Re: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future?
On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 23:27:28 -0800 Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm wrote: > On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 11:16 PM, li...@openmailbox.org wrote: > > On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 13:34:51 -0800 > > Sergey Oboguev wrote: > > > > > My comment was is not about Intel vs. non-Intel, but about having > > > 64-bit as a native type in host machine instructions and leveraged by > > > the compiler, rather than simulated by 32-bit host operations. > > > > I thought there was no direct way to do math on 64 bit integers in 32 > > bit Intel and simulation by 32 bit host operations (add, adc) would be > > required, as opposed to other platforms which (I believe) have > > instructions for 64 bit integer math even in 32 bit mode (i.e. SPARC). > > That is exactly Sergey's point. Running a 64bit simulator on a 32bit > Intel platform (even with a compiler which has 64bit types) will be > significantly slower than running a simulator compiled for a 64bit host. I understood that it applied to Intel. I just didn't remember it also applies to some (most?) other 32 bit platforms. Even so, there is a big difference between being "significantly slower" and "not supported at all" and that was the point of my question/discussion. Today Alpha emulation is not supported at all on 32 bit Linux AFAIK. QEMU is horribly slow but it is still valuable because it supports a lot of machines pretty well. Hmm, now that I think of it I need to check if qemu-alpha will run OpenVMS Alpha. If anybody knows one way or the other and it's not too far off-topic please update us. Anyway, if SIMH could support an Alpha machine capable of running OpenVMS and would build and run on 32 bit Linux and everywhere else it builds today I don't think anyone would complain about the performance. Either you run it on a 64 bit host and get the best performance you can given the software or you run it on a 32 bit host for whatever reason and accept that it runs slower than it would on a 64 bit host. But that is much better than having no choice at all for 32 bit Linux which is where we are now unless qemu-alpha is there already. ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future?
On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 11:16 PM, li...@openmailbox.org wrote: > On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 13:34:51 -0800 > Sergey Oboguev wrote: > > > My comment was is not about Intel vs. non-Intel, but about having 64-bit > > as a native type in host machine instructions and leveraged by the > > compiler, rather than simulated by 32-bit host operations. > > I thought there was no direct way to do math on 64 bit integers in 32 bit > Intel and simulation by 32 bit host operations (add, adc) would be > required, as opposed to other platforms which (I believe) have instructions > for 64 bit integer math even in 32 bit mode (i.e. SPARC). That is exactly Sergey's point. Running a 64bit simulator on a 32bit Intel platform (even with a compiler which has 64bit types) will be significantly slower than running a simulator compiled for a 64bit host. - Mark ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future?
On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 13:34:51 -0800 Sergey Oboguev wrote: > My comment was is not about Intel vs. non-Intel, but about having 64-bit > as a native type in host machine instructions and leveraged by the > compiler, rather than simulated by 32-bit host operations. I thought there was no direct way to do math on 64 bit integers in 32 bit Intel and simulation by 32 bit host operations (add, adc) would be required, as opposed to other platforms which (I believe) have instructions for 64 bit integer math even in 32 bit mode (i.e. SPARC). > Just consider how let us say LDQ or ADDQ would actually be implemented > in each of the respective cases. Looking further MIPS seems to have the same limitation as Intel so I must have remembered this wrong and SPARC is the exception rather than the rule. Sorry for the tangent. > > > From: "li...@openmailbox.org" > To: "Simh@trailing-edge.com" > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 12:56 PM > Subject: Re: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future? > > > Hi, > > I don't understand (a) unless this is referring specially to Intel. For > (b) I didn't imagine needing so much memory for a guest. > > Right now I'm running SIMH on a MIPS III (64 bit) box under OpenBSD and on > Solaris SPARC (sun4u). SIMH builds and runs on everything I have. I don't > use Windows and my Linux box is 32 bit for a few things that don't run > elsewhere. From my view it would be fantastic to have SIMH support an > Alpha emulator because SIMH doesn't require particular hosts. > > > On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 12:44:03 -0800 > Sergey Oboguev wrote: > > > The downside of running a 32-bit version of virtually any AXP simulator > > is that it is bound to be 2-3 times slower than 64-bit version, due to > > > > (a) simulation of AXP 64-bit operations on top of 32-bit host > > operations, > > > > (b) indirect access to guest memory when it is sized above 2 GB or so > > assuming such an access is implemented at all. > > > > The only exception to (a) would be a 64-bit simulator squeezed into > > 32-bit environment running on 64-bit machine, but this is hardly worth > > the effort. > > ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future?
