a raw tar file to a simh tape image back and forth is quite trivial 
if you've got a tape device...

So you may be reduced to cutting from the terminal session you are running the 
simulator in to get data from the simulator to the host (or the lpt approach 
you mentioned).

If you try the latest code at github.com/simh/simh, pasting into the console 
terminal or any other supported terminal will now work and you won't be limited 
to just a couple of lines pasting at any one time.  This is new as of yesterday.

- Mark
Thanks for the pointer about the updated code. My reaction? Well, I'll 
be... wow! I've been an off and on user over the last several years and 
yesterday, this vexing problem is fixed? - surreal. This is a huge 
improvement and will make it easier to copy and paste. However, at least 
on my macbook, when I cat a file with tabs in it and copy and paste that 
file, terminal converts the tabs to spaces. I confirmed this using:


cat /usr/source/s1/exit.c | od -c and observing the presence of \t in 
the output. If I then cat the file to stdout and copy that into the 
copy/paste buffer and do cat > myexit.c pasting it back in and cat that 
to od -c, the \t is now a space.


Any ideas on how to preserve the tabs?

Thanks,

Will
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Re: [Simh] transferring files to and from v6 unix running in pdp11 emulator

2015-11-20 Thread Mark Pizzolato
On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Will Senn wrote:
> > On 11/20/15 10:51 AM, Anders Magnusson wrote:
> > Den 2015-11-20 kl. 17:35, skrev Will Senn:
> >> I have searched and searched and have not found a satisfactory answer
> >> to this question:
> >>
> >> How can I efficiently copy files from my host system to unix version
> >> 6 running in the pdp11 emulator and from unix 6 to my host system?
> > I usually do this by just tar'ing to/from a disk file, something like:
> >
> > on pdp11: tar cf /dev/rxp0c myfiles
> > on host: tar xf simh-disk-file
> >
> > Works both ways :-)
> >
> > -- Ragge
>
> This sounded promising, but as it turns out there appear to be 2
> problems... 1. v6 doesn't have tar, and 2. it looks like v6 doesn't have
> rx device support (floppies). Are you using v6 with tweaks, or v7, or
> some other variant of unix?

Well, the tar approach is certainly the most elegant and if tar was available, 
converting a raw tar file to a simh tape image back and forth is quite trivial 
if you've got a tape device...

So you may be reduced to cutting from the terminal session you are running the 
simulator in to get data from the simulator to the host (or the lpt approach 
you mentioned).

If you try the latest code at github.com/simh/simh, pasting into the console 
terminal or any other supported terminal will now work and you won't be limited 
to just a couple of lines pasting at any one time.  This is new as of yesterday.

- Mark
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Re: [Simh] {Spam?} transferring files to and from v6 unix running in pdp11 emulator

2015-11-20 Thread Anders Magnusson

Den 2015-11-20 kl. 20:12, skrev Will Senn:



On 11/20/15 10:51 AM, Anders Magnusson wrote:

Den 2015-11-20 kl. 17:35, skrev Will Senn:

Hi,

I have searched and searched and have not found a satisfactory 
answer to this question:


How can I efficiently copy files from my host system to unix version 
6 running in the pdp11 emulator and from unix 6 to my host system?

I usually do this by just tar'ing to/from a disk file, something like:

on pdp11: tar cf /dev/rxp0c myfiles
on host: tar xf simh-disk-file

Works both ways :-)

-- Ragge

Hi,

This sounded promising, but as it turns out there appear to be 2 
problems... 1. v6 doesn't have tar, and 2. it looks like v6 doesn't 
have rx device support (floppies). Are you using v6 with tweaks, or 
v7, or some other variant of unix?

Hm, it was some time ago, but I think it was tar.  Otherwise try cpio?
You do not have to use floppies.  rxp is the raw device for rp disks 
(avoids caching).  Just work against that file.


-- Ragge

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Re: [Simh] {Spam?} transferring files to and from v6 unix running in pdp11 emulator

2015-11-20 Thread Will Senn



On 11/20/15 10:51 AM, Anders Magnusson wrote:

Den 2015-11-20 kl. 17:35, skrev Will Senn:

Hi,

I have searched and searched and have not found a satisfactory answer 
to this question:


How can I efficiently copy files from my host system to unix version 
6 running in the pdp11 emulator and from unix 6 to my host system?

I usually do this by just tar'ing to/from a disk file, something like:

on pdp11: tar cf /dev/rxp0c myfiles
on host: tar xf simh-disk-file

Works both ways :-)

-- Ragge

Hi,

This sounded promising, but as it turns out there appear to be 2 
problems... 1. v6 doesn't have tar, and 2. it looks like v6 doesn't have 
rx device support (floppies). Are you using v6 with tweaks, or v7, or 
some other variant of unix?


Thanks,

Will
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Re: [Simh] {Spam?} transferring files to and from v6 unix running in pdp11 emulator

2015-11-20 Thread Anders Magnusson

Den 2015-11-20 kl. 17:35, skrev Will Senn:

Hi,

I have searched and searched and have not found a satisfactory answer 
to this question:


How can I efficiently copy files from my host system to unix version 6 
running in the pdp11 emulator and from unix 6 to my host system?

I usually do this by just tar'ing to/from a disk file, something like:

on pdp11: tar cf /dev/rxp0c myfiles
on host: tar xf simh-disk-file

Works both ways :-)

-- Ragge


Most answers are shallow (copy/paste in terminal), or oriented toward 
RTS or another environment than unix. So, I thought I would articulate 
some of the ideas that I have tried and then ask some relevant 
questions in the hopes that the someone will shed some light on the 
problem, if not provide the answers.