My comment was is not about Intel vs. non-Intel, but about having 64-bit as a native type in host machine instructions and leveraged by the compiler, rather than simulated by 32-bit host operations. Just consider how let us say LDQ or ADDQ would actually be implemented in each of the respective cases. From: "li...@openmailbox.org" To: "Simh@trailing-edge.com" Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future? Hi, I don't understand (a) unless this is referring specially to Intel. For (b) I didn't imagine needing so much memory for a guest. Right now I'm running SIMH on a MIPS III (64 bit) box under OpenBSD and on Solaris SPARC (sun4u). SIMH builds and runs on everything I have. I don't use Windows and my Linux box is 32 bit for a few things that don't run elsewhere. From my view it would be fantastic to have SIMH support an Alpha emulator because SIMH doesn't require particular hosts. On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 12:44:03 -0800 Sergey Oboguev wrote: > The downside of running a 32-bit version of virtually any AXP simulator > is that it is bound to be 2-3 times slower than 64-bit version, due to > > (a) simulation of AXP 64-bit operations on top of 32-bit host operations, > > (b) indirect access to guest memory when it is sized above 2 GB or so > assuming such an access is implemented at all. > > The only exception to (a) would be a 64-bit simulator squeezed into 32-bit > environment running on 64-bit machine, but this is hardly worth the > effort. > > > - Original Message - > From: "li...@openmailbox.org" > To: "Simh@trailing-edge.com" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 9:25 AM > Subject: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future? > > Is an Alpha machine capable of running OpenVMS in SIMH's future? I know > there are several Alpha emulators for Linux and Windows but I really like > SIMH since it runs on pretty much any UNIX-like OS and doesn't depend on > having a 64-bit Linux installed. > > Thank you for SIMH. > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future?
> How did this get to be a discussion about running a 32bit simulator of a > 64bit machine? It is not a discussion, rather an observation to a person who wished to run AXP simulation without "having a 64-bit Linux installed". - Original Message - From: Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm To: Sergey Oboguev ; "li...@openmailbox.org" ; "Simh@trailing-edge.com" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 12:55 PM Subject: RE: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future? On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Serge Oboguev wrote: > The downside of running a 32-bit version of virtually any AXP simulator is > that it is bound to be 2-3 times slower than 64-bit version, due to > > (a) simulation of AXP 64-bit operations on top of 32-bit host operations, > > (b) indirect access to guest memory when it is sized above 2 GB or so > assuming such an access is implemented at all. > > The only exception to (a) would be a 64-bit simulator squeezed into 32-bit > environment running on 64-bit machine, but this is hardly worth the effort. How did this get to be a discussion about running a 32bit simulator of a 64bit machine? The ONLY requirement that the simh framework would require to implement a AXP simulator would be that the host machine have 64bit integer support. Certainly if large memory was to be simulated (as would only be reasonable with an AXP simulator) then things would have to run on an 64bit capable host with a 64bit OS compiled as a 64bit binary. The existing makefile will compile simulators with the default compiler available on the host (gcc) or any other compiler which is explicitly requested by GCC=othercompiler on the make command line. If the host system is native 64bit and the compiler is native 64bit then the resulting simulator will be fully capable of providing memory beyond 4GB. Nothing special needs to be done. There already are other simulators which require 64bit integer support. - Mark > - Original Message - > From: "li...@openmailbox.org" > To: "Simh@trailing-edge.com" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 9:25 AM > Subject: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future? > > Is an Alpha machine capable of running OpenVMS in SIMH's future? I know > there are several Alpha emulators for Linux and Windows but I really like > SIMH since it runs on pretty much any UNIX-like OS and doesn't depend on > having a 64-bit Linux installed. > > Thank you for SIMH. > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future?
Hi, I don't understand (a) unless this is referring specially to Intel. For (b) I didn't imagine needing so much memory for a guest. Right now I'm running SIMH on a MIPS III (64 bit) box under OpenBSD and on Solaris SPARC (sun4u). SIMH builds and runs on everything I have. I don't use Windows and my Linux box is 32 bit for a few things that don't run elsewhere. From my view it would be fantastic to have SIMH support an Alpha emulator because SIMH doesn't require particular hosts. On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 12:44:03 -0800 Sergey Oboguev wrote: > The downside of running a 32-bit version of virtually any AXP simulator > is that it is bound to be 2-3 times slower than 64-bit version, due to > > (a) simulation of AXP 64-bit operations on top of 32-bit host operations, > > (b) indirect access to guest memory when it is sized above 2 GB or so > assuming such an access is implemented at all. > > The only exception to (a) would be a 64-bit simulator squeezed into 32-bit > environment running on 64-bit machine, but this is hardly worth the > effort. > > > - Original Message - > From: "li...@openmailbox.org" > To: "Simh@trailing-edge.com" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 9:25 AM > Subject: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future? > > Is an Alpha machine capable of running OpenVMS in SIMH's future? I know > there are several Alpha emulators for Linux and Windows but I really like > SIMH since it runs on pretty much any UNIX-like OS and doesn't depend on > having a 64-bit Linux installed. > > Thank you for SIMH. > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future?
On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Serge Oboguev wrote: > The downside of running a 32-bit version of virtually any AXP simulator is > that it is bound to be 2-3 times slower than 64-bit version, due to > > (a) simulation of AXP 64-bit operations on top of 32-bit host operations, > > (b) indirect access to guest memory when it is sized above 2 GB or so > assuming such an access is implemented at all. > > The only exception to (a) would be a 64-bit simulator squeezed into 32-bit > environment running on 64-bit machine, but this is hardly worth the effort. How did this get to be a discussion about running a 32bit simulator of a 64bit machine? The ONLY requirement that the simh framework would require to implement a AXP simulator would be that the host machine have 64bit integer support. Certainly if large memory was to be simulated (as would only be reasonable with an AXP simulator) then things would have to run on an 64bit capable host with a 64bit OS compiled as a 64bit binary. The existing makefile will compile simulators with the default compiler available on the host (gcc) or any other compiler which is explicitly requested by GCC=othercompiler on the make command line. If the host system is native 64bit and the compiler is native 64bit then the resulting simulator will be fully capable of providing memory beyond 4GB. Nothing special needs to be done. There already are other simulators which require 64bit integer support. - Mark > - Original Message - > From: "li...@openmailbox.org" > To: "Simh@trailing-edge.com" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 9:25 AM > Subject: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future? > > Is an Alpha machine capable of running OpenVMS in SIMH's future? I know > there are several Alpha emulators for Linux and Windows but I really like > SIMH since it runs on pretty much any UNIX-like OS and doesn't depend on > having a 64-bit Linux installed. > > Thank you for SIMH. > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future?
The downside of running a 32-bit version of virtually any AXP simulator is that it is bound to be 2-3 times slower than 64-bit version, due to (a) simulation of AXP 64-bit operations on top of 32-bit host operations, (b) indirect access to guest memory when it is sized above 2 GB or so assuming such an access is implemented at all. The only exception to (a) would be a 64-bit simulator squeezed into 32-bit environment running on 64-bit machine, but this is hardly worth the effort. - Original Message - From: "li...@openmailbox.org" To: "Simh@trailing-edge.com" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2015 9:25 AM Subject: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future? Is an Alpha machine capable of running OpenVMS in SIMH's future? I know there are several Alpha emulators for Linux and Windows but I really like SIMH since it runs on pretty much any UNIX-like OS and doesn't depend on having a 64-bit Linux installed. Thank you for SIMH. ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future?
- Original Message - From: To: Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 1:03 PM Subject: Re: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future? On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 09:31:58 -0800 Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm wrote: On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 9:26 AM, li...@openmailbox.org wrote: > Is an Alpha machine capable of running OpenVMS in SIMH's future? I know > there are several Alpha emulators for Linux and Windows but I really > like SIMH since it runs on pretty much any UNIX-like OS and doesn't > depend on having a 64-bit Linux installed. Well, Bob implemented the guts of an Alpha simulator and that code is in the current github repository. Bob classified this simulator in the 'beta' category, with beta, in this case, meaning 'a simulator which hasn't been finished'. If someone has the ability and interest to get this simulator fully working, I'll be here to support those activities. I wish I could help but sadly I can't since C and I don't get along. Thanks for the update. C's been rough to me too. But I keep trying. It and 16 bit assembly I will eventually master :) Bill ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future?
On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 09:31:58 -0800 Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm wrote: > On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 9:26 AM, li...@openmailbox.org wrote: > > Is an Alpha machine capable of running OpenVMS in SIMH's future? I know > > there are several Alpha emulators for Linux and Windows but I really > > like SIMH since it runs on pretty much any UNIX-like OS and doesn't > > depend on having a 64-bit Linux installed. > > Well, Bob implemented the guts of an Alpha simulator and that code is in > the current github repository. > > Bob classified this simulator in the 'beta' category, with beta, in this > case, meaning 'a simulator which hasn't been finished'. > > If someone has the ability and interest to get this simulator fully > working, I'll be here to support those activities. I wish I could help but sadly I can't since C and I don't get along. Thanks for the update. ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future?
On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 9:26 AM, li...@openmailbox.org wrote: > Is an Alpha machine capable of running OpenVMS in SIMH's future? I know > there are several Alpha emulators for Linux and Windows but I really like > SIMH since it runs on pretty much any UNIX-like OS and doesn't depend on > having a 64-bit Linux installed. Well, Bob implemented the guts of an Alpha simulator and that code is in the current github repository. Bob classified this simulator in the 'beta' category, with beta, in this case, meaning 'a simulator which hasn't been finished'. If someone has the ability and interest to get this simulator fully working, I'll be here to support those activities. - Mark ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
[Simh] Is Alpha AXP in SIMH's future?
Is an Alpha machine capable of running OpenVMS in SIMH's future? I know there are several Alpha emulators for Linux and Windows but I really like SIMH since it runs on pretty much any UNIX-like OS and doesn't depend on having a 64-bit Linux installed. Thank you for SIMH. ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