My system is one of:
Debian 8 running on Intel Core 2 Quad Processor
FreeBSD 10.2 running on same
Macbook Pro running on Intel i7
Various Linuxes running in Virtualbox 5.x

Here are the methods I have found that work, sort of...

Unix on PDP11 SimH to Host:
1. cat file and copy and paste from terminal
This only works for pure text files and is not ideal

2. setup lpt in simh attached to printer.txt and cat file > /dev/lp0
This only works for textual output, but includes form feed characters 
and has formatting applied on its way to printer.txt


3. attach a blank tape tm0 to simh and dd if=myfile of=/dev/rmt0, then 
on the host deblock the tape and dd if=tapefile of=myfile
This seems to work, but I'm not sure it's ok to do this. It doesn't 
appear to work as well in the other direction.


Host to Unix v6 on PDP11 SimH:
1. copy a file into the copy buffer on the host and in the unix 
terminal window, paste the text.
Wow, this is tricky. It seems like you can only paste a few lines at a 
time. It does strange things if your text contains special characters 
like #, @, (, and so forth, which makes it pretty annoying as 
practically every file of interest is c source or something. However, 
with patience this does sort of work, but it's just for text files.


2. use Wolfgang's enblock - enblock < myfile > myfile.enb and then 
attach to tm0 in simh and dd if=/dev/rmt0 of=myfile
This is problematic, resulting in read errors and when diff'ed against 
files on the simh unix instance, produces errors about incomplete 
lines.  I am fairly sure that there is a good reason why it sort of 
works, but not fully. i.e. The resulting file is 99% ok.


Ideally, I would be able to tar up some files and convert the tar to a 
storage format that unix v6 could then access and untar. One problem 
is that v6 doesn't have tar. So, maybe ar could be used, or tp, or 
whatever other command is available on v6. Regardless, the underlying 
issue is that a file needs to be converted to a storage format that 
unix v6 can handle. This leads to the questions.


* I don't have a deep knowledge of storage formats, so it may be that 
what I'm asking isn't feasible, if someone could share the why along 
with the how or how not, that would be great.


1. Is there a simple, known, way to convert a single file, or multiple 
files at once, on a *nix host to a tape image that can be read by simh 
and unix v6? Perhaps something along the lines of - on the host, 
convert_util myfile tape.simh; in simh, attach tm0 tape.simh; on unix, 
dd if=/dev/mt0 of=myfile


2. Is it appropriate to read directly from a simulated tape device 
using dd, or is dd going to read the tape marks (whatever those are) 
as part of the file data?


3. Is the tape device the best to use for something like this, or 
would another device be more straightforward?


Grateful for any assistance,

Will

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[Simh] transferring files to and from v6 unix running in pdp11 emulator

2015-11-20 Thread Will Senn

Hi,

I have searched and searched and have not found a satisfactory answer to 
this question:


How can I efficiently copy files from my host system to unix version 6 
running in the pdp11 emulator and from unix 6 to my host system?


Most answers are shallow (copy/paste in terminal), or oriented toward 
RTS or another environment than unix. So, I thought I would articulate 
some of the ideas that I have tried and then ask some relevant questions 
in the hopes that the someone will shed some light on the problem, if 
not provide the answers.


My system is one of:
Debian 8 running on Intel Core 2 Quad Processor
FreeBSD 10.2 running on same
Macbook Pro running on Intel i7
Various Linuxes running in Virtualbox 5.x

Here are the methods I have found that work, sort of...

Unix on PDP11 SimH to Host:
1. cat file and copy and paste from terminal
This only works for pure text files and is not ideal

2. setup lpt in simh attached to printer.txt and cat file > /dev/lp0
This only works for textual output, but includes form feed characters 
and has formatting applied on its way to printer.txt


3. attach a blank tape tm0 to simh and dd if=myfile of=/dev/rmt0, then 
on the host deblock the tape and dd if=tapefile of=myfile
This seems to work, but I'm not sure it's ok to do this. It doesn't 
appear to work as well in the other direction.


Host to Unix v6 on PDP11 SimH:
1. copy a file into the copy buffer on the host and in the unix terminal 
window, paste the text.
Wow, this is tricky. It seems like you can only paste a few lines at a 
time. It does strange things if your text contains special characters 
like #, @, (, and so forth, which makes it pretty annoying as 
practically every file of interest is c source or something. However, 
with patience this does sort of work, but it's just for text files.


2. use Wolfgang's enblock - enblock < myfile > myfile.enb and then 
attach to tm0 in simh and dd if=/dev/rmt0 of=myfile
This is problematic, resulting in read errors and when diff'ed against 
files on the simh unix instance, produces errors about incomplete 
lines.  I am fairly sure that there is a good reason why it sort of 
works, but not fully. i.e. The resulting file is 99% ok.


Ideally, I would be able to tar up some files and convert the tar to a 
storage format that unix v6 could then access and untar. One problem is 
that v6 doesn't have tar. So, maybe ar could be used, or tp, or whatever 
other command is available on v6. Regardless, the underlying issue is 
that a file needs to be converted to a storage format that unix v6 can 
handle. This leads to the questions.


* I don't have a deep knowledge of storage formats, so it may be that 
what I'm asking isn't feasible, if someone could share the why along 
with the how or how not, that would be great.


1. Is there a simple, known, way to convert a single file, or multiple 
files at once, on a *nix host to a tape image that can be read by simh 
and unix v6? Perhaps something along the lines of - on the host, 
convert_util myfile tape.simh; in simh, attach tm0 tape.simh; on unix, 
dd if=/dev/mt0 of=myfile


2. Is it appropriate to read directly from a simulated tape device using 
dd, or is dd going to read the tape marks (whatever those are) as part 
of the file data?


3. Is the tape device the best to use for something like this, or would 
another device be more straightforward?


Grateful for any assistance,

Will

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